Logistics issue in traveling to FSU

[groovlstk]

One reason that might make one think twice about Russia: my wife has several Russian friends here in California and they all seem to be in love with Putin.  They can't seem to accept that he is tried and true "chekist" who wants to rekindle the cold war and revert to the old ways of ruling by intimidation and fear - ask the Russian journalists..those who are still alive.

My wife dislikes Putin, but when I was searching, "do you like Putin?" wasn't near the top of my list of questions to girls I dated. In fact it wasn't even on the list. Nor, when I was in Ukraine, was blue vs. orange. (Besides, what difference would it make when the same corrupt blue and orange government officials have been leading Ukraine for more than a decade? They simply reshuffle the deck every few years.)

There are some Russian women on RWD who sadly think Ukrainian women are inferior and will be glad to blow this thread up if you continue your foolish, Russophobic rants.

[Ronnie]

Excuse me..  I like Russians...very much in fact.   Having said that, can you deny that living with a pro-Putin, ergo anti-American wife is a desirable condition?  Maybe one can work with it but if you can avoid that irritation in your marriage, why is that foolish?  Seems to me, I'm fortunate that my wife wants to be American.  She says she never felt the FSU was her true identity. 

[Shadow]

Shadow,
As a travel agent, I assist people in getting a visa for Russia.  It's more of a hassle for Americans than for others since Russia (Putin) wants to retaliate for our asking security questions on our application so we have added questions we must answer and I expect we pay more of a fee than you plus photos and shipping costs.
No visa for Ukraine. 

For me visa for Russia is $75 if not rushed, as I like to take last-minute decsions I have paid $150 more than once.
As far as hassle goes, I have found that ther is no more hassle than fulfilling the requirements on the form.
My epxerience with the St Petersburg hotel was with an American base invitation and a Moscow based registration.
I actually expected to get taken out of line and pay some 'extra fees' but nothing happened. Luck or perhaps having all other papers in order.

Rwgrding Ukraine my Moscovite wife has had too many bad encounters, although my peronsal encounters showed otherwise.
As for politics...hey its not like any of those guys that are the 'faces' have a choice

[Ronnie]

Oh, that's right Shadow, I forgot about the reguirement and cost of "registering" in every Russian city you visit.  I got shaken down by a cop in Moscow over it...he wanted me to pay him a 5,000 Ruble "fine"... I gave him 500 instead.

There seem to be similarities between the way Moscovites look at Ukraine (and non-Moscow Russia) and the way New Yorkers look at the rest of America. 

Again this thread is about logistics and our opinions thereon...
I don't recommend that Moscow, Petr or even Kiev be the focus of one's search.  Others may disagree and that's fine.

If any RW wants to shut down this thread because viewpoints don't match hers then that alone should serve as an object lesson.

[Shadow]

The cops that I met have always been helpful...but then I looked more a Russian as most guys do due to the clever disguise which I received from my father-in-law.
The outlook of Muscovites is a general problem. check the opinions on  'latino immigrants' in a lot of parts of the US, or the opinions on Moroccans in my country and you will get the same outlook. the reason is clear. Immigrants mostly move for economic motives, and those who move are not the ones with good education and prospects in their home countries, a few exceptions not included.
There for they cause a relatively high percentage of trouble and get a bad reputation, that will come down on all the population of the country. Its not to blame the RW, the Ukrainians, the Mexicans, the US natives, the Moroccans or the Dutch for it. Its a natural situation that happens in many places in this world. Malaysians and Chinese sprinng to mind as another example.

I would recommend the big cities over villages, as in my opinion the less impressed people are with foreigners and the less they dream of a wealthy life that is beyond their reach, the better chances are that the woman marries you for love and not your wallet. But knowing some FSUW from different areas and countries, the good ones will never be impressed by anything else but your soul, and the bad ones will do whatever it takes to get in to your wallet.

[SANDRO43]

If you need a primer on train travel I'm sure we have enough of us who can write a primer on the subject if there's not already one in the archives.

Why don't you get together and produce one for the RWDpedia ?

[chernoble]

Wow thanks for the info guys.  I'll definitely check it out and see if I can find agencies in the cities I am planning on.  I'm not too comfortable going to the smaller cities b/c I know there will be far less English services or local officials who understand English compared to Moscow or Leningrad.  Its too bad there can't be any chance encounters on the street with some nice girl (I'm kind of a romanticist that way) but I'll definitely have to follow up the agencies as a guide to the local culture.  Still its going to be a wait and see plan for me because right now I am still in the beginning stages of correspondence with the girls I am talking to now.  If it goes somewhere I am definitely going to focus on her home city where ever it is and pray I don't get "lost in translation" with Ya ne ponedelnik my best explanation 

Btw I see how much it costs for a visa both expedited and normal service but what about plane tickets?  I'm thinking of this summer in August or Sept but I wonder how much time do you generally need to reserve plane tickets?  Are they sold out if you try buying them close to their departure date?  Do you need to give a 1 month notice or can it be done at the last minute like 1 week or so to buy plane tickets for the date you want to Russia/Ukraine? 

[I/O]

Also contact Elena's and ask them who is the local agency for the cities that you would be interested in. You can then contact them directly (hopefully Elena's would give you that information) and you can get more information from them.

FWIW,
 Ken

Ken, nothing wrong with the logic here, but I have reservations and I'll tell you for why. I was in Bacau / Romania a couple of times (Via my work) a while back and time allowed me to meet a few people. Someone knew someone who knew her and she had met him and he came from America and blah blah. She ended up being invited among another group to a dinner when the story all came out, their meeting had been set up via Elena's local agent.

It wasn't pretty.........Some of these agents who subcontract to Elena's are simply lone wolf subbies out there to turn a quick commission. Disclaimer: As I understand it, they get something for initial listings and some ongoing fees. Once they get Mr Westerner on the ground, (in this example) he was upstairs in his hotel room, the lady was left waiting in the lobby whilst agent goes up and extracts his $100 meeting fee, then and only then is the girl sent up to the room........no thought of bringing the guy down to the lobby.

The lady related this story to a group of us over dinner and she remarked she had never been made to feel more like a hooker in her life. She simply felt sick by the time she met the man, whom incidentally she thought was a decent guy, but she admitted she was so upset by the whole experience that it didn't get past first dinner and she really thought that was neither of their faults.

I did a bit of homework later and it is interesting to do a Bacau location search (As an example) on Elena's. You'll see a familiar apartment scene and a trend in the style of photos with a large number of the women from around that area. The agent guy is a meat marketer and frankly I think he is doing all involved something of a disservice, although technically he is doing nothing wrong. Kinda devalues the "Confirmed Profile" thing in my eyes, because to me, the guy is simply doing the rounds of the clubs etc and talking the girls into listing, no skin off his nose and probably a good sideline for him.

Elena's has a fairly strong (Comparatively speaking) integrity chain, but a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. In this example, IMO, that is the on the ground talent scout.

FWIW

I/O

[Daveman]

... Its too bad there can't be any chance encounters on the street with some nice girl (I'm kind of a romanticist that way) ...

Au contraire mon frère!  If  you aren't shy, and get a little Russian under your belt, you can initiate more chance encounters than you would believe. However, there probably won't be many who will be able to communicate freely with you and vice versa.  Therein lies the problem.  Fun - yes... interesting - extremely... maximizing your time in meeting real relationship material - no.

Summer is the peak travel season and ticket prices will be higher.  If you're not planning to go until late summer/early autumn, wait until autumn fully sets in and the prices will drop again - for everything. 

Catz: Everything is great down in Gritsland  I hope Forever Winter Land is bringing you and the Red Haired Princess quite the adventure!

Shadow: Oh yeah.. there are some BABES in this area. We call them Georgia Peaches. Not that many in down town Atlanta, but get out into the surrounding cities/areas and there are masses of them.  When were you here?  If you come here on business often, send me a message before you head back this way.  I'll take you to some seriously interesting places with no Peaches (just in case the other half is reading)  ... I sometimes wonder why I think the grass is greener elsewhere looking around here and seeing what's available... and then one opens her mouth and starts gabbing and I remember quickly. 

Dave

[catzenmouse]

Also FWIW, I do not and would not recommend Elena's service. To me it is just a warehouse with lots of small rooms that the management knows nothing about. I only mentioned contacting the local agent as Chernoble seemed to already be locked into using their service.

The story about the local agent does not surprise me a bit.

If Chernoble wants a reputable agency he should contact Bill at Lviv Brides for Ukraine or Richard at Tver Angels for Russia.

Dave,

 Gritsland huh? LOL! Up here you can get cheese curds at the restaurant. Haven't been brave enough to try it yet.

[Blues Fairy]

pro-Putin, ergo anti-American

It's like saying pro-chocolate, ergo anti-sex.

Approval of Putin and acceptance of USA are not entirely incompatible things, you know.  Some women like Putin for reasons quite disconnected with politics.

NB: I personally do NOT approve of Putin.  But I like chocolate. 

[Daveman]

It's like saying pro-chocolate, ergo anti-sex.

Now, if one buys chocolate syrup off a certain online auction.. that should.... oh never mind..


Well, if the lady likes Putin, I don't really care as long I don't have to listen to a bunch of nonsense.   Putin does bring to Russian people a perception of "status" in the world similar to that of the Soviet era.. we can debate that point all day long... but that 'status' thing seems to reappear in many areas of life there. I think that is not a coincidence.

[Faux Pas]

Also FWIW, I do not and would not recommend Elena's service. To me it is just a warehouse with lots of small rooms that the management knows nothing about.

Not to step on any toes but personally I think Elena's is a great place to start. I can only say this because I "started" at quite a few places and consequently ran into quite a few brick walls. Elena's isn't on the cheap but it is quite reasonable and I did not encounter one  single scam yet I did converse with many RW. Most of whom were earnest in their search as I was with mine. I was connected with many more than I anticipated. Elena's was real and not the letter Mill that were some of the others.

[chivo]

Oh, that's right Shadow, I forgot about the reguirement and cost of "registering" in every Russian city you visit.  I got shaken down by a cop in Moscow over it...he wanted me to pay him a 5,000 Ruble "fine"... I gave him 500 instead.

There seem to be similarities between the way Moscovites look at Ukraine (and non-Moscow Russia) and the way New Yorkers look at the rest of America. 

Again this thread is about logistics and our opinions thereon...
I don't recommend that Moscow, Petr or even Kiev be the focus of one's search.  Others may disagree and that's fine.

This is simply not true about the visa's. If its a hassle now, its for the foreigners who live in Russia on business visas.

My visa is free to register and I travel around Russia with it no problem, as long as its registered. The police give me no problem here regarding my visa. They shook you down probably knowing that you're an American who "obeys" the law and doesn't know the laws here or know how things work in Russia.

BTW you can stay in Moscow 3 days without registering "legally" if you come from another city, and really how would they know when you arrived from another city in Russia as the stamps are when you enter Russia and the registration is for the duration of your stay. 500 is/was way to much to pay for this. 

Also Moscow should be on anyone's application as a city you will visit in Russia regardless if you do or not. Keep in mind too that your registration address will be that of your sponsor (invitation), NOT where you're staying unless that IS your sponsor. Usually this is not the case, and if it is it doesn't matter, but the police will try to use this as a reason to get money. This is also another of many reasons why apartments are better than hotels.

Oh they will scare you and threaten you, but in reality they're just hoping you'll fall for it. Believe me the last thing they want to do is the paperwork involved if it gets that far (and it wont). Its happened to me a few times. Police do this one way or the other (play on your naivety about the law) everywhere in an attempt to generate money.

I mean what do you think would happen if you refuse to pay them? let me tell you...NOTHING. You think they're going to put you in jail? Or maybe deport you . Please stop scaring people into thinking this is some big bad place.

Fortunately or unfortunately Russia is anything but textbook.

Also, about Moscow. I remember before I moved here about all the stories I heard about Moscow is this, or Moscow is that, from everyone including the Russians I knew in America. All of it was negative.

I've found much of it to be hearsay. Personally, I think most of it comes from negative emotions such as envy, jealousy, etc. Sure they are some Muscovites who acts this way, just like they do in other big cities with their "high society" attitudes (hell I worked in Hollywood for 2 years, you want to meet people who think they're better than you, that is the mecca).

Some of the nicest, sweetest, genuine people I've ever met live here, and most of my experiences here have all but been contrary to what I heard before I moved here. And believe me I've met all kinds here.

Moscow, Russia for that matter, doesn't work in black and white. If you understand this, things will be less of a hassle here, and you will be much less likely to be taken by anyone, including the police...period.

the visa is a mere hiccup, please don't make it out to be anything more. Good luck.

chivo

ps as far as Putin goes, I know many here who privately criticize him as well as many who love him.

[BC]

I heard a few times, even from my wife that the visa registration process has been changed fairly recently in RU.  If so, recent experiences might be a good resource for adding a RWDpedia or FAQ article.

[chivo]

I heard a few times, even from my wife that the visa registration process has been changed fairly recently in RU.  If so, recent experiences might be a good resource for adding a RWDpedia or FAQ article.

Its true BC. The only problem is that it continues, and if history serves,  will continue to change from time to time , and the information can become outdated within months if not sooner. Not to mention that the registration seems to vary from place to place.

What I would suggest to anyone is to find a reputable company that offers registration for free (easy to find), and one that has offices in Moscow (also easy to find), and get your registration there.

one thing that remains is after you have it registered (just once is all you need) you can travel around Russia relatively free of problems.
Good luck.

chivo

[mev]

one thing that remains is after you have it registered (just once is all you need) you can travel around Russia relatively free of problems.

I will add one data point here about registration/visas.  In 2007, I spent five months in Russia.  Not for romantic interest, but to bicycle across the country.  I had a one year multiple entry business visa that I got without trouble from www.waytorussia.net (visa rules recently changed to allow only 90 of every 180 days but I entered before those changes).  When applying for visas, I was told "Samara is a restricted city, do you have a hotel reservation?"  My response was "please take Samara off the list of cities I am visiting".

Entering Russia was easy.  I did it once at Kaliningrad and once from Estonia.  My passport and visa were checked and I was given a "migration card".  The migration card contained my departure date (plus some contingency) and stayed in my passport.  Unlike a 2006 trip to Russia, there were never any stamps actually placed on the migration card (visa rules changed in January 2007 to not put the stamps on the migration card, but instead separate paperwork submitted).

I camped in the countryside and stayed in hotels in the larger cities.  I made sure to register the first night in Russia and otherwise I tried to register where I could.  I had "homestays" in St Petersburg and Vladivostok and hotels elsewhere e.g. Kazan, Yekaterinburg, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, Ulan Ude, Chita, Vladivostok... I tried to register at the hotels.  There seemed to be some variation there.  Some places would complete the registration form and give me a copy.  Others would just fill out the form.  I suspect yet others never registered me at all.  In Vladivostok was the hotel that was most picky.  They wanted to see my other registrations.  I showed them a mixture of hotel receipts/registrations.  They rejected some as not having proper stamps or being receipts not registrations but I had enough to pass muster.  I finished in Vladivostok with 9 days of "homestay" and I paid a travel company for registration.

On departure from St Petersburg, my visa was checked but no one asked to see my stack of carefully saved registration documents.

I had heard the stories about being "shaken down" and was wary.  However, in five months I never had any difficulties.  In the cities, I never had any cops approach me, let alone ask to check documents.  I did have four or five police on the road wave me over as I cycled past.  However, they only stopped to ask the "curiosity questions" of where are you from, where are you going,...and never was asked for any documents (or they would have realized that my standard response to the "where are you from" question was my starting city, Amsterdam, not necessarily my nationality).

[catzenmouse]

Not to step on any toes but personally I think Elena's is a great place to start. I can only say this because I "started" at quite a few places and consequently ran into quite a few brick walls. Elena's isn't on the cheap but it is quite reasonable and I did not encounter one  single scam yet I did converse with many RW. Most of whom were earnest in their search as I was with mine. I was connected with many more than I anticipated. Elena's was real and not the letter Mill that were some of the others.

No toes stepped on here. We've got a couple of married folks here who used Elena's successfully. My personal preference is not an operation like her's so hence I would not recommend something like that. (and yes I did give her service a try way back when)

I dealt with many of the agencies early on in my search but in the end I met the lady who is now my wife while I was in country and did not have any prior contact with her before my trip.

Some of the great things about this adventure are that you can do it a few hundred different ways and be successful. You can do everything wrong and still find a great wife. You meet tons of wonderful people and make friendships that are quite unlike anything that you would have at home. There is an (almost) unlimited supply of fantastic beautiful women so no matter where you go you are going to find some.

Ken

[chivo]

Thanks for the imput Mev.

Entering Russia was easy.  I did it once at Kaliningrad and once from Estonia.  My passport and visa were checked and I was given a "migration card".  The migration card contained my departure date (plus some contingency) and stayed in my passport.  Unlike a 2006 trip to Russia, there were never any stamps actually placed on the migration card (visa rules changed in January 2007 to not put the stamps on the migration card, but instead separate paperwork submitted).

Its the new registration form. The migration card is stamped upon entry to show when you've arrived, thats all. In the "old" days the migration card would have both stamps on it, registration and arrival as i'm sure you know

I camped in the countryside and stayed in hotels in the larger cities.  I made sure to register the first night in Russia and otherwise I tried to register where I could.  I had "homestays" in St Petersburg and Vladivostok and hotels elsewhere e.g. Kazan, Yekaterinburg, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, Ulan Ude, Chita, Vladivostok... I tried to register at the hotels.  There seemed to be some variation there.  Some places would complete the registration form and give me a copy.  Others would just fill out the form.  I suspect yet others never registered me at all.  In Vladivostok was the hotel that was most picky.  They wanted to see my other registrations.  I showed them a mixture of hotel receipts/registrations.  They rejected some as not having proper stamps or being receipts not registrations but I had enough to pass muster.

All you needed was the original really. again goes to the point of having an apartment rather than dealing with a hotel if you're not accustomed to Russian ways, even though I've never had any problems checking into hotels outside of Moscow as long as my visa was indeed correctly registered the first time

On departure from St Petersburg, my visa was checked but no one asked to see my stack of carefully saved registration documents.

Technically you're suppose to turn them into your sponsor before leaving. The people at the border or passport control will never ask for the registration
Sounds like you had a wild interesting ride. I'm sure you have some stories to tell. In reality though most will not have to deal with what you did. Good luck
chivo

[Ronnie]

First Chivo said my statement about visa's [sic] wasn't true, then goes on to confirm most of my points.  There IS a fee for registering a visa...if you use a visa agency like visatorussia.com you are paying the fee in the package price, i suspect.  The rule is that you must register in each city within 3 days of arrival.  And yes, you could lie to the cop but the burden of proof is on you. 

In my case,  I had come to Moscow from St Petersburg, then returned to Petr, then came to Moscow again.  It was 3rd day and I was walking with my date near the Ohotny Ryad.  She got called for having a photo in her passport that had not been updated for a while.. I think there is a ten-year rule.  My train ticket fell out of my passport and it was the first one dated ten days earlier.  I figured I better pay up.

What would happen if you refuse to pay the "fine?"  The Russian man who owned the agency I dealt with said that they take you to the police station where you will sit for hours while they "check things out."  Eventually you realize you'd be better off cutting a deal, as I did, and go on with your day.

This seems to be a common practice in Moscow particularly...other Russian cities maybe aren't so bad or not an issue at all.  Enforcement does seem to be spotty on exiting the country..you're supposed to show your registration(s).  I exited by train and wasn't even questioned (I never did register in Moscow) but I always worried about the cops..they stop everyone..expecially in the metro and train stations. 

My point was not that visiting Russia isn't manageable, but that it's a hassle you don't have at all in Ukraine....no visa, no registrations, no shake downs from cops.

Then there are economic considerations..  One of my Moscow dates was a former model.  We went to lunch...she picked the restaurant...salad alone was $30 per person.  Total tab for lunch...just under $300.    That was 6 years ago..it's worse today with the weak US dollar.  Moscow is now the most expensive city in the world.  Oh and yes, I know..there are much cheaper places to eat.  She was clearly probing to see how deep my pockets were...smart girl....material girl...if you're looking for that type..you should have not problems finding her there.

[Daveman]

Pause one moment here please, for those of us who are cranially impaired...

Did I read this thread correctly that now, even with a multiple entry business Visa that the weary ow life foreigner is limited to 90 days inside the Russian borders in each 180 period??  Thanks

Dave

[Ronnie]

Before she was gunned down in her own apartment building in 2006, Anna Politkovskaya, an Russian Journalist with dual USA/Russia citizenship wrote about Putin's Russia:

"it is we who are responsible for Putin's policies": "Society has shown limitless apathy... As the Chekists have become entrenched in power, we have let them see our fear, and thereby have only intensified their urge to treat us like cattle. The KGB respects only the strong. The weak it devours. We of all people ought to know that."
------
"We are hurtling back into a Soviet abyss, into an information vacuum that spells death from our own ignorance. All we have left is the internet, where information is still freely available. For the rest, if you want to go on working as a journalist, it's total servility to Putin. Otherwise, it can be death, the bullet, poison, or trial - whatever our special services, Putin's guard dogs, see fit." 

"People often tell me that I am a pessimist, that I don't believe in the strength of the Russian people, that I am obsessive in my opposition to Putin and see nothing beyond that......If anybody thinks they can take comfort from the 'optimistic' forecast, let them do so. It is certainly the easier way, but it is the death sentence for our grandchildren."

After Politkovkaya's assassination, former KGB agent Alexander Litvinenko publicly announced that Putin had ordered her hit.  Litvinenko was subsequently poisoned in London.  Scotland Yard has determined that the trail leads back to the Kremlin.

[Shadow]

Ronnie I have managed to eat in Moscow on less than $50 for two persons. I was never stopped by cops, never was asked to pay a bribe. In fact they have helped when wanting to know some directions and some spoke English.
The cops that I saw stopped those who looked like bums or muslims. If you did not fit in to this category, they did not stop anyone.

I have visited both Kiev and Moscow, and in neither city had any problems with cops or other authorities. Moscos looked to be ahead in fixing their property, but as for the people and cops there was no difference.
Both countries have the militia that will ask for a quick bribe, and as long as the salaries stay low and people will not wear their seat belts and drive drunk this will not stop. It seems that somehow you are biased against Russia. No problem, but do not tell horror stories that really have no ground at all.

[BC]

Ronnie,

In 1976, President Gerald R. Ford issued  Executive Order 11905 to clarify U.S. foreign-intelligence activities.  In a section of the order labeled "Restrictions on Intelligence Activities," Ford concisely but explicitly outlawed political assassination:

                            5(g) Prohibition on Assassination. No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination.

http://www.trialbriefs.com/politicalassassination.htm

I would assume that issuing an executive order is not just a pass-time activity.

[Ronnie]

Your own quote says the order was to "clarify"  It did not "change" a policy.  Ford had just survived two assassination attempts by wacky women...one a pro-communist (Sarah Jane Moore was released from prison last week BTW). 

What the heck does this have to do with Russia?  I am not biased against Russia (Jeez).  I care about the lovely people there and their futures.  They can't all emigrate..some will remain.  Putin's reported (official) popularity is to be expected where opposition voices are "eliminated" and the press is controlled.   

Our current and past administrations are complicit as we handle Putin with kid gloves fearful of rekindling a cold war.  We make a mistake when we say the west "won" the cold war.  Such end-zone dancing grates on Russian pride and inspires Putin's inner circle to kill democratic reforms (and reformers) and move back to what they regard as the good old days when the world feared Soviet power and influence.

In Ukraine the story is different.  Democratic reformers and voices of opposition to authoritarianism are speaking louder and gaining in popular support.  Corruption remains a problem but is slowly waning.