looking for travel advice from the experienced

[jb]

Doug,

Why mince words,,, why don't you just tell Jack what you really think?

[BC]

hmm.. guess I missed something..

[Jack]

By the way Doug,  speaking of pretty slimy, look at the rates you charge for your services, why it's borderline rape!       I would hope anyone who might consider using your services to please take just a few minutes and compare your prices with a few other service providers. [/url] 
 
I know of no man who would pay your prices for your services unless they felt they just did not have another choice or were total losers         and bought the crap     you were telling them.
 
Doug, speaking of what we look like, I gotta hand it to you, with a mug like yours     you got a lot of balls.   My clients do know what I look like, I meet most of my clients, as well my photo is on my website.  
 
I think if a guy is so friggin lame and helpless that he needs some charlatan service provider like yours,   god help him as he is headed for disasterville as most Russian women cannot stand stupid men, but you should know that.
 
I think anyone who charges the prices you do is really taking advantage of men   and I think we can all agree anyone who would pay your prices when they can get the same service, and often times better service, for half the prices you charge is indeed a person who is a few bricks short of a full load       and certainly not the type client I seek.
 
With the prices you charge  , your really close to borderline scam  in my book. You make a very cheap accusation, as you do with anyone who disagrees with you I have noticed, regarding me and scam. Your a typical competitor. Holler scam because you cannot compete on my level. Don't you think it's strange Doug that I have been involved with, and helping a few thousand men, in the pursuit for a Russian bride for 10 years and not one current or former client can ever say they were scammed!  It's only the typical low class competitor such as you who will say scam, but where is your proof?    You have none!  You want to charge people two and three times more for your services then what many good and honorable agencies charge so your only defense is call them scam?   Pretty weak Salem, but typical Salem.
 
I guess you think being a nobody  in USA  and with a mug like yours  if you can trick an attractive Russian bride into marrying you that it will make you a somebody.   Nope, doesn't work that way Salem, in your case once a loser always a loser.  
 
 

[Bruce]

Well, I am starting to think we have our first flame war.  As far as I am concerned this is an extremely educational thread for a guy searching for a FSU woman.  It delves deeply into interpreters, their fees, their abilities and their services.  It is very good to get professionals in the field having an honest discussion.   Stirlitz and Jack gave very interesting points.  In my opinion Stirlitz gave some very interesting insights into the mind of an interpreter, their fears, pressures, why a good male interpreter could be better than a female interpreter etc.  Jack always gives good insights into the process and has the perspective of a businessman responsible for the over all care and guidance a client needs to find, attract and ultimately marry a girl from the FSU.  Doug S, I know little about his business or how his business model differs from Jack's or how his prices and Jack's prices differ.  If I was a guy starting out I would not mind reading the motivation and philosophy behind what, when, why and how a guy should go about the process of finding, attracting / keeping a girl from the FSU.  Now, we all know all guys are different and have different pressures etc.  Some guys only get to go to the FSU for maybe a month each year and feel they have to maximize it.  Other guys could spend up to three months a year there.  Others can quit their jobs and work there, or just live there.  Some guys know alot of Russian, some none.  Some want to learn Russsian, some do not.  Some are very confident, some not.  Some have very deep pockets, some not.   I feel the average middle class guy could find a great girl from the FSU - but they at least need some help initially.  The question(s) is what is best for the guy just starting out.  It is good to know the options that really are out there.  I welcome these discussions from the superior guide / translator like Stirlitz as well as business owners like Jack and Doug S., etc., but of course would like to read substance, not inuendo and accusation.

[Admin]

I welcome these discussions from the superior guide / translator like Stirlitz as well as business owners like Jack and Doug S., Bruno etc., but of course would like to read substance, not inuendo and accusation.

Exactly correct - so long as these guys are able to stick to the objective facts, even if they disagree - without resorting to personal attacks, then the debate is welcome.

Personal attacks, flame wars, and the like - are non-productive and except for the occasional entertainment value, are not of great interest to the readership, hence, will have to be deleted if it gets out of hand.

- Dan

[Jack]

Big Dan,  if Dougwants to two step with me,     let him bring it on. 

[jb]

Dan,

In fairness, Doug S did launch a personal attack on Jack pretty much out of the blue on this thread.  I thought it was strange.  Perhaps they have something going on between them in their respective competitor relationship outside the board we aren't privy to.  Hence I wondered about the motivation of such a post.  While I enjoy a good debate, as long as it's informative and newbies can learn something from it, I say, "Let's get ready to rumble".  But I don't see this going anywhere constructive.

Maybe deleting those two or three posts would let things get back on topic, otherwise the thread is doomed.

[Jack]

Hey jb,

Their is nothing going on behind the scenes that I am aware of.

Just as you will respond to someone taking a cheapshot at you, and justified to do so in my opinion, so will I.

I can assure you Doug does not want to bebate me on good competitive pricing and top notch service.


And I would hope the existing post's would stay. Thre not harming anything and like Bruce made mention to, this type information and heated debates are good for newby's and experencied still involved with the pursuit of a fine Russian bride.

[BC]

If anything, newbies reading the last posts, would likely think twice about choosing either one.  Kinda childish imho. I think the authors will likely request their posts be deleted in their own interests.

[jb]

Jack,

Then maybe Doug was just having a bad hair day, or something else got his panties in a twist. I wasn't aware he was even in the biz.  I know his wife does translations, but that shouldn't interfer with the way you run your operation,,, or did I miss something else?

[Bruce]

I edited out the part about Bruno being a business owner since that is an incorrect characterization.  Sorry Bruno.   

[Stirlitz]

Dan,

In fairness, Doug S did launch a personal attack on Jack pretty much out of the blue on this thread.

I don't agree. It followed Jack's comments. I too wrote something, perhaps it was milder, but I just don't like flames.

[jb]

Igor,

I just don't understand why it's perfectly all right to post information on ways to get the best price for airline tickets and not all right to post information about translation costs.

Well, actually I do understand, you don't have a vested interest in airlines, but you do have a vested interest in the other.  You can't have it both ways, IMHO.  It's called commerce, and the price, as Dan pointed out a long time ago, is market driven.  If you want to charge higher prices then you must somehow drive your competitors out of business, thereby leaving you with a monopoly.  Once you achieve that goal you can charge whatever you like, maybe $100.00 per hour sounds reasonable to you.

I'm not in the habit of defending Jack, but in this case I feel he was unfairly showcased in this attack.  He was merely touting "his better mousetrap", which you may not like, but he is in the biz too.

[Doug Salem]

Jack,

I am not afraid to debate you, if that's what you mean by that ridiculous redneck dance from Texas. Here, we used to do the pogo. Lately I only dance lying down and with women.

As far as I'm concerned the "debate" is over. I stated my case - your prices for flowers are low-ball, much lower than the industry standard, which is what my wife, Olga's prices are based on. What do I mean by "industry standard"? I mean go around to all of the providers' web sites and sample their prices for flowers. And don't forget to add in the delivery charge and a message translated and printed on a notecard, which are both included in Olgas prices, not extra charges. Across the board Olga's prices are slightly lower than the industry average. And Igor/Stirlitz's in-country interpreting fee is also in line with the going rate. Jack's prices are cut-throat low, which led me to my point - he must be making it up somewhere else.

Where does he make it up? With his improbable "guided romance tours," the cheap flower and interpreter prices being the hook.

Bruce said he doesn't know what my wife, Olga's business GoEastNow does - how it differs from Jack's...

(And by the way, GoEastNow is licensed in the State of California and wholy owned and operated by Olga. I just do the ocassional marketing for her, and I don't get paid for it. Pretty soon she/GoEastNow will be certified as asmall, woman-owned business by the U.S. Small Business Administration. She just got her first big interreting and translation contract with a U.S. engineering company that is helping Moscow secure it's nuclear weapons stockpile from terrorists. Maybe they will send some flowers to Putin when he finds all of the missing stuff.)

It's pretty simple, GoEastNow is not a so-called "marriage agency." It is an independent communications service. Which brings me to my next point in this so-called two-step.

No, I wasn't having a bad hair day jb. I just got tired of hearing Jack's bullshit, that's all. He tried to discredit Igor's business and my wife's by suddenly bringing up prices in a forum and on threads that were not discussing prices. It  is no secret that I loathe so-called "marriage agencies" and their owners. They are frought with conflicts of interest, exploit the Russian women, mislead the Western men, and generally muck up the whole process of finding a nice foreign bride.

Sorry Jack, but your web site objectifies Russian women in the most shamefully sexist fashion, and it perpetuates all of the usual lies and myths about Russian women and Russian culture. Not to dwell on the subject of physical appearances or make that a platform for personal insults, but you hardly make a credible mate for any of the Russian women you claim to have courted. It's all bullshit designed to reel guys in, enable their fantasies, and have them fork over their dollars. It's the oldest con game in the book - preying on the human weakness of insecurity, fear and loneliness.

Western guys don't need Jack Bragg or any other so-called "marriage agency" to help you them find and marry nice Russian girls any more than they need help getting out of bed and putting on their clothes in the morning.

The only real service the "marriage agencies" provide is public exposure for the great majority of Russian women who would otherwise have no way of getting the word out that they are looking for a Western husband. (Most still do not have access to computers and the Internet, or simply don't know how to go about "getting published.") 

Posting their profiles. period. Amen. That's all the so-called "marriage agencies are good for. Everything else they claim to do for prospective Western husbands is frought with conflict designed to run up the meter.

Even worse are the subconcious scare tactics on Jack's web site like "private investigations," and "send flowers after the third letter as a cover for ascertaining if the woman is real or not."

Please. If a woman is a scammer and you either can't figure that out for yourself or don't want to know it, then you are not ready to go out into the world and get married. And if you do anyway, you deserve what you get. Who the hell is Jack Bragg to be looking out for you? And do you really think that's what he's looking out for? You and not your money?  Is he going to continue holding your hand through the rest of your marrioage and the rest of your life as you continue to make mistakes and find your own way? Geez, if he thought you would pay him for that, he'd add it to his web site as service, too.  Stop already.

You guys need marriage agencies like you need holes in your heads. Do it yourself. Use independent contractors with no conflicts of interest, no women to sell. You are going to have to live with her yourself, and work out the problems youself, and don't forget, ENJOY it yourself.

My wife, Olga, Igor, and the other independents out there are simply selling services to FACILITATE your own discovery process. They are small niche players with much lower volume than the big agency dream-rackets, but with the same high overheads of doing business in FSU and no scam revenue to offset them. The cost gets passed to you directly rather than indirectly. 

O.K., I hope that qualifies as an enlightening discussion of "the business" and not a flame, although I still maintain that it was Jack who first stepoed out of line and therefore got what he deserved.

I have been happily married to a Russian women for more than five years, I have a Russian brother, sister, mother, and father in-law, cousins-in-law, lots of Russian friends living in FSU, know lots and lots of Russian women and American men who are both happily and unhappily married and divorced here in the U.S. - and therefore have a very special place in my heart for their particular and unique situations. The one thing I can not tolerate are those who EXPLOIT. And that is why I went off on Jack, triggered by his slimy low-ball price comparisons of Olga and Igor.  

And yes, Albert, you do get what you pay for. And yes, Jack, Karma comes around when it comes to exploiting and taking advantage of your fellow men and women. It often takes a long time, but it comes.

- Doug S.

 

 

 

[Admin]

[user=89]Doug Salem[/user] wrote:

Jack,

I am not afraid to debate you, if that's what you mean by that ridiculousredneck dance from Texas. Here, we used to do the pogo.Lately I only dance lying down and with women.

As far as I'm concerned the "debate" is over. I stated my case -your prices for flowers are low-ball, much lower than the industry standard, which is what my wife, Olga's prices are based on. What do I mean by "industry standard"? I mean go around to all of the providers' web sites and sample their pricesfor flowers. And don't forget to add in the delivery chargeand a message translated and printed on a notecard, which are both included in Olgas prices, not extra charges. Across the board Olga's prices are slightly lower than the industry average. And Igor/Stirlitz's in-country interpreting fee is also in line with the going rate. Jack's prices are cut-throat low, which led me to my point - he must be making it up somewhere else.

Where does he make it up? With his improbable "guided romance tours," the cheap flower and interpreter prices being the hook.

Bruce said he doesn't know what my wife, Olga's business GoEastNow does - how it differs from Jack's...

(And by the way, GoEastNow is licensed in the State of California and wholy owned and operated by Olga. I just do the ocassional marketing for her, and I don't get paid for it. Pretty soon she/GoEastNow will be certified as asmall, woman-owned business by the U.S. Small Business Administration. She just got her first big interreting and translation contract with a U.S.engineering company that is helping Moscow secure it's nuclear weapons stockpile from terrorists. Maybe they will send some flowers to Putin when he finds all of the missing stuff.)

It's pretty simple, GoEastNow is not a so-called "marriage agency." It is an independent communications service. Which brings me to my next point in this so-called two-step.

No, I wasn't having a bad hair day jb. I just got tired of hearing Jack's bull****, that's all. Hetried to discreditIgor's business and my wife's by suddenly bringing up prices in a forum and on threads that were not discussing prices. It is no secret that I loathe so-called "marriage agencies" and their owners. They are frought with conflicts of interest, exploit the Russian women, mislead the Western men, and generally muck up the whole process of finding a nice foreign bride.

Sorry Jack, but your web site objectifies Russian womenin the mostshamefully sexist fashion, and it perpetuates all of the usual lies and myths about Russian women and Russian culture. Not to dwell on the subject of physical appearances ormake that a platform for personalinsults, but you hardly make a credible mate for any of the Russian women you claim to have courted. It's all bull**** designed to reel guys in, enable their fantasies,and have them fork over their dollars. It's the oldest con game in the book - preying on the human weakness of insecurity, fear and loneliness.

Western guysdon't need Jack Bragg or any other so-called "marriage agency" to help youthem find and marrynice Russian girls any more thanthey need help getting out of bed and putting ontheir clothes in the morning.

The onlyreal service the "marriage agencies" provide is public exposure for the great majority ofRussian women who would otherwise have no way of getting the word out that they are looking for a Western husband.(Most still do not have access to computers and the Internet, or simply don't know how to go about "getting published.")

Posting their profiles. period. Amen. That's all the so-called "marriage agencies are good for. Everything else they claim to do forprospective Western husbandsis frought with conflict designed to run up the meter.

Even worse are the subconcious scare tactics on Jack's web site like"private investigations," and "send flowers after the third letter as a cover for ascertaining if the woman is real or not."

Please. If a woman is a scammer and you either can't figure that out for yourself or don't want to know it, then you are not ready to go out into the world and get married. And if you do anyway, you deserve what you get. Who the hell is Jack Bragg to be looking out for you? And do you really think that's what he's looking out for? You and not your money?Is he going to continue holding your hand through the rest of your marrioage and the rest of your life as you continue to make mistakes and find your own way? Geez, if he thought you would pay him for that, he'd add it to his web site as service, too. Stop already.

You guys need marriage agencies like you need holes in your heads. Do it yourself. Use independent contractors with no conflicts of interest, no women to sell. You are going to have to live with her yourself, and work out the problems youself, and don't forget,ENJOY it yourself.

My wife, Olga, Igor,and the other independents out there are simply selling services to FACILITATE your own discovery process. They are small niche players with much lower volume than the big agency dream-rackets, but with the same high overheads of doing business in FSU and noscam revenue to offset them. The cost gets passed to youdirectly rather than indirectly.

O.K., I hope thatqualifies as an enlightening discussion of "the business" and not a flame, although I still maintain that it was Jack who first stepoed out of line and therefore got what he deserved.

Ihave beenhappily married to a Russian women for more than five years, I have a Russian brother, sister, mother, and father in-law, cousins-in-law, lots of Russian friends living in FSU,know lots and lots of Russian women and American men who are both happily and unhappily married and divorced here in the U.S. - and therefore have a very special place in my heart for their particular and unique situations.The one thing Ican not tolerate are those whoEXPLOIT. And that is whyI went off on Jack,triggered by his slimy low-ball price comparisons of Olga and Igor.

And yes, Albert, you do get what you pay for. And yes, Jack, Karma comes around when it comes to exploiting and taking advantage ofyour fellow men and women. It often takes a long time, but it comes.

- Doug S.

Doug,

I don't see anything at all wrong with someone pointing out that there are pricing strata for services in the FSU - just as there are here in the US (Walmart vs Nordstroms). It had been pointed out earlier that there are various levels of service, and they are priced accordingly - or should be.

In that same regard, there is value for accessibility. For example, if someone reads and speaks Russian, they are able to find extremely nice apartments in downtown Kyiv for a fraction of what is available through other sources. $25 per night is not at all unusual. From personal experience, I can tell you that the very highest prices (more than $100 per night) are NOT from agencies such as Jack's - they are when you look for services from one of the expat magazines such as Kyiv Post. Apartments through the agents from those sources are, on average, MUCH higher-priced than through Jack.

My point it - what Jack and Kevin and Igor and Olga (your wife) all are doing is presenting services to the marketplace. Each one of them is free to charge whatever the market will bear. Each one of them is free to demonstrate value-added services that differentiates them from others.

That differentiation should not, in my opinion, take the form of attacking others. You felt that Jack attacked Igor - and then you jumped into the foray with your own attack. At least, that is what I think you are saying.

In my mind, ANY attack just serves to demonstrate that the attacker is not interested in presenting value-added services, but would rather engage in trying to tear down others - which begs the question: Why are they not presenting their argument by describing superior service? Maybe their services are not that superior after all - or at least, that is where my thinking goes.

Agencies provide value-added services that can, indeed, save money for some guys going to the FSU. They are especially good for those who are not experienced travelers and who benefit from the extra assistance provided by the agencies and who may otherwise never have the courage/motivation/whatever to make the trip on their own.

Doug, you make a reference to "volume" and "overhead" experienced by some, but in fact aren't those elements of cost/profit that are kept in check by the forces of a free market? For that matter, isn't the concept of capitalism rather closely related to a form of the "exploitation" that you have no tolerance for?

My point is - while you obviously have strong feeling about this particular topic, that alone doesn't make it correct for others. Let's all try to evaluate the merits of these services according to their relative contribution and without the personalization.

OK ?

- Dan

[Doug Salem]

Dan,

I appreciate your efforts to keep the peace, and I'm all for that. But you are never going to sell me on the concept of the so-called "marriage agencies" adding any value to the process of finding hapiness with a Russian woman. My experience has been that they cause nothing but woe. I sure am glad I didn't get sucked into using one, But then again, it's not my nature to be so helpless. If it would have come down to that, I would have just not done it at all.

Jack did not merely point out that there are "different pricing strata for services," he singled out his only other competitors on your group. I guess that holding to your theory of one's motivation for attacking vs. touting why what they offer is better, I need not have defended Igor or my wife. Unless of course, having the lowest price IS why one is better. But still, I felt so inclined. Forgive me.

You lost me on the thing about the market bringing overhead and volume in check, or whatever that was you said. I was talking about a small business vs. a big one. The marriage agencies have a lot more revenue coming in all the time. They can afford to make flower deliveries for free.

You also lost me on the capitalism-exploitation thing. Yes, I like capitalism better than the alternatives, but I still hate exploitation of desperate people, and I think that's where we all have to draw the line on capitalism. That goes for exploitation of impoverished women who are desperate to get out of FSU, as well as exploitation of lonely men who are deperate to have beautiful young wives. I feel just as strongly about those capitalists who exploit human weakness in different areas right here in the USA (like weight loss pill peddlers, who exploit miserably overwieght people who are desperate to be thin.)

You are right that just because that's my view and I feel strongly about it, that doesn't mean it is for all, or is-all. I never said it was. Just my opinion and rebuttal to what appeared to be some kind of a challenge.

- Doug

    

[Admin]

[user=89]Doug Salem[/user] wrote:

Dan,

I appreciate your efforts to keep the peace, and I'm all for that. But you are never going to sell me on the concept of the so-called "marriage agencies" adding any value to the process of finding hapiness with a Russian woman. My experience has been that they cause nothing but woe. I sure am gladI didn't get sucked into using one, But then again, it's not my nature to be so helpless. If it would have come down to that,I would have just not done it at all.

Jack did not merely point out that there are "different pricing strata for services," hesingled out his only other competitors on your group. I guess that holding to your theory ofone's motivation for attacking vs. touting whywhat they offer is better, I need not have defended Igor or my wife. Unless of course, having the lowest price IS whyone is better. But still, I felt so inclined. Forgive me.

You lost me on the thing about the marketbringing overhead and volume in check, or whatever that was you said. I was talking about a small business vs. a big one. The marriage agencies have a lot more revenue coming in all the time. They can afford to make flower deliveries for free.

You also lost me on the capitalism-exploitation thing. Yes,I like capitalism better than the alternatives, but I still hate exploitation of desperate people, and I think that's where we all have to draw the line on capitalism. That goes for exploitation of impoverished women who are desperate to get out of FSU, as well as exploitation of lonely men who are deperate to have beautiful young wives. I feel just as strongly about those capitalists who exploit human weakness in different areas right here in the USA (like weight loss pill peddlers, who exploit miserably overwieght people who are desperate to be thin.)

You are right that just because that's my view and I feel strongly about it, that doesn't mean it is for all, or is-all. I never said it was. Just my opinion and rebuttal to what appeared to be some kind of a challenge.

-Doug

Doug,

You have the right to present services that are higher-priced than others - just not in a way that attacks others. Jack has the right - and I consider it a service to the board - to make readers aware of services at other prices. I never said, and do not believe, that lower prices alone make for a "better" service - in fact, I have occasionally lobbied strongly that lowest-price is NOT the best.

To the extent you and Jack and Igor are making the board readers aware of available services at varying prices, that is great. Attacks, however, are not OK.

I accept your position on marriage agencies. I didn't use one either - though I never closed my mind to the possibility, and I do see the possible benefits they offer.

My point about volume and overhead was simply to say that those are elements of cost/profit - just as the price one charges is an element. All of that is wrapped into the overall market package and buyers determine what they are ultimately willing to spend. Carried through to logical conclusion - those providers offering fair price/value to the market will survive - and those who do not, will not.

As for exploitation - it is a much-debated topic. I consider it a matter of degree. What one person will consider exploitation, another will consider merely effective capitalism. Not to say there are not clear and decisive forms of exploitation - there are - but Jack's agency is not, IMHO, one of them.

As for Jack's attack on his only competitors - actually, there are quite a few people offering competitive services on the board - including Eugene (from Crimea) and Kevin (of khersongirls), and Igor and Olga, but also Bruno and occasionally we have visits from other residents of the FSU who offer various services. There are more than just Igor and Olga who offer competitive services on the board, hence, the creation of the not-often-used-yet Member to Member Exchange section of the board.

Anyway, you are correct - I seek to try to maintain some reasonable level of harmony and I genuinely do see the merit in almost all posts to the board even when people find themselves in disagreement.

I hope we can return to the business of offering assistance to board members and visitors and move away from attacking one another. It truly is an unproductive waste of energy.

FWIW

- Dan

[KenC]

[user=89]Doug Salem[/user] wrote:

Dan,

I appreciate your efforts to keep the peace, and I'm all for that. But you are never going to sell me on the concept of the so-called "marriage agencies" adding any value to the process of finding hapiness with a Russian woman. My experience has been that they cause nothing but woe. I sure am glad I didn't get sucked into using one, But then again, it's not my nature to be so helpless. If it would have come down to that, I would have just not done it at all.

I used an agency (not Jack's) to meet my wife of 5 years and they were nothing but honest and helpful.  I may have paid a little more than I would have if I had used independent contractors.   I was not experienced enough to do otherwise.  They performed an invaluable service to me and my wife.  The agency made some money off of me as well they should.

 That goes for exploitation of impoverished women who are desperate to get out of FSU, as well as exploitation of lonely men who are deperate to have beautiful young wives. I feel just as strongly about those capitalists who exploit human weakness in different areas right here in the USA (like weight loss pill peddlers, who exploit miserably overwieght people who are desperate to be thin.)
- Doug

I see no exploitation on either the women or the men's side of this.  No one in coercing the women to join or the men to participate.  The agencies just provide an avenue for the two types, (impoverished women desperate to leave the fsu/ lonely men desperste to have a beautiful wife) to accomplish their goals.  The alternative is that the women can stay impoverished and live in the fsu and the men can stay lonely and unmarried.  The agencies allow these two catagories the opportunity to better their lives.  If they feel they are getting played, then they should just not do it. 

 As for you overweight example, the chubster could just stop eating so much and go for a walk, if they truely wanted to lose weight.  The truth is that most overweight people want an easy way to accomplish their fantasy goal because they are not willing to sacrifice themselves.

KenC
    

[Stirlitz]

You have the right to present services that are higher-priced than others - just not in a way that attacks others. Jack has the right - and I consider it a service to the board - to make readers aware of services at other prices. I never said, and do not believe, that lower prices alone make for a "better" service - in fact, I have occasionally lobbied strongly that lowest-price is NOT the best.

To the extent you and Jack and Igor are making the board readers aware of available services at varying prices, that is great. Attacks, however, are not OK.

It is OK to make people aware of different opportunities, but I consider it dishonest and improper to continuously tout about lower prices and cram into their heads: "If you pay an interpreter more than $5 an hour, you are nuts. It makes no sense. I can find you plenty of cheap interpreters". The message is if you pay more, you are an extravagant fool; and Igor, however professional he is, is ripping you off, and you must go to me, you have no choice unless you want to blow money. Dan and jb, I consider it an attack actually, and I believe that Doug simply returned it to Jack. Jack has the right to mention other rate levels and strata but he has no right to assert that only cheap ones make sense and repeat it again and again. I take it as dishonest competition, dumping. There is a difference. If you sell something in the street and your neighbor sells it cheaper, it is OK. But imagine he would start shouting everytime anyone passes by: "Don't buy anything there, it is too expensive! Buy it here! Only from me!" Is it OK? jb, I am OK if people share information about best prices for air tickets, but if someone says "Hey I am an air company owner and I can sell you tickets for $100, and don't even think about others, they are not better, they simply rip you off!" would you buy it? I would not. I would think something is wrong with this guy if he is so desperate to sell it at the expense of belittling others. I would not buy anything from him. And if I were an air company owner I would be infuriated. Wouldn't you? I am surprised that you guys don't understand it.

$5 is charged by desperate people, and it might be OK to use it (it is up to you) but to advertise desperate people is not OK in my view. Again, there is a difference between sharing information and blatant advertising and junk prices aimed at removing competitors. Of course, if you guys are OK with buying goods manufactured by kids in Asian sweatshops, you will probably also be OK if someone advertises the goods, but I just don't understand it.

[Admin]

$5 is charged by desperate people, and it might be OK to use it (it is up to you) but to advertise desperate people is not OK in my view. Again, there is a difference between sharing information and blatant advertising and junk prices aimed at removing competitors. Of course, if you guys are OK with buying goods manufactured by kids in Asian sweatshops, you will probably also be OK if someone advertises the goods, but I just don’t understand it.

Igor,

I don't agree with you. I can pay someone $50 to mow my lawn, or I can pay the kid down the street $10. The kid down the street is not "desparate" - his needs are different - and the quality of service provided is different - and maybe my standards for quality of service are different.

You are, understandably, upset at someone constantly undercutting your prices and claiming equal quality.

You must realize, however, that this sort of thing happens constantly in a free market. The lesson of Walmart is that lower prices with reasonable (not superior) quality seems to be what most of America wants.

Still, I think your best choice - if you insist on charging more than others (which is your prerogative) - is to differentiate your services on the basis of improved or better service in some way.

You will never succeed by seeking to silence those who can offer a lower price. Simple as that.

I really think we all ought to let this go now.

- Dan

[jb]

I really think we all ought to let this go now.

I concur.

However, one word that popped up several times did get my attention and set off some alarm bells for me.  That word was "desperate".  This was used to describe both men and women involved in this process.

I think that *desperate* deserves a thoughtful thread of it's own.  Any takers?

[Bruce]

Sure - I'll start one.  I hope it is equally as informative as the past thread and less inflammatory.

[Stirlitz]

You will never succeed by seeking to silence those who can offer a lower price.

It is funny. You refer to the last paragraph of my message while it was just a postscriptum, and it looks like you did not read the previous one. I did not try to silence anyone. I was surprised that someone was trying to silence me. But, as I learned here it is OK for free market economy you enjoy in the US.

It is always interesting to learn something new about America and Americans though I cannot say all I am learning is beautiful.

[Bruno]

[line]
But, as I learned here it is OK for free market economy you enjoy in the US. It is always interesting to learn something new about America and Americans though I cannot say all I am learning is beautiful.

[line]
Not to fast... the market is free in some limit in US... they have something that nowhere in the world exist... the ANTITRUST law... ask to Microsoft... these law don't allow only one competitor in one sector of business... the market need the concurrency... this allow inovation and low price... all the benefice for customer...

Sorry, i am not always again US , they have some quality too ... economie and business is the domain of Galina... these info is from her, she is Ukrainian

[Turboguy]

Well, I guess I will throw in my two cents worth.   I think most of my comments are directed at Doug.   I took a quick look at your web site and it is nice.   I wish you a lot of luck with it.   Jack stated something to the effect that your prices for flowers are a rip off.    I will agree that things are supposed to be cheap over there and someone could expect cut rate flower prices.

I just made my first attempt to send flowers to the FSU for Valentines day.  Actually I think I had just sent them when I saw for the first time that you are in that business.   I went on the internet and did a search for flowers and N. Novgorod where i wanted to send them  (I think you just do Moscow anyway).   I have to admit I was a little shocked at the prices I saw.   Actually I think your prices are very reasonable.     The prices I was getting were running  $ 85.00 - $ 150.00 (except for one red rose which was a little cheaper.   I paid $ 85.00 for what I sent and my gal seemed to be delighted with it.  It made me feel good.   I don't agree with Jack about your flower prices.  They are fine.

A couple of quick suggestions though.  I think a little more info might help your business.   When I searched for flowers I got pages of sites.  I spent 30 seconds to a minute per sight and if something didn't grab me I was off for greener pastures.    In my one minute on your site I did not see anything about where you provide your services.   (in other words Moscow or Chicago) That is important and should be easy to find.   I think a few more photos could help.   I think I saw one that just was listed as a bouquet of flowers and no picture.  I like to know what i am looking at and without spending a lot of time.  

Doug, I am in business too.   My main competitor for the past 14 years can be pretty nasty and likes to make up things and use negative selling.   He has made it a point of trying to say my products are junk.  I don't join in.  Someone asks me about his products I won't knock them.  I will tell them the features we have that I think make ours better.    I think it is the way to go.  I think negativity will turn off more people than it will turn on.

It is probably easy to get upset when someone is critical of the business you run.   Buisinesses tend to be part of us much more than when we are working for 40 hours for someone else.   I think it is more your ladies business too and we tend to get even more protective of our gals.   I think however you need to learn to let things roll off your back a bit.   There are people who are going to critisize you no matter what you do or what the level of your prices or service.   I have to agree with what Dan says, cheaper prices do not mean someone is desperate.   The interpreters I use are ones I got hooked up with on my tours from European Connections.   Thier rates are $ 10.00 the first hour and $ 5.00 each hour after.   That is lower than yours.    Some of these gals are just looking to pick up extra money.  You are trying to make a living.  I am sure your service is great and your price is worth it.  I don't think that it means someone with a lower price is desperate.  It also does not mean there is anything wrong with your prices.   Supply and demand will take care of it.

There are a few guys here that seem to go off the deep end once in a while or at least get a little carried away with ideas that they feel strongly about that may not be what others believe.   There are a lot of guys here who are trying to help and trying to learn and there are some great things covered here.   I think it is a friendly place and it needs to be.

For what it is worth and I am not meaning this negatively.  I am just trying to help and to say what I feel.   If I came here and found one of the guys who came here had a service I could use I would be very inclined to try to work with him (or her) if I could.  Probably even if the price was a tad higher.  You sort of get a friendly feeling towards people here and people like to do business with friends.     If I came here and someone had a service and they were sort of fighting a lot with someone who may or may not be right (doesn't matter)  I would probably try to avoid doing business with them and look elsewhere.    I think this site could be good for your business but you need to learn not to let things bother you.