Dealing with damaged women

[KenC]

Thankfully my experiences are nowhere near as bad as a lot of the other posters here.
What I primarily deal with as a result of these issues are:

A lack of Empathy for others. Such as an inability to see the impact of her choices on others.
A sense of entitlement.
A lack of trust in terms of commitment.

deccie,
Geez, I thought you had a real problem!  What you described is typical of most RW!   No Prozac needed here!  Here's my take on this:
My wife exhibited all of these traits when she arrived.  I couldn't understand why she was so mean to waitresses at first for example.  I was told "all men cheat."  Not some, or most but definitely all.  She also acted like a spoiled little girl.  None of it made sense to me.  But I can tell you that after 9 years together, she is a much different (better) woman today than she was then.  I will leave it to others to explain why RW have these traits, but I can tell you (at least in my case) they were not permanent.  Good luck.
KenC

[BC]

In any forming relationship, each partner will be bringing some baggage along - count on it.

Spending time with each other increases the chances of detecting 'hints' that something might not be 'right'.

Discuss past issues openly with each other.

Accept that even after marriage hidden issues may arise that can take a lot of effort and commitment on both parties to resolve.

Don't ignore this aspect with any kids involved.

There is nothing 'unique' to FSU women when it comes to mental health.  The difference is that with a home town girl you will probably have heard
something in the grapevine about any craziness.

Don't hesitate to seek professional help if things get out of hand.  If your partner hesitates to see a professional, tell her it's the western way of seeing the town babushka.  If she refuses then go alone to get an idea what may be happening and how to approach.

[Serebro]

WEll, it's nice to hear that there are men who aren't scared of things like that... 
deccie, you have already been given advices concerning psychologysts, cold water, etc.... I don't know how old she is, but there's possibility that she  will probably never change and you will better ask yourself if you will be able to live all your life with the person who will never be able to trust you and will always be suspicious and you will always try to persuade her that it's not so..
when you have relationship with someone the main thing is mutual respect, trust and understanding. If any action of you can remind her of something bad from her childhood and turn her into an alien/enemy, etc, will you be able to live with this?! I know you love her, but there's no love without trust.She has no trust...

[Gator]

Deccie,

My experience is that RW, unlike AW, are reticent regarding skeletons in their closet.  Your woman, by revealing her past, is trusting you. Use this as an opportunity to understand her, to build greater trust.

Saying that she needs therapy may, however, not build trust.  How long have you known this woman?  I ask because I think men need to spend years with such women before deciding about marriage.

I was married for 25 years to a clinically depressed American woman who had tons of therapy and medication.  They do not snap out of it.  So what you see in your woman may be what you will get.  You will have times in your life when you need a strong partner by your side (not just a pretty woman with long legs).  If she can not be this partner because of her own deep-seated problems, I suggest that your life will not be as fulfilling as it could have been.  Yes, profound implications for the rest of your life.

Four years ago, I helped a RW who needed counseling in my opinion.  The results were not good because:

1.  It was difficult to find a psychiatrist, even in Moscow.
2.  RW are reluctant to use them.
3.  The psychiatrist had pre-conceived notions about what was best for the woman before knowing her background completely.

On my second attempt of dating RW with the thought of eventually marrying one, I eliminated all women who did not have two happily married parents.  The RW I ended up with was more problematic and less trustful than my previous RW, who had more skeletons in her closet than your woman.

Bottom line – know yourself, your woman and how the two of you will interact together as partners.  This takes time.

[Daveman]

WEll, it's nice to hear that there are men who aren't scared of things like that... 
deccie, you have already been given advices concerning psychologysts, cold water, etc.... I don't know how old she is, but there's possibility that she  will probably never change and you will better ask yourself if you will be able to live all your life with the person who will never be able to trust you and will always be suspicious and you will always try to persuade her that it's not so..
when you have relationship with someone the main thing is mutual respect, trust and understanding. If any action of you can remind her of something bad from her childhood and turn her into an alien/enemy, etc, will you be able to live with this?! I know you love her, but there's no love without trust.She has no trust...

Hey now, that water idea works wonders!! It's accepted scientific treatment! 

I agree with your comment about Love.  Many consider "love" to be a feeling or emotion and limit the definition.  "To love" is an action verb.  You are what you do; you love *how* you do.  Simplistic perhaps but my method is to always melt everything down into its most basic forms. It works for my own understanding anyway.   Some confuse human addiction with love... some confuse control addiction with love.. the list of confusions is virtually endless really.  With love.. nothing can be taken, earned, or demanded. All must be freely and abundantly given... trust, respect, devotion, loyalty, patience, understanding, acceptance etc.. if *all* of these are not freely flowing and freely given in both directions, there will be some bumps to step over which may turn into mountains over time.

[deccie]

deccie,
Geez, I thought you had a real problem!  What you described is typical of most RW!   No Prozac needed here!  Here's my take on this:
My wife exhibited all of these traits when she arrived.  I couldn't understand why she was so mean to waitresses at first for example.  I was told "all men cheat."  Not some, or most but definitely all.  She also acted like a spoiled little girl.  None of it made sense to me.  But I can tell you that after 9 years together, she is a much different (better) woman today than she was then.  I will leave it to others to explain why RW have these traits, but I can tell you (at least in my case) they were not permanent.  Good luck.
KenC

Thanks Ken,
There is other stuff but I find it difficult to write about without it getting too personal and I do want to protect this person's privacy.

It is good to know your situation is much improved.

[deccie]

Thank you all for your posts and for your goodwill.
This thread has been most informative for me.

[deccie]

  How long have you known this woman?  I ask because I think men need to spend years with such women before deciding about marriage.

Gator,
It is over 2 years since first contact. Nearly two years since first meeting. We have had 6 separate meetings and at one point about a month of living together time.

[Ronnie]

It may seem that events in her early years are responsible for her lack of trust.  However, that may not be the case and all and you'll only end up frustrated in trying to understand it.  Ken is correct in my opinion. 
Trust, in the soviet mentality, is for fools and westerners.  There are many things you may think you can or should expect from a woman that you won't get from an women from the FSU.  Trust is just one (there are others).  On the other hand, you will get certain things from a FSU woman that are hard to find elsewhere. 
To be successful, the greatest adjustment in an WM/RW marriage must be made the the WM, IMHO.  Trying to evoke change in one's spouse or cure his or her ills is a fruitless endeavor.

[Gator]

Deccie,

I guess that the one month of living together is probably when you noted some of your concerns.  Extrapolate that to years.

If you decide to continue with this woman, I suggest that you have another period of living together.   Where?   Her place.  I have lived with RW for two months in the USA,  one month while traveling (multiple occasions), and one month in her place.  The last was the most stressful and the least enjoyable, and indeed conflicts emerged.

[Enot]

I am not looking to "fix" her.. Only to reduce the negative aspects as much as possible.

Well this is a strange reply???  If you love her it would seem you would want to fix her.  I think you need to re-think your feelings for her.  After 2 years and no wedding or visa, I would also wonder about your intentions and what you might be doing when she is not with you.

Put yourself in her shoes, she probably thinks you don't want a perminant life together ... therefore the doubts.  I think you are putting these "damaged" flaws on her and they really don't exist.

[docetae]

There are many things you may think you can or should expect from a woman that you won't get from an women from the FSU.  Trust is just one (there are others). 

You can get trust ! but you must earn it. and this is not a one day process...

[Ronnie]

You can get trust ! but you must earn it. and this is not a one day process...

It would be interesting to hear from any WM who feels that his RW has more trust in him than she does in her RW friends.  I've yet to see such a phenomenon in any RW/WM couple.  Maybe Docetae can give an example or two from his own experience?

(not trying to be argumentative...just looking for further enlightenment to show that my experience is an anomaly)

[BC]

It would be interesting to hear from any WM who feels that his RW has more trust in him than she does in her RW friends.  I've yet to see such a phenomenon in any RW/WM couple.  Maybe Docetae can give an example or two from his own experience?

(not trying to be argumentative...just looking for further enlightenment to show that my experience is an anomaly)

Considering that many such relations are 'expedited' in many ways would it not be normal for a woman or man to NOT trust each other from day 1?

I believe my wife trusts me and vice versa but it has been years getting there.  "I believe what I see" attitude is actually quite healthy IMHO by putting forces to work to build trust in practical, visible terms and not just theory.  This also may play a big role in playing down expectations and keeping in touch with reality..  all positive in my book but a bit difficult to understand/get used to.

[edit]  If you want instant, unconditional love and trust, go easy on yourself and buy a puppy instead 

[Enot]

It would be interesting to hear from any WM who feels that his RW has more trust in him than she does in her RW friends.  I've yet to see such a phenomenon in any RW/WM couple.  Maybe Docetae can give an example or two from his own experience?

Hmm ... interesting.  My fiancee says her women friends are very nosey, jealous of her situation, and have changed since we submitted her visa papers.  They now only call when they want something or what something exciting to talk about like going to the USA to marry a man.  She doesn't trust them like she did before.  I know this has happened to other Russian women except far worse.  Some have gone as far to say their fiance is cheating on her and trying to stir up trouble.

I am sure my fiancee and her son trust me more then her friends.

[docetae]

It would be interesting to hear from any WM who feels that his RW has more trust in him than she does in her RW friends.  I've yet to see such a phenomenon in any RW/WM couple.  Maybe Docetae can give an example or two from his own experience?

(not trying to be argumentative...just looking for further enlightenment to show that my experience is an anomaly)

She is ready to leave her friends, her work (where she earns more than 1500$/months), her flat (she owns her flat in central Kiev), everything she has taken years to build to move with me... where she will have to build one new career, to learn new languages, for me this is trust...

[Ronnie]

Docetae,

I'm confused..forgive me.  But didn't you say that trust takes time to earn?  If I understand your latest comment, you are not yet married and she is still living in Kyiv?  Trust doesn't happen in a day, I agree.  Out of curiousity, how many days of face time with you did it take for her to arrive at this high level of trust in you? 

I really want to learn your secret.

[docetae]

only 3 weeks of face time since 5 months but daily contact (at least 1h) and some actions from me to demonstrate that she can rely on me (but I keep this private, sorry). But one important point is that her son has told her he likes me (he is 11). Since day first I have always be open, hidden nothing when she asked me about my past, present and what I want for future.

We are not yet married, not even engaged officially, in fact we discuss about her life in Canada since 3 weeks now to be sure we plan everything and forget nothing.  Both of us like to plan everything in detail . Next trip is in less than a month now and I will ask the formal question

We are not in the average stats here (me , 34 , 3 children, her, 34 and 1 child). She was married during 7 years, and her ex abused her, cheated, and manipulated her. I have had bad experience too, perhaps it's help us to appreciate the contrast with our past life.

[AnastassiaAsh]

It would be interesting to hear from any WM who feels that his RW has more trust in him than she does in her RW friends.  I've yet to see such a phenomenon in any RW/WM couple.  Maybe Docetae can give an example or two from his own experience?

(not trying to be argumentative...just looking for further enlightenment to show that my experience is an anomaly)

ha-ha! Well, I am here, and i can tell you that I never ever trust completely any Russian man or woman, doesn't matter if i know them or not, the only exception is my closest relatives. And I trust my husband completely, also because Americans, Canadians, Westerners in general are honest and trustworthy. How economy and environment makes Russians be dishonest - that's another topic overall, but that's true, it is ingrained in lots of Russians because it is the matter of survival.

Moreover, i couldn't and didn't tell any of my friends that i married an AM and was leaving to the US except one girl 2 days before. And the reason is described several posts higher. Trust is also closely connected with the rules and laws of the country you live in. Every woman knows what she can get as a result of her divorce if her husband cheated...or something like that. That might keep him in line and can make his intentions not worth while.

I can trust an American good man with a financial stability, soberness, true love and affection, love and dedication to our son....These things are non existent for me in Russian men. That was my primary and the only reason to want to find a foreign man and make a happy family with him.

[Ronnie]

Anastassia,
As you well know, Russians use the same word - "verit" - for "to trust" and "to believe" There is also "to have faith".  For us they each have different meaning.  When I talk about trust I am referring something perhaps different from what you describe.  You came to the US already speaking English.  Many do not, they tend rely more on the Russian diaspora for information and opinions.

[AnastassiaAsh]

To be clear here are the definitions:

I believe - Ya ver'u - I believe you what you have just said. - Ya tebe ver'u.

I trust you. - Ya teb'e dov'er'ayu. (I am confident that you will fulfill your promise)

Have faith - im'et' v'eru - more of a church/faith word.

My faith is Russian Orthodox.
I have faith in you - Ya v t'eb'ya v'er'u. (that you will accomplish this successfully)

So in Russian there are different words for these connotations too. 

[Ranetka]

ha-ha! Well, I am here, and i can tell you that I never ever trust completely any Russian man or woman, doesn't matter if i know them or not, the only exception is my closest relatives. And I trust my husband completely, also because Americans, Canadians, Westerners in general are honest and trustworthy. How economy and environment makes Russians be dishonest - that's another topic overall, but that's true, it is ingrained in lots of Russians because it is the matter of survival.

Moreover, i couldn't and didn't tell any of my friends that i married an AM and was leaving to the US except one girl 2 days before. And the reason is described several posts higher. Trust is also closely connected with the rules and laws of the country you live in. Every woman knows what she can get as a result of her divorce if her husband cheated...or something like that. That might keep him in line and can make his intentions not worth while.

I can trust an American good man with a financial stability, soberness, true love and affection, love and dedication to our son....These things are non existent for me in Russian men. That was my primary and the only reason to want to find a foreign man and make a happy family with him.

I think we all have the friends we deserve.

I trust my Russian friends fully, never had to regret it. The same goes for my best English mate. But I do not have many friends.

[deccie]

Well this is a strange reply???  If you love her it would seem you would want to fix her.  I think you need to re-think your feelings for her.  After 2 years and no wedding or visa, I would also wonder about your intentions and what you might be doing when she is not with you.

Put yourself in her shoes, she probably thinks you don't want a perminant life together ... therefore the doubts.  I think you are putting these "damaged" flaws on her and they really don't exist.

I do not want to "fix" her because I don't think it can be done any other way except by time and example. Even then it may or may not come.

My opinions on this are shared by others. The situation is recognised by those closer to her than even myself as well as others who have met/dealt with her.

As for the wedding and Visa. My situation is probably different to almost every other person here because as soon as we are married she can come here almost immediately. My employment already has "family status" and getting the Visa is trivial in nature. My employer will also pay for her relocation. However, I am working in the Middle East at the moment and in a fairly remote place at best (no telephone in my flat or even at work yet) and all three of us (mother, her and me) recognise this may not be the best place for her to come for quite a number of reasons.

[groovlstk]

Hmm ... interesting.  My fiancee says her women friends are very nosey, jealous of her situation, and have changed since we submitted her visa papers.  They now only call when they want something or what something exciting to talk about like going to the USA to marry a man.  She doesn't trust them like she did before.  I know this has happened to other Russian women except far worse.  Some have gone as far to say their fiance is cheating on her and trying to stir up trouble.

I am sure my fiancee and her son trust me more then her friends.

I can only speak from personal experience, but when I proposed to my wife I know she trusted me 100% with her life. She was leaving her family, friends, language, culture, a great job, etc. behind, and didn't want to; she would have been much happier if I had found a job in Moscow, but it was impossible. In order to agree to move to the US, she had to have complete faith in me and this she did, and she showed it in many ways.

So how do you balance that with the fact that, to this day, she has a bee in her bonnet if I joke with a female waitress or if a saleswoman seems to be a little too nice to me? I'm not complaining, I'm as far from a Casanova as possible so her jealousy is flattering and a little amusing at the same time 

We've been married a year and these episodes have lessened a lot over that time, but the word "trust" has different meaning when you're using it in relationship terms w/FSU women. The topic of AW vs. RW has been beaten to death, but during my dating days in the US this dynamic was completely reversed.

A word of advice for guys new to this: The only FSU women I dated who weren't jealous of other women in my life were those who were indifferent to me.

[Enot]

It's not that she doesn't trust you groovlstk, it's that she doesn't trust women flutting with her man.   

As you probably know, FSU women are very protective when it comes to their man!