Want to learn Russian? Don't take a class...at first.

[Taz]

So you want to learn Russian. You think a class is the best way to do so? Allow me to be the contrarian here. I think taking a Russian class is a total waste of time at this point as a rank beginner. Typically these classes meet once a week and that really isn’t enough to help you in a limited timeframe or learn quickly enough. You need help every day. You need to study for at least 30 minutes a day and less than an hour over a steady long term period of time to maximize your results.

I do believe that Russian classes can have merit though but I would suggest another method to begin with. By the time I actually set foot in a Russian class I was already beyond what they had to offer me. There is an EXCELLENT course to learn Russian developed by a gentleman by the name of John Langram.  I’ve had extensive contact with him over the past 7 years or so.

He has developed a great group of Russian materials as well as CBT (computer based training) CDs for learning Russian. Quite a few schools and universities in the UK use his materials. I can’t recommend his materials highly enough. For less than the price of the class you are considering, you can buy both the Ruslan 1 and 2 CBT’s. This would give you about the equivalent of learning Russian for 2 years at the university level. If you can complete even just these 2 CBT’s, you can easily get around on your own, converse, read and write Russian.

Here is the website for his materials.

http://www.ruslan.co.uk/ruslan.htm

I belong to several other Russian lists and websites. In the past I’ve organized group buys where a group of people agreed to buy his materials. I was then able to negotiate a quantity discount and John shipped the CBTs, workbooks, etc. directly to the people who ordered them. This saved them quite a bit of money and they got excellent materials to learn Russian with.

I have had several people ask me from other lists when I might setup a group buy again. If some of you here are interested let me know. It is how I learned Russian. I looked at them all before buying the Ruslan materials. What really pushed me over the edge was the reasonable cost and a review from this independent organization; CALICO.

CALICO is an organization that reviews computer assisted language tools. Here is their review to Ruslan 2:

http://calico.org/p-121-Ruslan%202%20(32001).html

If the link doesn’t work, just search in google for CALICO review Ruslan 2 and you will find it. For far less than the price of the Rosetta Stone or Pimsleur 1 CDs, you can have a far more complete set of materials.

For the record I have no vested or invested interest in this. Taking a language does require time. I completed the Ruslan 1 CBT CD in about 2 months. I spent about another 4 months on the Ruslan 2 CBT CD. I needed more time on second one due to my work schedule and it does raise the bar for what you need to understand.

This is the only method I’ve seen where you can work on your own that helps you in so many different ways (read, write, listen, grammar, etc.) and does it in an enjoyable manner. It has a little bit of a love story in it. There are tons of “extras” buried on the CD that you should take time to explore. Later in the upper level courses you get some interesting insight into the Cold War as well. It would be a bargain at twice the price quite honestly. The materials are reasonably priced even without a discount but a discount would help offset the falling dollar a bit.

After you’ve gotten through Ruslan 1 (or at least a few chapters), I’d then suggest a class. You’ll have a great foundation to work with and you won’t feel so awkward. You’ll know the alphabet and have some ability to read already. Another option (if you are in the UK) to find a class that uses John’s materials. There are quite a few schools and universities that use his materials as a primary resource or as a recommended secondary resource.

I have no financial interest in this company but I am a VERY satisfied customer. Matter of fact, I paid full price for my materials and just shared my success with others and helped them realize a discount. Can’t ask for a much more altruistic motive than that. If you do take a class, I highly suggest you augment it with the Ruslan CBT to help fill in the blanks. It was great to be able to right click on a word and get a translation or have it repeated again. It doesn't use the same 2 voices over and over like Pimsleur. You hear a wide variety of people speak as you go along and that helps your ears not be "tuned" to just one voice.

Forgot to add, go to meetup.com and look for Russian language meetups in your area to get help too. I was an organizer of a local group that helped get people interested in Russian language together to chat, learn Russian and discuss the culture.

[groovlstk]

While I think it's admirable to try to learn Russian, one of the sorriest excuses I see from newbies is that they can't travel to Russia or Ukraine for at least six months because they "want to learn some Russian first."

Bad excuse, just go FFS.

[Taz]

I didn't learn before I went. I knew 2 words on my first trip. I took a dictionary and was learning the alphabet on the plane. The beauty of the Ruslan CBT is that even if you use it for just a week, you can see the results (assuming you use it for about 30 minutes to an hour each day).

Additionally it helps you understand the process you will experiene entereing a typical FSU country. It has a lot of interesting info about Russia and weaves it into the story line that is your lesson. For me it was liking reading a good book that engages you on many different levels. It wasn't like listening to a lecture in class but being involved in a movie. Each section has examples, explanations and exercises to complete on the CBT.

I definitely wouldn't wait to learn Russian before going but I highly encourage any one to learn. Start immediately or as soon as you can. At the very least it will help you appreciate what your future mate might have to go through learning English. On the plus side, you will be open to meeting a lot more women as well.

[Lit_1nce]

That sounds like a very interesting course.. I already have the Pimsluer Russian course though, because I learned pretty well using it for German.. (have not started it yet.. what's the Russian word for procrastination ?) .. Yours does sound more comprehensive, I will check it out.

I have to agree with you that it is something you need to do every day. In my case, it happens to be a half hour trip to work, and same back of course, and that was perfect to do a lesson each way.. What I did, was pairs.. lesson 1 going, and lesson 2 returning.. and I would do this for several days before advancing to lessons 3 and 4 .. etc

I read something recently about language learning.. and it was that there was a study done that suggested that small amounts of alcohol would improve pronunciation when learning a new language.. of course too much and you are even worse.. !    .. now that would not work in with my learning while driving.. and actually I am not much of a drinker, but I thought it was interesting. I guess when you lose a little inhibition you roll those "r"'s better !

[Faux Pas]

Taz,

Looks like something I'm interested in but it isn't Mac compatible. Thats too bad as I would have made a purchase from said chap. I'm not real keen on the Microsoft emulator. I had it several years ago and it caused a lot of conflicts on my machine. :burnedup:

[Misha]

I would check out Mango Languages (http://mangolanguages.com/). It is free and Mac compatible.

[dmcgraw]

I tried Pimsleur Russian about 2 or 3 years ago.  I thought the first lesson was great.  I tried the second lesson and got nowhere with it.  I would be very interested to hear about your experiences with it.

I have been studying for 1.5 years with a human teacher and for me it has been fantastic.  Even though I have class only a week in general (sometimes twice), I think it has worked incredibly well for me.  Especially when I am diligent about doing homework.  I communicate in Russian on the Internet with my fiancee and I can read about 90% of what she writes without the help of translation software.

I understand that this option is not possible for everyone.  And also, it is a rather expensive way to go.

Dave

That sounds like a very interesting course.. I already have the Pimsluer Russian course though, because I learned pretty well using it for German.. (have not started it yet.. what's the Russian word for procrastination ?) .. Yours does sound more comprehensive, I will check it out.

[DKMM]

I used a class for 3 years at the university level and nothing else I've dabbled in since came even close.  Nothing will teach you like a human.

[Taz]

Let me start by saying I didn’t say to never use a teacher. I personally never used one per se but I am not suggesting that. There are a lot of the basics of anything you learn that you don’t need a teacher for. For example learning the alphabet is something you can easily do without a teacher at first. In reality any Russian speaker you meet can become a de facto teacher for you. They can provide some feedback to help you become better.

While the Ruslan course is CBT (computer based training), it isn’t a machine generated voice or voices. They are real human voices with several different speakers. Pimsleur has the same two voices ad nauseum so your ears get “tuned” to just those 2 voices intonation, rhythm and pitch.

The beauty of a CBT is it is ready whenever you are. You don’t have to schedule a class. You can do it in the middle of the night. You can easily repeat lessons whenever you want or have it repeat a phrase 100 times without getting tired. It never has a “bad day” or is in a hurry to get to the next class or is late for yours. You can focus on what YOU need to learn and not where the rest of the class may need help.

As we all know, all teachers aren’t created equally. Some are terrible, some are outstanding. The Ruslan materials have been independently assessed and are very high quality. Individual teacher effectiveness can be a real make or break thing for you. I have set in on Russian language classes in my area and many of them had teachers that obviously had never taught anything before. They only reason they were teaching the class is because they spoke both Russian and English.

Not everyone has access to a teacher. It may be cost prohibitive as well. The price of the Ruslan course is so inexpensive that I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t try it. Compared to Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone, etc, it is practically free and has much more information on each CD.

There is no substitute for an individual tutor but that is a luxury few of us have. An individual tutor that was available 24 hours a day, that was never tired or sick, high quality and free would of course be the ideal variant. I live in the real world however. I used the Ruslan course for about 90% of my Russian learning. As I wrote earlier, I courted my wife in Russian as she spoke no English when we met. 95% of my friends in Russia and Ukraine speak no English at all. I’ve literally spoken with thousands of Russians and I’d say there was only a handful I had difficulty communicating with. I often speak on the phone which in a foreign language can be very difficult to do. Factor in the typical mediocre phone quality of the Russian phones and it becomes even more challenging. I firmly believe this course is a great way to get a lot of the basics as well as help to understand a lot of the nuances of the language.

The one area where it truly can’t help you as much is in your pronunciation. You won’t receive any feedback from the program but neither does Pimsleur help you here either. If you have a “tuned ear” such as if you play an instrument or sing you can pretty quickly understand if you are way off the mark or pretty close to what is being said. I typically repeated everything they said so that it would become more natural for me to say some of the more difficult words. I would try and mimic what they said as best I could.

When I spoke with a Russian speaker I would then ask them to fine tune my pronunciation if needed. If you are one of those “tone deaf” type of you people you are going to have a problem with any language that isn’t close to your native one. As is typically the case, your listening comprehension will be better than your ability to speak the language.

I’m just relating my personal experience. I’ve found it is better to learn in smaller blocks of time such as 45 minutes to an hour frequently rather than a marathon session on a weekend. For example if you study for 30 minutes a day, every day, it will be more effective than to study for 4 or 5 hours on the weekend in one or 2 sittings. Most people should be able to find 30 minutes a day to learn.

Whether you choose to use the Ruslan course or not, it is still a great idea to learn the language. It will boost your confidence while there and you’ll appreciate the extra freedom it gives you will there. I can’t even begin to tell you how many brownie points you’ll earn with the women. Anyway for those of you who are interested the author will be setting up a special web page for us with a discount. I’ll have the details in a few days once it is completed.

[dmcgraw]

Taz,

I pretty much agree with everything your wrote.

All teachers certainly are not created equal and just being bilingual does not even come close to making you a teacher or an interpreter for that matter.  I was fortunate that in my initial search for a Russian teacher in St. Louis, I found a woman from Kiev who had a Masters Degree in teaching foreign languages and had worked as an interpreter for many years in Kiev.

As far as access to a teacher, I know that most of her students live outside of St. Louis, doing video classes over the Internet.

As far as cost, yes there is no way around that.  A good human teacher is not cheap.

Dave

As we all know, all teachers aren’t created equally. Some are terrible, some are outstanding. The Ruslan materials have been independently assessed and are very high quality. Individual teacher effectiveness can be a real make or break thing for you. I have set in on Russian language classes in my area and many of them had teachers that obviously had never taught anything before. They only reason they were teaching the class is because they spoke both Russian and English.

Not everyone has access to a teacher. It may be cost prohibitive as well. The price of the Ruslan course is so inexpensive that I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t try it. Compared to Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone, etc, it is practically free and has much more information on each CD.

[Ronnie]

No one has mentioned Rosetta Stone.

I studied Russian at the college level in the early part of the Brezhnev era.  Native Russian speakers were hard to come by in those days.  My professor was American with German ancestry.  He taught us to count, "odin, dva, tri, chitire," etc.  I later lived in Italy and learned the language on the streets, so to speak.  If you have a good ear and can deduce meaning, you can learn quickly this way

My interest in Russian was rekindled when a RW doctor initiated contact through match.com.  Newly single and unattached, I determined to travel to the FSU and see the mystery for myself.
I ordered the Pimsleur tapes and wore them out.

Then I signed up for a monthly pay as you go program at Rosettastone.com

Their system of seeing an action at the same time you hear the description thereof was akin to learning as I had learned Italian - the same way we all learn our FIRST language.  You also have the option of seeing the written words at the same time. 

I concur with those who say there is no substitute for being in country without an interpreter.. but Rosetta stone is the next best thing.

Over the past 4 years, I have communicated verbally more in Russian than in English.  I work from home and my wife and I communicate 95 percent of the time in her language.  We try not to, but it just is easier for us both though we both understand it retards her English learning even though she attends ESL class 4 days a week.

[mendeleyev]

Nice thread Taz, and I second you opinion on classes at first.  Most classes at the college level present a learning curve that is very steep for the beginner.  Some self study first is a much better idea.

The internet hold fascinating possibilities for learning.  I had a couple years college Russian and then my wife took over!  She's done a much better job by the way.  I'm on the second round of teaching a beginning Russian class locally (non-accredited) and am also moderator of beginning Russian classes on two Russian interest/culture websites.  It would not be proper to list other websites here so naturally I won't.  But the internet with it's vast resources such as the thousands of learning Russian websites, many with sound, are fantastic tools!  There are even credible Russian lessons for free on YouTube.

Russian pop music is a great teaching tool.  For a quick example, take the Russian word for snow.  It looks like this in Cyrillic:  снег.  In Cyrillic that is "ess-ehn-ye-geh."  True for writing, but grammar teaches us that the Russian г (geh) is a consonant and at the end of a word certain consonants are "devoiced" to what is called a voiceless counterpart.  Well the voiceless counterpart for г happens to be the letter k (kah).  So while the word for snow is properly written as снег (sneg), it is actually spoken as CHEK (ess-ehn-ye-kah or Eng: snek).  Having students watch a pop music video by a pretty Russian singer who sings the word over and over is very productive to helping them hear it and repeat it correctly! 

Another concept that CDs (CDs do help students both hear and practice sounding words) don't capture well are the Russian spelling rules.  For example, milk:  молоко.  That is "ehm-oh-ehl-oh-kah-oh" in Cyrillic.  Be we don't speak it as Mo-Lo-Ko.  No Russian would understand that.  But if you know the spelling rules you understand that an O is only spoken as an O when it's part of the stressed syllable.  (Russian words have only one stressed syllable per word.)  So, if the O is not part of the stress then it's converted to an "ah" (A).  And to say the word correctly we say "mah-la-KO."  A common Russian lady's name, Olyesa uses the same principle.  Spoken it's ah-LE-syah.

I like Pimsleur, Russian the Fast and Fun Way, Mango, Rosetta and several others.  While great tools, you can't teach alphabet, reading, grammar and spelling rules via audio only.  Maybe Ronnie's experience is better, but I don't see Rosetta or Pimsleur as providing a good job on grammar.  Guys who travel to the FSU may have accomplished all 3 Pimsleur levels but if they don't know the alphabet in both printer and cursive forms (Russian signmakers tend to mix printed and cursive letters in signs), and don't understand the grammar and how it changes with cases, they'll be just as lost in a sea of signs and directions as the guy who only learned 10 words before travel.

Also the Moscow State University has language classes via Skype.  You sign up for just $49 per unit and you can get a MSU certificate in Russian language/culture at a total cost of about $750 at just about 2 years.  A minimum of once each week you meet on Skype with a personal advisor/tutor.  First you start as a beginner and your second year moves to intermediate level.  You can pace yourself and don't have to get it done in the 18-20 months recommended, but like anything else if one doesn't stay at it, soon it falls by the wayside.

I recommend it because most of us will spend the same amount of time, and eventually about the same amount of money, to accomplish the same outcome.  Why not have a certificate from Russia's most prestigious university while you're at it!  http://www.onlinerussian.net/Home.asp

(I have no vested interest in promoting this other than it's such a neat concept.)

[Ronnie]

Great post (again) Mendy.  You're right about the grammar...takes awhile to master.  Pimsleur and Rosetta stone teach you correct grammar but no rules to apply in other phrases.  You just have to figure out that if something is "pod stolom" it must have grammatical significance.  I recall the first time I hear someone say they would be going somewhere with me.. "idu s Ronom" (sorry I'm to lazy to type in cyrillic right now).

Grammar has been slow in coming, but it's steadily improving.
I remember a lady in pitr complimenting me on my Russian, though I was only about 5% of my present level.  "You speak Russian just like a Russian man!"  I replied that I appreciated her nice words, but I knew my grammar was poor.  "That's exactly what I meant!"

Wonderful idea about the skype course with MSU!  Thanks again for you great comments.  I hope you'll keep 'em coming!

[Taz]

Mendy- I've expanded upon these same points on other forums. Didn't seem to much interest here so I decided not to waste my time going into more detail. The reason I like the Ruslan CBTs are they actually teach grammar. I personally didn't find much value in Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone for these reasons.

I listened to a lot of Russian Pop music as a basis for learning as well. I HIGHLY recommend Valeria and Zefira as being to artists that sing songs that are easy to understand the words and they aren't so fast that you'll have to listen 30 times to a song to pick up some of the words.

I had written and in depth post regarding what worked effectively for me to learn but I canned it since there wasn't a lot of interest. People tend to get sucked into the more commercial methods such as the aforementioned Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone. Last time I looked a Rosetta Stone program (about 2 years ago) they actually had quite a few errors. Maybe they are better now. I'll still stick with Ruslan as it is about 1/4th the price with about 5 times the content. PLUS you learn the grammar. There are workbooks and audio CDs if you want those kinds of things as well.

[mendeleyev]

Ronnie, thats a great story!  Very true too.  There is a man from Moscow who contributes often to one of the online classes and his grammar is so-so and his spelling is horrible.  The ladies seem more prone to correct grammar at the slightest infraction.

Tax, thanks for the info on Ruslan.  The material on their website looks very good.

[SANDRO43]

There are several alternative methods for teaching a foreign language, and their effectiveness also depends on the personal idiosyncrasies of the student. Personally, I prefer a top-down approach, i.e. having the general structure/framework explained to me, before getting into details.

Regardless of the method, it's much like any sports activity: one becomes proficient only after constant, and initially frustrating,  practice .

[Taz]

Regardless of the method, it's much like any sports activity: one becomes proficient only after constant, and initially frustrating,  practice .

Sounds like sex with a Russian woman. 

Don't mean to veer into the gutter but I couldn't resist.

[SANDRO43]

Sounds like sex with a Russian woman. 

I'll take your word for it, no experience in that area (yet), and won't ask if you adopted a top-down or bottom-up approach in the endeavour .

[Taz]

Either one works of course but I'll base that on the woman's preference on where I should start my studies. 

Times like this I think of WWMD...what would Magellan do. I know that you Sandro will know this great man and understand my train of thought.

Yes, learning RUSSIAN can be difficult work but it does have its rewards every now and then. For those of you aspiring to learn Russian, don't forget to learn some tender phrases as well. You'll get even greater respect from your woman. Slip in a sweet phrase while in a passionate moment and the look on her face will be priceless!

[Ade]

Yes, an old topic I know but just want to say thanks for the tip Taz - I've been looking around for a good computer based language course and this looks like it's as good as it gets.

Not sure if this has been posted before but some of you may find this link useful too; http://fireyez.unilang.org/RKK/lesson1/abc.html It's a list of the Cyrillic characters and when you click on them it plays the sound that they make. Very cool and useful.