Scam 101 revisted

[Lit_1nce]

I propose a new term be created ...

spousership - The act of financially aiding your spouse (or spouse to be)

[Jazzyclassy]

My husband is the most amazing man and he proposed the best definition, I could not have written better than my gorgeous lapochka did!  :kissing:

[Shadow]

Actually I go with the definition that jb has given. That is the base of sponsorship.
Contributing to the cost of life of a future spouse, or helping out an ex-candidate to regain her former life by financial support is not sponsorship.

[timothe]

I believe the lesson to be taken from Andrew's experience is one of extreme caution.   Some men think they can weed out the hookers from a letter writing campaign, frankly, I doubt it.  A clever RW is generally miles ahead of the ignorant AM anyway and if she wants him to think so, she will have him believing she's as virginal as the driven snow.  Andrew was certainly right about that.  The caliber of AM going to the FSU looking for a mate is generally so poor, with judgment so bad, it's a wonder there's a hooker left in Moscow or Saint Petersburg at all.

I think you can weed out the con artists in the letter writing stage/discovery stage.  It's more than just letter writing, though.  

* Don't respond to profiles with no description at all, just photos of Ms. Smokinhotkova.
* Avoid profiles that list the ages of 18-99 as desirable men.
* Don't subscribe to Anastassia Web, Army of Brides, or other "scam" agency websites.
* Consider alternate methods of discovery such as placing your own newspaper ad or visiting Russian community websites in a big city near you.
*  Go to the Russian language dating sites and translate them into English.  
*  Ask every important question you can think of when you exchange letters.  Cull out those that refuse to answer innocuos questions like "do you like dogs?"
*  Ask detailed questions about their occupation, their family, their children or their desire for children.  Provide detailed answers about the same.  
*  Make multiple phone calls to the girl(s) that suit your fancy.  Arrange the calls at different times of day, especially on the weekends.
*  Visit her in her home city.  

After a short time, you will start to see the personality of the person on the other end of those letters and phone calls.  You will find out her discover her routine, if she has one.  You will find inconsistencies in the girls that are not sincere or they will simply quit writing and move on to easier targets.  

You can do these things without falling in love with the woman.  However, it becomes difficult to keep more than one woman on the line with this method because she will want you to commit to seeing her and she won't take it kindly if you try to tell her she is one of a stable that you intend to visit.  You pretty much have to visit one woman with maybe one backup plan in the way I have mapped out above.  And of course, there's no guarantee that you'll have chemistry when you meet or that she'll just get up and leave her country for you.  

But for me, it was more desirable to cull out the pros on the front side than to try to do it after I've met them.  I'm just too easily manipulated by the smell and the touch of a sexy woman.  I was just too scared of bringing back a GCG.          

[Misha]

I believe the lesson to be taken from Andrew's experience is one of extreme caution.   Some men think they can weed out the hookers from a letter writing campaign, frankly, I doubt it.  A clever RW is generally miles ahead of the ignorant AM anyway and if she wants him to think so, she will have him believing she's as virginal as the driven snow.

And, not only an AM. My wife once told me the case of a RM who had fallen head over heels for a very high end prostitute. She showed a lot of signs that something was up: she did not want to live with him, she would disappear without word for entire nights, and she had a lot of disposable income, much more than her day job would have reasonably provided. It was only after they had broken up (she dumped him) that it was pointed out to him that she was a prostitute. She was very high end and would be called in only for very special guests, but nonetheless she was a prostitute. He could not believe what he was told. So, if a RM could have gone so long with the proverbial wool being pulled over his eyes, what chance would your average AM, knowing no Russian and going to Russia for a couple of weeks to find a wife, have of discovering the truth about any woman?

[Misha]

Dan,

Do not, by your extension, put words not written by me at my doorstep.

My understanding of the Russian concept re "sponsored girl" are as follows:  A man, typically older and usually married, takes a young mistress for a long term relationship.  He provides a flat, money for food, drink, clothes, and some entertainment.  She in turn makes herself available for his fun on the side.  Some of these arraignments go on for years with never a thought or intention of marriage in either persons mind.  This is a woman/girl who exchanges her body for a certain lifestyle.  To my thinking there is little difference between this kind of "sponsorship" and prostitution.  The subtle difference is the sponsored girl has just one customer.

If you see a parallel between this and your helping your wife-to-be during the visa waiting period then I can't explain it any better because I don't see it that way.

JB definition is spot on. In most cases the details as to how much the sponsor will provide is worked out in advance. A woman who is sponsored will expect X dollars per month from her sponsor. I met a woman who had a sponsor many years ago (1997), she was being paid back then $500 per month. She had a child with her sponsor, but he told her that he would never officially acknowledge the child as his, and he never did. The "relationship" lasted a number of years before he broke off with her. While she was being sponsored, she did not work as the money she received from her sponsor was better than the average salary in Moscow. She was a native Muscovite and lived with her mother. Her mother saw nothing wrong with what her daughter was doing it and even encouraged it.

I would say the defining feature of the sponsorship is that the woman receives a set amount every month and this is negotiated in advance. As long as the man pays, he is guaranteed that his "lover" will be available to him and usually only him. Usually, the sponsor has a lot of money and has a wife. Usually the wife knows what is going on and will tolerate as she risks losing more by divorcing him than letting him have a woman that he is sponsoring on the side.

[Admin]

JB definition is spot on. In most cases the details as to how much the sponsor will provide is worked out in advance. A woman who is sponsored will expect X dollars per month from her sponsor. I met a woman who had a sponsor many years ago (1997), she was being paid back then $500 per month. She had a child with her sponsor, but he told her that he would never officially acknowledge the child as his, and he never did. The "relationship" lasted a number of years before he broke off with her. While she was being sponsored, she did not work as the money she received from her sponsor was better than the average salary in Moscow. She was a native Muscovite and lived with her mother. Her mother saw nothing wrong with what her daughter was doing it and even encouraged it.

I would say the defining feature of the sponsorship is that the woman receives a set amount every month and this is negotiated in advance. As long as the man pays, he is guaranteed that his "lover" will be available to him and usually only him. Usually, the sponsor has a lot of money and has a wife. Usually the wife knows what is going on and will tolerate as she risks losing more by divorcing him than letting him have a woman that he is sponsoring on the side.

Robbing from another's interpretation of this definitional problem (attribution to BC), this sounds an awful lot like what we call a "mistress".

If so - it would EXCLUDE anyone who is NOT married from being a "sponsor" or engaging in "sponsorship".

Once again - with a clear and unambiguous definition of these terms, we can diffuse some of this contention and vitriol.

- Dan

[BC]

Even if there is not 100% agreement to any particular definition, it still can serve quite well as a reference point for discussions here.

Can't wait to get to 'goodtime girl', pro-dater, etc etc..  Maybe we could add a few new ones like: 'socialite' 

[BillyB]

It's hard for a pro at one thing to fake being a pro at another but I can understand guys blinded by love will look over red flags which happens more often than not. I know a top scientist and he's knows his business except for most everything else in life where one can consider him as dumb as a box of rocks.

Some girls are good on getting your blood flowing to your little head with the words she write such as kisses, hugs etc and knows what kind of photos she needs to submit to attract most men. Family oriented girls tend to be more reserve and conservative and will talk about family oriented subjects and ask you family oriented questions and even ask you about yours kids in an attempt to size you up as father/marriage material. Also a guy should ask the woman if she likes going to clubs and bars without the woman knowing his stance on the issues so he won't be played.

IF we use our heads and leaves our emotions out of it, we can, to some degree, figure out people through the written word. I'm sure we all have some idea on personality, motives, and intelligence of others in this forum.

Observing the actions of another is obviously more important than reading letters and phone calls and those who propose to quickly will not get a good read on a woman. When I visited my fiancee, I continued to watch her on her on how she acted and performed domestic skills. She was not clumsy using a knife when she cut vegetables. When we went to her grandmothers, she did the cooking and cleaned her grandmother's(babushka's) flat which took some time. Party girls would eat grandma's food and leave as quickly as possible so their boyfriend could take them out on the town for the rest of the night. My fiancee told me grandma, who has a difficult time walking, was short on bread so we walked to the store to buy grandma bread. I could see it in grandma's eyes that Natalia was her favorite grandchild and my thought was confirmed when grandma gave her wedding ring to Natalia before she passed away.

Natalia is a very likeable, kind and humble person. Once we walked to her flat and 3 young Uzbek girls called her name and ran to her to give her a big hug. That told me a lot about her. She's also naive to some of the things party/bar girls know. Without getting into anything personal, you're just going to have to take my word that she hasn't been around the block. Once she cooked her brother and I breakfast and after we finished and her brother stuck his middle finger at her and she stuck her middle finger back. Amused, I ask her if she knows what that means. She proudly told me "It means "You go away and she learned that from American music television"". I typed in "Fukc you" into my electronic translator and showed her what it means. She was shocked and does not do that anymore. It was funny but it was good to know that she doesn't hang around the wrong crowd enough to truly understand what she does when she sticks out her middle finger.

I'm not saying everyone has the ability to see others exactly as they are but the point is that it is hard for a family oriented woman to act like a pro hooker and a pro hooker to act as if she has decades of domestic skills experience and family oriented values. Keep your eyes and ears open and use your big head and you'll have a good chance telling the difference between women.

BC, add this politically correct term to the list: "friends with benefits"

[Misha]

Robbing from another's interpretation of this definitional problem (attribution to BC), this sounds an awful lot like what we call a "mistress".

- Dan

A mistress on salary. A married man can have a mistress in Russia without being her sponsor. The difference is that the woman is getting other things out of the relationship: attention, companionship, sex, etc.... She will not be getting paid a set amount every month as she would with a sponsor. A married man who wants a mistress in Russia will do pretty much the same things that a man in North America will have to do: woo her, dine her, and eventually convince her to start a relationship with him. He may conceal the fact that he is married or he may pursue her anyway. He may even help her out financially, but the amount won't be set out in advance.

When I was looking for my wife, I saw a number of women who were looking for sponsors on the  free Russian dating sites. They would usually indicate how much they wanted: $800 per month or $900 per month or more ore less depending on the woman and her perception of how "marketable" she was. She was not looking for love, she was not looking for a salary, she was looking for a man to provide her a monthly "salary" and she understood that the man would want in exchange more than conversation and a peck on the cheek.

[jb]

Robbing from another's interpretation of this definitional problem (attribution to BC), this sounds an awful lot like what we call a "mistress".

What did you think a "sponsored" g/f was, if not a mistress?  Do not confuse the term "sponsor" with the other uses, i.e., USBCIS application.  As pertaining to being a "kept" woman by a b/f in Russia, we think of that woman as having a sponsor.

[Admin]

What did you think a "sponsored" g/f was, if not a mistress?  Do not confuse the term "sponsor" with the other uses, i.e., USBCIS application.  As pertaining to being a "kept" woman by a b/f in Russia, we think of that woman as having a sponsor.

My effort has been directed toward getting some kind of rational definition - which, BTW jb - you did for us. Thanks.

We will use that definition, or some very close derivative, and cast it formally so that we can mitigate some of the unnecessary insults. Well, at least those insults which use these terms.

- Dan

[BC]

Having a 'mistress' here down south is still within the realm of reality for those that can afford it.

Considering that my RW will prohibit me from ever reaching that 'can afford it' status again, we have very little to worry about.

     

[Admin]

Closing the topic for 24 hours so people cool off a bit.

- Dan
Topic is now re-opened. Note: There have been numerous off-topic and/or inflammatory posts removed and/or edited. If there are any offensive posts remaining, please use the 'report to moderator' button to let us know about it.

- Dan