Scam 101 revisted

[Admin]

I did!!!!!
sex tourism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_tourism
"The World Tourism Organization, a specialized agency of the United Nations, defines sex tourism as "trips organized from within the tourism sector, or from outside this sector but using its structures and networks, with the primary purpose of effecting a commercial sexual relationship by the tourist with residents at the destination".[1] "
Trafficking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafficking_in_human_beings

"The main motive of a woman (in some cases an underage girl) to accept an offer from a trafficker is better financial opportunities for herself or her family. In many cases traffickers initially offer ‘legitimate’ work or the promise of an opportunity to study. The main types of work offered are in the catering and hotel industry, in bars and clubs, modeling contracts, or au pair work. Traffickers sometimes use offers of marriage, threats, intimidation and kidnapping as means of obtaining victims. In the majority of cases, the women end up in prostitution. Also some (migrating) prostitutes become victims of human trafficking. Some women know they will be working as prostitutes"

Also this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution
"In sex tourism, travellers from rich countries travel to poorer countries such as Thailand in search of sexual services that may be more expensive in their own countries. Other popular sex tourism destinations are Brazil, the Caribbean, and former eastern bloc countries."

"Many women are hoodwinked into believing promises of a better life, sometimes by people who are known and trusted to them. Traffickers may own legitimate travel agencies, modeling agencies and employment offices in order to gain women's trust"

Serebro,

You are broadening the issue. If the issue is defining a "sex tourist" - AND - if we are to use the definition in your citation - then it ONLY involves those who are organized in their international travel plans to engage sex with prostitutes. No other condition applies.

By this definition, and based upon Jack's recount of his trip - he is clearly NOT a sex tourist. Would you agree?

Now ... if you want to address the subject of "Human Trafficking" - that would be a different topic.

- Dan

[timothe]

This is a weird thread.  I'm bored, so I'll add my two cents.

I remember Andrew vividly from our discussion about the evil America.  I never met him personally, but he seemed reasonably well informed and intelligent.  He also seemed jaded, as if he felt life owed him something and never delivered.

I think the point Andrew was trying to make with his trip reports is that sex is a much more open subject in FSU than it is in the west.  He would comment about picking up a woman in the bar, taking her wherever, and then paying for her cab ride along with some extra money for "expenses".  In Andrew's mind, the woman didn't think of herself as a prostitute, but rather, it was some type of unwritten agreement to exchange assets.

In my travels, I only met one woman who was openly willing to give sex in exchange for commitment.  She had a sister who lived in North Carolina with an absolutely fabulous man and she was hoping for the same outcome.  She actually brought the photo album of "their" wedding with her to Moscow, where we met.  Rather than lead her on, I paid her to leave and moved on to my backup plan.

I never "saw" prostitutes in Moscow walking the streets, but I knew exactly where and how to find them. (the hotels were filled with them)  I did see a couple of prostitutes walking in St. Petersburg when I was forced to stay in the centre because we were out too late and the bridges were up.  

In the nightclubs, you could not miss them as they could pick out a "mark" a mile away.

The whole question of whether a prospective WM could actually be meeting and marrying a "pro" is easily answered in the letter writing process.  A fair number of people here discourage letter writing, but I found that part of the process to be the easiest way to cull out the "broken" women.  After a few letters, you could tell the difference between a woman that was sincere about marriage and family as opposed to a nightclub girl.  Of course, a WMVM approach will NOT cull out these women.  You have to be willing yourself to write enough letters to these women to determine their intent.  

We have some people here who judge some of the men as sex tourists.  It is my opinion that there is no such animal without the complete cooperation of the women involved with them.  If an FSU woman is deadset on meeting and marrying a foreign man,than she has to either a.) be willing to stand up for herself and draw the line on sex until she's comfortable or b.) be willing to be used by a man who will not commit to marriage without sex.  With so many scammers on both sides of the equation, that's now part of the deal...like it or not.                      

[Serebro]

Serebro,

You are broadening the issue. If the issue is defining a "sex tourist" - AND - if we are to use the definition in your citation - then it ONLY involves those who are organized in their international travel plans to engage sex with prostitutes. No other condition applies.

By this definition, and based upon Jack's recount of his trip - he is clearly NOT a sex tourist. Would you agree?

Now ... if you want to address the subject of "Human Trafficking" - that would be a different topic.

- Dan

Dan, I know you are trying to take your old friend's side here but it's obvious that you are exaggerrating here trying to critisize the unimportant details , sexual tourism is the term that shows directly the way of acting, and the sexual tourist is the person who does it.Like prostitution and a prostitute.And my link shows it:

The World Tourism Organization, a specialized agency of the United Nations, defines sex tourism as "trips organized from within the tourism sector, or from outside this sector but using its structures and networks, with the primary purpose of effecting a commercial sexual relationship by the tourist with residents at the destination

By this definition, and based upon Jack's recount of his trip - he is clearly NOT a sex tourist. Would you agree?

No, I don't agree as I can't see any direct proof.
I repeat that all my questions are based on his own words and according to his own words his image isn't very good.(if not to say more)
in your post you told

RWD has made several significant attempts to engage some of the RW in defining the term "sex tourist". None have been successful

I made it above

when you meet many girls at the same time having no AIM to be married making promises you love them and will always love them and will marry them one day-it's  sex tourism.

-it's my definition of a RW that you wanted to have.

I even made a search for you.

I have also seen a lot of photos of Jack with different girls who didn't look like they were simply clients.And I remember the thread where one man told that Jack had a great wife and then they explained him that that wasn't his wife at all...

timothe

I remember Andrew vividly from our discussion about the evil America.  I never met him personally, but he seemed reasonably well informed and intelligent

I agree, he is EXTREMELY well informed, and about Moscow  sex clubs , too.

I think the point Andrew was trying to make with his trip reports is that sex is a much more open subject in FSU than it is in the west.  He would comment about picking up a woman in the bar, taking her wherever, and then paying for her cab ride along with some extra money for "expenses".  In Andrew's mind, the woman didn't think of herself as a prostitute, but rather, it was some type of unwritten agreement to exchange assets.

it's a much open subject if you work in the sphere of prostitution

In my travels, I only met one woman who was openly willing to give sex in exchange for commitment

I have never met that kind of women in my travels

I never "saw" prostitutes in Moscow walking the streets, but I knew exactly where and how to find them.

I don't.
At the same time I have heard of RW who are not sattisfied with their sexual life they have in their marriage so they are looking for a lover, but I have never met the woman who just enjoyed the process of dating itself when she is not married.I think that only unmarried women with sexual disorders/scammers/prostitues don't wish for marriage when they start relationships with a man.

This is a weird thread.  I'm bored,

I agree, it looks like Jack invited his clients/friends to support him(Leslie) and now they all say what a good person Jack is though most of them have never met him in person.
and these friends' friends just take their side.

It's boring and sad, I had never spoken with Jack before that thread and the things that I knew about him dissapointed me in a great way.and I am really sorry about many men who will listen to his opinion of RW and will treat them the way  Jack does.

[Admin]

Dan, I know you are trying to take your old friend's side here but it's obvious that you are exaggerrating here trying to critisize the unimportant details , sexual tourism is the term that shows directly the way of acting, and the sexual tourist is the person who does it.Like prostitution and a prostitute.And my link shows it:No, I don't agree as I can't see any direct proof.
I repeat that all my questions are based on his own words and according to his own words his image isn't very good.(if not to say more)
in your post you toldI made it above-it's my definition of a RW that you wanted to have.

I even made a search for you.

I have also seen a lot of photos of Jack with different girls who didn't look like they were simply clients.And I remember the thread where one man told that Jack had a great wife and then they explained him that that wasn't his wife at all...

timotheI agree, he is EXTREMELY well informed, and about Moscow  sex clubs , too.
it's a much open subject if you work in the sphere of prostitution
I have never met that kind of women in my travels
I don't.
At the same time I have heard of RW who are not sattisfied with their sexual life they have in their marriage so they are looking for a lover, but I have never met the woman who just enjoyed the process of dating itself when she is not married.I think that only unmarried women with sexual disorders/scammers/prostitues don't wish for marriage when they start relationships with a man.I agree, it looks like Jack invited his clients/friends to support him(Leslie) and now they all say what a good person Jack is though most of them have never met him in person.
and these friends' friends just take their side.

It's boring and sad, I had never spoken with Jack before that thread and the things that I knew about him dissapointed me in a great way.and I am really sorry about many men who will listen to his opinion of RW and will treat them the way  Jack does.

Serebro,

I think some of your recent posts have been extremely thoughtful. With this, however, you are (IMO) moving to an unsupportable position.

First, use the definition of "sex tourist" that you supplied. Just the "sex tourist" citation and ONLY the "sex tourist" citation. Are you satisfied with it?

I will assume, for purposes of this topic - that you DO agree with the definition.

Now move on to what Jack has stated. He does NOT make ANY assertion that he was involved with "commercial sex" (a/k/a prostitution) in any way. To the contrary, he speaks in strong disfavor of men who visit the FSU for purposes of getting involved with prostitutes.

So ... simple logic ... Jack is NOT a sex tourist. Period. End of debate.

- Dan

[timothe]

I agree, it looks like Jack invited his clients/friends to support him(Leslie) and now they all say what a good person Jack is though most of them have never met him in person.
and these friends' friends just take their side.

I met Jack last year at his annual picnic. (I've never used his services but he lives near me.) The picnic itself was a nice event where couples that Jack helped get together mingled with single men who wanted to see what the women were like.  The picnic was very much focused on the women who shared experiences with each other, swapped phone numbers, recipies, etc. 

To my knowledge, Jack didn't charge anyone to attend the event.  Just like all picnics, you bring a dish to pass while he supplied the burgers, hot dogs, and chicken breast.

After attending this event, I was quite impressed with Jack.  Regardless of his motives, he works hard for his clients and he tells them the truth about the process of meeting and marrying someone from another country.   

[Serebro]

Dan,

simple logic ... Jack is NOT a sex tourist.

SURE!!

I met Jack last year at his annual picnic. (I've never used his services but he lives near me.) The picnic itself was a nice event

This explains a lot.

Now, I am sure is just an angel.How could I  think that he was a sex tourist
Jack if you need addresses of charity organizations, PM me.

[Lit_1nce]

Personally I think that definition is perfect.

Just as a "pro-dater" or "party-girl" does not fall into the category of prostitute,.. neither does the male version of this fall into the category of sex tourist.

They are in their own category.. And to apply harsher terminology to them is not accurately describing their situation. The morals of someone sincerely seeking marriage, someone playing the field, and someone paying for sex.. are 3 different animals.

[Misha]

A prostitute has price point where the deal can be made, regardless of their personal feelings about the "purchaser"

Reminds me of a lame joke.

A billionaire is at a party. He is enthralled by one woman and spends the evening with her. At the end of the evening, he asks her: "Would you sleep with me tonight for 1 million dollars." She hums and haws and finally agrees to the proposition. The billionaire then asks if she would be willing to accept $20 for the night. She then looks at him in disgust and says: "Of course not! What do you think I am, a prostitute!" He replies: "We know what you are. Now, we are simply haggling over the price."

[Misha]

Also this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution
"In sex tourism, travellers from rich countries travel to poorer countries such as Thailand in search of sexual services that may be more expensive in their own countries. Other popular sex tourism destinations are Brazil, the Caribbean, and former eastern bloc countries."

"Many women are hoodwinked into believing promises of a better life, sometimes by people who are known and trusted to them.

Well, in the spirit of equality, I would like to point out that a number of women also participate in trips to poorer countries for "romance." There, they meet up with young women willing to service their needs for money, meals and the like.

[Admin]

Reminds me of a lame joke.

A billionaire is at a party. He is enthralled by one woman and spends the evening with her. At the end of the evening, he asks her: "Would you sleep with me tonight for 1 million dollars." She hums and haws and finally agrees to the proposition. The billionaire then asks if she would be willing to accept $20 for the night. She then looks at him in disgust and says: "Of course not! What do you think I am, a prostitute!" He replies: "We know what you are. Now, we are simply haggling over the price."

There is also a movie with Demi Moore, Robert Redford, and Woody Harrelson which explored the same issue. It is an issue which is not black and white.

Dan, SURE!! :DThis explains a lot.

Now, I am sure is just an angel.How could I  think that he was a sex tourist
Jack if you need addresses of charity organizations, PM me.

Serebro,

You stated that you were NOT making an accusation - you were asking a question - AND - you were using Jack's own statements as the basis for your questions. The question seemed legitimate, but needed the context of definition.

I was not trying to prove you wrong or right, I was merely trying to get to a logical conclusion - and I think we did.

BTW - one of the problems in the past is that when people apply the pejorative term "sex tourist", the behavior they cite is not, by definition, sex tourism at all. There is a convenient broadening of the definition to accuse someone of bad behavior. The behavior may, in fact, be contemptible, but it is often not "sex tourism." It is an important distinction to make.

I did some thinking about this same question following Gator's post - what is "sponsorship"? In my case, sometime after I first met Olya, and my visits were pretty frequent, she had some difficulties with her employer of the time because she was taking quite a bit of time away from work to spend with me. Then, not long after, when we became more serious about our relationship and we both felt it had a real chance of a future, it became more important for her to spend her time making preparations for an eventual life with me in the US. At that point, she quit her job and I compensated for the income she lost. I also made certain she was 'comfortable' and had whatever she needed - and more. There was still the chance we would not marry, but I was paying for her lost income and other needs. Was she "sponsored"? And if so - what was the ignoble act in that?

Once again - I see little that is black-and-white in many of these situations.

FWIW

- Dan

[Admin]

Finally, as for the issue of noticing rampant prostitution in Moscow, I may have an explanation. Please note I wrote "may".

There is a part of the brain known as the "Reticular Activating System". One of its functions is to help us to filter out what is important, from what is not important, amongst the barrage of information we receive every single day.

For example - many of you receive advertisements in the mail. A common advertising flyer will consist of ads for appliances like refrigerators. Most of you, like me, do not even notice the hundreds (thousands?) of refrigerator advertisements which are received each and every week. The simple fact is - they are not important. Now, what happens if you get home one evening and find the refrigerator (out of warranty) had broken and all your food is rapidly spoiling. Does that advertising flyer for refrigerators that you forgot to throw away and is laying on the table suddenly become VERY important?

Another example - when you drive past the parking lot at the mall on your way to an important appointment across town - how much attention do you pay to open parking spaces at the mall? Maybe none - because it is meaningless at that moment. Contrast that to when you are jockeying for any open space during Christmas shopping season - and the alert scan you have as you approach the mall looking for flashing brake lights to give you a hint of someone opening a space. Get the drift? We focus our attention on those things which we have declared important - and we subconsciously block out a great deal of information which is NOT declared important/significant.

How does this compare to the situation in Moscow? Simple. For Gator (and me too), I could be walking down the street with rampant prostitution signals all around me - but if I am with a lady who has my full and dedicated attention, I simply will not even notice those others. THEY simply are not important to me - and I won't notice them even though they may be all around - just exactly as in the case of the refrigerator I do not need.

Just my $.02 worth.

- Dan

[Serebro]

Dan,
I have another explanation, too.
Most part of Russian money is concentrated in Moscow, this attracts people from the FSU, as it's the best place where they can earn money. Also the girls who come to Moscow to work may get into trouble and the only place where they can earn money easily is prostitution.
At the same time it's not that obvious as you think. You will not see girls jumping on men anywhere, it's hidden.
So people who want to see it see it, those who aren't interested don't see it and don't look for the information on this type of clubs, agencies, etc.
And I REALLY can't understand why would someone from Russia be interested in the amount of clubs/agencies, etc somewhere in nothern Brazil, for example...
just a note.

[Jet]

Most part of Russian money is concentrated in Moscow, this attracts people from the FSU, as it's the best place where they can earn money.

At the same time it's not that obvious as you think. You will not see girls jumping on men anywhere, it's hidden.
So people who want to see it see it, those who aren't interested don't see it and don't look for the information on this type of clubs, agencies, etc.

This really does make perfect sense, not just because of the Moscow elite, but because of the huge rotating influx of international travellers. I live here in Fort Lauderdale, another city with a high percentage of wealthy residents and visitors (especially in winter) there is plenty of prostitution going on here as well, but it is out of the public focus. You will rarely if ever see a hooker walking the streets here. I recall an article last year that stated when the boat show comes to town (multi million dollar mega-yachts more than "boats") it draws prostitutes from as far away as Chicago New York, and Los Angeles because there are simply too few hookers in all of South Florida to keep up with the enormous demand during the week long event. Even with all these "imports" you will have to look long and hard to see these prostitutes "out and about" on the streets of the city.

[BC]

BC,

Unless one can associate purely altruistic and love-based reasoning for marriage by ANY nationality (India, with arranged marriage perhaps), then I submit that virtually ALL women in ALL countries could be accused of being a part of Andrew's "dirty barrel". Simple fact is that women and men across the globe, if they are thinking at all, give consideration to the economics of marriage - and those in wealthy countries, I would expect, think about it just as much as those from poorer countries.

FWIW

- Dan

Dan,

Applied within local borders I can agree with most of your statement.  The problems commence though trying to apply your thoughts across disparate economic boundaries.

Is there not a reason why this board deals with women from FSU?  Where do the roots of this RW phenomena lie?  I don't recall such activity back in the 60's to early 80's.. Hey guys, sign up for the Lee Harvey Oswald wannabee Tour! 

Western men were also not lining up for RW when the iron curtain fell.  As a young man living in Germany during this era, I can assure you that we were having a grand time with the German girls with a great USD/DM exchange rate, access to good booze, cigs and the very best electronics from the PX.  A few eventually even got married.  Things changed with the slide of the dollar.  By this time the same booze was available off base, TV stores sprouted everywhere. Places like '40 Mark' and 'Pariserstrasse' became much more popular among the young GI's and even still exist today right outside the gates of most military communities.  I'd be willing to bet that AM/GW marriages are now at an all time low.  I would assume that visits to the local eros centers are also financially taboo for most USD earning AM.

I am convinced that this whole RW 'thing' really got off the ground when the true 'value' of seeking FSU women became public via the internet.  I know that some may feel that availability of the internet (vs hidden paper catalogs) was the major 'driver', but strangely enough Germany, Italy, France, heck even UK were not inundated with single American men.. I wonder why..  The answer is very simple..  It is fun to be King for a day.

[BC]

The whole question of whether a prospective WM could actually be meeting and marrying a "pro" is easily answered in the letter writing process.  A fair number of people here discourage letter writing, but I found that part of the process to be the easiest way to cull out the "broken" women.  After a few letters, you could tell the difference between a woman that was sincere about marriage and family as opposed to a nightclub girl. Of course, a WMVM approach will NOT cull out these women.  You have to be willing yourself to write enough letters to these women to determine their intent.

I admit that I never corresponded with women in this manner, but considering the difficulties many reportedly have even identifying IGOR vs RealWoman I am at a loss as to how much else can be determined with any accuracy.  I think you missed the barn completely this time.

[Shadow]

Early on in the thread I engaged Jack to give him opportunity to show his position.

While he was at the time disappointed that I took away from his discussion with Serebro, he should have known that she would continue anyway. RW...

Jack answered on my question that he tells his girlfriends he has no plans on marrying them, and if asked he will disclose that he will date others as long as he feels himself a free man. For the truth in these statements we will have to believe Jack on his word.
And honestly, in absence of jaded girlfriends, Jack's word is good enough for me.

A sex tourist in the RW definition would be a man who dates with the sole intention of sex, while hiding these motives under cloud of being interested in marriage. Taking Jack's word for his openness in these matters, he does not fall under the category of a sex tourist.

As he is basicly free. Jack can date any woman that he wants, and as many as he wants. It is up to the women he wants to date to reject or accept him for who and what he is.

Regadring prostitution in Moscow, I repeat that is it no more or less than in any international city, including American ones.

[timothe]

I admit that I never corresponded with women in this manner, but considering the difficulties many reportedly have even identifying IGOR vs RealWoman I am at a loss as to how much else can be determined with any accuracy.  I think you missed the barn completely this time.

Actually, the concept of Fat Yuri vs RealWoman is a perfect example of how letter writing culls out the non-candidates.  It is simply not possible to believe Fat Yuri to be a real woman after about 4 letters.  Those that get scammed by Fat Yuri are stupid...plain and simple.  (I mean really...how can someone be stupid enough to send a sgnificant amount of money to someone they've never met?)

I probably wrote a thousand letters or more in the introductory period between when I first started this adventure in March 2001 until I met Olga on my third trip in October 2002.  My former employer can verify this because his email server became flooded with spam written in Cyrillic.  (Yes, I know.  It was a stupid idea.)

Again BC, your desire to prove me wrong has clouded your senses.  But it really doesn't surprise me that you'd rely on your own limited thinking instead of the experience of someone who has actually has experience in the subject matter.  It is the essence of who you are to do so.   

[BC]

Timothe,

Again shooting wild I see.

The question I asked was not about fat Yuri but instead how you can tell after a 'few' letters whether or not the woman frequents nightclubs or bars if she does not disclose this fact.

[jb]

Regards AndrewFI, I never met the man, so I don't know if he looks like a stud toad or not.  Actually, it's immaterial to the subject matter at hand. 

I do know that he lived in St. Petr for many months and spent his time pursuing his educational interests.  His posts were highly entertaining (usually) as well as lucid.  His logic was generally well founded.   He related his experiences with single girls he met in the city's night clubs who were listed on various MOB sites.  Many of them offered him sex for money at the end of the evening.   For him, there was a logical conclusion to draw from this, i.e., many of the girls listed on MOB sites were hookers looking to retire from the sex trade with a well off yank.

Did he meet ALL the girls listed on the MOB sites?  I'm sure he didn't.  Are they ALL hookers?  I'm sure they aren't.   What his experience of many months living in the FSU did do for him was to jade his viewpoint regarding the MOB industry.  Agency owners do little to weed out the undesirables from their stable of girls.  This is a point which has been broached here many times, there are good girls on bad agencies, and there are bad girls listed with good agencies.   That point seems to be axiomatic and no one with any experience in the FSU argues the issue.

I believe the lesson to be taken from Andrew's experience is one of extreme caution.   Some men think they can weed out the hookers from a letter writing campaign, frankly, I doubt it.  A clever RW is generally miles ahead of the ignorant AM anyway and if she wants him to think so, she will have him believing she's as virginal as the driven snow.  Andrew was certainly right about that.  The caliber of AM going to the FSU looking for a mate is generally so poor, with judgment so bad, it's a wonder there's a hooker left in Moscow or Saint Petersburg at all.

I didn't agree with Andrew's political views and I probably took him to task more than anyone for his usual "once per thread" anti-American back stabbing comments.  To me he is just another poorly informed liberal with his mind already made up, and he didn't want anyone to confuse him with new facts.   Sheesh,,, the world is full of 'em. 

Regarding the difference between prostitutes and sponsored girls; to me, and my way of thinking,,, they are one and the same.  Each has made a decision to lay down on the bed and trade sex for a living rather than go get an education and work at a job.  I see men here who claim not to judge.  However, in the end, we all judge, it is as much a part of who we are as apple pie.   Europeans like to poke fun at Americans and ridicule our puritan roots and attitudes.  Well, I'm sorry,,, but that's what we are,  it's an integral part of our American social mores, it's the way your mother raised you, it is as much a part of the American culture as the invention of the telephone.  Most of us know the difference between right and wrong, and I dare say, most would not like to deliberately, knowingly, bring home a prostitute to meet the family.  Of course, what the newbie often doesn't get is the Oriental viewpoint of the Russian culture until it's too late. 

[I/O]

it's a wonder there's a hooker left in Moscow or Saint Petersburg at all.

'Tis a number thing. The factory produce's more than the agencies can sell. And..........much of the buying market is not well funded.

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

    did some thinking about this same question following Gator's post - what is "sponsorship"? In my case, sometime after I first met Olya, and my visits were pretty frequent, she had some difficulties with her employer of the time because she was taking quite a bit of time away from work to spend with me. Then, not long after, when we became more serious about our relationship and we both felt it had a real chance of a future, it became more important for her to spend her time making preparations for an eventual life with me in the US. At that point, she quit her job and I compensated for the income she lost. I also made certain she was 'comfortable' and had whatever she needed - and more. There was still the chance we would not marry, but I was paying for her lost income and other needs. Was she "sponsored"? And if so - what was the ignoble act in that?
           

Yeah Dan that is sponsorship and the same as Gator does with his woman , but why would that be bad or wrong if you both love your women and they love you back , if these women are your family , so this sponsorship is natural

I believe so did Leslie to his future wife, helped her when she was getting ready to live with him in the UK

So I do not see anything wrong with it and calling each other names and using more horrible lexics do not give you much of a credit really

As far as Jack 's answers to Serebro , I want to give you one advice Serebro  as a woman to a nice woman like you, do not waste your time on such men, do not reply, ignore him, you know who he is , those who need to know they know  who he really is let these assumptions be for our concern and not for others as they keep licking him all over telling how great person he is , let it be, until he does something which they wont like and which will show his real self , then we can talk with those people, right now it is useless to tell and describe his activity how he shows himself with tons of various women and at the same time he has a girlfriend, of course he will never marry such men do not marry , maybe when he was young and pure maybe but not now,  and acts in this forum like he owns it, just really ignore this man, you will feel much more better in this forum, I assure you   If you continue your battle with him , they will find ways how to humiliate you , believe me I 've been there

And yes Serebro I also found a lot of nasty opened info in the internet  about Jack , so it is a  not secret to people anymore

[Admin]

Yeah Dan that is sponsorship and the same as Gator does with his woman , but why would that be bad or wrong if you both love your women and they love you back , if these women are your family , so this sponsorship is natural

I believe so did Leslie to his future wife, helped her when she was getting ready to live with him in the UK

So I do not see anything wrong with it and calling each other names and using more horrible lexics do not give you much of a credit really

Regarding the difference between prostitutes and sponsored girls; to me, and my way of thinking,,, they are one and the same.  Each has made a decision to lay down on the bed and trade sex for a living rather than go get an education and work at a job.  I see men here who claim not to judge.  However, in the end, we all judge, it is as much a part of who we are as apple pie.   Europeans like to poke fun at Americans and ridicule our puritan roots and attitudes.  Well, I'm sorry,,, but that's what we are,  it's an integral part of our American social mores, it's the way your mother raised you, it is as much a part of the American culture as the invention of the telephone.  Most of us know the difference between right and wrong, and I dare say, most would not like to deliberately, knowingly, bring home a prostitute to meet the family.  Of course, what the newbie often doesn't get is the Oriental viewpoint of the Russian culture until it's too late. 

Same 'ol, same 'ol.

Here we have again, the use of derogatory judgments absent a clear definition of what constitutes "sponsorship".

Challenge for Jazzclassy and jb - submit a clear and unambiguous definition of a "sponsored girl".

jb - JC says Olya was "sponsored" because of the reasons I stated upthread - and you say a "sponsored girl" is the same as a "prostitute". Shall I, by extension, conclude you are saying my wife is a "prostitute"?

- Dan

[Jazzyclassy]

Here you go as how I understood this

when Dan proposed to his future wife and she had to quit her job and do the things to get ready to settle with Dan in the USA, obviously she did not have job so she did not have money and Dan sponsored her with money as his future wife already been proposed to her and she agreed. This sponsorship I find normal as he loves her ,she loves him they are about to be living together in a few weeks for example and if he , himself on his initiative wants to sponsor her with necessary money , it is never a crime!

If a girl is taking money from a guy and all those gifts and flowers and luxurious things and they never intented to get married and such , and she deliberately quit job cos she is lazy and wants to live by somebody's cost and is not serious about this guy, only wants to play around with him and meanwhile is searching for other guys to suck money for her playful happy go lucky life this sponsorship we call a sponsorship of a prostitute it is as simple as that!

[jb]

Dan,

Do not, by your extension, put words not written by me at my doorstep.

My understanding of the Russian concept re "sponsored girl" are as follows:  A man, typically older and usually married, takes a young mistress for a long term relationship.  He provides a flat, money for food, drink, clothes, and some entertainment.  She in turn makes herself available for his fun on the side.  Some of these arraignments go on for years with never a thought or intention of marriage in either persons mind.  This is a woman/girl who exchanges her body for a certain lifestyle.  To my thinking there is little difference between this kind of "sponsorship" and prostitution.  The subtle difference is the sponsored girl has just one customer.

If you see a parallel between this and your helping your wife-to-be during the visa waiting period then I can't explain it any better because I don't see it that way.

[Jazzys_chubbka]

I think the real definition of a 'prostitute' is that a person is paying for the sexual services of another. In that case the differences between a prostitute and a sponsored girl are not the same. We can define a 'sponsored girl' as a girl which is supported wholly by another person i.e. a husband or partner.

The fact that your 'sponsored girl' is providing such activities which could be seen as prostitute like is irrelevant because she is doing it by her consent and not in exchange for money. A 'sponsored girl' in my view is just a girl who happens to be supported by her husband like a lot of women are in a normal marriage situation. How many husbands in the UK don't wholly or partly 'sponsor' their wife when they are living together.