Assumptions We Make

[jb]

Jack wrote:

Just pure hogwash jb. jb, how many Russian women did you meet to come to this conclusion? Their is NO doubt in my mind that the average Russian woman of 23 is much more mature than the average American woman of 23. Their is NO doubt in my mind that the average Russian woman of 25 is MUCH more mature than the average American woman of 25. etc.,<snip>

You are, of course, free to disagree with absolutely everything I have ever said, but I base my observations on personal knowledge of many Russians. Hells bells~!, my own stepsons date girls of this age and they'll tell you the same thing.  A girl of 23 is a girl of 23, pure and simple, about the time they hit their 27th birthday they start to become aware of their surrounding and are able to tell the time of day. Unfortunately, by that time most already have a kid or two, that's the nature of life in the FSU.

[Jack]

Well jb, I am curious if other American men who are seeking a Russian bride and who have met several Russian women agree with you that Russian women of 23 , or 25, of 27 have the same maturity as American woman of 23, 25 or 27?

Your young Russian son-in-law feel American women are as mature as Russian women? Both my sons, of 31 and 21 have expressed to me the great difference in maturity in the Russian women they have met compared to American women of the same age.  I guess it is a difference of opinion between young American men and young Russian men.

[corncrowe]

It is at its worst when guys attack each other! Please cut the personal crap...it is a distraction. If someone wants to brag, let them. But don't lower yourself by attacking them.

So, no attack, only reply...

I am here for share my personal experience or knowledge... and because i was invited here by Dan...

Now, i have a new one reason... without RWD, i have never know my actual lady... it is not the RWD who have help me directly but a russian woman who publish here who have give me some little advice... these advice have change my method of selection of woman and allow me to find a pearl... without these advice, i was certainly always on the bad way...

About Luda, like i have explain previously, it was more a therapy for help me after the misluck with Galina... i have realize it at my return in Belgium... we have know good time together but we follow each our own way...

And i need to thank all the other members who have support me after my misluck... and specialy some who have send me advice... but these that i thank the more is Mischief... a great lady...

Yes, i have several reasons to be here... i teach what i know and i learn what i don't know... sometime, from what i learn, my own meaning change... if i have know RWD before my first marriage, i am sure that i have never married my first russian wife... so forum is the best tool for newbies and people who start again the process due to some misluck...

 
[/quote]
Bruno,

I doubt you remember that "I" said your trip report was in good taste and I supported you when it was difficult.  I thought the pictures of Luda were fine and didn't say they were in bad taste.

Did you forget?  Did you forget that I've stood up and supported you in the past?  Did you forget that we were to meet in Belguim with my Dutch friends for wine and cheese?

Sorry Bruno, if you can't remember friends then it's easy to find new enemies.

Now, I will say this once more.  I do wish you the best in life, many years of happiness, and success in a relationship.  If you decide to remember me, and relax, then maybe we will have that special lunch at a nice cafe`?

Okay?

Jon

[RacerX]

Jack:

Great post!  Something that along with jb's stuff would make a good 'sticky.'
'bout the only thing I would differ with you is the aspect of her English ability.  Unfortunately, there are basically two ways girls get to know the language: (1) it's part of her job (rare) or (2) she picked it up from another AM relationship.  Girls with "a plan" always have good English ability.

Someday we need to talk more about 'traditional women" (actually, it's not about cooking, but as mentioned, it concerns: loyalty, friendship, and her family instincts) and why the best way of trying to find such a women is to often limit the search to those girls who have only a passing knowledge of English.  As my wife always tells me, it's not about America but you... if we lived in Spain and spoke Spanish she would be happier.

p.s. I really like your quantification scale - not sure what it means, but it's kinda cool:cool:

[Michelangelo]

Please..Jon...
Can we make this less personal?  Do you realize that this forum is NOT "all about you?"  That in fact, hundreds of people are reading this and what you may not care to know others do want to know? Skim, keep what you want, but don't try to censure what someone says, cuz you will be stealing from someone who does want to read it.  What Bruno wrote about how men change over time is very important, Jon.  Maybe not to you, but to others.  Maybe not to your mysterious "Elen?"

I conclude, let us not read this with a self-centered view, but with the perspective that a broad forum of ideas is better than a narrow slice of ideas.  And yes, Jon, your idea is important, too.  But please make it once and in a more civil manner.

[RacerX]

Well jb, I am curious if other American men who are seeking a Russian bride and who have met several Russian women agree with you that Russian women of 23 , or 25, of 27 have the same maturity as American woman of 23, 25 or 27?

look, it's a small thing, but jb would be the first AM I've met who would say this - if you want validation about the advanced maturity of RW, just ask the women in the biz - unlike us, they actually know something about RW:P

[corncrowe]

Pee Wee,
KenC is correct. Proceed with caution. If possible, try every position, including tantric sex. And before that, find out exactly how responsive she is, in terms of how capable she is of having orgasms - the more she can have in a short amount of time, the better. These are the important things in life and romance, so try to focus on sex and the passion of sex above all other considerations, and focus on these important elements in the first few days of meeting her, but, I guess you are already past that point. KenC is living proof of the 'value' of those concepts. He is lucky that in southern california, he is surrounded by like-minded couples, who know what romantic values are important. He has that support system. PM KenC, and he will keep you on the proper course.

Yeah, we are beyond all of it. I have already asked her is she is into swinging. I don't know if they do that in Russia but it is huge here. She must be ready for it.

 

PeeWee


---

jb,

Darn, I think you're right.  I missed this the first time.  Now as for Photo giving tips about sex, excuse me, but I have to go throw up now!!!

  

----

jb made an excellent observation about this in his intial message.  I agreed that these sexual exploits were demeaning and juvenile.  First Photoguy didn't get a kiss from his FSU girlfriend.  The next thing you know he's an expert on sexual pandering?

Come'on, it made my stomach turn.  If Burno wants to console Photoguy then I say fine.  But women deserve more respect that being traded off as "swingers" and "free thinking S. Cal" playthings.

Do you agree?  Or do you think that this train of thought is good for men seeking women in the FSU.

I'm surprised you don't know who Elen is?  Are you absent from the world of RWD?  She's a valuable contributing member of this list.  Her insights and knowledge of FSU women is something most men on this list can't grasp.  She can play cat and mouse with these poor fools because she is a "FSU", Russian woman. 

Now, Michael.  I do appreciate your concern.  But please let's keep it in prospective, okay?

Jon

[jb]

Racer-

Or you might, as I am able to do, talk with the 20-25 y.o. Russian males who are banging the knickers off these girls while the dumbass middle aged American men are fantasizing about what wonderful lovers they think they are.

It'll give you a whole new perspective on the issue.

[jb]

Jack,

I said "my step sons", not my son-in-law, both of these young men are pure bred Russian.  They spend time in both countries and date both AW and RW.  I tend to believe my family over a MOB agency owner who's business it is to peddle the dream.

You may have encountered a few mentally mature 23 y.o.'s, but as a rule, the usual and normal 23 y.o. is a girl, not yet a woman.

[Bruno]

Well jb, I am curious if other American men who are seeking a Russian bride and who have met several Russian women agree with you that Russian women of 23 , or 25, of 27 have the same maturity as American woman of 23, 25 or 27?

Your young Russian son-in-law feel American women are as mature as Russian women? Both my sons, of 31 and 21 have expressed to me the great difference in maturity in the Russian women they have met compared to American women of the same age.  I guess it is a difference of opinion between young American men and young Russian men.

Jack and JB, i think that you have both right... maturity of people is something difficult to judge... and make a age on this, more difficult...

See the people around yourself, you can have guy from 25 yo with a great maturity and some who at 50 yo are always children...

About russian, they can be more mature because they marry early and know more of the life that western girls... the difficulty of life and responsabilty make them more mature... but with time, with better condition of life, with more late marriage, the situation in russia become similar that in the West... Certainly more true in big city like Minsk, Moscow or Kiev...

So, it is so much parameter for evaluate maturity that it is almost impossible to say that You or JB have right... Russia is a so big country, with several level of evolution ( financial, confort, modernity, education, ... ) that you can find everything in level of maturity... really difficult to make a general rule...

 

[Photo Guy]

Brunoito,

Viva le french?  Hey dummie, I saw the picture of Galina, and personally I wouldn't have kissed her with "your lips" either.  So you are a passionate guy?  Try dating some nice Belguim or French girls for a change.  I did.  

I still date American women and they don't kiss on the first date either.  But, I don't take advice from you or Photoguy because I've done better and passed on much better women than both you guys!

Jezz...I get women like these writing me and I'm not interested.

Inner beauty? Jon, do you realize Elen may read those beautiful thoughts of yours?   ...

[corncrowe]

So, it is so much parameter for evaluate maturity that it is almost impossible to say that You or JB have right... Russia is a so big country, with several level of evolution ( financial, confort, modernity, education, ... ) that you can find everything in level of maturity... really difficult to make a general rule...

Bruno,

I have to respect you insight into this equation.  Yes, it is an evolution of sorts.  A village girl will become more mature at 18 than a girl in Kiev or St. Pete.  Why, because of their financial status and quality of life.

As the quality of life increases in the FSU, so will the level of maturity of young women.  A girl who has to struggle for food and milk everyday will mature much quicker than one who has a much easier life.  It's no different in the U.S., so compare apples to apples and it's the same. 

Take a girl from Montana, who works on a farm, and a city girl from Dallas.  One has to learn responsibility by performing her choirs early each morning and then go to school and learn an education.  Whereas, the more cosmopolitian girl can skip the early morning milking or other choirs and go directly to school, much easier life.  So what do these two girls do after school?

Maturity is a product of our environment.  Rural or country girls are the equivilant of village girls in the FSU.  They tend to mature much faster than city girls.

Good post Bruno!!

Jon

[corncrowe]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Brunoito,

Viva le french? Hey dummie, I saw the picture of Galina, and personally I wouldn't have kissed her with "your lips" either. So you are a passionate guy? Try dating some nice Belguim or French girls for a change. I did.

I still date American women and they don't kiss on the first date either. But, I don't take advice from you or Photoguy because I've done better and passed on much better women than both you guys!

Jezz...I get women like these writing me and I'm not interested.

Inner beauty? Jon, do you realize Elen may read those beautiful thoughts of yours? ...

Bruno,

I think you are getting too old.  That message was hours ago.  I think if you get a young girlfriend she can help you read faster... 

  

Then you can have free time to catch up...haha!!!

Jon

[corncrowe]

Racer-

Or you might, as I am able to do, talk with the 20-25 y.o. Russian males who are banging the knickers off these girls while the dumbass middle aged American men are fantasizing about what wonderful lovers they think they are.

It'll give you a whole new perspective on the issue.

jb,

So your two step-sons are studded to conquer the whole of women in America and the FSU?  Two boys who are acting normal, and attractive, will date and doink many women before they settle down.  Does this not bring back some fond memories.

But is this to say that every eligible FSU women within an eligible age range are sleeping with your step-sons or their kindred spirits? 

It's a relief to know that women in the FSU and America are slutted to sleep around with any man who is nice to them.  Wow, so chasity is just something our parents practiced?

Thanks for the enlighted scare.  It was refreshing to hear this from a father of studs. 

P.S.  Thank goodness my two adult girls don't practice your voodoo concepts of being a young adult.

Jon

[ConnerVT]

'bout the only thing I would differ with you is the aspect of her English ability. Unfortunately, there are basically two ways girls get to know the language: (1) it's part of her job (rare) or (2) she picked it up from another AM relationship. Girls with "a plan" always have good English ability.

I tend to agree with RacerX here.  But Jack did follow up in that section about a woman's desire to learn English as a good barometer to the strength of a relationship.

My wife had studied English at her University, but her last class was about 8 years before meeting me.  Her professor also continually told her that her pronunciation was terrible (a great teaching method, isn't it?).  You can guess that our initial conversations were a bit difficult.

Three months passed between our first meeting and my return to Russia.  In that time, while also being a single mom of a 4 y.o. boy, she attended a group ESL class 2X/week, and also found a private tutor to study with once or twice more each week.  We would exchange email (in English) daily, and speak on the telephone (again, in English) several times each week.

She tells me her motivation was that we would have a common language, for there was so much she wished to speak with me about.  It was remarkable how much her English skills improved in just that 3 month period.  It showed me several things about her character, all in a good way.  Dedication.  Intelligence.  Desire.

Now, let's talk about today.  My wife still attends a 4X/week ESL class her in Vermont.  Of course, her English skills have improved.  Some might think it's because she's now in the US, and everyone will improve tremendously.  Don't believe it.

There are several other Russians in her class (as there is quite a growing Russian community here in VT).  I have had the opportunity to know some of them, and for some, learning English is just not happening.  I'm not a linguist or educator, so I do not know the cause.  Maybe over reliance in their native tongue, maybe age, maybe lack of desire.

I guess what I'm trying to say is Jack hit the nail squarely on the head, when he wrote that the ability to communicate is the key.  If the person you meet already knows English, great.  If not, it will take either a dedicated woman who can demonstrate her desire AND capability to learn, or you taking a real big gamble.

[Jack]

Tell me jb, how is discussing the maturity level of Russian women compared to American men....'me peddling a dream'?
 
jb, can you read what I wrote in my post?  How is telling men to work for there success, to figure out the method they are most comfortable with and do it, something a MOB agency owner peddling a dream would do?
 
jb, how is telling men to be realistic with their dreams, NOT to seek the model type ladies that most agencies hype, HOW am I peddling a dream?
 
jb, how is me suggesting to men to seek ladies close to there own age, something most agencies do not do (they push the unreal way of thinking that Russian women prefer older men), how is my advising men completely the opposite, an agency owner peddling a dream.
 
jb, how is me advising men to only see and meet women they can communicate with directly, women they do not need to translate letters for or need interpreters, something most agencies push (most agencies would never tell you NOT to seek only Russian women who speak English), how is me advising men to seek only ladies they can communicate with as 'an agency owner pushing a dream'?
 
jb, how can me suggesting to men to be honest with the women they are seeing, to be truthful, to act themselves, pushing a dream?
 
jb, how can me suggesting men to educate themselves, try to distinguish from the senile old men who think they know everything from the men who do know a lot, how does me suggesting to men to listen to those men who have gone before them and met a lot of ladies, made several trips, offering advice, suggestions completely opposite of most agencies, be an agency owner pushing a dream?
 
jb, how does my suggesting men to get a good photo, it will help their chances tremendously, be an agency owner pushing a dream.
 
jb, how does me disagreeing with your ludicrous statement that the average Russian woman of 23, 25 and 27 as being equally mature to an American woman of the same age (one of the stupidest things I have ever heard anyone claiming to be knowledgeable of Russian women say), be an agency owner pushing a dream.
 
jb you may not like it but I am different from most agencies. I don't think agencies should be in the middle of two people communicating. Man, I can assure you 95% of all other agencies shudder when they hear me say that. I do not, will not, be in the middle of two people communicating.
 
jb everything I write you want to put your label, "well you are an agency", this is why you say this or that, as your way of disqualifying what I say or why it makes what you say correct and my way incorrect.  jb, I say to YOU, bullshit. In reality jb you know very little. You want to come off as someone who is very knowledgeable but in reality you know very little about Russian women and the pursuit for a Russian bride. Your statement that Russian women and American women have the SAME maturity level is a great example of just how much you really know. Most of your advice is usually right on for the retards and stupid men who are pursuing a Russian bride.
 
jb, I am not peddling a dream, I am offering reality.
 
Let's see here. You met one Russian women, you married the only Russian women you ever met. You were not able, while you were single, to meet two, or three or four different Russian women. You were not truly able to compare the difference's between Russian women you were interested in because the one and only Russian woman you met was the best for you. Well that might indeed be the case. You were a very lucky man. I should have you buy my lottery tickets. But unfortunately for you, you only had the experience to meet with, to be close with, to learn a lot about, ONE Russian woman.
 
I think you can give great advice about ONE Russian woman but when it comes to Russian women in general, when it comes to all the many things a guy can do to meet lot's of ladies, your advice just sucks. You don't have actual, real life, personal and up-close real experience with more than one Russian woman. You don't have real, first-hand experience with guys meeting more than one lady because you were lucky, you only met one woman who was the best Russian woman for you, you don't have the experience to tell men how to meet more than one lady because you never did. You can offer advice as to what you think based on what other men have said, which is not bad, but you cannot offer your own personal experience advise to dating more than one woman, seeing more than one woman, because you didn't get such experience yourself.
 
Thank goodness you have the experience of these young Russian step-sons to rely on.
 
 
 
 
 

[Jim Nasium]

JB, 

I got your PM; I understand now about your motivation, so thanks for clearing things up for me. 

Actually, I didn't "see myself in this" thread and that's why I raised the question - I only saw the possibility that you were making partial or specific reference to me, and I wanted to understand this from your side.  

I don't consider myself a troubled "traveler"; far from it, actually, as others here who know me can attest to.  

I could've easily gotten married on my first trip, or any subsequent trip for that matter. But I've never been married before, and it's very important for me to do this right the first time. I've been patient, attempting to find the absolute best mutual match. 

I now believe my search is over, but I don't want to get into that here. 

Some observations about troubled travelers… 

It would seem some guys are swallowing MOB propaganda hook, line and sinker. 

On my last visit there were more than a few occasions when I would have to hear about "the type of men that were coming to Ukraine". I had heard similar stories before but this time they seemed to occur more often. 

From the agency ladies I met I heard numerous accounts laced with descriptions like "losers", "weird", "strange", "clowns" etc., and the majority of these comments were directed at Americans. Not only did I hear this from ladies, but I was hearing it from agency managers and interpreters I know as well. I have even seen it with my own eyes. 

A number of women told me they will remove or are considering removing their information from their agency because they've given up hope of meeting a desirable potential life mate through this option. 

I would even go so far as to say there is a rapidly spreading stigma that American men in particular are becoming increasingly less interesting not only as a potential life mate, but even simply to go on a meeting with.  

I also heard numerous times from agency staff that many men have very unrealistic expectations regarding the sort of woman they can attract, and when cautiously told the truth they don't want to listen. From my own observations I would tend to agree. One example of many cited more than once was about how men would get terribly angry upon learning that a woman ~25 years his junior was not interested to meet him.  

Somebody posted over on the other board that when a "good catch" shows up in town word spreads among the women at the agency he visits. Women call in and ask to meet him. I can believe that, because I experienced this myself when working with one agency. 

I've heard there was a time when being American carried a lot of weight with respect to attracting the interest of FSU ladies, but I think those days are over (at least in Kiev) and a guy better have a lot more to offer than simply the passport, especially if he wants a more "desirable" lady. 

Some may scoff at this, but I still believe the main motivation for a Ukrainian (or any FSU country?) woman to join an agency in the first place is her hope of finding a special relationship with a good and interesting man. Economic factors, IMO and based on my experience, are a distant second. In general, women the world over are first and foremost emotional creatures.  

Guys can still do well over there but they need to accurately understand their limitations and value, and most importantly, they better be able to win a woman's heart. 

[corncrowe]

Thank goodness you have the experience of these young Russian step-sons to rely on. 

Jack,

Again, you've hit it on the nail.  You and I have a long history, we've talked in person and through email for almost four years?  I learned a lot listening to you, learned a lot by meeting women from the FSU, and dating other women.

But when the authority of this board relies on a single encounter, two "russian studs", and limited exposure to the world as you and I have had, then I give up!

I thought there were some senior members who had a grasp on the realities of women and young adults.  But after reading what jb posted about his "stud" step-sons, he lost a lot of credibility with me.

Personally, I find that behavior "deplorable" and not something I would teach my children.  So, now we have a senior member who wants to persuade all older American men that they are fooling themselves by seeking a younger woman in the FSU?

God help us!

Jon

[PeeWee]

4 of the 5 RW that I have communicated with speak fluent Englsh. The one that did not speak English was costimg so much money for the interpreter that I decided not to look for a RW that did not speak English. About two years ago the lady that I am currenty dating came to visit me for a one week stay. She brough her daughter, 11 years old, with her. I spend a full day with the daughter. At the end of the day, when I returned her to her mother, the girl  told her mother, "I can't believe that I spent the whole day and only spoke English!"  Communication between two people is a chore to begin with. I decided not to exasterbate the problem by not having a common language between us.

PeeWee

[Photo Guy]

Corncrowe jon,
For those who are really 'thick', my remarks about tantric sex, etc. were meant to be taken as tongue-in-cheek sarcasm.  

Where is the Swinger's Club in Kyiv?  Which agencies supply that kind of info? Which agencies promote 'free love'?   (I'm joking) !!!!!!

[PeeWee]

Hey, is that agency Jack up there at the top of the page. Still fighting the same battles after these past many years? 3 years ago and you were telling the same true story?

PeeWee

[ConnerVT]

Jim --

What you write is very true.  It's a problem that will probably take the industry down the tubes.  And it's the MOB propaganda that is the root of the problem.  In classic Russian business practice, make the quick money on the loss of long term vitality.

 

[corncrowe]

4 of the 5 RW that I have communicated with speak fluent Englsh. The one that did not speak English was costimg so much money for the interpreter that I decided not to look for a RW that did not speak English. About two years ago the lady that I am currenty dating came to visit me for a one week stay. She brough her daughter, 11 years old, with her. I spend a full day with the daughter. At the end of the day, when I returned her to her mother, the girl  told her mother, "I can't believe that I spent the whole day and only spoke English!"  Communication between two people is a chore to begin with. I decided not to exasterbate the problem by not having a common language between us.

PeeWee

peewee,

Good decision.  I am writing an older woman from Moscow who speaks perfect English.  She is funny, attractive, and can write better prose than I...(sometimes).

What makes my previous, current, and future relationships interesting and more productive is our ability to "communicate" effectively.  Sure, I can use Prompt or another software to translate their mail, but when we need to speak on the phone I don't want a headache!

Thanks for the post!

Jon

[Jim Nasium]

Based on my experience, in general, I believe a younger aged RW (under 30) will be more mature than her American counterpart.

Of course their are always exceptions, but as a general rule this will hold true.

[Photo Guy]

If I do it all over again, I would find someone with better language skills, and I do mean 'English'. On the other hand, if things work out well, I WILL broadcast it here, as an example of good 'fate'.  :dude:

Jim, many AW that I have known were completely out of touch with what they wanted in life and did not really know what was important. I agree with you. I think the reason may be more of a need for 'survival' which contrasts with AW's spoiled existence.