Students in the USA got used to shoot

[Jazzyclassy]

There was a topic somewhere in the archive of RWD , we were talking I think about cultural differences between Russia and The USA and mostly it was focused on relations of course, but I really can not recall but the discussion moved into another direction a little bit. We talked about crimes in the Universities, at schools and colledges of the USA and Russia. So many guys attacked my point , cos I told that America is extremely dangerous and teenagers got access to guns and whenever they got depression, or watched all those horror thriller movies, they start shooting each other and that violence in the USA was almost a norm. I named several shooting disasters happened in the Universities of the USA, yet many of american men here found only one crime in Chechenian school to battle my arguments, which I consider to be ridiculous. So of course as it Always happens here the topic was closed or some of my posts were deleted and it all was forgotten.

These are your data about crime in the USA :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080214/ap_on_re_us/junior_high_shooting;_ylt=AjvVeV8TCQ7rUpR1mcOggClbIwgF

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Northern_Illinois_University_Shooting;_ylt=Aoj32od2dtI0xqQQD04Uk_dbIwgF

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Teen-shot-Calif-middle-school/ss/events/us/021508oxnardshooting;_ylt=An8lQp0d.AMP.Z8NLJarn7xbIwgF

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

Any other comments proving that Russia is much more dangerous place to live in (in comparison to the USA)  eh?

The only thing I ask KenC to restrain from commenting here as I do not want to hear his opinion  in this thread please!

[timothe]

Unlike in Russia, there is free press in the USA.  Because of that, along with the world's desire to know everything that goes on here, you hear more about the odd crimes that happen here. 

When I say "odd", I am referring to the nature of these crimes.  It is understandable that someone is twisted enough to murder someone for money or because they took their wife's love.  It's not so easy to understand why someone would shoot up a college campus or high school. 

Not that you could accurately compare the numbers, but I would be willing to guess that the murder rate in Russia per capita is higher than in the USA.  But the odd crimes like the one you posted probably don't happen very often and if they do, they aren't reported internationally. 

Jazzy, if you were honest with yourself, you would recognize that you have no idea what the crime rate is in your country or even in Moskva.  Because what the newspapers and television and internet say about it is likely to be scrubbed clean by the government before it is reported. 

[Jazzyclassy]

       Not that you could accurately compare the numbers, but I would be willing to guess that the murder rate in Russia per capita is higher than in the USA.     

Not in a million years it is higher than in the USA it is  probably the same if you talk  about the crime in general

Yet I am talking here about the students shooting each other! So do not mess up those things

[deccie]

Not in a million years it is higher than in the USA it is  probably the same if you talk  about the crime in general

Yet I am talking here about the students shooting each other! So do not mess up those things

I'm not sure the victim of crime would quite see the distinction based on the manner of their death.

Instead of the school shootings of course Russia has experienced such notorious killers as the "Chessboard Killer"

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1661084,00.html

and  The Butcher of Rostov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo

[KenC]

Of course with such a lovely invitation as you give, I will be more than happy to join in the discussion.

There was a topic somewhere in the archive of RWD , we were talking I think about cultural differences between Russia and The USA and mostly it was focused on relations of course, but I really can not recall but the discussion moved into another direction a little bit. We talked about crimes in the Universities, at schools and colledges of the USA and Russia. So many guys attacked my point , cos I told that America is extremely dangerous and teenagers got access to guns and whenever they got depression, or watched all those horror thriller movies, they start shooting each other and that violence in the USA was almost a norm. I named several shooting disasters happened in the Universities of the USA, yet many of american men here found only one crime in Chechenian school to battle my arguments, which I consider to be ridiculous. So of course as it Always happens here the topic was closed or some of my posts were deleted and it all was forgotten.

So let us get this straight.  You remember a thread in which some unnamed AM disagreed with your unsubstantiated opinion about crime in America?  And there is a moderator conspiracy to delete your posts after the threads are closed?
 

These are your data about crime in the USA :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080214/ap_on_re_us/junior_high_shooting;_ylt=AjvVeV8TCQ7rUpR1mcOggClbIwgF

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Northern_Illinois_University_Shooting;_ylt=Aoj32od2dtI0xqQQD04Uk_dbIwgF

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Teen-shot-Calif-middle-school/ss/events/us/021508oxnardshooting;_ylt=An8lQp0d.AMP.Z8NLJarn7xbIwgF

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

Any other comments proving that Russia is much more dangerous place to live in (in comparison to the USA)  eh?

Data:1 : factual information (as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation
What you have offered up as "proof" is not "data" in the true sense of the word.  These are not statistics that "prove" anything, they are 4 random stories regarding crime in America.  Because you have an impression of crime in America based on 4 news stories does not make your opinion any more valid and is a far cry from being any "proof" of anything.  Jazzy, if you want to present an idea or concept as a truth, you have to do much better than what you give us here.  There is no need for anyone to "prove" the opposite of your theory as you have not made a very strong argument that your biased opinion should be given any credibility at all.  It is still just a biased opinion from an uninformed Russian woman that has little knowledge (and zero experience) regarding America.  If you want to slam my country, as you seem so intent on doing, how about backing it up with some facts?

The only thing I ask KenC to restrain from commenting here as I do not want to hear his opinion  in this thread please!

I guess this would matter to me if it was your personal forum.  But it isn't and I don't.
KenC

[Gator]

Jazzy wrote,

Not that you could accurately compare the numbers, but I would be willing to guess that the murder rate in Russia per capita is higher than in the USA. 

     

Not in a million years it is higher than in the USA it is  probably the same if you talk  about the crime in general

The murder rate in Russia is 4 times greater than in America.

http://www.data360.org/graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id=441

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia


America does have a problem with mentally deranged students (ex-student yesterday) and access to guns.  It is sad.

I would think you would feel sympathy for the families and friends of the dead students.  Instead, you coldly make an incorrect conclusion to belittle the home country of many of your antagonists.  It makes you appear as if you have some psychological disorder.  Please stay away from guns.

[Shadow]

Gator I have good reasons to doubt the statistics. The reason is that I found another source.
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

When glanced at, it shows a similar picture, with the murder rate per capita in Russia higher as in the U.S.A.
But then I found this statistics:
TEN WORST COUNTRIES FOR MURDER (LATE-1990s)
COUNTRY
PER 100,000
(1) Columbia    84.4
(2) El Salvador   50.2
(3) Puerto Rico    41.8
(4) Brazil    32.5
(5) Albania    28.2
(6) Venezuela    25.0
(7) Russian Federation    18.0
( Ecuador    15.9
(9) Mexico    15.3
(10) Panama    14.4

 
SELECTED WORST CITIES
MURDER (LATE-1990s)
EUROPE AND USA
CITY
   
MURDERS
PER 100,000
(1) Washington, D.C., USA    69.3
(2) Philadelphia, USA   27.4
(3) Dallas, USA    24.8
(4) Los Angeles, USA    22.8
(5) Chicago, USA    20.5
(6) Phoenix, USA    19.1
(7) Moscow, Russia    18.1
( Houston, USA   18.0
(9) New York City, USA    16.8
(10) Helsinki, Finland    12.5
(11) Lisbon, Portugal      9.7
(12) San Diego, USA      8.0
(13) Amsterdam, Netherlands      7.7
(14) Belfast, N.Ireland, UK      4.4
(15) Geneva, Switzerland      4.2
(16) Copenhagen, Denmark      4.0
(17) Berlin, Germany      3.8
(18) Paris, France      3.3
(19) Stockholm, Sweden      3.0
(20) Prague, Czechoslovakia      2.9

When you look at the general tendency of crime and murder being more present in big cities and capitals, it strikes me as odd that the statistic for Moscow is as good as equal to that of the Russian Federation. This leads me to the idea that the sources are inaccurate.

For Jazzy, as you are in Germany you might want to check out the happenings in that country in the last two years. You will see that such shootings are unfortunately no longer patented by the U.S.A.

To the families and friends of those involved in the latest my sympathy and wishes that they will overcome the tragedy.

[Phil dAmore]

Also bear in mind that the media in the U.S. has a definite anti-gun bias so anytime something like this happens it gets a lot of press.

Agreed that 'news' in Russia is definitely filtered.  If it isn't how come every time there is a little 'incident' at the nuke plant near St. Petersburg I have to learn about it from CNN?

For a long time I thought it might be fun just to walk around the city with a geiger counter... but then I realized I'm probably better off not knowing.

Phil: Had a LOT more hair on top of his head when he first moved to Russia than he does now.

[deccie]

Phil: Had a LOT more hair on top of his head when he first moved to Russia than he does now.

Yeah, but how much of the hair loss is due to RW or us guys chasing them? 

[Gator]

Shadow wrote,

Gator I have good reasons to doubt the statistics.

Let’s take a another look at the sources.

Your source is the same as used in my first source – a 1990 study by the UN, my employer for two years.  UN reports such as this have been through peer reviews.   So I have faith in the statistics, yet that does not mean that they are infallible.   The key question – the reliability of the source of data for each country.  Given Russian propensity to distort, one would expect that Russian statistics would understate the correct values. 

The Wikipedia article examined a latter source of data and reported that there were “30,600 cases of homicide” in Russia in 1995 – about the same as the 28,904 reported for 1990 in the UN study.  So this suggests that the Russian statistics are correct, or there is a repeated, systematic bias.

Let us examine the US data.  One would think that the FBI would be the most reliable source of statistics.   The FBI reported a rate of 9.4 per 100,000 for 1990; however, that value includes murder and willful manslaughter so this could be a case of apples and oranges.  Interesting, FBI has reported that the rate over the past 20 years has declined from a peak of 9.8 in 1991 to 5.7 in 2006. 

The FBI reports are interesting material for people wanting to read about crime in America.  You can start here:

 http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_01.html

Anyway, I could find no other source.   So you can rely on scientific studies or adopt liberal if not emotional opinions or accept Jazzy's post – your choice, Shadow.   

[BC]

Nationmaster has a bunch of available statistics

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

[Jazzyclassy]

 I would think you would feel sympathy for the families and friends of the dead students.  Instead, you coldly make an incorrect conclusion to belittle the home country of many of your antagonists.  It makes you appear as if you have some psychological disorder.  Please stay away from guns.

          

Of course I feel sad

but what american people do to stop those things?

I just pointed that we do not have such rate of killings among students and schools, am just researching the information , am not coldly pointing out the tragedies.

[mischief]

Another thing to consider is ... there are so many people of so many nations in the US... it attracts not only the best of the world but also the worst...
Nonetheless.... I live in NYC and feel safe walking home late at night after working out in gym...

[Misha]

I'm not sure the victim of crime would quite see the distinction based on the manner of their death.

Instead of the school shootings of course Russia has experienced such notorious killers as the "Chessboard Killer"

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1661084,00.html

and  The Butcher of Rostov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo

And, let's not forget the most recent case of a criminal gang in Nizhny Tagil that killed dozens of young women and forced many more into sex slavery. The Exile ran a good feature article on the horrors that happened in this Russian city: http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=16405&IBLOCK_ID=35.

[Kuna]

Jazzy,

I know what you're saying but it's a discussion that will just get terribly messy again.

Based on what I see in the media Russia and Ukraine don't seem to have the same type of mass murders in schools and universities as the USA has... but that may just be a result of guns not being as available to students. ???

Russia and Ukraine do have terrible problems with murders though... and I'm sure you understand that. 

What I find interesting... no, a little disturbing... is the reaction of some of our American members when the topic is raised.

I won't call anyone out but I would love to be understand the way they can justify the things they say.  I'm sure they don't realise MANY other people around the world view this issue.  In Australia, we look at those mass murders in the US and virtually write them off as being "commonplace" for America now...  And that's VERY sad for a country that had it's own random mass murder not that long ago...

No matter what we say or how we try to explain it, the fact is there are far too many young people dying, and the officials in the US obviously have no idea how to deal with it (or they would be doing something about it).

I feel very sorry for all of those killed, and for their families... and I feel sorry for all of those that will be murdered in similar ways in future if America doesn't find a solution.

Instead of people justifying it it'd be refreshing to hear how they would stop it.

It's very very sad...

[deccie]

This is purely a personal view but my suspicion is the most prevalent form of violence in Russian society remains DV.
I believe there is a Russian proverb "He beats me, so he must love me"????

It's contained in a reference in at least one of my books about  Russia.

[Jazzyclassy]

Jazzy,

I know what you're saying but it's a discussion that will just get terribly messy again.

Based on what I see in the media Russia and Ukraine don't seem to have the same type of mass murders in schools and universities as the USA has... but that may just be a result of guns not being as available to students. ???

Russia and Ukraine do have terrible problems with murders though... and I'm sure you understand that. 

What I find interesting... no, a little disturbing... is the reaction of some of our American members when the topic is raised.

I won't call anyone out but I would love to be understand the way they can justify the things they say.  I'm sure they don't realise MANY other people around the world view this issue.  In Australia, we look at those mass murders in the US and virtually write them off as being "commonplace" for America now...  And that's VERY sad for a country that had it's own random mass murder not that long ago...

No matter what we say or how we try to explain it, the fact is there are far too many young people dying, and the officials in the US obviously have no idea how to deal with it (or they would be doing something about it).

I feel very sorry for all of those killed, and for their families... and I feel sorry for all of those that will be murdered in similar ways in future if America doesn't find a solution.

Instead of people justifying it it'd be refreshing to hear how they would stop it.

It's very very sad...

That is what I also wanted to say

[Shadow]

Shadow wrote,
Let’s take a another look at the sources.

Your source is the same as used in my first source – a 1990 study by the UN, my employer for two years.  UN reports such as this have been through peer reviews.   So I have faith in the statistics, yet that does not mean that they are infallible.   The key question – the reliability of the source of data for each country.  Given Russian propensity to distort, one would expect that Russian statistics would understate the correct values. 

Gator, I do not distrust the quality of research and peer review, but I did see an oddity in the statistical data that, given the vast territory of the Russian Federation, stands out as odd to me.

Trying to come up with different statictics I found:
http://www.photius.com/countries/russia/government/russia_government_crime_statistics.html

In the first quarter of 1994, Russia averaged eighty-four murders a day.

This accumulates to 30.660 a year, the figure you mention for 1995.
This statistic goes back to the CIA World Factbook.

I believe that the researchers had quite some trouble in getting data an there for decided to use available data and extrapolate it on order to include Russia. The real data could show both a higher or a lower number. In any case it has already been proven many times that the murder rate pro capita and the perceived safety of a place are not directly related.

[deccie]

Jazzy,

I know what you're saying but it's a discussion that will just get terribly messy again.

Based on what I see in the media Russia and Ukraine don't seem to have the same type of mass murders in schools and universities as the USA has... but that may just be a result of guns not being as available to students. ???

Russia and Ukraine do have terrible problems with murders though... and I'm sure you understand that. 

What I find interesting... no, a little disturbing... is the reaction of some of our American members when the topic is raised.

I won't call anyone out but I would love to be understand the way they can justify the things they say.  I'm sure they don't realise MANY other people around the world view this issue.  In Australia, we look at those mass murders in the US and virtually write them off as being "commonplace" for America now...  And that's VERY sad for a country that had it's own random mass murder not that long ago...

No matter what we say or how we try to explain it, the fact is there are far too many young people dying, and the officials in the US obviously have no idea how to deal with it (or they would be doing something about it).

I feel very sorry for all of those killed, and for their families... and I feel sorry for all of those that will be murdered in similar ways in future if America doesn't find a solution.

Instead of people justifying it it'd be refreshing to hear how they would stop it.

It's very very sad...

Kuna,

I am very suprised that the school and other workplace shootings over recent years in the US have not caused more problems for the gun lobby.

As I see it there are a three  types on fatal gun crimes committed.

1. Crimes where the gun is used an an aid or protection to commit a crime for profit. This could be anything from a hit to a gun used for armed robbery.
These guns are unlikely to be legal owned. (at least by the person committing the offence)

2. Crimes committed in a moment of rage. Some of the shootings in recent times would come into this type.
Most frequently being of course a man shooting his wife or vice versa or some of those shooting people in a workplace. Guns in this category frequently are legal.

3. Planned crimes where the intent is to kill a number of innocent people either due to some perceived slight or just to gain notoriety or just because they don't like a particular group.

Clearly "gun control" would have a limited impact on group one since they would not respect any law enforcement.
However, what surprised me about the latest spate of recent incidents - like Virginia Tech - was that the weapons were legally owned and that the person concerned had some degree of mental illness.

Why there cannot be a tightening of access to guns based on the mental state of the individual escapes me.

[Gator]

Kuna wrote,

What I find interesting... no, a little disturbing... is the reaction of some of our American members when the topic is raised.

I assume that you mean the topic of "mass murder at school."

Three Americans, residing in America, replied.  Their reaction was not indifference to the tragedy as you imply, but criticism of emotional misstatements.  So what should we do?  Should we tell jazzy that she is correct and ask her assistance for us to emigrate to Russia, which we know is a much better place to live.

By the way, the university (NIU) had a plan in place to respond to such incidents.  The plan had been practiced.  Supposedly, police intervention saved some lives, but unfortunately and sadly, five were killed plus the shooter, Steven Kazmierczak.  There is much confusion now about everything.  The police recently reported that those close to Kazmierczak said he was behaving erratically over the past two months and had "stopped taking medication" (whatever that means). 

[WmGO]

I think Jazzy was referring to the "What's wrong with America"
thread that was initiated as a result of the Va. Tech shootings.

As far as statistics go, Russia has always had a murder rate
several times the American rate. Interestingly, if you deleted
all of the black male killing black male murders from the American
statistics America's per capita murder rate statistics would plummet.
This is especially true of the U.S. cities that were mentioned like
D.C. and Philadelphia. Also, the L.A. rates are about 90% attributable to
blacks and Hispanics.

 

[Misha]

I would add that if the Russian police officers actually did their jobs, then the murder rates would likely be much higher. How many murders were classified as suicides simply because the police could not be bothered to investigate? How many people are missing and the police couldn't be bothered to look into it? How many more body dumps like the one in Nizhny Tagil will eventually be found by accident?

[ScottinCrimea]

Discussions such as these will never provide any reasonable conclusions.  I see many people citing statistics from various places, but they all seem to be at least 10 years old and even those are suspect due to the various reasons already cited.  Also, quoting statistics for the Russian Federation says nothing about the relative safeness in any one location.  It's a huge, extremely diverse country.  The same can be said for the US, as WmGo and others have noted.  Crime rates in the larger cities or the influence of minority on minority crime skew the statistics significantly and tell one nothing about the relative safety of living in, say, Platte, Nebraska.

The school shootings are indeed a tragedy and I fear that it is a trend that will continue and possibly worsen as it gets so much media attention.

[BC]

It is not guns that are ruining and ending these kids lives.  The apathy of family and society is the sole root cause.

Consider these terrible incidents as a thermometer, with temperatures rising in every country.

Access to weapons is a factor only in the amount of destruction that can be caused by a misguided individual.

Whether or not a gun is ever held, such terrible thoughts running through the minds of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of young men and women around the planet is the disgrace of a generation of parents and elders.

Shame on us.

[timothe]

Yes, I agree.  This phenomenom of school shootings is a sad commentary on society.  I'm sure there are a variety of factors that play into it, perhaps the biggest factor being that each generation seems to be more ignorant than the previous generation about the value of life.  Abortion, Euthanasia, War, Movies and Television drama, Cloning....the list goes on.  Couple that with the "reality show" mentality of everyone wanting to have a voice and here we are. 

I don't think there are any simple solutions, frankly.  Seeing consequences like the one yesterday at a school where I know people who's children attend makes me sad and angry at the same time.