Citizenship vs. second Green card

[aikorob]

Guys,
N. has been talking to the ladies on various RW forums, and a majority of them are telling her it is better to apply for citizenship rather than the second greencard.
Their reasons are mostly economic---the cost of greencard, work permit, new biometrics; as well as the possible interruption of work and life if she doesn't get the second greencard right away.
The benefits I came up with were a little less mercenary--voting being at the top of the list.
What are your thoughts?

N. actually thinks citizenship would be better, but she is unsure if she would lose her Ukrainian citizenship or not. She is totally unwilling to lose her property and other rights back in Odessa.

[Bruce]

I think it depends how you brought her over.  I believe with a K-1 you need five years with green card before you apply so its 2 (apply 90 days prior to expiration) and then get the second greencard.  After three more years of the second greencard you apply for citizenship.  By the time the second greencard is running out she should get citizenship at the rate things have been going for many of the gals anyway.  William III - check to make sure I am not 

I believe she can have two citizenships and go to Ukraine on her Ukrainian and come back in to the USA on her USA passport.  I see so many of them doing it, why not your wife to?   I actually think it is more of a problem on the USA side, but it seems nobody probes too hard ie. governments on this issue.

[aikorob]

http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/M-476.pdf

3 years marriage to USC

[William3rd]

FIRST eligibility for naturalization occurs in the 90 days prior to the third anniversary of the initial grant of residency for marriage to a USC.

The marriage must still be viable. For all other categories, it is the 90 days prior to the fifth anniversary.

Bruce, you are part right in what you said. Marriage to a USC usually gives birth to conditional residency for 2 years-if the interview and grant is less than 2 years from the underlying marriage. Then the conditions must be removed. A ten year card is then issued.

Keep in mind that the alien doesnt have to be a US citizen if residency meets her needs.

[Admin]

Guys,
N. has been talking to the ladies on various RW forums, and a majority of them are telling her it is better to apply for citizenship rather than the second greencard.
Their reasons are mostly economic---the cost of greencard, work permit, new biometrics; as well as the possible interruption of work and life if she doesn't get the second greencard right away.
The benefits I came up with were a little less mercenary--voting being at the top of the list.
What are your thoughts?

N. actually thinks citizenship would be better, but she is unsure if she would lose her Ukrainian citizenship or not. She is totally unwilling to lose her property and other rights back in Odessa.

In this case, Russia and Ukraine are different. The US now allows dual citizenship. Russia, too, allows dual citizenship. Ukraine, however, legally does NOT allow dual citizenship with the US, and the legal requirement is that your wife renounce her Ukrainian citizenship to become a US citizen.

That does not necessarily mean she will lose her property ownership rights in Ukraine, since foreigners ARE allowed to own some types of property. As I understand it, a foreigner is legally allowed to own an apartment, but they are currently prohibited from owning real estate, as is the land itself. This would preclude foreign ownership of a dacha, for example.

I further understand those laws are changing - and may already be changed - to be more flexible with foreign ownership of land.

FWIW

- Dan

[William3rd]

Hey kids- if you dont file to remove the conditions on her conditional residency, you could end up with your wife in immigration proceedings as she drops out of status at the end of the second year. You do not have some magical option to forego the 751 filing and move straight to citizenship applications here.

[Misha]

N. actually thinks citizenship would be better, but she is unsure if she would lose her Ukrainian citizenship or not. She is totally unwilling to lose her property and other rights back in Odessa.

Why would she lose her property? Worst case scenario she simply sells the property and wires the money back to the United States where she can invest it or simply keep it in a bank account.

[Bruce]

William III - follow up question for you.............so what happens in a case like my wife who took three years three months until the issue of a two year green card after a K-1 visa ie. when can she apply for citizenship? 

"Marriage to a USC usually gives birth to conditional residency for 2 years-if the interview and grant is less than 2 years from the underlying marriage."  I suppose the key word in your comment above is the word usually.  I assume we could apply for citizenship a year after filing for removal of conditions, but I would like to hear your expert opinion on this.

Thanks,

[Jet]

Bruce as it was explained to me, the "clock" for citizenship starts when the greencard is initially issued. The fact that the first two years are conditional doesn't have any adverse effect, it's still three years from initial approval (2 conditional + 1 unconditional).

Incidentally, the immigration officer in WPB this week mentioned something I had read several years ago - Since you've already been married 2 years at the time of adjudication, you should expect to bypass the "two year conditional" requirement, they *should* issue a regular 10 yr card. Going back over the INA I CANNOT find that wording in there any longer, so I'm not sure if it's another case of bad advice from USCIS or not. (I can't imagine they'd willingly screw themselves out of another $545 fee  )

[aikorob]

Jet-you are right as to when the clock starts. 3 years from initial approval.

William3rd--N. knows of a lady here in ATL who was going to go for citizenship---but she did not apply for conditional removal (that was 3 years ago)--now she has to go through all proceedings to get current on all documents, fees, etc. before she can apply for citizenship. Big mess because now she also needs new docs from Ukraine to file here; and their tax guys are wanting to know why she hasn't filed anything in last few years.

Gabaub-according to her, only Ukrainian citizens can own land--and hers now fronts the main highway from Odessa to Kiev :usdeyes: She wants to hold onto it for a few more years at least.

[William3rd]

Jet- my ex-wife and I skipped the 2 year card bc I waited a while to file and my secretary didnt provide our original marriage certificate so we had to send it in the office after interview.

The result was that we went over the 2 year line without the approval. I did a supervisory inquiry 2 weeks after crossing the line. The card arrived (10 year) three weeks later.

Aikorob- your lady's friend is lucky she didnt end up AOSing again in front of an immigration judge. USCIS has been pretty easy going on that 751 issue but they are now giving signed notice letters to the alien at the interview to inform them of the 2 year requirement and the posibility of removal proceedings.

[Admin]

Jet-you are right as to when the clock starts. 3 years from initial approval.

William3rd--N. knows of a lady here in ATL who was going to go for citizenship---but she did not apply for conditional removal (that was 3 years ago)--now she has to go through all proceedings to get current on all documents, fees, etc. before she can apply for citizenship. Big mess because now she also needs new docs from Ukraine to file here; and their tax guys are wanting to know why she hasn't filed anything in last few years.

Gabaub-according to her, only Ukrainian citizens can own land--and hers now fronts the main highway from Odessa to Kiev :usdeyes: She wants to hold onto it for a few more years at least.

Yeah - sort of. I found the details I was looking for, here -- http://www.ukrchicago.com/tem/Business/property.htm

This is from the Ukrainian Consulate in Chicago. The information is dated, as it refers to things changing in January of 2007 - but I do not believe it has, in fact, changed yet.

Ownership of land

The applicable Ukrainian legislation governs private, municipal and state ownership to land. In general, according to Ukrainian law, land may be held in ownership, in temporary use (lease) or in permanent use. The Land Code applies to all types of land in Ukraine and all participants of land relations (including Ukrainian and foreign individuals and legal entities, state and municipal authorities); it governs the legal relations in the area of the ownership, use of and transactions of land in Ukraine.

Under the Land Code, all land in Ukraine, in addition to the distinction between agricultural and non-agricultural land, is classified under the following categories contingent upon its use: (i) agricultural land; (ii) land for dwellings and public development (construction); (iii) land used for industry, transportation, communications, defence and other purposes; (iv) land used for environmental protection; (v) land for therapeutic use; (vi) land for recreational use; (vii) land for historical-cultural purposes; (viii) forested land; (ix) land for water resources; and (x) reserve land.

The Land Code restricts the sale of agricultural land until January 1, 2007. Ukrainian individuals and legal entities are entitled to buy most types of land. Foreign individuals, legal entities and foreign states are allowed to own, use and transact with certain non-agricultural land in Ukraine, but are explicitly prohibited from owning agricultural land. Foreign legal entities may own only non-agricultural land: within the city limits, if they purchase buildings or structures or land plots for construction purposes; and beyond the city limits, if they purchase buildings or structures. Ukrainian legislation contains special procedures for the acquisition of state-owned and municipal land by foreign legal entities. State or municipal land may be sold to a foreign legal entity if such an entity establishes and registers its permanent establishment in the form of a commercial representative office in Ukraine. State-owned land plots are sold to foreign legal entities by the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine upon approval of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. Municipal land plots are sold to foreign legal entities by the relevant local councils with approval of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine. Joint venture enterprises established with participating foreign legal entities and individuals acquire the title to non-agricultural land plots according to the established procedure for foreign legal entities.

If the land is privately owned, in order to buy land, the seller and the buyer must enter into a sale-purchase agreement, which must be notarized and registered. Unless the company already owns the building situated on the land plot in question, any land owned by the state or municipality can be sold only at auction.

The primary restriction seems to be that foreign owners are not allowed to own land deemed agricultural.

It might be worthwhile for your wife to check with authorities to; (a) see if there has been any change in the laws yet - they clearly signalled their intent to change it, and (b) determine what classification her land is presently (if she does not already know).

FWIW

- Dan

[Ronnie]

Incidentally, the immigration officer in WPB this week mentioned something I had read several years ago - Since you've already been married 2 years at the time of adjudication, you should expect to bypass the "two year conditional" requirement, they *should* issue a regular 10 yr card. Going back over the INA I CANNOT find that wording in there any longer, so I'm not sure if it's another case of bad advice from USCIS or not. (I can't imagine they'd willingly screw themselves out of another $545 fee  )

Jet, the WPB officer was correct about the bypass.  Not because it is spelled out that way in the INA.  The basic presumption is a ten-year card, restricted only when the marriage is less than 2 years duration at the time of the final adjudication.  Where 2 years have not elapsed the card must carry the two-year restriction per INA 216.

[Bruce]

Ronnie, all I know is that we were married 3 years three months prior to arrival of a green card for my wife and it is a 2 year.  A friend of ours wife in Arizona from what I understand just got hers after a three year four month wait and it was a ten year green card.  So, it is just another example of the BCINS having no idea what they are doing.  I hope Jet gets a ten year.  I am happy my wife even got a two year.  I am just glad Gonzalez is out and Mukasey is in, because I believe Gonzalez and complete paralysis and incompetence at the justice department was what was holding up all these gals. 

[Ronnie]

Bruce,
The officer in charge of your case made an error.  You would be wise to make and infopass appointment, go in and point this out to them and get it corrected.

Otherwise you'll be subject to the fees associated with the removal of conditions.

In our case, we were married 1 year and 11 months when we had the interview, but when the card was finally approved we were at the 2 year, 7 month mark and it came without the two-year restriction.  I was actually suprised the USCIS got it right since they erred in my stepson's case in aging him out.

[Ronnie]

To address the OP's question.  Or perhaps summarize the answers..
If N. has a two year GC then applying for citizenship in lieu of condition removal is not an option since the removal must occur at two years and the citizenship takes a minimum of 3 year before application then another year or more for the swearing of the oath of allegiance.

Wm mentioned that the GC might fulfill her needs.  Besides voting there are some other advantages to citizenship and the US passport.  1) greater freedom to travel without visas; 2) no requirement to report changes of address to the government; 3) no risk of deportation; 4) Ability to get certain jobs that require citizenship.  There are others of course, but these 4 just came to mind.

[Bruce]

William III - worth another infopass or not?

[Jet]

Bruce,
I'll let William3rd speak for himself, but Ronnie's mention of 216 prompted me to go back and research it one more time. Below is what I found and it looks pretty cut and dry that they made an error. This is what I had stumbled across a long time ago but couldn't find again until now:

Conditional residence is given for two years, if the parties were married for less than two years on the day of adjustment or admission to lawful residence. INA 216 (a) (1) and (g). The statute requires that the parties to the marriage submit a joint petition to remove the conditional basis of the status, within the last 90 days of the status. Failure to do so results in the loss of the status, at the end of the two-year period.

INA Section 216
 Sec. 216. [8 U.S.C. 1186a]

(a) In general.-

(1) Conditional basis for status.-Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, an alien spouse (as defined in subsection (g)(1)) and an alien son or daughter (as defined in subsection (g)(2)) shall be considered, at the time of obtaining the status of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, to have obtained such status on a conditional basis subject to the provisions of this section.
(g) Definitions.-In this section:

(1) The term "alien spouse" means an alien who obtains the status of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (whether on a conditional basis or otherwise)-

(A) as an immediate relative (described in section 201(b) ) as the spouse of a citizen of the United States,

(B) under section 214(d) as the fiancee or fiancé of a citizen of the United States, or (C) under section 203(a)(2) as the spouse of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, by virtue of a marriage which was entered into less than 24 months before the date the alien obtains such status by virtue of such marriage, but does not include such an alien who only obtains such status as a result of section 203(d).

[William3rd]

OK- we are talking about the old marriage fraud act. Cross the 2 year line of duration of marriage and you are supposed to get a ten year card if the case is adjudicated after that date. This only applies to marriages to USC.

In some countries Naturalization will terminate the alien's ability to own real property or to freely sell real property.

[Son of Clyde]

It is my understanding that citizenship is not mandatory?
Most foreign born US residents would most likely wish to apply, but I would imagine some could live in the US forever, renewing their green cards every 10 years.
I know a woman from Holland that has done this and has lived in the US since 1967. She is in her mid 70's now and for some reason is reluctant to renew this time around. Is USCIS creating some problems for longtime US residents?

[krimster]

My wife applied and received US citizenship in 2004, we were married in 1999.  In 2004 we took a long sabbatical in Ukraine and ended up staying there for three years.  My wife used her Ukrainian passport in Ukraine even voted in the elections, Ukraine not surprisingly had no clue she was also a US citizen.  She also bought and sold property on her Ukrainian passport.

There are a host of advantages for her having US citizenship, visa free travel to Europe for one, and a cessation of any future immigration issues in the USA.
If you ever plan on living in Ukraine for an extended period or buy/sell real estate there she'd want to keep and maintain her Ukrainian passport, might be technically illegal by Ukrainian rules, but it's always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission...

[tfcrew]

Was researching 'U.S. citizenship' and will bump this thread as the most pertinent ....
There has been little change in the N-400 application except the fees of course and  then whatever is economically viable.
Your lady can file for citizenship after 3 years of residency if she has been married and living with you during that time.
Or...
She can just file after 5 years of residency regardless.
As I mentioned above, all these fees keep going up, so citizenship is the most practical approach.
The main thing with us here is that Svetlana's Ukrainian passport expires in April '10 and then what? Re-new it [which I think requires returning to her original OVIR office] or file the N-400 in advance?
She and her son [who lives in NYC] own their respective flats in Odessa so she wonders about that.
There is also the matter of Ukrainian retirement benefits [when she is eligible] that she is concerned about.
About 'renouncing' former citizenships...I believe that is [or should be] understood  when U.S. citizenship is pledged.
I'll post some links later and keep this thread updated...........
Karl

[ScottinCrimea]

Your wife can renew her passport through the Ukrainian consulate in NYC or SF.  As has been stated before, although Ukrainian law does not allow dual citizenship, she can keep her Ukrainian passport and they are none the wiser.  She is not required to report this to them, nor is the US, as they do allow dual citizenship.