political wives?

[Ranetka]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake#List_of_Donors

With regards to the US generousity please check the above link. Took me 3 min to find the list of donors for Tsunamy releif (just as an example). US indeed gave the biggest amount, but the data on the link is the percentage of money given to Gross national product with shows what part of  income people are ready to give away. (I think it is a better measure). You guys are behind nearly all developed countries. You gave about the same amount as Czech Republic.

Permille of GNP Ausralia 2.44
                    Qatar    1.43
                    .........
                    US        0.26
               Czech Rep   0.22

To be honest, there is no info re Russia. But we do not shout everywhere how much money we give to other countries.

[Gator]

Ranetka,

I admit that some of the actions listed in your prior post were very regretable.  Will you admit that all the events listed in 1953-1983 were in response to communist initiatives, an ideology conflicting with the ways of the Western world?

Question for you.  Only one ideology could eventually prevail in the world.  Should it be capitalism and democracy?   Or would the world be a better place if the Soviet style of communism had prevailed?

[Ranetka]

Ranetka,

I admit that some of the actions listed in your prior post were very regretable.  Will you admit that all the events listed in 1953-1983 were in response to communist initiatives, an ideology conflicting with the ways of the Western world?

Question for you.  Only one ideology could eventually prevail in the world.  Should it be capitalism and democracy?   Or would the world be a better place if the Soviet style of communism had prevailed?

1. No, I will not. I do not think it is possible to tell which country was responding. How do you know it was not the other way around?

2. I do not think there will ever be only one ideology. There is a saying "It is very difficult to establish a democracy when the majority is against it". (something like that) There is a huge muslim world for example or China which is not at all like western democracy.

3. As someone who had lived in the Soviet Union, then in capitalist Russia then in well established western democracy my vote goes for the Soviet Union. I would be very thankful if we do not discuss this, in my experience such discussions only lead to arguments.
.........
The only thing I really dislike about Americans (nearly all I met), they are losing critical mind when thinking about their country. It is an admirable quality but very annoying.

[I/O]

Those were Soviets, not Russians. 

Really?

Don't you know the difference!

Russians have better forgettories?

If you do, please tell me because I don't know. 

If you don't know by your age, don't worry, I don't think it is likely to present major issues.

The only difference I can see is that the former had the ability to spend much more on military power.

They didn't have the ability (Financial), they simply kept doing so and that is what ultimately brought the show to a grinding halt.

I/O

[Ranetka]

Really?

I/O

Out of 70 years of the Soviet Union existence, it was ruled

31 years by Georgian
11 years by Ukrainian
28 years by Russians

May be this will help you to understand the difference between Russian and Soviet. (Why do you not start bashing Ukraine or Georgia?)

[I/O]

Out of 70 years of the Soviet Union existence, it was ruled

31 years by Georgian
11 years by Ukrainian
28 years by Russians

May be this will help you to understand the difference between Russian and Soviet.

Do I glean from that that all people are as is their ruler? IE: A Russian under soviet rule with a Georgian leader is as a Georgian? I don't think too many Russians would buy that one.

(Why do you not start bashing Ukraine or Georgia?)

Who is bashing? Nobody is bashing. Some here are being super sensitive and denying reality. The thread title presumes to explore how much knowledge/interest/involvement there is of politics among our Russian wives.

I/O

[deccie]

Out of 70 years of the Soviet Union existence, it was ruled

31 years by Georgian
11 years by Ukrainian
28 years by Russians

May be this will help you to understand the difference between Russian and Soviet. (Why do you not start bashing Ukraine or Georgia?)

That is purely an attempt at passing responsibility.
It is like saying no Russian benefited themselves under Stailn's rule.

Even a dictator needs lackies in order to maintain power and it was RUSSIANS (amongst others) who decided to occupy that role.

Those RUSSIANS need to be accountable for those actions and accept responsibility for those actions.

[Ranetka]

That is purely an attempt at passing responsibility.
It is like saying no Russian benefited themselves under Stailn's rule.

Even a dictator needs lackies in order to maintain power and it was RUSSIANS (amongst others) who decided to occupy that role.

Those RUSSIANS need to be accountable for those actions and accept responsibility for those actions.

I do not think I understand what you are saying , sorry. My point was I disagree when people are puting responcibility exclusively on Russia and Russians for what was done in soviet times. That is how I understood I/O post.

What I think about Soviet politics is a completely different matter and I prefer not to discuss it here at all.

I/O, thanks for reminding me the purpose of this thread. I forgot all about it while reading your post devoted to JazzyClassy.

[Lit_1nce]

The only thing I really dislike about Americans (nearly all I met), they are losing critical mind when thinking about their country. It is an admirable quality but very annoying.

I think that is an individual thing.. For instance, ranting about my distaste about the current administration, and policies of the government is something I do frequently. (although not so much in this particular forum)

I am appalled at how some parts of the world has changed their view on the individual American.. There was a time when people you met while traveling, treated you with such kindness just for being an American.. A good part of that is now gone.. Mostly do to our foreign policies.. (our Sec of State... what a piece of work she is.. Foreign relations mean diddley squat to the current administration)

[Eduard]

Yes, it's amazing how people's perception of America changed in Russia in just a few years. They went from admiration to a sarcastic feeling of superiority and in some cases outright hate. I believe that these are the fruites of the Russian government's propaganda efforts. As soon as the government took control of the media - anti-American propaganda began...Amazingly most Russians don't realise that the majority of positive changes, systems, infrastructure models, marketing methods, financial models and even words are borrowed from America and the English language!
I remember a few years back, when my father was still alive he asked me: "Son, you've been gone for so many years, how do you know all our latest slang words like WOW, DISCOUNT, REALTOR, etc?"

[KenC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake#List_of_Donors

With regards to the US generousity please check the above link. Took me 3 min to find the list of donors for Tsunamy releif (just as an example). US indeed gave the biggest amount, but the data on the link is the percentage of money given to Gross national product with shows what part of  income people are ready to give away. (I think it is a better measure). You guys are behind nearly all developed countries. You gave about the same amount as Czech Republic.

Permille of GNP Ausralia 2.44
                    Qatar    1.43
                    .........
                    US        0.26
               Czech Rep   0.22

To be honest, there is no info re Russia. But we do not shout everywhere how much money we give to other countries.

Ranetka,
You have made many good and valid points in this thread, but this is not one of them.  You think that this is the "best" way to measure only because it is the only way to possibly discredit American generousity.  Our dirty money sure spends as well as anyone's.
KenC

[KenC]

Yes, it's amazing how people's perception of America changed in Russia in just a few years. They went from admiration to a sarcastic feeling of superiority and in some cases outright hate. I believe that these are the fruites of the Russian government's propaganda efforts. As soon as the government took control of the media - anti-American propaganda began...Amazingly most Russians don't realise that the majority of positive changes, systems, infrastructure models, marketing methods, financial models and even words are borrowed from America and the English language!
I remember a few years back, when my father was still alive he asked me: "Son, you've been gone for so many years, how do you know all our latest slang words like WOW, DISCOUNT, REALTOR, etc?"

Eduard,
Good point.  I also see Russia becoming more and more like America over the years.  Maybe the negative propaganda is the only way for Russia to distance themselves from America?

When my wife first arrived, we had many many discussions regarding misinformation generated by both American and Russian governments.  I told her that I thought the truth was some where in the middle.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Now it really started to be funny

I agree I have problems with expressing my opinion in a more polite way , but well it takes time to learn

Even though no matter my opinion, I have it and many here wanted to make me feel ashamed of how I think and feel and assume from this or that source of information , it is my private view.

about Politkovskaya I never told that her murder was all justified or anything, all I know about her is that she was working for the USA and was financed by USA government, but I never wish anyone death and never will.

Sudz funny conversation you wrote up there , but very predictable for an american person

The aim of some very horrible people I do not know even how to call them somebody up above who rule our lives and who dictate us which way to go and which views to follow is to make people think one way and they kill such people like me cos I have my own point of view , even though it was influenced partially by some maybe mass media reviews, and by my perception of it , am not sitting and watching telly all day long I have no time, I wake up at 6 and come home at 21.00 . So at the minute my opinion is solid and am not gonna make excuses to anyone about it, if that's wrong let it be wrong
You think how you think .

Every nation has failed and successed at some point in politics and in international relations between countries.

I agree with Ranetka about this

          The only thing I really dislike about Americans (nearly all I met), they are losing critical mind when thinking about their country. It is an admirable quality but very annoying.        

my idealistic views will never suit this corrupted world , so am not gonna bother with arguing about political issues anyway

[Jet]

There was a time when people you met while traveling, treated you with such kindness just for being an American..

While in London in '02 we took a taxi back to the hotel. The driver misunderstood where I asked to be dropped and presuming he knew where we were headed he turned and took us a good bit out of the way. I corrected him and when he dropped us off in front of the hotel he was falling all over himself apologizing and telling me "no charge, the ride is on me". Needless to say I was really impressed and payed him anyway, with a decent tip. As I recounted this inspiring story to my buddy who lives in Taunton, he just rolled his eyes and laughed. "Stupid git probably had sh!te in his britches worrying whether the yank was gonna sue him for f*ckin' up!" 

[Ronnie]

I/O, your quote, "better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" is one of the many bits of wit and wisdom left by America's 16th president, Abe Lincoln.

He said something else too that is appropriate in this discussion of hatred toward the US (I call it resentment) by countries with dictators who are (as dictators often do) trying to divert attention by blaming external forces for their own internal problems:  Lincoln said, "Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built."

Resentment is manifested by a desire to pull down the "house" of another.  Obviously, that emotion would be better channeled into building up one's own "house." One of the frustrating things for me as an American is seeing in my travels a complete indifference toward improving one's own neighborhood in many poor countries like Russia, Ukraine, India, Mexico...you name it.  There are able bodied folks who sit there in the middle of debris without ever a thought of grabbing a broom or shovel.  How hard would it be to take some initiative? 

We have similar attitudes in some of our inner cities in America.  I don't get it.  Are paint, brooms and buckets beyond their ablity to acquire..so they sit in the mess complaining about their misfortune and resenting others and their local government? People can't wait for their corrupt leaders to come into their neighborhoods and do these things for them. 

Ranetka, the chronology of interventions you pasted from your favorite Marxist website (Ben Frank?) simply shows what everyone already knows - no government has a sqeaky clean history. Even pacifist Sweden has been an agressor in the past!  But most of what you listed was counter-intervention and you know it.

As a Marxist you are frustrated by the success of free-market capitalism over communism and undertandably struggling to justify your view.  And, as any Marxist, you can only do so by taking jabs at America.  In today's world there is simply no way to justify holding on to a Marxist/Leninist ideology on it's merits.  It's been a grand experiment that didn't work.  But you can see the world differently if you like...  Again, it's in the nature of things for one man to see things the opposite of another.

While we can agree that all people should share of their bounty, talents and time, it can only happen out of goodwill and generosity; not by government fiat and not at the point of a bayonet.  When the world is perfected in her goodwill, only then can each person work for the common good.  Until then, the next best thing is each person to have the freedom and opportunity to build his own "house" for himself and his family and doing so within the bounds of limited social norms we call laws.

[America's] defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.   - Abraham Lincoln

[BC]

Ranetka,

I admit that some of the actions listed in your prior post were very regretable.  Will you admit that all the events listed in 1953-1983 were in response to communist initiatives, an ideology conflicting with the ways of the Western world?

Question for you.  Only one ideology could eventually prevail in the world.  Should it be capitalism and democracy?   Or would the world be a better place if the Soviet style of communism had prevailed?

Gator,

Not stepping into Ranetka's shoes but would like to share my thoughts on your post.

I do not think ideology in itself has much to do with determining which system is better or not, but much more about how selected leaders use or abuse their powers..  and there is enough abuse to spread around any political system.

Captalism/Democracy and Communists/Socialists have been tough competitors for many decades to the detriment of even their own populations.  One could say that if one side or the other had not thrown in the towel it is likely that this planet would be glowing and with cockroaches as the basis for new 'earthlings' in a few million years.

In Europe we enjoy a bit of a mix, and I think it is a good one.

[I/O]

Resentment is manifested by a desire to pull down the "house" of another.  Obviously, that emotion would be better channeled into building up one's own "house."

  This is one of the things which annoys me immensely within my own country. We call it the "Tall Poppy Syndrone". (Explained) Cut down anyone (A Poppy in the field) who rises above the average, because the cutter hasn't got what it takes to compete on even terms, usually a result of apathy.

I/O

[BC]

[America's] defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.   - Abraham Lincoln

I took a long hard look at this quote.. and the part I highlighted jumped out at me. Putting my tiny feet in old Abe's shoes I do not feel a 'call to arms', simply more like a live by example, spread the word kind of thing.

Like the Ben Franklin quote a few pages back, these very wise men with economy of words and simplistic terms made very valid and forward looking statements, after all they address goals and not necessarily the state of affairs that existed when written.

I am confident the last thing in the world these two men wanted was to create war and can understand how some today consider the 'spirit' damaged.

[KenC]

This is one of the things which annoys me immensely within my own country. We call it the "Tall Poppy Syndrone". (Explained) Cut down anyone (A Poppy in the field) who rises above the average, because the cutter hasn't got what it takes to compete on even terms, usually a result of apathy.

I/O

I/O,
Your "tall poppy syndrone" is really not off topic at all.  We have discussed "crabs in a bucket" here many times in reference to fsu people jealously condemning others for getting ahead.  Some of the thoughts posted here fall into that category.

It has been long forgetten now, but much earlier in this thread I wrote how Lena debunks Russian propaganda regarding America with her Mom almost on a daily basis.  Lena gets off the phone shaking her head over the goofy ideas her Mom has picked up back in the Motherland.
KenC

[Misha]

about Politkovskaya I never told that her murder was all justified or anything, all I know about her is that she was working for the USA and was financed by USA government, but I never wish anyone death and never will.

Jazzy, can you provide more information? What do you have to substantiate your claim that Politkovskaya was financed by the United States government. How was she working for the United States? She was a journalist working for Russian newspapers. That is not working for the United States. She published books in Russian, and some were translated in English and published in English. Is this working for the United States? How exactly was she being financed by the United States? It would be interesting to know how you came to your conclusions. Is this the message that is being communicated on Russian television? 

[BC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

[Gator]

Ranetka wrote,

As someone who had lived in the Soviet Union, then in capitalist Russia then in well established western democracy my vote goes for the Soviet Union. I would be very thankful if we do not discuss this, in my experience such discussions only lead to arguments.

I will not argue your choice.  You are entitled to your own opinion.  Unlike most here (men and women), your opinion is founded in direct experience with all three systems. 

My experience is limited almost totally to the third plus some exposure while interacting and visiting the second over six years.  My experience with the first is one week, plus all the "accurate" reports from my government in the 1960s and 70s.  Somehow I feel that American propaganda back then is about as accurate as the Russian propaganda of today.

As an example, I believed all RW looked like a combination of Olympic shot putters and Nikita Khrushchev and could work all day digging battlefield trenches.   :hairraising: Not even the film "From Russia with Love" could dispel my impression because the actress playing the role of the RW beauty was an Italian.  The cute fair-haried dyev from the 1959 Soviet film, Ballad of a Soldier, shown years later at my university, was obviously a fake.


My trip 20 years later in 1987 sure changed my mind.  Seeing is believing.

[Eduard]

Jazzy, can you provide more information? What do you have to substantiate your claim that Politkovskaya was financed by the United States government. How was she working for the United States? She was a journalist working for Russian newspapers. That is not working for the United States. She published books in Russian, and some were translated in English and published in English. Is this working for the United States? How exactly was she being financed by the United States? It would be interesting to know how you came to your conclusions. Is this the message that is being communicated on Russian television? 

The Bottom Line:
Russia is in the hands of KGB. They understand that the Socialist system doesn't work and are not going back to it, yet they are using the same old school Soviet methods of propaganda and dealing with any kind of dissent and opposition political or philosophycal.
What better way than accuse Politkovskaya of being an American puppet to justify her murder? Russians are used to having split emotions about Russia. They will talk one way about her among themselves, criticizing it, saying how they despise almost everything about it, yet if someone foreign will say something critical about Russia, Russians will unite and defend their motherland right or wrong. Many of us prefer to live outside of Russia though, and I'm really curious as to how many actually left Russia and are permanently living in the western world (US and Europe)? Any stats on that? I recently found out from Odnoklassniki.ru site that out of 40 people in my class at my elementary school, at least 9 are living outside of Russia (5 of them in the USA) This number might even be larger, but not all 40 of my classmates registered with the site so I just don't know where they are.
I found that once you live in the West for a few years it is very difficult to get used to life in Russia again. Personally, the ONLY reason I would ever want to live there if I wanted to have many girlfriends and just be a player. But at this point of my life, being 47yo I really enjoy my family life and raising my daughter here in the good old USA with all her problems.

[mischief]

Goodness, what a waste of cyber space. In the latter stages, every post seemed to start with "Jazzy........". I give the woman some credit for engaging so many people's attention. Perhaps she is not so "UnRussian" as I know one or two others with the ability to engage a group of guys............................however, it is usually with something other than their political opinions.

Americas interventionist policy............hmmm who jumped into East Germany, made the place a misery and then refused to repatriate it's own troops to their homeland 50 years later? Who jumped into Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania (And is hated by many of the natives to this day)? Who jumped into Afghanistan and got it's arse well and truly kicked in the process? Who jumped into the Caucuses and still has schit all over it's face? Shhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone that it was/is dear old mother Russia.

Now let's sit back honestly and consider if one or the other sides has it hands clean? Even a dumbarse like me can see that answer.

Current economics? Oh dear me, this is too funny. Most would say that Russia is currently in the best shape it has been in for umpteen decades and most would say that America is perhaps in the worst shape, or heading that way in the same umpteen decades. It's a bit like talking percentages vs quantum numbers. Living standards and opportunity are still 1000's of times better in America than they are in Russia. I have no desire to, but I could live in either country as I can see the positives and negatives of both however when it comes to getting something done, there is no comparison between the two and IMO there never will be. If I want to achieve and get on, America would win in the first 1 metre of the race. No argument, no comparison.

Now, to bring this back to the thread title. Political wives, or political opinions of wives...................ho hum. Sorry KenC, but JC's opinions are not untypical of Russian Women. (Whoa there Jazz, don't think I am giving you a vote of approval for your opinions.......read on) The very vast majority of RW, I know, have met and hear opinions from are very similar in so far as they are almost completely ignorant of real politics. They have a few scant reports from a sanitised media to base an opinion on. They further have the disadvantage regarding international politics of being indoctrinated over a long period of time with the isolationist thinking being pumped down their throats by the Russian propaganda machine.

Jazz, maybe you will take this on board, I have had some similar discussions with my wife and she was/is quite dogmatic with her opinions on given subjects regarding other countries, yes, including America. Countries which she has never and probably will never set foot in. Bottom line is she hasn't a clue and I have told her that in so many words and further I advise her to not speak on matter she knows nothing about, but rather, ask questions and thereby show the real value of her education and decency by remaining silent, learning and forming a factually rather than emotionally based opinion. You know something like that old saying "Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". I am finding it interesting to watch her change her view and thinking somewhat.

She is now starting to see the good things in Australia may not be as good as some imagine, the bad things in Australia are not as bad as some imagine, the good things in Russia may also have a sting in the tail and the bad things are not as bad as some will have you believe. "But my cousin was in America and he couldn't believe all the fat people he saw", so therefore it is a known fact that all Americans are fat. (Sarcasm intended) Thus I pulled some old photos for her to review. 2 in USA which were simply street shots showing some of the cutest female arses you would ever see and two in Russia showing some of the fattest people you would wish to imagine. What's the point? She was spruking on a subject of which she had NO first hand knowledge. Much like very many Russian women do when they talk international politics. Think about it. Point is, when it comes to discussing international and in particular, American politics, just because many Russian women will share your opinion, and I agree, they do, it does not mean they have a clue what they are talking about.

Jazz, whilst I have found much of this thread amusing to read, your comments and the reactions thereto included, there was one post of yours I found seriously disturbing. Your almost justifying the journalist's assassination based on your view of her being a supporter of America. Whether she was a supporter or not is not the point I take issue with. The point I take issue with is that there is NO justification under any circumstances for political assassinations in a civilised country. Russia claims to be a civilised country, however such acts clearly cast a very heavy cloud over whether or not that is the case, and your comment, whether intended or not is suggestive that justification for such uncivilised butchery is deeper rooted in the thinking of many Russians than I would have cared to imagine. I feel strongly enough about that comment to feel somewhat sickened by it.

Patriotism is one thing, a thing I admire very much in Russian people, but blind tolerance of barbaric acts of that nature, based on an argument of patriotism, which are not acceptable in any decent or civilised society, distrubs me greatly. I suggest you revisit your thinking on this one if you seriously desire to lead a decent life in a civilised country.   

I/O

One of the few posts I enjoyed reading here...
just wanted to comment about "blind tolerance of barbaric acts of that nature, based on an argument of patriotism"... I find it interesting and indeed disturbing that this blind tolerance inheres in most of the people living in FSU... sometimes I find myself justifying unspeakable things based on this "logic" and then: "wait a minute! what did I just say??" ... maybe it was something between the lines in the literature and media of the Soviet period???...

[catzenmouse]

Russians are used to having split emotions about Russia. They will talk one way about her among themselves, criticizing it, saying how they despise almost everything about it, yet if someone foreign will say something critical about Russia, Russians will unite and defend their motherland right or wrong.

This is quite true for residents of pretty much any nation on earth. We all tend feel more justified about criticizing our homeland but don't let anyone else do it as they don't have that right since they don't live here (or where ever you are).

The difference I see is that some take this a bit too far in their reactions towards anyone saying anything bad about their country whereas most in the West take it with a grain of salt.

FWIW