Beginning the quest

[Turboguy]

Thor, I don't know if he has perminantly sworn off Kiev and Odessa but he is not doing any tours there in 2008.   The comments I heard from his Kiev New Years party were not very good as far as the sincerity of the women.   I think if he does drop them he would be smart.

[Thor]

Turboguy,
I went with Jacks tours in the spring of 2005. I went to Kherson, Odessa and Kiev. The Kiev party was not nice at all. Mostly girls asking about how much my income was, what kind of house I had and so on. Generally speaking very rued behaviour. Not the kind of girls I was looking for. Besides this so was the experience with Jack just great. Especially the way he was my "mentor" before my arrival in Ukraine . Jack knows Ukraine and how to meet girls there.

[Kuna]

It's pretty funny reading the justifications of where a man should go and why...

I agree with everything that I/O says because if a man were to find the right girl in a high competition city he would be sure he found a gem.

I also agree with Thor and Turbo that there's no reason for a man to purposely walk into a more difficult environment than needed.

BUT...

I think the point which every man MUST focus on is finding, building and maintaining a relationship which is sustainable.

One member here (who I don't think is posting at the moment) openly admitted that he give up on cities and started searching in small villages because he wanted someone younger and/or more beautiful than he could attract in a city.  Personally I think this borders on exploitation - but I guess a desperate village girl will just be happy to "get out" of what she considers as hell.

It may work for the man - and it may work for the woman...  but it's a bit "icky" isn't it?

I'd suggest all men should be seeking equal relationships as inequality is going to make sustained happiness harder to find.

Kuna

[Enot]

I had a few bad experiences in Russia and I know many men that had bad experiences in the Ukraine, so I concentrated on the other countries of the FSU.  I finally found her in Moldova.

[Misha]

One member here (who I don't think is posting at the moment) openly admitted that he give up on cities and started searching in small villages because he wanted someone younger and/or more beautiful than he could attract in a city.  Personally I think this borders on exploitation - but I guess a desperate village girl will just be happy to "get out" of what she considers as hell.

Who exactly are these mythical and desperate village girls? In my experience (and I have spent much time in Russian villages), young women who don't want to live in a village leave. They go to the nearest city where they will go to university or they will find a job. I never saw a Russian village  full of desperate village girls. The women that stay are usually married or they like their lives in the village. If they were that desperate to leave their "hell" they would already have left.

[Kuna]

Who exactly are these mythical and desperate village girls? In my experience (and I have spent much time in Russian villages), young women who don't want to live in a village leave. They go to the nearest city where they will go to university or they will find a job. I never saw a Russian village  full of desperate village girls. The women that stay are usually married or they like their lives in the village. If they were that desperate to leave their "hell" they would already have left.

Yeah I dunno...  when the member returns you might like to ask him. When I see him I'll raise it. He's back from time to time.

Personally I didn't search in a village but the poster I'm referring to quite openly said he eventually started looking in villages because he couldn't find what he as looking for in larger cities.

You raise a good point though... if they really wanted out of the village there would be nothing stopping them from going to a larger city - unless of course they were too young or poor to leave the nest until a "knight in shining armor" swept her off her feet.

[Turboguy]

There is no right or wrong.  One may find Moscow a terrible place to find women and another might find it a wonderful place.   One woman can make the difference.   My thoughts on the subject we are talking about is that there are some places such as Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev and Odessa that have numerous connections to direct international flights.  They are beautiful cities with a lot to see and do and often have a mysterious allure from the cold war days and capture the imagination of newbie travelers to the FSU.  As a result they are the places the new traveler goes, flush with cash and with a rich imagination of the beautiful women the big agencies are telling him are awaiting his arrival with open arms and puckered lips.

For the beautiful girls in these cities, if they are an 8 or a 9 and listed with several agencies they can have these men lined up waiting to take them to the finest restaurants, waiting to shower them with cell phones and $ 500.00 boots.  Perhaps if Donald Trump arrives they will be sure they found their man, otherwise they can have a great life filled with expensive gifts and all they have to trade is pleasant conversation, a smile and a kiss on the cheek at the end of the night.   I think in many cases a beautiful woman in one of those cities who starts off sincere, won't stay sincere too long.  She has too much to loose.  These guys showering them with expensive gifts in the FSU are probably are shopping in the aisle next to me at WalMart when they are back in their home city.   Marry one of these dudes and that is her future.  They have a far better life there playing hostess and leading the suckers on.

The idea of going to a more out of the way place is not looking for desperate girls, it is looking for sincere girls who really want a good man in their life.   I think they were in Moscow and Odessa a decade ago.   I think they are rare there at this stage of the game. 

I agree with what Kuna said early in this thread the worst case is when someone marries a gal who is using them as a mule and dumps them at the earliest possible time.   When someone meets and falls for a scammer or wastes time with a serial dater the worst thing is not the wasted money, it is that they are using up part of their life and filling it with false dreams.   For many we can't go there every week.  One wasted trip with a scammer may use up that persons vacation time for a year.  That is a year wasted out of his life. 

I know some never had a problem with a scammer or serial dater.   I think Kuna and Gator both fall into this group and you are either very luck or very smart.   For the longest time I had a real problem with an inability to meet anything but a scammer or serial dater.   These were not always beautiful or young women or women with a big age gap.  Yes in some cases they were and in those cases perhaps I set myself up to be ripe for the picking.   I can say that they were most often in the cities I talked about earlier in this post.

[UomoCristiano1234]

Turboguy,

You know Jack Bragg right? Is it thrue or not that Jack dont do socials in Odessa and Kiev anymore?

It seems like you trust the services of this Jack Bragg. I found this less flattering description of him on Jim's site: http://agencyscams.com/russian-women-dating.html (scroll down to the section starting with: "I too have gone on a tour with Jack Bragg as well").

How do you respond to that? What do you generally think of Jim's site (http://www.agencyscams.com)? He generally tells a lot of the kind of RW/AM horror stories that I need to balance against some of you guys being actually (and preferably happily! :|) married to FSU women. Read the whole of the letter above. I would love to have your comments on it. Lines like "I am finding out
why most of these marriages simply don’t work out" should provoke some reaction with you.

And another one here: http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/18468.html
Admittedly a bit dated, but seemingly rich with detail and some nasty stories...

[UomoCristiano1234]

There is no right or wrong.  One may find Moscow a terrible place to find women and another might find it a wonderful place.   One woman can make the difference.   My thoughts on the subject we are talking about is that there are some places such as Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev and Odessa that have numerous connections to direct international flights.  They are beautiful cities with a lot to see and do and often have a mysterious allure from the cold war days and capture the imagination of newbie travelers to the FSU.  As a result they are the places the new traveler goes, flush with cash and with a rich imagination of the beautiful women the big agencies are telling him are awaiting his arrival with open arms and puckered lips.

For the beautiful girls in these cities, if they are an 8 or a 9 and listed with several agencies they can have these men lined up waiting to take them to the finest restaurants, waiting to shower them with cell phones and $ 500.00 boots.  Perhaps if Donald Trump arrives they will be sure they found their man, otherwise they can have a great life filled with expensive gifts and all they have to trade is pleasant conversation, a smile and a kiss on the cheek at the end of the night.   I think in many cases a beautiful woman in one of those cities who starts off sincere, won't stay sincere too long.  She has too much to loose.  These guys showering them with expensive gifts in the FSU are probably are shopping in the aisle next to me at WalMart when they are back in their home city.   Marry one of these dudes and that is her future.  They have a far better life there playing hostess and leading the suckers on.

The idea of going to a more out of the way place is not looking for desperate girls, it is looking for sincere girls who really want a good man in their life.   I think they were in Moscow and Odessa a decade ago.   I think they are rare there at this stage of the game. 

I agree with what Kuna said early in this thread the worst case is when someone marries a gal who is using them as a mule and dumps them at the earliest possible time.   When someone meets and falls for a scammer or wastes time with a serial dater the worst thing is not the wasted money, it is that they are using up part of their life and filling it with false dreams.   For many we can't go there every week.  One wasted trip with a scammer may use up that persons vacation time for a year.  That is a year wasted out of his life. 

I know some never had a problem with a scammer or serial dater.   I think Kuna and Gator both fall into this group and you are either very luck or very smart.   For the longest time I had a real problem with an inability to meet anything but a scammer or serial dater.   These were not always beautiful or young women or women with a big age gap.  Yes in some cases they were and in those cases perhaps I set myself up to be ripe for the picking.   I can say that they were most often in the cities I talked about earlier in this post.

Turboguy,
that post alone earned you the title of Hero Member in my book!
I can feel the weight of years of wasted holidays like the ones you describe being lifted from my shoulders. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart!

So, as I do want the 8s or 9s (I can get the 7s and below here at home without the bother of going to the FSU), but want them to be sincere and with a genuine wish for a love-based marriage, you are saying that I would increase my chances by going to the smaller, out of the way places? Gosh, I will need a guide...

[Kuna]

I know some never had a problem with a scammer or serial dater.   I think Kuna and Gator both fall into this group and you are either very luck or very smart.   For the longest time I had a real problem with an inability to meet anything but a scammer or serial dater.   These were not always beautiful or young women or women with a big age gap.  Yes in some cases they were and in those cases perhaps I set myself up to be ripe for the picking.   I can say that they were most often in the cities I talked about earlier in this post.

Turbo,

I think I did encounter a few scammers but I think I detected it early and ejected them from the list of possibles.  One was very high up on the list of ""good girls" until a few little things started creeping into her emails.

I think men have the ability to increase or decrease their chances of encountering scammers but they are certainly out there.  Some will say they are more prevalent in some cities - that might be true...  but a man should be guarded until proven wrong IMHO.

Kuna
 

[Turboguy]

Personally I see no reason you would need a guide.   Pick cities with good agencies and don't put all your eggs in one city.   Places like Barnaul and Tver in Russia and Kerson, and a bunch of other cities in Ukraine are good spots.

Jim's List.  Humm.  There has been some past heated discussions about that and I will try to say this without stirring them up again.   Jim probably means well but in some cases he lets his emotions affect his recommendations.  In the particular case of Jack and Jim there is some bad blood between them and I think Jim's comments about Jack are less than unbiased. 

If you read everything here you will find dozens of guys who have done Jack's tour and most all are very complimentary.   I won't say your odds of finding a good woman are quite as good as what Jack might say but they are good and the education is worth the price of admission a dozen times over.  I did Jacks tour with my son about 17 months ago and there is a TR here about it.

Kuna, I think you had one big advantage over me in avoiding scammers.  It is called RWD.  You were very wise in reading, asking good questions and thinking deeply about the things people told you.   You made your trip informed and prepaired for success. 

[I/O]

What do you generally think of Jim's site

Jim's site? Raised some warning bells with you, yes? Then it has done some good. Jim vs Jack? Personal p!ssing match IMO...........best taken with a grain of salt.

I've read some solid condemnations of Jim, written by people I have come to respect, however, I only solicited the man's opinion on one matter on one occasion and he did me no harm.

I/O

[Thor]

Who exactly are these mythical and desperate village girls? In my experience (and I have spent much time in Russian villages), young women who don't want to live in a village leave. They go to the nearest city where they will go to university or they will find a job. I never saw a Russian village  full of desperate village girls. The women that stay are usually married or they like their lives in the village. If they were that desperate to leave their "hell" they would already have left.

There is common in FSU at most young girls go to bigger city's to go to university. This goes also by the village girls. Some of the girls in villages will marry early at 18 or 19, but this girls likes to live in the village where they have all their family.

Kuna,

I think that maybe in the 90`s and early 2000 when the economical situation was harder so would you maybe find village girls who where desperate to marry a foreigner, but not anymore. The economical situation is improved and the world has become closer to the FSU country's. The girls watch US TV programs, listen to western music are influenced by western culture. But this days where the village girls where desperat to get out of the village are do svidanya now.

If you go to the bigger city's so will you find this village girls everywhere now. You don't need to go to the countryside or the villages to find this girls if you seek a village girl.

[Thor]

There is no right or wrong.  One may find Moscow a terrible place to find women and another might find it a wonderful place.   One woman can make the difference.   My thoughts on the subject we are talking about is that there are some places such as Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev and Odessa that have numerous connections to direct international flights.  They are beautiful cities with a lot to see and do and often have a mysterious allure from the cold war days and capture the imagination of newbie travelers to the FSU.  As a result they are the places the new traveler goes, flush with cash and with a rich imagination of the beautiful women the big agencies are telling him are awaiting his arrival with open arms and puckered lips.

For the beautiful girls in these cities, if they are an 8 or a 9 and listed with several agencies they can have these men lined up waiting to take them to the finest restaurants, waiting to shower them with cell phones and $ 500.00 boots.  Perhaps if Donald Trump arrives they will be sure they found their man, otherwise they can have a great life filled with expensive gifts and all they have to trade is pleasant conversation, a smile and a kiss on the cheek at the end of the night.   I think in many cases a beautiful woman in one of those cities who starts off sincere, won't stay sincere too long.  She has too much to loose.  These guys showering them with expensive gifts in the FSU are probably are shopping in the aisle next to me at WalMart when they are back in their home city.   Marry one of these dudes and that is her future.  They have a far better life there playing hostess and leading the suckers on.

The idea of going to a more out of the way place is not looking for desperate girls, it is looking for sincere girls who really want a good man in their life.   I think they were in Moscow and Odessa a decade ago.   I think they are rare there at this stage of the game. 

Turboguy,

Very good commend!!!  I could not agree more than the words you are writing here.

A lot of the guys that goes to city's like Odessa, Moscow and Kiev and use a agency, will want to meet the 8 and 9`s in the agency. Hey, we are just men . BUT  this girls have a ocean of opportunities since most men who are comming to this agency wants to meet them. Why should this girls settel down with a guy when there are so many men that wants to take them to restauran gs and buy them gifts?? Remember that also many rich local men chase this girls......They wants to marry only a very rich man, they use their beauty to maintain a better life....And who can blame them for that???

Sometimes this girls have a very rued and ugly attitude to the men coming to meet them. Be very carefull about this girls. If you want to find a 8 or 9 so better go east in Ukraine or to smaller Russian city's. (Of course what is a 8 or 9 are different from guy to guy). 

[Misha]

You raise a good point though... if they really wanted out of the village there would be nothing stopping them from going to a larger city - unless of course they were too young or poor to leave the nest until a "knight in shining armor" swept her off her feet.

Trust me, if you are living in a Russian village, you do not wait in the nest for a knight in shining armor, you won't even wait in the nest for a knight in very dull and rusty armor. Young women will find and aunt or some other relative living in the nearest city and will work 7 days a week if necessary to afford a shared room in the nearest city. They will apply to go to university and find the less popular university programs to try and get into the "free" spots. If a young woman is still living in a village past the age of 18, it is usually because she is truly committed to village life, already has a husband or already has some major problem that is stopping her from leaving (some form of substance abuse). If you want to improve your odds, demographically speaking, you do not go to a village, rather you find a small regional university city that attracted all the women from the villages in the first place 

[Turboguy]

I think it is time for some clarification here. Some of us are speaking Martain and some Saturian. So no one thinks anyone is speaking the language of Uranus, we are talking "villiages" and "out of the way places". Villiages might be tough. Out of the way places would be my recommendation.

[Misha]

I think it is time for some clarification here. Some of us are speaking Martain and some Saturian. So no one thinks anyone is speaking the language of Uranus, we are talking "villiages" and "out of the way places". Villiages might be tough. Out of the way places would be my recommendation.

Well, out of the way places for most foreigners with regards to Russian would be anywhere outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg 

[KenC]

Trust me, if you are living in a Russian village, you do not wait in the nest for a knight in shining armor, you won't even wait in the nest for a knight in very dull and rusty armor. Young women will find and aunt or some other relative living in the nearest city and will work 7 days a week if necessary to afford a shared room in the nearest city. They will apply to go to university and find the less popular university programs to try and get into the "free" spots. If a young woman is still living in a village past the age of 18, it is usually because she is truly committed to village life, already has a husband or already has some major problem that is stopping her from leaving (some form of substance abuse). If you want to improve your odds, demographically speaking, you do not go to a village, rather you find a small regional university city that attracted all the women from the villages in the first place 

gabaub,
Your post is right on the money!  Lena's best friend came from a small village and went to the university in Tver.  Rooming with many others in a dorm during her school time.  Upon graduation, the friend moved into a job in Moscow where she now resides.  Perfect example of a village girl or a moscow woman?  Somewhere in between I imagine.
KenC

[Lily]

gabaub,
Your post is right on the money!  Lena's best friend came from a small village and went to the university in Tver.  Rooming with many others in a dorm during her school time.  Upon graduation, the friend moved into a job in Moscow where she now resides.  Perfect example of a village girl or a moscow woman?  Somewhere in between I imagine.
KenC

and such examples are many more in numbers than you could imagine.

[KenC]

Lily,
Years ago here in America we had a saying "You will never get them back on the farm once they have been to the city."  Quite the same thing as I see it.
KenC

[Misha]

gabaub,
Your post is right on the money!  Lena's best friend came from a small village and went to the university in Tver.  Rooming with many others in a dorm during her school time.  Upon graduation, the friend moved into a job in Moscow where she now resides.  Perfect example of a village girl or a moscow woman?  Somewhere in between I imagine.
KenC

Most women in Moscow:

A. Moved from a village or a smaller city to live in Moscow OR
B. Their mothers or occasionally their grandmothers moved from a village or a smaller city to live in Moscow AND
C. Will usually deny whichever of options A or B applies to them LOL

[Gator]

KenC wrote,

"You will never get them back on the farm once they have been to the city."

My Muscovite lived on a "farm" for a period during Russia's most difficult times.  Milked goats, raised rabbits.  She will never go back (to the farm).   I have a feeling that RW may know more about "farm" life than us Americans.

[Misha]

KenC wrote,
My Muscovite lived on a "farm" for a period during Russia's most difficult times. 

Didn't your "Muscovite" also pride herself on her pure Muscovite "blood"? There is a scent of contradiction here 

[Simoni]

Years ago here in America we had a saying "You will never get them back on the farm once they have been to the city." 

My Muscovite lived on a "farm" for a period during Russia's most difficult times.  Milked goats, raised rabbits.  She will never go back (to the farm).   

Men should be aware of this fact.   My Marina lived in a city of 1.5 million people.  When I initially moved her to a city of half a million, she called it a "village."  City girls expect a vibrant city life, with clubs and entertainment, and a mass of people.  That is why we are now living in downtown.  

It does not mean you can't take an fsu city girl to a small american city, but beware that the move may be difficult, adding one more layer of culture shock.

[Gator]

Gaubaub wrote,

Didn't your "Muscovite" also pride herself on her pure Muscovite "blood"? There is a scent of contradiction here 

Contradiction?  I referred to her farm as a "farm."   It was a large dacha and not part of  a 2,000 hectare cooperative.

She and her grandmother needed to feed themselves.    You roll up your sleeves and do what you have to do.  If there were a contradiction, it is the fact that her grandmother went from a  retired stage actress to killing rabbits.

And were they ever happy to return to their Moscow!

She has abundant pride as does any RW.  With regard to being from a long line of Moscow families, I would not call her pride snobbery or arrogant.