Beginning the quest

[BC]

A city is not a city unless there is a metro (tube).

IMHO has something to do with a woman's independence..  If there is a tube the world is at her feet..

[Misha]

Gaubaub wrote,

Contradiction?  I referred to her farm as a "farm."   It was a large dacha and not part of  a 2,000 hectare cooperative.

She and her grandmother needed to feed themselves.    You roll up your sleeves and do what you have to do.  If there were a contradiction, it is the fact that her grandmother went from a  retired stage actress to killing rabbits.

And were they ever happy to return to their Moscow!

She has abundant pride as does any RW.  With regard to being from a long line of Moscow families, I would not call her pride snobbery or arrogant.   

Okay, a dacha is different than a farm. What exactly is a "long line of Moscow families"? What difference would it make if a person was from a long line or short line of Moscow families?

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

What exactly is a "long line of Moscow families"? What difference would it make if a person was from a long line or short line of Moscow families?

"Objection, your honor!  Relevance"

[Misha]

Gaubaub,
"Objection, your honor!  Relevance"

To be honest, it does comes across as a tad arrogant.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

I think that maybe in the 90`s and early 2000 when the economical situation was harder so would you maybe find village girls who where desperate to marry a foreigner, but not anymore. The economical situation is improved and the world has become closer to the FSU country's. The girls watch US TV programs, listen to western music are influenced by western culture. But this days where the village girls where desperat to get out of the village are do svidanya now.

Good point Thor... I believe the couple I'm thinking of married a long time ago...  and times are changing.

Like you I've seen and met women with many more options than ladies might have had a decade ago and I think that's a good thing.  I would have hated knowing I married someone just because she was in a desperate position...  I don't believe that's a good foundation for a modern relationship.

The improving conditions in FSU (and let's not forget it's more evident in some places than others) gives men the opportunity to find more equality in their relationships... and hopefully more equality will lead to a higher success rate over time.

Of course there are still exceptions where there is little or no equality in relationships - but those people making those decisions may end up proving us all wrong.  I think there's a lot of truth in Eastern beliefs and I always think back to a Chinese theory on business partners being:

"Strong - Strong - good partners"

"Weak - Weak - good partners"

"Strong - Weak - no balance no happiness"

Basically when partnering in China we always sought a partner of similar size and strength as they believe an imbalance will see one partner consumed and that partner will usually initiate a relationship failure.

[Kuna]

There is no right or wrong.  One may find Moscow a terrible place to find women and another might find it a wonderful place.   One woman can make the difference.   My thoughts on the subject we are talking about is that there are some places such as Moscow, St Petersburg, Kiev and Odessa that have numerous connections to direct international flights.  They are beautiful cities with a lot to see and do and often have a mysterious allure from the cold war days and capture the imagination of newbie travelers to the FSU.  As a result they are the places the new traveler goes, flush with cash and with a rich imagination of the beautiful women the big agencies are telling him are awaiting his arrival with open arms and puckered lips.

For the beautiful girls in these cities, if they are an 8 or a 9 and listed with several agencies they can have these men lined up waiting to take them to the finest restaurants, waiting to shower them with cell phones and $ 500.00 boots.  Perhaps if Donald Trump arrives they will be sure they found their man, otherwise they can have a great life filled with expensive gifts and all they have to trade is pleasant conversation, a smile and a kiss on the cheek at the end of the night.   I think in many cases a beautiful woman in one of those cities who starts off sincere, won't stay sincere too long.  She has too much to loose.  These guys showering them with expensive gifts in the FSU are probably are shopping in the aisle next to me at WalMart when they are back in their home city.   Marry one of these dudes and that is her future.  They have a far better life there playing hostess and leading the suckers on.

The idea of going to a more out of the way place is not looking for desperate girls, it is looking for sincere girls who really want a good man in their life.   I think they were in Moscow and Odessa a decade ago.   I think they are rare there at this stage of the game. 

I agree with what Kuna said early in this thread the worst case is when someone marries a gal who is using them as a mule and dumps them at the earliest possible time.   When someone meets and falls for a scammer or wastes time with a serial dater the worst thing is not the wasted money, it is that they are using up part of their life and filling it with false dreams.   For many we can't go there every week.  One wasted trip with a scammer may use up that persons vacation time for a year.  That is a year wasted out of his life. 

I know some never had a problem with a scammer or serial dater.   I think Kuna and Gator both fall into this group and you are either very luck or very smart.   For the longest time I had a real problem with an inability to meet anything but a scammer or serial dater.   These were not always beautiful or young women or women with a big age gap.  Yes in some cases they were and in those cases perhaps I set myself up to be ripe for the picking.   I can say that they were most often in the cities I talked about earlier in this post.

The problem with this theory (and it's the one Thor subscribes too as well) is that it assumes these  so-called pro-daters are like that because they have been spoiled by lots of attention and options...

It ignores the possibility that there are just women out there that are bad to start with, and opportunity just allows the dysfunction to become more e0vident.

Maybe it's better to see a woman already with options to see how she matured through it rather than focus on women with few options, ONLY to see her mature in ways that may not be expected or appreciated in future.

There are good women and bad women everywhere... 

[Gator]

Uomo, please pardon us.

Gaubaub,

Have you ever cracked a smile in your hundreds of posts?  You are one intense dude.

Regarding your disfavor of what I wrote, you have three choices. 

1.  Go ahead and say that my posts are arrogant.

2.  Say that my woman is arrogant even though you have not met her and even though I said earlier that her pride was not arrogance and any hint of arrogance could be due to how I presented it.  BTW, I am proud of her as you surely are of your woman.

3.  Read the answer to your irrelevant question to me and then decide:

You questioned a "long line".  A "long line" is my summation of her answers to my question "Where are you forefathers from?"  "We have always been from Moscow."  "I understand your mother and father were born here, but how about their grandfathers, grand-grandfathers and grand-grand-grandfathers?"   "All of them."  If I knew I would be cross-examined years later in RWD, I would have asked for proof.

I would classify her family as indeed very proud Muscovites who suffered a decline in status even before the collapse of Soviet system.  Her grandmother was a stage actress and was successful enough to travel to Italy and Greece in the 1970s and also owned a car - something remarkable for those times.  Her father, who abandoned her at birth, was a translator in Cuba and her mother worked in political radio, broadcasting propaganda  to South Africa.  I guess her grandfather was with the KGB (no comment from her), yet when he disappeared in Iran, things were never the same, requiring a fine apartment to be sold.

I met other women who had descended from high ranking Soviet officials.  Some families recovered and were doing well.  Others were never the same, longing for their prominence of Soviet days.

Gaubaub,
Why don't you now tell us something that you find interesting about the heritage of these wonderful women?

[Misha]

1.  Go ahead and say that my posts are arrogant.

You questioned a "long line".  A "long line" is my summation of her answers to my question "Where are you forefathers from?"  "We have always been from Moscow."  "I understand your mother and father were born here, but how about their grandfathers, grand-grandfathers and grand-grand-grandfathers?"   "All of them."  If I knew I would be cross-examined years later in RWD, I would have asked for proof.

Okay, I will say it: I find your posts are often arrogant.

As for a woman having all her ancestors from Moscow (up to the great-grandparents), that is quite unlikely. At the time of the Revolution, Moscow was not that large of a city. St. Petersburg was the Imperial capital even though Moscow was an important industrial and economic center by Imperial Russian standards. Construction began in earnest under Stalin in the 1930s and the bulk of the city was built under Khrushchev (the 5-story brick building colloquially known as khrushchevkas) and later in the 1960s and 1970s (the concrete panel apartment building that cover much of the Moscow). Most of the city inhabitants came to live in Moscow as the city expanded after the war. It is highly unlikely (I would say impossible) that anybody in Moscow can say that all their ancestors always lived in Moscow. 

[Gator]

It is highly unlikely (I would say impossible) that anybody in Moscow can say that all their ancestors always lived in Moscow.

You are correct!  Some of her ancestors originated from central Africa a few thousand years ago (see Sandro's map in Edurad's diversity thread).

I will tell her tomorrow that you think she is lying.  To which she will say "What?"  I will explain and she will remind me of something she said before, "You spend too much time in chatroom."

BTW Gaubaub, my intent here is to join in intelligent and interesting dialogue, not to look for a fight.   And my back should be well enough in two weeks to return to golf so I will not be spending hours in front of RWD.  If you can not wait that long, there is the "IGNORE" button.

[Misha]

You are correct!  Some of her ancestors originated from central Africa a few thousand years ago (see Sandro's map in Edurad's diversity thread).

I will tell her tomorrow that you think she is lying.  To which she will say "What?"  I will explain and she will remind me of something she said before, "You spend too much time in chatroom."

BTW Gaubaub, my intent here is to join in intelligent and interesting dialogue, not to look for a fight.   And my back should be well enough in two weeks to return to golf so I will not be spending hours in front of RWD.  If you can not wait that long, there is the "IGNORE" button.

LOL We all strive to build up our egos. RW from Moscow, AM dating RW from Moscow, WM married to women from regional cities. I take everything that I read on the internet with a grain of salt. It is always part posturing, part pomp.

[Admin]

Sheez guys (gabaub and Gator) - that will go down in the annals of RWD history as THE most polite disagreement ever!

And just so you all know - MY wife is from Ukraine. She comes from Kremenchug. There is no comparison! She is vastly prettier, smarter, sexier, more intelligent, a better mother, better cook, better home-maker, more successful in her career than ANY of those other wives/girlfriends out there. To me, anyway. :heartafire:

- Dan

[Daveman]

But,
My girl is the best of all... we haven't met yet., but our relationship is more fulfilling and more intense, and more all that other stuff than any married people!  We don't even need a web cam! We consort through telepathy!

Just a quick question... aren't all indigenous Russian people of euro/slavic origin originally from the Kiev region of Ukraine (Kievan Rus)?  So, it would seem that all White Muscovites are actually Native Ukrainians.. (Gator, that should get a rise from her.. heh)

I am also surprised by how many UW and RW I've conversed with over the past couple of years actually spent some part of their childhood in Siberia.  Must have been from that shifting process, rather like the Army Brats in America.

[SANDRO43]

I think it is time for some clarification here. Some of us are speaking Martain and some Saturian. So no one thinks anyone is speaking the language of Uranus, we are talking "villiages" and "out of the way places". Villiages might be tough.

... and you're not talking English, either .

[chivo]

The idea of going to a more out of the way place is not looking for desperate girls, it is looking for sincere girls who really want a good man in their life.   I think they were in Moscow and Odessa a decade ago.   I think they are rare there at this stage of the game. 

This just isn't true. I meet/have met hundreds of nice sincere girls in Moscow who would make wonderful wives and are looking exactly for a good man.

Now they might not want to leave Moscow for Wildhair, Pa., but that doesn't make them insincere.

Ask groovlsk where he found his lady, and if he's happy. To overlook big cities is lame, especially if you live in one.

I just laugh whenever I read stereotypical BS. Sure if you want to look at only agency girls, but I don't think you'll find much difference between the lot of agency girls wherever they exist.

Moscow is full of nice, sincere women looking for a good man. To suggest otherwise is naive at best. Good luck.

chivo

[Enot]

I think your ODDS of finding a sincere and less westernized women are better in smaller cities of Ukraine and Russia and the other countries of the former Soviet Union.  I think this is what the majority of us are looking for.

I only know of 1 successful marriage from a big city of Russia and the Ukraine and this started 3 years ago.  I know many fiancee visas and weddings that have failed from the large cities.

[Turboguy]

Enot, I have to agree with you as I have been doing all along.  I do think someone living in a big city may have a better chance in a big city but the pickings are better in the out of the way places.

I do think there is some truth in what Chivo says about not wanting to leave moscow for wildhair PA or Billings MT.  VWRW seems quite happy in my tiny burg of 12,000 people even though she is from a city of 600,000.  Not all women would be.   My former fiancee also seemed to like it here and her city was a couple of million. 

People who can trace their lineage back to the Mayflower seem to make a big deal of it so someone who has always been from a Moscow family has every right to be proud of that.  Of course I also agree S.P. was the place to be for quite a while.   Personally I come from a long line of people from Wurtemburg PA which is population 400 and as beautiful as the name implies.

Gator, glad to hear the back is doing better.  I am sure the golf courses miss you and hope you are back breaking par soon.

I think another factor to consider is the level of sophistication someone seeks.  I think that is important for Gator and many others and less important for some.  Many of us just wanted a good woman.   I think there is a higher level of sophistication with some big city women.   VWRW has more class and sophistication than any other woman in the Beaver Valley, and would rate high in any group but perhaps not to the level of some of the women from family's from Moscow that we in the "in group" for generations.

Sandro,  Sorry I was posting on my Blackberry and without a spell checker the real level of my ignorance comes out.   

Kuna, I can see your point.  I do agree that some of the women were bad to begin with.  It is probably better that they have fallen into pro dating so serious guys will pass them over rather than marrying them and ending up with a disaster.  However, power and money do corrupt people.  Look at all the movie stars and entertainment people whose life goes to pot because they can't handle the fame and fortune that goes along with it.  Pro dating is a easy thing to fall into when men are waiting in line to shower them with money and gifts. 

[docetae]

About big cities, do not forget that many women are coming from small places and have difficulties to integrate themselves in this environment, to find true friends , social network, etc.

Best friends from my girlfriend are women who were in University with her in Zaporizhia.

My opinion is to avoid agency and tours... simple rule of offer and demand... there are a lot more men than women in this context than on "open market" . I have found my lady on luckylovers.net , I have subscribed two times to this site and I have always had good experience.

[chivo]

I think your ODDS of finding a sincere and less westernized women are better in smaller cities of Ukraine and Russia and the other countries of the former Soviet Union.  I think this is what the majority of us are looking for.

If by odds you mean one you can control better, and will put up with more (or in some cases less materialistically) of your crap, then maybe.

But let me see if I have this figured out by what you're saying. I want a less westernized woman from a small city, so I can bring her to a totally westernize country.

The fact is, as was mentioned also, the gap from westernized/non westernized RW/FSUW has closed quit considerably. From the internet to magazines, to TV shows, the word is out.

I only know of 1 successful marriage from a big city of Russia and the Ukraine and this started 3 years ago.  I know many fiancee visas and weddings that have failed from the large cities.

I can think of 2 here with ladies from Moscow, jb and groovlsk, that are doing just fine. As mentioned, concentrate on the woman, not her location.

My point specifically is don't count out big city girls because I know for a fact that they (good, no great women) exist in much larger numbers in the big cities than what is typically thought of here.

Good luck,

chivo

[Misha]

People who can trace their lineage back to the Mayflower seem to make a big deal of it so someone who has always been from a Moscow family has every right to be proud of that. 

I think another factor to consider is the level of sophistication someone seeks.  I think that is important for Gator and many others and less important for some.

The Mayflower is good example. If the ancestors of all the Americans who claimed that they can trace their lineage to the Mayflower had actually been on that ship, then the Mayflower would have had to have been the size of the RMS Queen Mary 2 (world's largest ocean liner).

What is sophistication? I really question the implication that one's city and one's breeding somehow makes one more sophisticated. Perhaps it is my bias as I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. My parents were simple farmers and did not even graduate from high school. Yet, I worked hard and did get an advanced education. Would that make me less sophisticated than someone who can claim a better lineage? Likewise, is a woman automatically more sophisticated because she is from Moscow? I personally judge sophistication based on the merits of the individual and not the "propiska" or any ancestors they may or may not have had.   

[Enot]

I think your ODDS of finding a sincere and less westernized women are better in smaller cities of Ukraine and Russia and the other countries of the former Soviet Union.  I think this is what the majority of us are looking for.

If by odds you mean one you can control better, and will put up with more (or in some cases less materialistically) of your crap, then maybe.

By being less westernized, I meant not being a feminist, not being materialistic, more into family, and concentrating on the necessities of life.  Of course there are excellent women in the big cities but the "ODDS" are better of finding what you want in smaller cities and the satelite countries of the FSU.

But let me see if I have this figured out by what you're saying. I want a less westernized woman from a small city, so I can bring her to a totally westernize country.

The fact is, as was mentioned also, the gap from westernized/non westernized RW/FSUW has closed quit considerably. From the internet to magazines, to TV shows, the word is out.

Yes, if you wanted a westernized woman, you would find one in your own country.  I see nothing wrong with bringing a non-westernized women to a westernized atmoshere, it happens quite often.  Of course they will develop some westernized "habits" but they still have that core and beliefs of a non-westernized world.  The characteristics, personality, and habits of a person is 90% developed before they are teenagers.

Yes the "word" is out and where did it start ... in the big cities of Russia!  They were the first to know and therefore are now more influenced!

I only know of 1 successful marriage from a big city of Russia and the Ukraine and this started 3 years ago.  I know many fiancee visas and weddings that have failed from the large cities.

I can think of 2 here with ladies from Moscow, jb and groovlsk, that are doing just fine. As mentioned, concentrate on the woman, not her location.

Okay so we know 3 out of the let's say 10 million women from the large cities of the FSU.  I am sure there are a lot more then 3 from the smaller cities and satelite countries of the FSU.  ODDS ... think ODDS!

My point specifically is don't count out big city girls because I know for a fact that they (good, no great women) exist in much larger numbers in the big cities than what is typically thought of here.

I'm not counting them out, I'm only saying your odds are better elsewhere and I'm living proof as I'm sure many past and present members are.

[Enot]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[Turboguy]

Moscow and St Petersburg combined probably account for 12-15% of the population of Russia.   jb and Groov have wives from there and they are the only two I know of.  jb met his wife long ago and not in the way we do so he is a different case.   I know of three guys in the forums (including myself) with wives from Barnaul which is .004 of the population of Russia.  I would bet there are more from Tver than Moscow or even Moscow and S.P. combined.   The same applies to Kiev.  How many guys here have wives from Kiev?  Probably fewer than many of the small cities.

[Gator]

The subject of Big City women is a good one and needs not to be discussed in a man's "Hi, I'm Uomo" thread.  So I started a new thread.  And please can we leave the subject of ancestors here.

BTW, Gaubaub, if you wish to talk heritage, I was born without an indoor toilet and no running water.  While I am older than the hills and not everyone had such modern conveniences in those ancient days - the point is that my family were good hard working people from the hills of Tennessee.  Mayflower to them was a flour company who had the best flour sacks to be used as material for making a new dress.  True fact!

Who knows, back then (40s) a small Russian farming village probably would have looked the same to them, maybe better.  Maybe Russians were also weary of the mules farting in their face in the summer heat, but could not move to the city.

[Misha]

BTW, Gaubaub, if you wish to talk heritage, I was born without an indoor toilet and no running water.  While I am older than the hills and not everyone had such modern conveniences in those ancient days - the point is that my family were good hard working people from the hills of Tennessee.  Mayflower to them was a flour company who had the best flour sacks to be used as material for making a new dress.  True fact!

My first five years were also spent in a house with no running water and with a outhouse thirty feet away from the house and I am not as old as the hills LOL. The point is that I did work hard to go to the city, and I enjoyed life in the city. I hated shoveling manure and running after cows. However, the fact that I was not born in a city does not make me less sophisticated, in the same way that a woman born in Moscow will be automatically more sophisticated than a woman who was not born in Moscow. Also, I do recognize that there are many very educated and sophisticated people who do not live in the city, and no city has the monopoly on sophistication. 

[Gator]

So you know the taste of organic food.  Yardwalkers certainly taste better than factory grown chicken -  deriving some of their nutrition from pecking corn kernels in the human deposits exposed beneath the "two holer."

Before the reminiscing gets deeper, maybe we should stop the comparisons here.  We both agree that a man can make his own life regardless of his roots, and so can RW (and many are trying to do exactly that by marrying a Western man).