Moving to Russia - Looking for Feedback

[RoadWarrior]

Hello everyone. I'm a 37-year-old American guy who's in the very fortunate position of being able to move to Russia for 2-3 years and continue to work there remotely for my American company.

I'm looking to get a reasonable distance away from the Moscow/SPB area and have specifically been looking at Siberian cities like Novosibirsk, Barnaul, Irkutsk and Krasnoyarsk. I'm interested to hear feedback from folks who've been to one or more of these cities. I'm really looking for a city that has a nice feel to it -- i.e. nice walking streets, outdoor cafes, etc.

I tend to be the type who likes to get off of the beaten path, which is why I'm looking at Siberia instead of places like Nizhniy Novgorod or other larger Western Russian cities/Ukraine.

Ideally I'd like the size of the city to be 500,000 or larger. I'm also concerned about cost of living. I've been doing some research on other sites and have found people commenting that dinner for one at an average restaurant can run 400-500 roubles ($16-20) in Novosibirsk. I had thought that Russia outside of Moscow and SPB was quite a bit cheaper than that.

Any city advice anyone could give would be much appreciated. I'd like to have a decision made relatively soon, as I plan to move there at the end of April. Thanks!

[START2]

Road,
  I'm thinking and others might as well, that before I moved somewhere, even in the U.S., I'd at least want to visit the area. Have you ever been abroad? Have you considered Ukraine? Are you interested in searching for a wife or long term relationship? Why Russia/FSU?

[thompsongunner06]

Siberia??Way too cold,,,You really need to go there and see the area. Look for southern area,,Sochi was very nice. BTW 16-18 bucks for food is OK since the tip is included. DO NOT leave a tip,they will just look at you.

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm a bit confused.  A city of 500,000 "off the beaten path"?  Are you looking more for an area with opportunities for outdoor adventures or just to be away from the crowds?  What activities do you enjoy?  If you're considering an out of the way place in Siberia your options are limited and you better enjoy winter activities and bring your own equipment.

[RoadWarrior]

Road,
  I'm thinking and others might as well, that before I moved somewhere, even in the U.S., I'd at least want to visit the area. Have you ever been abroad? Have you considered Ukraine? Are you interested in searching for a wife or long term relationship? Why Russia/FSU?

Hi. Thanks for your reply. I didn't give much background on myself. I'm an experienced traveler who's traveled extensively in developing countries. I'm currently living in Bangkok, Thailand and have previously lived in the Dominican Republic and Colombia. I've traveled to more than 45 countries.

My FSU travels include one solo trip to Ukraine. Due to the fact that the majority of men looking for Russian wives travel to Ukraine, I've decided to get more off the beaten path and head to Russia.

My Russian language skills are limited. I can read Russian well, but my command of the language is at a beginner's level. I welcome the challenges of learning new languages and know that the language barrier will be challenging in Siberia. I'm prepared to deal with that and embrace it as a chance to learn Russian.

Yes, going to live in a city you've never seen before is a bit of a leap of faith, but it's also a scenario I've encountered before, and it's generally served me well provided that my research about the city prior to the trip is thorough. I am also extremely mobile, so if I get to a city and don't like it, I can move on relatively easily.

As for my relationship goals, I'm playing things casually, but my eventual goal is marriage to a great woman. I'm living abroad right now because I love traveling and can leverage my U.S. income in developing countries, thereby allowing me to save a lot of money.

However, my main questions have to do with these cities in terms of how livable they are. Beautiful, interesting women are available in all of them.

[RoadWarrior]

I'm a bit confused.  A city of 500,000 "off the beaten path"?  Are you looking more for an area with opportunities for outdoor adventures or just to be away from the crowds?  What activities do you enjoy?  If you're considering an out of the way place in Siberia your options are limited and you better enjoy winter activities and bring your own equipment.

Yes, there are dozens of Russian cities that are "off the beaten path." When I use that term, I mean far away from Ukraine and Western Russia. Some examples of cities that I would categorize as being "off the beaten path" with a population of approximately 500,000 or greater:

Novosibirsk   1,425,000
Omsk   1,134,000
Krasnoyarsk   919,000
Barnaul   650,000
Irkutsk   593,000
Orenburg   545,000
Tomsk   488,000

[BC]

My tip:
Rostov (on Don)

[AnastassiaAsh]

I would vote for Russia somewhere warm, like the Crimea or Krasnodar region. Very beautiful, the land of great fruit and vegetables. Beautiful women...close to the Black Sea.

[Turboguy]

My wife is from Barnaul and I was there one time in early October.   I did not notice much in the way of sidewalk cafe's but the weather was cold.   It did seem like a nice city.  Very flat and fairly modern.   The negatives I would see are the weather and the difficulty flying there.   There are two flights from Moscow, one from SVO and one from DME.   Both leave late at night and arrive early am.   Return flights to moscow leave early AM and arrive early AM.   I liked Barnaul.  I did a lot of walking there and it was a good city for walking.   The cost of living there is very reasonable.

Of the cities others have mentioned I have been to Omsk but it was a long time ago and I was in Rostov two years ago.   Rostov struck me as one of the nicer cities I had been to in Russia.   For someone looking for a wife I would consider Barnaul to be a top choice.   In terms of weather Rostov would be a far better choice but is not off the beaten path.

[BC]

  In terms of weather Rostov would be a far better choice but is not off the beaten path.

Yeah.. last time I was there I saw your footprints at the baggage pickup area   

[Gator]

Yeah.. last time I was there I saw your footprints at the baggage pickup area

Walmart shoes do make a distinct footprint. 

[ScottinCrimea]

I wouldn't discuount Crimea if I were you.  As far as Crimea goes, pretty much anywhere there but Yalta is off the beaten path and since there are no major agencies there, I don't see as much traffic in men coming to find wives.  The other nice thing is that for the FSU, it's the best area for weather and things to do.

[Phil dAmore]

Okay, reality check.

I've been living here for almost 6 years.  Come this August I will be returning to the U.S.  Why?  Simple.  They don't want foreigners here. At. All.

My first question to you is how will you handle the visa situation?  Thanks to recent changes in the visa laws it is virtually impossible to remain the the country legally for more than 90 days at at time.   A residency card?  Yeah, good luck with that... I've been chasing one for the entire time I have been living here  and am no closer to getting one now than I was on day one. 

I haven't been to the areas you mentioned but from what I hear they are basically autonomous regions.. run by the local power brokers.  The kind of places where people disappear with such regularity that no one even mentions it any longer.

Now is NOT a good time to move to Russia. Mr. Putin and company have set themselves up to rule for a VERY long time and have made it quite clear that anyone from the west is NOT welcome. 

Yes, the people are wonderful, once you get to know them. But the endless visa rule changes, harassment, and downright extortion when it comes to keeping your documents up to date simply is not worth the hassle.

My advice:  Go to Estonia.  Or Poland. Or Ukraine.  Do not come to Russia unless you have an infinite amount of tolerance for BS and corruption.  I know of which I speak.  I've been here for nearly 6 years and I'm tired of it.  Nothing works likes it supposed to, even the simplest of tasks involves a complicated process.  There is always one more document you need or one more stamp that is required.  If I had access to firearms I would have climbed a tower by now and started shooting .  Yes, it's that bad.  DO NOT COME HERE. 

You have been warned.

[Ranetka]

Try this www.expat.ru - expat community in Russia. Personally out of what you mentioned I would recommend Novosibirsk, I think most of Siberian money are there (not counting oil regions, of course).

[Jazzyclassy]

I like Phil D'amore  post even though it is very critical but in many ways I believe he is right about the corruption and that you always need one more document  to fulfil your process.

If you want to live in Russia you  need to be very rich

[RoadWarrior]

Thank you for your feedback. I'm a bit surprised, though, as I was under the impression that I could remain in the country for one year on a one-year business visa as long as I obtain the required paperwork through a specialist agency (for a fee, of course). Has this recently changed?

In response to Phil, do you work in an industry in which you have dealings with the government or something? As for me, I'm pretty much off the radar as I work for a private U.S. company remotely through the Internet, and I work from home. Aside from times during which a visa has to be renewed, I don't understand why I would have any involvement whatsoever with government offices aside from paying utilities. Could you please provide some clarification on that?

Thanks!

[Bruce]

Roadwarrior - a word of advice...........read Phil's post, then read it again.  Russia is a place to VISIT and LEAVE, not to live.   Believe me, I love Russia second to the USA because my wife's family is there and my wife is from there.  This summer will be my 22 round trip flight to Russia + two to Ukraine.  I go to visit, hopefully buy a couple of paintings by my favorite Russian artist and get back home.  To visit great, to live for a Westerner a solid NO.  By the way, I would not recommend anyone live in Ukraine either.  Safety is very important and both countries just really are not safe for Westerners.  The reality is that at any time a bunch of men could come to your flat, smash down your door in the middle of the night and haul you off to whatever.  Rights???   As they say in Brooklyn - Forget About It!

[chivo]

Roadwarrior - a word of advice...........read Phil's post, then read it again.  Russia is a place to VISIT and LEAVE, not to live.   Believe me, I love Russia second to the USA because my wife's family is there and my wife is from there.  This summer will be my 22 round trip flight to Russia + two to Ukraine.  I go to visit, hopefully buy a couple of paintings by my favorite Russian artist and get back home.  To visit great, to live for a Westerner a solid NO.  By the way, I would not recommend anyone live in Ukraine either.  Safety is very important and both countries just really are not safe for Westerners.  The reality is that at any time a bunch of men could come to your flat, smash down your door in the middle of the night and haul you off to whatever.  Rights???   As they say in Brooklyn - Forget About It!

Now for a different viewpoint. And please stop all the paranoia. No one is going to do this. You have more of a chance of having your home invaded in America by gang members.

I've read Phil's post and all I have to say is that I haven't had to deal with much of what he has. Sure, its a problem to deal with government agencies, but I rarely deal with them, in fact never (not even about paying utilities). Of course, I'm not trying to get a residency card, and yes, part of what he says is true.

For a single AM to come and live here one should have a few dollars stashed away and everything should be very doable without much problem. You don't have to be rich, just not poor.

Again for anyone who wants to listen, I can't tell you how my time here had changed my life in so many ways. The people I've met, the places I've been, the experiences I've had, good and bad, all, IMO, have been for the better. My perspective on life is so much different now. I've realized things in myself that I would never have if I hadn't made the move.

Does this mean I'll live here the rest of my life...maybe, maybe not.
I do know that I want to look back at my life in the hope that I did things on my terms as much as possible, and that I lived an interesting life. My time in Russia has been for the most part great, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Does this mean that I've had no problems? No, but nothing that I didn't deal with before I moved here.

Do I worry about the big bad boogie man waiting for me at every corner? Come on. My biggest fear is having to work for corporate America again...oh the horror. Believe me, I'd rather be abducted from my house and beaten to death  .

Anyone who wants to move here should have a little clout (money) when he comes, thats all thats needed, and of course a sense of adventure. You should know something about where you're moving though.

What one shouldn't do is come here with little or no money and expect to live his life like he was living before, assuming it was pretty good, or not bad, or that opportunity abounds like in your native country. If this is the case, then yes, stay home.

Now, I certainly wouldn't move here if I had a wife w/kids (no, not because its so bad here, but mainly because of all that is involved to do this logistically, but I know some who have BTW), but single, well, I'm here.

Please remember, IMO, it takes a certain individual, with a certain situation, for me to recommend moving here. Let me make myself perfectly clear, I do not suggest this for anyone, but for a few who meet certain parameters, this place can be amazing.

What I also wouldn't do is set up shop (business) here that directly conflicts with the locals. IOW, don't step on people's toes. Yes, this surely isn't the place to do that. If you remain anonymous, life should exist in a normal fashion.

I just returned from Kiev where I got my new visa. It took 1 day to accomplish this. Yes I had to go here and there to get it done, but it's done.

Its also possible to get work visas to stay for the year if you know where and how to do this. Mine will be ready in 2 months, and no its not from any English school. To the OP, yes, the 1-yr business visa rules have changed.

Learn how to play the game, and life is not much different than anywhere else.

If you can handle yourself in different situations, understand what needs to be done, and more importantly, understand who can do it for you, things shouldn't/won't be that much of a problem.

That is of course if you're not afraid of the boogie man.  Good luck.

chivo

[Phil dAmore]

Thank you for your feedback. I'm a bit surprised, though, as I was under the impression that I could remain in the country for one year on a one-year business visa as long as I obtain the required paperwork through a specialist agency (for a fee, of course). Has this recently changed?

In response to Phil, do you work in an industry in which you have dealings with the government or something? As for me, I'm pretty much off the radar as I work for a private U.S. company remotely through the Internet, and I work from home. Aside from times during which a visa has to be renewed, I don't understand why I would have any involvement whatsoever with government offices aside from paying utilities. Could you please provide some clarification on that?

Thanks!

A little background:

In August of 2007 Mr. Putin installed a new Prime Minister, one Mr. Viktor Zubkov.  Mr. Zubkovs first, and by all indications ONLY action was to immediately change the way business visas are issued and the terms of validity.  Here's the way it works now:

Yes, you can get a one-year, multi-entry business visa just like before.  However, under the new rules you are only permitted to remain in Russia for no more than 90 consecutive days at at time, after which you must leave the country and stay gone for a minimum of 90 days. (You don't have to go home but you can't stay here.)  Then you may return for another 90... then you have to leave again.  So in practice a one year visa only allows you to stay in Russia for a maximum of 6 months, broken up into 3-month intervals.

It gets worse.

When it is time to renew the visa, the visa holder (that's you) must return to either their home country or a country where they have legal, documented residence.  That means at least one trip a year back to the U.S. and that can get expensive.  Oh and don't forget you will need to re-register you visa each and every time you come back to Russia.  Here in Petersburg registrations are currently running around $100- $130.  For putting a  stamp on a piece of paper.

The reasoning behind these changes according to Mr. Zubkov is to deter people from living in Russia permanently on business visas.  He has a point.  Biz visas were never meant to be used as means of living in Russia indefinitely.  Many expats, including myself have been doing this though.  Why? Because it is all but impossible to obtain a residency card. Mr. Zubkov failed to develop practical, workable methods that would make obtaining a legal residency card (basically a Russian 'Green Card') a simpler process.  Why?

Because they don't want foreigners here.

There are options.  Working visas are still available but those come with their own set of peculiarities and hazards.  If you get a working visa through a U.S. or other western company that has sound and legitimate business practices you will probably be okay.  Obtaining one through a Russian company is tantamount to selling yourself into slavery because they WILL (not can, WILL) use the threat of visa cancellation to get you to do all manner of unpleasant things.  Since the company you are working for issued the invitation, they own you. 

As Bruce stated and I concur:  You have no rights.  None. If your Russian employer (the one I just told you not to get a work visa through!) decides your services are no longer needed you will be dismissed most likely without your final pay.  If you don't believe me, ask RVR as it has happened to him also.

Jazzy's comment was accurate.  You don't have to be a billionaire to live here, but it helps.  Everything and everyone is for sale and if you have the means you can enjoy a wonderful life here.

Regarding my own involvement with the government: No, I do not work for them.  But like anyone else living here I deal with them on a daily basis.  No government can be held up as a model of streamlined efficiency but here in Russia they seem to go out of their way to make things as difficult as possible.  Matters that could be handled with a simple phone call almost anywhere else take an entire day... or longer and require traversing to different offices, none of which are located anywhere near each other.

Why is it this way?  That is a subject of endless debate.  My take on it is that Russians are incapable of divorcing themselves from the old and broken ways left over from Soviet times.  They are not stupid, but they seem to be more comfortable keeping what they have -knowing that it doesn't work- than take a chance on something new.  Look no further than the main selling point of the upcoming 'election' on Sunday.  A vote for Medvedev is a vote for continued stability.  More of the same.  Nothing changes.  Just the way Russians like it.

It appears that Russian law is subject to a great deal of interpretation.  Unlike in the west where every possible permutation of application is considered and written into the bill before it passes, here in Russia they simply pass a law (or more frequently issue a decree) and THEN worry about how to implement it.  That's why if you ask 3 different government workers the same question you will get at least 3 different answers and a directive to go to a different office. 

I don't worry about having my door kicked in during the night. In my time here I've had very few bad things happen.  Only once was I the subject of an attempted mugging. My dealings with the local police have been few and dare I say it: pleasant.   I strive to keep a low profile.  I learned very quickly that the best way to stay out of trouble is to keep the eyes and ears open, and the mouth shut.

Lastly:  If you are serious about living here, it is in your very best interest to be as competent in the Russian language as you can.  Not only because it makes communication easier but because it provides a wonderful window on how Russians actually think.  Understanding their thought processes go a very long way toward making life here bearable.

To repeat: Unless you have an extremely high tolerance for inefficiency, apathy,corruption,and thinly-veiled contempt, DO NOT MOVE HERE!

Chivo:

Good to hear that you got the visa.  But what did it cost you?  Did you have to buy the Ukraine residency card?  I am told that the card costs $350 and the one-day visa costs $400.  Not to mention your travel expenses. You got a what, 3 month visa?  Maybe things are different in Moscow but up here an invitation takes a month to obtain. 

Learning how to play the game can be mighty difficult when they are constantly changing the rules in the middle of said game.

[chivo]

A little background:

In August of 2007 Mr. Putin installed a new Prime Minister, one Mr. Viktor Zubkov.  Mr. Zubkovs first, and by all indications ONLY action was to immediately change the way business visas are issued and the terms of validity.  Here's the way it works now:

Yes, you can get a one-year, multi-entry business visa just like before.  However, under the new rules you are only permitted to remain in Russia for no more than 90 consecutive days at at time, after which you must leave the country and stay gone for a minimum of 90 days. (You don't have to go home but you can't stay here.)  Then you may return for another 90... then you have to leave again.  So in practice a one year visa only allows you to stay in Russia for a maximum of 6 months, broken up into 3-month intervals.

It gets worse.

When it is time to renew the visa, the visa holder (that's you) must return to either their home country or a country where they have legal, documented residence.  That means at least one trip a year back to the U.S. and that can get expensive.  Oh and don't forget you will need to re-register you visa each and every time you come back to Russia.  Here in Petersburg registrations are currently running around $100- $130.  For putting a  stamp on a piece of paper.

The reasoning behind these changes according to Mr. Zubkov is to deter people from living in Russia permanently on business visas.  He has a point.  Biz visas were never meant to be used as means of living in Russia indefinitely.  Many expats, including myself have been doing this though.  Why? Because it is all but impossible to obtain a residency card. Mr. Zubkov failed to develop practical, workable methods that would make obtaining a legal residency card (basically a Russian 'Green Card') a simpler process.  Why?

Because they don't want foreigners here.

I don't agree with this.

The changes are all about   - reciprocity -,  matching the EU and the US.

Take a look at the visas rules in these countries (EU, US) and you'll find that Russians have the same problems, actually worse, they can't get a tourist visa.

I also work with an American who has a residency card through his wife. Not sure how, when, or why  because I didn't ask for details, but he does have it just the same, so it is possible.

There are options.  Working visas are still available but those come with their own set of peculiarities and hazards.  If you get a working visa through a U.S. or other western company that has sound and legitimate business practices you will probably be okay.  Obtaining one through a Russian company is tantamount to selling yourself into slavery because they WILL (not can, WILL) use the threat of visa cancellation to get you to do all manner of unpleasant things.  Since the company you are working for issued the invitation, they own you. 

As Bruce stated and I concur:  You have no rights.  None. If your Russian employer (the one I just told you not to get a work visa through!) decides your services are no longer needed you will be dismissed most likely without your final pay.  If you don't believe me, ask RVR as it has happened to him also.

Just because he was used by a company in Russia, doesn't mean it doesn't happen in America, let's say. It also doesn't mean that its the case 100% with everyone here because I know it doesn't.

Yes, some companies will do this, but...

Maybe you'd like to talk to the guy who watched his 401k with Enron go from 1.3 million to 5k overnight. I remember watching him during an interview fighting back the tears talking about it. My heart was absolutely broken watching it.

Judging by whats been happening with company sponsored 401k's lately, seems you better take a closer look at your own if you have one. They are not all created equal, or managed equally as well.

Jazzy's comment was accurate.  You don't have to be a billionaire to live here, but it helps.  Everything and everyone is for sale and if you have the means you can enjoy a wonderful life here.

Hogwash. I'm no where near even a millionaire. Again, as stated in many other threads, the corruption is in your face here. Other places, America for instance, hides it, thats all.

I also recommend anyone thinking of moving here to have some backing, moneywise (10k and a decent job is my bottom line limit). That should be a no-brainer. Just for the record I came with no job and more money, but with more debt than I have now also.

Regarding my own involvement with the government: No, I do not work for them.  But like anyone else living here I deal with them on a daily basis. 

Why? How? I don't. I've been here for 4 years and I've been in 1 government office in all this time, and that was with a friend just to keep her company. Again if you mean indirectly, then still it happens everywhere.

No government can be held up as a model of streamlined efficiency but here in Russia they seem to go out of their way to make things as difficult as possible.

Sometimes it seems this way, agreed

Matters that could be handled with a simple phone call almost anywhere else take an entire day... or longer and require traversing to different offices, none of which are located anywhere near each other.

I know the process.

I will tell you about the 1 time I paid my internet bill only to have them not turn it on. It did take them 6 months to finally reimburse me my money after I went to their office numerous times and filled out a few forms. Oh, and I had the receipt all that time .

Once in 4 years is tolerable, but if I had to deal with this everyday like you say you're doing, i'd want to leave and kill too. Well maybe not in that order.

Why is it this way?  That is a subject of endless debate.  My take on it is that Russians are incapable of divorcing themselves from the old and broken ways left over from Soviet times.  They are not stupid, but they seem to be more comfortable keeping what they have -knowing that it doesn't work- than take a chance on something new.  Look no further than the main selling point of the upcoming 'election' on Sunday.  A vote for Medvedev is a vote for continued stability.  More of the same.  Nothing changes.  Just the way Russians like it.

It appears that Russian law is subject to a great deal of interpretation.  Unlike in the west where every possible permutation of application is considered and written into the bill before it passes, here in Russia they simply pass a law (or more frequently issue a decree) and THEN worry about how to implement it.  That's why if you ask 3 different government workers the same question you will get at least 3 different answers and a directive to go to a different office. 

Again, never had to deal with this so my view is different.

I don't worry about having my door kicked in during the night. In my time here I've had very few bad things happen.  Only once was I the subject of an attempted mugging. My dealings with the local police have been few and dare I say it: pleasant.   I strive to keep a low profile.  I learned very quickly that the best way to stay out of trouble is to keep the eyes and ears open, and the mouth shut.

my sentiments also.

Lastly:  If you are serious about living here, it is in your very best interest to be as competent in the Russian language as you can.  Not only because it makes communication easier but because it provides a wonderful window on how Russians actually think.  Understanding their thought processes go a very long way toward making life here bearable.
Yes learning as much of the language is vital, but you can make do until then. Funny, I can say the same about America/Americans, although they do smile more.

To repeat: Unless you have an extremely high tolerance for inefficiency, apathy,corruption,and thinly-veiled contempt, DO NOT MOVE HERE!

I'm indifferent to all of this as I was in America with much of the same thing. There's not much I can do about it so I roll with the punches. There was a lot of things in America that drove me crazy, IOW, pick your poison.

I was listening to a Charles Barkley interview on my computer oneday and the interviewer was talking about justice in America, to which Barkley replied "rich people don't go to jail in America". Of course Charles being Charles it was funny.

There's also a lot of truth to it. Point being if you have money the law works in America a whole lot better than when you don't. Just ask anyone who doesn't have money or has had a public defender for his/her lawyer.

Chivo:

Good to hear that you got the visa.  But what did it cost you?  Did you have to buy the Ukraine residency card?  I am told that the card costs $350 and the one-day visa costs $400.  Not to mention your travel expenses. You got a what, 3 month visa?  Maybe things are different in Moscow but up here an invitation takes a month to obtain. 

Learning how to play the game can be mighty difficult when they are constantly changing the rules in the middle of said game.

Thanks. The residency card is $200 and is good for 6 months so you can use it twice if need be. One day visa is $300 regardless, but drops $50 per day to a minimum of $75 for 7 days or longer.

I can get a invitation in 1 week for a double entry 3 month visa with 2 free registrations for $145. the registrations take about 2 minutes of office time with most of the time spent travelling to and from the office (about 1 hour max).

If you read all of my post, I'm currently waiting for a work visa with a international company.

Yes Russia is unpredictable so one does have to remain flexible.

BTW, the Russian company I work for paid $500 of my expenses...the catch, I have to continue working for them. Since its a business visa with another sponsor, there are no other strings and not much they can do but trust me. Seems they need me , and trust me, I mean what's not to trust, I'm an American  .
Here's a breakdown for you.

$200 - residency card good for 6 months
$300 visa
$145 invitation for 3 month double entry visa w/2 free registrations
$160 - round trip train ticket Moscow-Kiev no hotel/apt needed
$25 - Miscellanous expenses
-$500 paid by company

Things could be better by not having to deal with the extra hassle for sure, but things could be worse. Like Russia, and most of life in general, its all how we look at it, isn't it 

Good luck

chivo

[chivo]

Theres been a lot of talk lately about living in the FSU, or not and all the problems that exist here.

This will be my last post here (maybe I'll start another thread about this later, I don't know). I know I don't want to go on about what's best, or get into a pissing match

I want everyone to know that I'm not looking at living here through rose colored glasses. There are things that can drive you crazy for sure, and we have talked about some of them.

I just want to point out that we all have our priorities in life, and we all have things we will/will not tolerate.

I have stated some of my reasons for being here. As I tell anyone, anywhere, if you don't like where you live, move or deal with it.

I have this option (to move if I want to). If I didn't like it here more, much more than the crap you have to deal with here, I wouldn't be here. I'm not some masochist thats needs to be here. I actually enjoy most of my time here.

I love life, and I like living in Moscow. Some of you might walk in my shoes and hate it, I don't know. Personally, I try like hell to avoid some/many of the things that some of you talk about. I'll pay extra to do so. it's called convenience.

If there's one thing Americans are used to, its convenience.

The thing is, I don't have to pay that much extra for it, and I don't run into all that many problems that require this. Maybe I've been lucky.

I don't care one way or another if you want to live here or not. It's your choice. All I know is that i wouldn't trade places with the lot of you. Maybe/probably the feeling is mutual.

my lady always tells me that thinking positive attracts positive things into your life...this from a Russian BTW.

Thats the bottom line. I feel mostly positive about things here, even though I'm prone to bitch more than i should, which should be never considering what I've seen in other countries.

you make sacrifices to have other things. Life is really what you make of it, how you roll with the BS, and what gives you pleasure. Be it Beverly Hills or Tibet.

Its easy to point a finger at Russia and look at whats bad here. I mean its right in your face. Other places, the dirt is just harder to see, thats all. It certainly is there if you look hard enough.

I've spent a lot time here and in America, and you know what? I've seen a lot of unhappy people in both countries. In reality, more so in America. Like its crime, corruption, greed, America's unhappiness is masked behind material things, denial, or that ever present "smile".

I'm not going to suggest for anyone move here or not. Know yourself and make the choices that make YOU happy (if married, then what's in everyone's best interest to be happy). In the end, that's all you have to answer to.

Good luck as always,

chivo

[Wayne]

I have been to Krasnoyarsk.  Krasair has daily flights from Moscow on a large, modern plane.  The airport outside Krasnoyarsk is very small and out-dated. The baggage claim barn is a real joke!  You have to walk down a ladder from the plane and then walk over to the clain shack.  Taxi fare around the city is usuallly around $5 US.  Typical bus service.  The city is compact, located around a large river.  If you like rock climbing, there are some very interesting formations.  Summer is hot but short.  Winter, of course, very long and sometimes bitter cold.  Early Fall can be nice.  Not many Americans there.  If you want more information, pm me.

[RoadWarrior]

I want to thank everyone in this thread who took the time to give me their views. Although very few of you addressed my original request for information about specific cities, I believe that the information you did give me has proved far more valuable.

Ultimately, the change in the visa law is likely to put the kibosh on my aspirations of moving to Russia. I had counted on a relatively easy-to-obtain one-year multi-entry business visa, and the absence of such a visa is a deal killer for me. I can’t go there for three months and then find another solution. That’s not what I had in mind.

Additionally, the picture that you and others have painted is of a country that’s far more expensive than it was just five years ago. There’s a lot more money flowing in Russia now, salaries are higher, and inflation has been through the roof. Russia now seems as expensive as the United States to me, and I left the USA partially to leverage my U.S. income (high five figures) against less expensive geographic locations. Russia seems to fail this test now as well.

Finally, another major problem for me is the way in which ISPs bill high-speed Internet. In the U.S. and most other countries, you pay for a certain speed and receive unlimited traffic. However, in Russia and other FSU nations, you receive a very small “cap” on your total traffic (usually around 2GB per month), which means that you could very quickly exceed your monthly limit and end up with a huge bill. Since I work through the Internet using Remote Desktop Connection, my Internet demands are very intensive. It could cost me $300-$400 per month for Internet alone in Russia with such unreasonable download limits. This is a huge concern for me.

Now, in speaking with other expats, Tbilisi, Georgia was suggested as a place that might be a better option. The cost of living is lower there and you can get a one-year business visa with relative ease. However, Georgia also imposes Internet limits on traffic, which, while perhaps insignificant to many others on this site, is a big problem for me.

This has been an enlightening discussion, but also a very disappointing one. However, it’s better that I find out now than to arrive misinformed and learn the hard way.

As for the safety issues addressed in this thread, I don’t put much stock in that kind of talk. Sure, there’s a 0.000005% that Russian goons would break down my door and run off with me in the night, but I tend to be the type of person who avoids confrontation with people, and I rarely get on people’s bad side. I’m not a big executive with a multinational corporation, so I would not be on anyone’s radar as a kidnapping target for ransom.

I lived very comfortably in Medellín, Colombia for 10 months in 2005 and had zero problems. I never felt my safety threatened, yet many thought I was foolish for moving there. The reality on the ground did not match the impressions most had about the city.

Unfortunately, I feel like I’m back to square one now. I have four basic requirements for my next destination, and I’m having a hell of a time finding a country that can fulfill all four:

1)   Substantially lower cost of living than the USA—I’m interested in leveraging my income against a lower-cost location and thereby save money.
2)   Fast, reliable high-speed Internet of approximately 1Mbps or greater, without a small traffic limit
3)   Visa policies that allow for a long-term stay in the country without major difficulty
4)   Most importantly, I’m looking for a country with interesting, attractive women to date for a possible long-term relationship in a country in which my perceived value is higher than in the USA. Let’s be honest—that’s ultimately why most of us have looked for relationships in the FSU. Most here (myself included) feel as though our perceived worth in the USA is not as high as it should be, for various reasons, and we’re looking for a playing field that’s more favorable to our success.

I’m strongly considering China and India now, though the women in those countries are either far more difficult to date than FSU women (India) or not as interesting to me personally (China). At this point, I’m really not sure about what I’m going to do.

[BC]

Hungary?

[BC]

Turkey.. yeah that's where I would go considering your criteria.