Guideline to Decide if She is a Life Partner

[Gator]

In the thread about East-West relationships, DKMM revealed his plans to date 23-yo women.  Many questioned his intent, saying it would be a risk and that he needed to spend much time with her before deciding about marriage, perhaps three years.

I offered a guideline for DKMM in deciding if the woman was not only ready but good for him.  Perhaps it applies to women of all ages, whether AW or RW, so I offer it for general discussion. 

The guideline does not involve going through a checklist; the answer integrates and synthesizes everything you know about her and yourself.   

Would you be happy if you had to work for this woman (i. e., would she be a good boss for you)?

The answer says a lot about how she treats people, the respect she earns, her wisdom, how she handles a crises, how she resolves a conflict, the sense of trust, etc.  You need to spend a lot of time with her to know the answer.

Of course, she would never be your boss (although some OMBs may have found otherwise  ).  Yet, in a balanced marriage she would be your partner.

If the answer is "yes," you have a superb life partner who will enable you to accomplish far more in this world, including your career and business plus of course your future family. 

If you say she has not had enough life experience to know the answer.....well, she is too young IMO.

There are cases where she may be a “no” for you but a “yes” for someone else.   

[Nando]

I agree with you but you don't need a long time together to answer this question.
You can see how your woman treats other people in many situations.
I could have answered that question about my GF after a week of meeting her and spending time with her.
wether she is going to move from Ukraine and her family and friends that is an entirely different question

[KenC]

Gator,
Your premise is far too simplistic for my taste.  I have had some very good bosses, some of them women too, but that doesn't mean I wanted to marry them or that we would even be a decent couple together.  You are only addressing the logical side of things.  Here iswhat I posted to Kuna in the other thread and it applies here too:

Kuna,
Even though your advice is logical, you are starting to sound a little like you are describing a science project or at the very least, a business venture.  All the talk about "low risk" with the implied maximum return is not addressing any emotional development.  You know, that thing called "Love."  Many of us (myself included) have pushed the envelope of logic in the name of love.  To me, a successful long term relationship is a balance of logic and emotional bonding.  All the pieces might be a perfect fit, but without the glue of love to hold it all together, you just have two people that are well matched on paper.

Many of the newer marrieds, like you, had developed a plan to find the perfect match based on logic and facts only.  While that may be a great way to find a good starting point in a relationship, it is just a starting point.  Without the development of love in a marriage, it is doomed for failure sooner or later IMO.
KenC

[myrddin]

Gator,
Your premise is far too simplistic for my taste.  I have had some very good bosses, some of them women too, but that doesn't mean I wanted to marry them or that we would even be a decent couple together.  You are only addressing the logical side of things.  Here iswhat I posted to Kuna in the other thread and it applies here too:

Ken, I don't think Gator is suggesting that the exercise works both ways!  It's just one useful way to think about your relationship.  Often someone involved in a relationship (especially a deeply emotional one) has trouble seeing things that are obvious from "the outside".

It sounds like a very good question to ask, after a relationship (RW or not) has started to establish some of the love and romance and head towards commitment. 

I'm a very logical person (and trained in science), but I value love very highly (at *least* as high as logic ).  I've seen many friends and family set themselves up for problems by putting emotions above logical advice.  I did it myself when my now ex told me, "Sometimes love is not enough."  If a friend told me his lady said that to him, I would have immediately seen what was coming.  To me, love is the reason for everything else.

So I don't think of this as "the" one guideline to determine if she's right as a life partner.  But it is certainly a very good question to consider when trying to decide.

[AnastassiaAsh]

One of the important things is to actually figure out how much of what is essential for a successful relationship/marriage.

My answer is: 100% of love, 100% of common sense, 100% of logic, 100% of emotional bonding.....Thus the risk at the end will be minimal, if nothing at all.

I know that 100% of just 'love' is failure...or...100% of just logic is a failure too...

  

[myrddin]

Exactly!  I'd say Anastassia has that equation pretty much right!   

[Gator]

Myrddin and Anastassia,

Faith and begorra, good points!  Yes, both sides of the brain should be working.


KenC,

Geez I expected some controversy.  But I thought it would come from men wanting June Cleaver, not from men with long life experiences.

Regarding your comment about "love," some things surely can go unstated.   One can only assume that love is the reason a man stays with a woman long enough to answer the question I offered. 

KenC, when you say “love”, do not forget Shakespeare, "Love is blind."   Is "love"  true love or limerence?

[see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence].

Most relationships start with high voltage desire but not true love.  IMO true love takes time for which there is no substitute.

You fell for Lena straight away, and Jet was even faster.  And both of you have successful marriages, you for eight years and Jet for five.  I suppose that proves that if a man has great intuition – fine, don’t ask my question to himself!

Looking back on my life, I can be thankful for my many accomplishments and blessings.      Yet, I could have done more, much more, with a life partner as I described and been happier too.     And we were in love.  

[KenC]

Myrddin and Anastassia,

Faith and begorra, good points!  Yes, both sides of the brain should be working.


KenC,

Geez I expected some controversy.  But I thought it would come from men wanting June Cleaver, not from men with long life experiences.

Regarding your comment about "love," some things surely can go unstated.   One can only assume that love is the reason a man stays with a woman long enough to answer the question I offered. 

KenC, when you say “love”, do not forget Shakespeare, "Love is blind."   Is "love"  true love or limerence?

[see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence].

Most relationships start with high voltage desire but not true love.  IMO true love takes time for which there is no substitute.

You fell for Lena straight away, and Jet was even faster.  And both of you have successful marriages, you for eight years and Jet for five.  I suppose that proves that if a man has great intuition – fine, don’t ask my question to himself!
Looking back on my life, I can be thankful for my many accomplishments and blessings.      Yet, I could have done more, much more, with a life partner as I described and been happier too.     And we were in love.  

Gator,
I do not think I had any greater intuition than most or that I was just lucky, although there is a certain amount of luck involved too.  The heart of this matter IMO, is that I had the patience to make sure ours was love and not just infatuation.  Which BTW is what I think is the biggest failing of this process.  Too many men and women jump into marriage based on the initial infatuations.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC,

We are in agreement regarding the infatuation part.

BTW, great women are rare and obvious, meaning you and Jet did not need super intuition.  I imagine you kept pinching yourself to see if you were dreaming. 

For other OMBs, I chose KenC and Jet as examples because they have recently told the story of their first meeting with their wives. 

[KenC]

Gator,
If anyone reads Jet's and my trip report they would know that you can do just about everything wrong and still get it right.  I do think that patience was the key eliment to me over coming the risks.  Of course, I am a piker at patience in comparison to you!
 

You are the KING of patience, Gator!
KenC

[BC]

Any guideline, however perfect is worthless if you don't have the time to make a determination.  How long does it take to get to know your boss?

[AnastassiaAsh]

That's why it is actually so hard to understand exactly what person means by 'love'. Everybody has their own meaning and it varies from each person to another. Some say it is friendship plus sex, which of which is more also can vary. Some say true love can't be at first, it only comes with years and they might be right too. But for me personally true love has absolutely nothing with love itself, or liking. For me the main word is 'commitment' that will never ever change (other than in the case of adultery and death). What is affection, love, friendship and everything else without commitment? Just a good relationship that may eventually fall apart too. That glue that KenC was talking about is actually for me commitment and a promise to God and to your spouse. Feelings, infatuation and yes, even the feeling of love, can in time change, depending on what you are going through emotionally with your spouse. But if there is commitment to work it out no matter what - that's maturity, that's desire, that's TRUE LOVE, that's something sacrificial and not really about yourself but both of you and God. This is higher than you and one would  think twice if he/she should really abandon marriage for this or that reason if he made a promise to God. How can you fail God? Do you want to fail this promise to God?....This is where strength is, this is where true success is......not the lack of problems themselves...i can go on and on about this..........  .....These are the questions one has to ask his/her future fiancee, and definitely not in the last stages of the relationship. Here is the guideline for you.

[dneid]

Great thread!  Has anyone ever read Gary Chapman's The 5 Love Languages?  He spends at least a chapter talking about the "phases" of love.  We tend to start with infatution, then we move to a more "realistic" love.  Then we move to a conscious decision to love tour spouse not matter what his/her flaws maybe.  Does she pick her toes?  So what?  Is she tender and supportive?  Great!  If you have not read this, it is a great read.  Very thought provoking.  I am enjoying everyone's comments.  Yes, love is very different for many people.  For healthier, emotionally stable folks, it is more like what we mean when we say "I love you."  For people with dysfunctional backgrounds (my ex's sexually abusive brother is a good example), love can become twisted and unhealthy.  We are all products of our environments, but this is not an excuse for not dealing with any problems.  I learned a great deal about my past relationship when I went through therapy.  Very illuminating experience I would be willing to share if you all want me to.

Once again, I enjoy most of what I read from all of you.  I am very happy to have found this site.

[oldernotwiser]

Anastasia wrote

What is affection, love, friendship and everything else without commitment? Just a good relationship that may eventually fall apart too. That glue that KenC was talking about is actually for me commitment and a promise to God and to your spouse. Feelings, infatuation and yes, even the feeling of love, can in time change, depending on what you are going through emotionally with your spouse. But if there is commitment to work it out no matter what - that's maturity, that's desire, that's TRUE LOVE, that's something sacrificial and not really about yourself but both of you and God. This is higher than you and one would  think twice if he/she should really abandon marriage for this or that reason if he made a promise to God. How can you fail God?

I thought this was very well said, maybe I just agree with you.

Guideline for finding life partner, I don't know if Anastasia would be a good boss, I am guessing probably

But I would say, find someone who feels much like this, no matter what country she originates from, whose company you enjoy.  Make the same commitment and follow through with it.

[I/O]

Of course, she would never be your boss (although some OMBs may have found otherwise  ). 

Gator Gator Gator.............. She MUST always be the boss.(In her mind) The trick is creating enough of an illusion within the marriage to allow her to continue to think she is the boss.

Regarding your comment about "love," some things surely can go unstated.

Agreed, however, if this place has a failing, it is that we oft get too involved in the practical, or logical and focus little on the "Love" aspect. That seems to be the nature of the beast.

The only thing which will build real love, and I mean real love is TIME..!! Further, time usually reveals all, of at least enough to make a reasonable judgement about progression. Goodness knows, I messed around longer than most and honestly, coming down to the marriage thing, it felt plenty soon enough.

The question I asked myself time and again was this, "Do I want to get married"? or "Do I want to marry THIS woman"? In other words, is it THIS WOMAN who is attracting me to marriage, or is marriage attracting me to this woman. Or put another way, do I have a "Wife vacancy"?

IMO, if one can answer this openly and honestly to themselves, then the guidelines, criteria, whatever you like to call it, kinda sorts itself out. If you own standards are where they should be, then it must be the very high standard/s of this particular woman luring you to marriage.

Gator, a good but difficult subject to really get a grip on. The only thing which was ever stuck in my mind as being non negotiable when I considered morality, personality, education, elocution, stickability etc was that she HAD to have a cute arse. (I did get that much, as for the rest, I got much more)

I/O   

[Kuna]

Firslty I would say that my comments in the other thread were not about deciding if someone was a life partner.... but rather whether someone corresponding with girls over the internet were putting themselves in the right place to meet a life partner if they are writing to 23 yr olds.

Examples:

Would you be in the right place to meet an ideal life partner at home if you were meeting women at 3am in nightclubs at home?  Maybe... maybe not!  Maybe you're just meeting a lot of girls who like to have "fun".

Would you be looking for a life partner by handing cruising a cafe right outside of a drug rehab clinic?

How about those guys that dream of dating stippers???  Good strategy for meeting a lifetime partner?


Why not have a plan that puts in in the best "virtual location" to find women more likely to be a lifetime partner?

Kuna,
Even though your advice is logical, you are starting to sound a little like you are describing a science project or at the very least, a business venture.  All the talk about "low risk" with the implied maximum return is not addressing any emotional development.  You know, that thing called "Love."  Many of us (myself included) have pushed the envelope of logic in the name of love.  To me, a successful long term relationship is a balance of logic and emotional bonding.  All the pieces might be a perfect fit, but without the glue of love to hold it all together, you just have two people that are well matched on paper.

Many of the newer marrieds, like you, had developed a plan to find the perfect match based on logic and facts only.  While that may be a great way to find a good starting point in a relationship, it is just a starting point.  Without the development of love in a marriage, it is doomed for failure sooner or later IMO.
KenC

Ken,

a little while ago we had a thread in here about Logic Versus Emotion...  Personally I don't think a balane of logic and emotion helps men in the early stages of this search and its a belief I've had since BEFORE my search started.

I believe a man is more likely to be successful if he enforces LOGIC first... and once he's satisfied his base demands/requirements/wishes/needs he is free to let his heart run wild.

Too many men allow fantasy to alter their usual behaviour and therefore they are more likely to fail.

By the way...  as for my approach being too much like a "business venture"... I think we (men and women in this pursuit) should reserve the right to be as ruthless and self serving as possible WHILE WE ARE IN THE SEARCH PHASE.  Why would you not say "I want X, Y AND Z" AND stick to it?

In saying that I must admit my wife was 1 year less than my minimum age criteria and it took me about 3 weeks to break my rule and write to her.  I LITERALLY fought the desire to write to her but relented because of two things...  Most importantly the comments written in her profile matched (almost precisely) what I was looking for, and Her photos with huge beaming smile and natural cheekiness were just too cute to resist!

For all newbies... I'd urge them to use logic first (to stay as close as possible to reality) and after they meet and click with a lady let your heart and imagination take over (but never ignore logic).

Just my blind uneducated approach...  and if I were to do it again I'd follow the same approach.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Some thoughts on "Guideline to Decide if She is a Life Partner"

- Know yourself
- Understand what you're looking for a why
- If you're simply looking for someone infinitely more beautiful, sexy, educated, younger, etc than you can find at home you may be successful, but it will probably take longer and the risk of maintaining the marriage will be higher
- When in correspondence phase - reject any woman that falls in love before meeting.  On very few occasions such a relationship might work out (I know of at least two such examples in RWD) but the vast majority won't. 
- How much effort does she make in maintaining contact with you?  Are you the one driving the "getting to know you phase" or is she equally interested in you?
- How does she react when you call at different times?  Calls frequently not answered???  Cut you off short???  Start walking!

After meeting;

- Take a 3rd person view of how you two are interacting.  Too many men will get tied up in their own emotions and not see the reality of the situation;
- Does she want you to meet her family and friends
- How does she interact with those family and friends?  Imagine her fitting into your life at home similarly - how would that feel in 2 years...  5 years... or 15 years...
- How does she treat shop keepers, waitresses, service providers?  Do you accept and apprecitae that?
- Is he proud of her home, family, environment?  I didn't want someone desperate to escape a bad life but if you're one of those desribed in #3 above you may be best targeting such a girl;
- Is she a giver or a taker?  It's hard to tell but something my wife did on our first meeting told me she was a giver.  We'd been writing for about 3 months previously and when she arrived in Kiev she handed me a gift (wrapped) with great pride and told me she "made this with my own hands".  It was a knitted scarf - and I knew her busy schedule wouldn't have been made any easier by making this for me
- Money. Is there an expectation that you'll shower her with gifts or is she modest in the way she spends?  Its up to you but modest budgeting is probably safer than an irresponsible spendthrift
- Maturity.  There's so many delicious, exciting and alluring young girls out there but do they have the maturity (through lie experience) to know what they really want.  Some men want to believe FSUW are "much" more mature than AW - but they are probably just justifying a decision to chase very young women;

Deep discussions about the future
- Ask her what she wants.  Doesn't know?  Be worried!  Incompatible?  Be worried!
- Be honest.  Why fake it when the truth will finally come out!



I personally logic should take a LARGE role in how we conduct ourselves in the beginning and emotions and/or fantasy are best repressed until you have found "stability".

Don't get me wrong... I LOVED the head rush/heart thumping fun in the courting phase with my wife but I still believe logic played a big part in our (mutual) success.

[SANDRO43]

Would you be happy if you had to work for this woman (i. e., would she be a good boss for you)?

My very first IBM boss was an Irish-American by the name of Paula Coughlin, a very good boss but I woulnd't have even remotely considered courting her (she was rather older and, most of all, had a horsey face ).

What if I were courting a hairdresser ? I'm none too good with a pair of scissors .

[Gator]

KenC wrote,

You are the KING of patience, Gator!

No, she is!  I am not the KING, just the future husband of the QUEEN of patience.

[Gator]

Kuna wrote,

For all newbies... I'd urge them to use logic first

Perhaps very important because logic flies out the window after you meet the women. 

The long distance courtship involved in the RW endeavor (or "escapade" as my friends call it) has the advantage of forcing  a separation.  Then one can be retrospective about what he observed, what he felt, where this is headed, etc.

Kuna, I seem to recall that your plan to do a comparative analysis collapsed midway with you returning to your future bride as soon as you could escape.  I do not think that decision to return was all logic, not even 50% logic.  Okay, tell me that I am wrong.

[SANDRO43]

Kuna, I seem to recall that your plan to do a comparative analysis collapsed midway with you returning to your future bride as soon as you could escape. I do not think that decision to return was all logic, not even 50% logic.

He may be an fervent reader of Shakespeare's works : 

Polonius[aside]: Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2

[KenC]

Kuna,
If I had used logic first, as you recommend, I would still be a swinging dick bachelor today.  Going to Russia to meet a woman just aint logical.  No way, no how.
KenC

[Kuna]

Kuna, I seem to recall that your plan to do a comparative analysis collapsed midway with you returning to your future bride as soon as you could escape.  I do not think that decision to return was all logic, not even 50% logic.  Okay, tell me that I am wrong.

Gator,

Logic was my guide throughout my search. 

Who to write to;
What age was Appropriate;
Number of cities I could visit;
Who to bump from the letters, and why;
Who to meet;
etc

Once I arrived in Kiev and met my (now) wife I knew there was no need to look further.  The way we clicked was enough to tell me the hundreds of emails we'd shared weren't fantasy - and there wasn't a single promise or declaration of love expressed in any of those emails.

Yes,  on the advice of some in RWD I went on to meet another but it was probably unfair to her.. all I wanted to do was spend more time with "Ms D" because I knew she was everything I was looking for.

Now...  it would be inhumane to expect anyone to go throughout the courting phase without feeling any emotion - though I would STILL urge newbies to resist the fantasies that are created in the mind (usually by men who fall for photos) at least until after meeting.  I think after meeting you can start to relax the logic but trying to resist the emotion will be an important part of anyone's success (IMHO).

By the way...  Your overuse of logic forced to you turn away your fiance originally (from memory)...  I'm glad you finally applied emotion because I believe you're one of the good guys and if anyone deserves a wonderful RW it's me (and then you - in no particular order...    )

Kuna

[Kuna]

Kuna,
If I had used logic first, as you recommend, I would still be a swinging dick bachelor today. 
KenC

It's ironic that you, the RWD member most commonly seen verbally bashing the sh!te out of members who ignore facts (logic) and get carried away with their swinging d!cks (emotion), is now an advocate of newbies letting emotion overrule logic.

Strange - very strange indeed...

I refer you to your recent poor behaviour through brutal attacks of DKMM and his struggle to give up something that was obviously going bad.  If he could have applied logic when the facts were in rather than being a slave to emotion he would have saved himself time, effort, $'s and possibly heartache.

(Sorry to DKMM for raising this again...  none of us need to be reminded of our mistakes.)

Kuna,
Going to Russia to meet a woman just aint logical.  No way, no how.
KenC

Whether trying to meet a FSUW for marriage is "logical" or not is a personal thing. 

For me, it was perfectly logical.  If your search felt illogical I guess you got lucky!




Now Ken, let me get this straight... 

You're saying logic doesn't or can't play a role in this pursuit, and therefore we will all be spared you're abuse in future when any member, new or not, falls in love with a photo, makes a ridiculous decision or chases a folly that others can see but he can't (because he is consumed with EMOTION.

Is that where we are at???  I sure hope so!

[Kuna]

For Ken's benefit (because it seems he must be bored again and trying to start another argument) let me quote myself!


Ken said:

Quote from: KenC on Today at 00:33:30
Kuna,
Even though your advice is logical, you are starting to sound a little like you are describing a science project or at the very least, a business venture.  All the talk about "low risk" with the implied maximum return is not addressing any emotional development.  You know, that thing called "Love."  Many of us (myself included) have pushed the envelope of logic in the name of love.  To me, a successful long term relationship is a balance of logic and emotional bonding.  All the pieces might be a perfect fit, but without the glue of love to hold it all together, you just have two people that are well matched on paper.

Many of the newer marrieds, like you, had developed a plan to find the perfect match based on logic and facts only.  While that may be a great way to find a good starting point in a relationship, it is just a starting point.  Without the development of love in a marriage, it is doomed for failure sooner or later IMO.

I said (and I'll bold be bits he might have difficulty understanding)

Firstly I would say that my comments in the other thread were not about deciding if someone was a life partner.... but rather whether someone corresponding with girls over the internet were putting themselves in the right place to meet a life partner if they are writing to 23 yr olds.

Ken,

a little while ago we had a thread in here about Logic Versus Emotion...  Personally I don't think a balance of logic and emotion helps men in the early stages of this search and its a belief I've had since BEFORE my search started.

I believe a man is more likely to be successful if he enforces LOGIC first... and once he's satisfied his base demands/requirements/wishes/needs he is free to let his heart run wild.

Too many men allow fantasy to alter their usual behaviour and therefore they are more likely to fail.

By the way...  as for my approach being too much like a "business venture"... I think we (men and women in this pursuit) should reserve the right to be as ruthless and self serving as possible WHILE WE ARE IN THE SEARCH PHASE.  Why would you not say "I want X, Y AND Z" AND stick to it?

In saying that I must admit my wife was 1 year less than my minimum age criteria and it took me about 3 weeks to break my rule and write to her.  I LITERALLY fought the desire to write to her but relented because of two things...  Most importantly the comments written in her profile matched (almost precisely) what I was looking for, and Her photos with huge beaming smile and natural cheekiness were just too cute to resist!

For all newbies... I'd urge them to use logic first (to stay as close as possible to reality) and after they meet and click with a lady let your heart and imagination take over (but never ignore logic).

Just my blind uneducated approach...  and if I were to do it again I'd follow the same approach.

Kuna

So Ken... DO YOU GET IT OR ARE YOU SO BORED YOU WANT TO ARGUE IT OUT?