Guideline to Decide if She is a Life Partner

[BillyB]

  What is the difference between a man trying to fill a wife vacancy and a guy going to meet a woman that caught his interest?  HUGE IMO.  Lena and I develped a friendship and a sincere interest in each other long before there was any romantic developments.  When those romantic feelings did arise, it led to a loving relationship than culminated in our marriage.

Ken, there's not many guys that would spend as much time to get to know their RW before marrying her more than I. I went to visit Natalia as a friend first and I made sure she was what I wanted and that she really wanted me before I proposed. But I'm not ashamed to admit that I went to the FSU to look for a wife. That was my ultimate goal there and love would have to happen before I propose anyway. With the right person, marriage should be a wonderful thing. If I told sincere RW I swore I'd never marry again, they probably would stop communicating with me and move on to guys who know what must happen in this endeavor for two people to be together.

You swore you would never marry again in 98. You also found Lena in 98 but I'm sure you did not tell her this because deep down, you did not want to scare her away and you wanted to find a person you wanted to marry and you did. Sincere men just don't go to the FSU to visit RW just to have a long term/long distance/part time relationship. Even when single guys say they go to the FSU just to sightsee or explore their heritage, I don't believe them that that is their ultimate objective. They go there in hopes someday they may have a woman by their side everyday and that will only happen through marriage in this endeavor.

[AnastassiaAsh]

I agree with everything you have just said, BillyB! 

[KenC]

Anastassia,
There are some of us that do not need another person to feel complete.  I was married to one woman for 21 years after dating her for 4 years.  We had (and still have) two beautiful children that we raised together.  I was entertaining many different AW (one at a time I might add).  My life was interesting and fulfilling.  I saw no need for another wife to be honest.  Meeting Lena was an impulsive adventure that eventually led to us falling in love.  I married Lena, not because I needed a wife, but because of my love of her and my inability to want my life to continue on without her in it.  Regardless of all the oddities of our pairing, we truly were made for each other.

My point in this thread, that some refuse to acknowledge, is that not everyone needs to be married and that some of us fell into love and eventual marriage in a more traditional manner.  You see I think it is unnatural the way most go through this process.  Making lists of women, meeting many at a time and then analytically choosing the best candidates and only eventually picking one "best suited" to be a wife.  When does love come into this process?  With my built in aversion to marriage, you can only imagine my thoughts of marrying a woman without love.

I happen to think love is a very unique and special emotion.  Many over use the term to describe infatuation or even a strong "like" for another person.  I fell in love with two different women at different times in my life.  I married them both.  By far, Lena is the great love of my life.  I didn't plan on it nor did I plot it out to happen.  It just happened naturally.

I have given a number of examples of men that happened upon women, fell in love and then married them without any hard plans to do so.  Such is life.  It is not all planned out to the smallest detail.

You see I think the whole MOB thing fosters the mind set that love is a secondary thing to consider.  They encourage men to meet women and plan out how to get them to marry.  They encourage men and women to make snap decisions and to throw caution to the wind.  Not to mention the one week wonders.  It just isn't natural.  I didn't talk of marriage first to the many AW I dated and my views on marriage did not come out until later in the relationships.  Just as I did with Lena too.
KenC

[HiTech]

My point in this thread, that some refuse to acknowledge, is that not everyone needs to be married and that some of us fell into love and eventual marriage in a more traditional manner.

Yep I know it is very traditional to email women from a web sight 1/2 way around the world. And then meet this women in a marriage agency in Russia. I am sure at least 50% of the marriages in the USA are this traditional.
And having your friend move around the world on a student visa , is completely the norm of dating standards.

Ken As much as you seem to want to believe you are different in your approach I think there is only one person who thinks your meeting is any different then most people on this forum. Specific tactics change a little but you played the exact same game as anyone here. Almost all on this forum would agree that love is needed for a marriage to work.

[KenC]

Ken, there's not many guys that would spend as much time to get to know their RW before marrying her more than I. I went to visit Natalia as a friend first and I made sure she was what I wanted and that she really wanted me before I proposed. But I'm not ashamed to admit that I went to the FSU to look for a wife. That was my ultimate goal there and love would have to happen before I propose anyway.

This is all very honorable of you Billy.  Taking your time to allow for love to develop is not the norm as I see it.  Kudos to you.

With the right person, marriage should be a wonderful thing.

It is and I whole heartily agree!

If I told sincere RW I swore I'd never marry again, they probably would stop communicating with me and move on to guys who know what must happen in this endeavor for two people to be together.

You swore you would never marry again in 98. You also found Lena in 98 but I'm sure you did not tell her this because deep down, you did not want to scare her away and you wanted to find a person you wanted to marry and you did.

This is where you are wrong Billy.  How can you debate with me what I felt and what my motivations were during this time?  I treated my budding relationship with Lena just as I did with the AW I dated.  Marriage was not a discussion in the beginning at all.  It wasn't a deception, it just wasn't relevant at that time.

Sincere men just don't go to the FSU to visit RW just to have a long term/long distance/part time relationship.

If you are insinuating that I was insincere, you have overstepped the bounds of decency and I resent it.  Who are you to pass judgement on me?  Just because my methods do not match your expectations, does not invalidate them.  Let me remind you, Billy, that eventually I did marry Lena and we have been happy together for almost 9 years!

Even when single guys say they go to the FSU just to sightsee or explore their heritage, I don't believe them that that is their ultimate objective. They go there in hopes someday they may have a woman by their side everyday and that will only happen through marriage in this endeavor.

 As I said before, Billy, it is your perogative not to believe me.  You need to open your mind up to the fact that not everyone thinks like you do.  Again, it is very silly of you to debate with me as to what my feelings and what my motivations were at the time.  Do you know me better than I do myself?
KenC

[KenC]

Yep I know it is very traditional to email women from a web sight 1/2 way around the world. And then meet this women in a marriage agency in Russia. I am sure at least 50% of the marriages in the USA are this traditional.
And having your friend move around the world on a student visa , is completely the norm of dating standards.

Ken As much as you seem to want to believe you are different in your approach I think there is only one person who thinks your meeting is any different then most people on this forum. Specific tactics change a little but you played the exact same game as anyone here. Almost all on this forum would agree that love is needed for a marriage to work.

Of course you are welcome to disagree (as you usually do with me.)  The differences may be subtle to you, but not so much to me.  I look at my method as being more traditional than most in this endeavor.  I met someone on the Net, a phone relationship developed and then I went to meet her in person.  (Up to this point it is exactly the same as I did with AW except the distance was a little futher)  There was no talk of marriage at anytime during this development of our relationship.  (A big difference to most here)  My marriage to Lena was due to the fact we fell in love as opposed to the thought of marrying leading to some version of love. (Another big difference to most here)
KenC

[HiTech]

Of course you are welcome to disagree (as you usually do with me.)  The differences may be subtle to you, but not so much to me.  I look at my method as being more traditional than most in this endeavor.  I met someone on the Net, a phone relationship developed and then I went to meet her in person.  (Up to this point it is exactly the same as I did with AW except the distance was a little futher)  There was no talk of marriage at anytime during this development of our relationship.  (A big difference to most here)  My marriage to Lena was due to the fact we fell in love as opposed to the thought of marrying leading to some version of love. (Another big difference to most here)
KenC

Ken when you say stuff like EXACTLY how you met your first wife. You met your first wife on the  net 30 years ago? You then emailed her , before talking to her on the phone? Or maybe you are telling the truth and I am just not taking your statement in the correct context?

HiTEch

[Jet]

Of course I understand the pains of divorce, but that in itself still I think shouldn't really make you hate ‘marriage’. It was just a wrong person.

Anastassia,
I RARELY disagree with you, but I feel compelled to respond to this little tidbit quoted above. I would like to respectfully suggest that for a man it can be far more than "just a wrong person". In my recent trip report, I mentioned in the opening line that I had left a long term relationship a year before meeting Liliya. What I didn't mention was that I had been living together with that woman for 10 years. We had bought a house together, cars together, shared joint bank accounts, but because of the havoc my prior marriage (which lasted all of 2 years) had wreaked upon my life, I was steadfastly against the prospect of EVER getting married again. That prior marriage was the biggest mistake of my entire life. I knew I was screwing up big time when I entered it, but the pressures from all sides were too great and I eventually "caved in" to what everyone else wanted (my family, her family, friends, etc.) Now, 18 years later with receipts from AFTER the divorce totaling just under a quarter of a million dollars, and 56+ court dates under my belt, I believe I can rightly say that for some, it is *WAY MORE* than just a wrong person, and the pains of divorce are a walk in the park compared to the ongoing nightmare of sharing custody with a mentally unstable Ex. (For those who are curious, that mental instability has since been Doctor certified  )

As wonderful as Liliya is, and as much as I love her, I had VERY grave concerns about getting married again (as did she, due to her past life experiences BTW)

[KenC]

Ken when you say stuff like EXACTLY how you met your first wife. You met your first wife on the  net 30 years ago? You then emailed her , before talking to her on the phone? Or maybe you are telling the truth and I am just not taking your statement in the correct context?

HiTEch

Hitech,
Not much action on the Net back in 69!  (When I met my first wife)
Sorry for the confusion.  I said:
(Up to this point it is exactly the same as I did with AW except the distance was a little futher)
I meant American women that I was dating in 98.  I actually met a number of American women outside my general area too.  A gal from PA, another from TN and some nice women in outstate Michigan.  So I was even familar with long distant relationships too.  Just not as long distance as Russia. BTW I didn't speak of marriage to any of them either!
KenC

[goforit]

Actually all the things you are describing in your TR and here seem the same as lots of men will do, but just for some reason you ‘name’ things differently. You had said you would have never married again, but you still did. Ok, love didn't develop at once, but developed later (which is hard to believe with Lena being just a doll), any way it doesn't really matter when. It is hard to say what develops when.

And it is hard to guess what exactly you mean by ‘romantic developments’. For example I was attracted to both of my husbands at the very beginning, and they to me. We liked each other and we did talk romantic things, but maybe just 20%, and the rest was just trying to understand each other and figure out who we were. We were not physical till the very marriage (that's the Christian rules you know  ), but it doesn't mean we were not romantically involved.

Also I was searching for a man to marry, not to have fun, play with and spend time with or just see what will happen. For me the most important and the very starting point was a man who wants to get married, who wants to find a wife, who is sure he would want to be married again and that is his only goal in this. I indicated that openly in my profile and was searching for the profiles with the same word ‘marriage’. Call it void, vacancy or any other word, it was that. I know how you always say a man should be happy first just by himself and then it is ok to invite somebody into his life. (maybe it was somebody else who said that?) But I will never ever understand that. And maybe it is more of a man’s thinking that a woman's although my husbands are exceptions then. I was fine with everything else other than being alone, I felt I wanted to find that man since my kindergarten years and I wanted to be married to the only man forever. I felt unhappy and miserable, years wasted and senseless. I see absolutely no happiness or reason in living by yourself without sharing your life and all the wonderful things that it brings with a man I love. The same way I think a husband and wife must have at least one child (except medical conditions of course), because again why live for themselves only when the logical culmination of true love should be having a child?

I feel really strange when a woman says: well, I will go there and I will have 90 days to check things out, him, life there. I personally would never be able to do that and would never do that. More over I just do not need that. What is there to check? I am not marrying a city or a house, I am marrying a person, and I am giving my vows to a person and God, nothing or nobody else. And I or we need to do this before I go anywhere, before I move. Now I feel like I am minority here. If a man needs more time to think about me, let it be, of course, I am not against this, but he will just have to travel a little more to where I live and decide for himself a little later. And even then my approximate time frame was 3-5 months. If there is no proposal after that then there will never be. I don't have time to loose and stretch it for years and tens of trips. Our communication is dense and happens often enough to understand me and make a decision. If a man doesn't see me and who I am, then he is either dumb or I am just too good for him. I need neither of those. I need a man who is like me, who will see the same values in me as his own, who will have no doubt at once that I am THE ONE, who will realize at once that he will never be able to find anyone better and who will genuinely cherish me to his last days. I need my man to be decisive and know exactly what he wants, the same way I do.

All I can say is "WOW!"

[DKMM]

I concur goforit.  Where to find more women like her?  Answer: Go East!

[KenC]

You know sometimes I think RWD is in some alternative universe where the normal rules of dating and relationships do not apply.  I find myself debating here with a couple of people about the "normalcy" of going to meet a woman without a prior offer of marriage.  People, it is only in the land of Mail Order Brides is it normal to put marriage ahead of establishing a relationship!  Go into any other venue and people would think it is nuts send out hundreds of blind letters to find a wife.  They would laugh at the idea of establishing the criteria for marriage before you ever met the woman.  Doesn't anyone else see that as clearly putting the proverbial horse before the cart?

If you met a woman under normal circumstances, no one would broach the subject of matrimony until well into the relationship. It probably would not even be a conversation until after a love developed.  Yet some here continue to debate that anyone can meet, court and marry a Russian woman under any other terms except those put forth by the MOB agencies!

I have always advocated that men "use" the marriage agencies as introduction agencies.  Use them to allow yourself access to the thousands of women advertising themselves on the Net.  If you are marriage minded,as most of them are, go meet them and see what develops.  But make sure you have the time and the money to establish a relationship first and formost.  Hopefully you will find love somewhere along the line too.  But then and only then, propose marriage.

Love and marriage is too important of an emotional commitment to be left to the fate of guessing after a few weeks together let alone a few days together.  It is not an automatic outcome from some silly plan devised to play a numbers game.  Make the relationship the number one priority, not getting married.  True love is not something you back in to as almost an after thought.  It is the ultimate goal as I see it.

I have participated in these forums now for a good many years.  I have seen guys totally buy into the agency hype.  It is almost as though the identity of the individual woman does not matter.  I am here to tell you, that the individual woman is all that matters!  How the two of you bond together and how much you love each other is what counts.  Not how she ranks on your list of criteria, or if she came from a large or small city, or that she is half your age plus 7.  Don't compromise and don't assume love will develop either.  I have seen too many marriages fail because of this faulty assumption.

The guys that I have seen succeed at this are the ones that didn't play the agency games.  They met a woman and fell in love and only then decided on marriage.  Can a guy find love with a fabricated plan to find a wife, I suppose so.  I guess time will tell for them.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

KenC, you wrote "I would never marry again unless it was perfect." Well, this speaks for itself. You were not against marriage itself if the woman was perfect for you and your actions, you being married right now, speak even louder than words.

The same goes to Jet. Thank you so much for sharing with us everything that came with ‘the wrong woman’. The loss of the possessions can be solved with the prenup next time, isn’t it right? Custody and mentally instable Ex is of course much bigger things. But at the end, right now, you are married, right? You are not dating or living together or in a common law marriage? You are legally married! Something must have changed in your thinking. I understand the phase of not wanting to marry. But I don’t think you guys lost faith in happy marriage itself, otherwise you wouldn’t be married right now.

At such moments like that I can’t even imagine how you dealt with this without God and faith in Him. I would have probably already ended up in some mental institution if not for Him.

KenC, why did you think that ‘perfection’ was unattainable? Jet, maybe you felt the same? Why do you think God blessed you again with a ‘perfect’ wife this time forever?

And another interesting question to both of you: If not for K1 visa requirement – to get legally married – would you still get legally married to your women? Or does the perfect world consist of only ‘vows’ and that’s all? For example, let’s imagine that both Lena and Lilya were already in the US and more over were already citizens of the US, but still those Russian Women with Russian hearts of gold. Would you just court them and start living together forever with out ever marrying, because you swore you would never ‘marry’ again?

Goforit, is that ‘Wow’ good or bad? ;-)

I honestly feel like we are arguing about red and pink apples while they are all apples. KenC, I totally understand the difference that you are trying to make, that’s fine and it is great. I am just trying to show you guys that maybe you didn’t loose faith in ‘marriage’ itself, God was always there and will be there from the beginning to the end, for both believers and unbelievers, if they see it or not... Maybe I am too optimistic, but this is how I see this picture. I am just so happy for you, because maybe you don’t know how and why you got where you are now, but that you realize how truly blessed you are.

KenC, as to whether it is normal or abnormal to put marriage ahead of the relationship, I don’t know, it depends really how you think and what you mean. You are saying that the whole world is doing it this way, it doesn’t mean it is right though because we know that the end is near and at the end chaos gets bigger and nastier, right becomes wrong and vice versa. Sleeping together to check sexual compatibility becomes normal vs. after marriage; marriage of convenience can be normal if two people are fine with that vs. based on commitment and love; letting all the Ukrainian Russian prostitutes into the US is normal and letting honest grandma to help with a newborn grandchild is abnormal...

I have always wanted to say that long distance relationship with all its weirdness and difficulty is just perfect for me. It is sent from heaven and can’t be better personally for me. What’s the best way to find out about the person’s heart other than talking and writing letters? Providing of course that person is honest (and that brings lots of other issues, of course I understand). Well, that’s why I was looking for a Christian man, with those values, who goes to church. Again there are different people in church too, but the odds are that I can meet a truly nice guy this way, and I did. KenC, you are saying that people will think it is nuts. Well, frankly, I don’t care that much about what other people say if they don’t fallow Christian rules. I mean I know where they are coming from and I start feel pity towards them, because they just don’t understand what I know and feel. I respect all of you ladies and gentlemen here on this board (other than that one crazy trailer guy  ), and this is just a board, it is ok to agree to disagree, I am fine with that. BUT when it comes down to finding my husband and spending the rest of my life with him, no matter how nice he might be, his values and beliefs should be the same as mine, otherwise it will never work. I have to be strict with both me and him in this. And THIS is normal for me. THIS is how it should be done for me.

I think in Russia, any woman who has a good sense of self-esteem and respect, great values (not even being Christian) and confidence might have the same way of thinking as I do, maybe not that extreme, but at least in this direction. Think about it. What kind of woman do you really want to spend the rest of your life with? What exactly should marriage be based on? Can these things change or not? Under what circumstances?

[Jazzyclassy]

     KenC, as to whether it is normal or abnormal to put marriage ahead of the relationship, I don’t know, it depends really how you think and what you mean. You are saying that the whole world is doing it this way, it doesn’t mean it is right though because we know that the end is near and at the end chaos gets bigger and nastier, right becomes wrong and vice versa. Sleeping together to check sexual compatibility becomes normal vs. after marriage; marriage of convenience can be normal if two people are fine with that vs. based on commitment and love; letting all the Ukrainian Russian prostitutes into the US is normal and letting honest grandma to help with a newborn grandchild is abnormal...

I have always wanted to say that long distance relationship with all its weirdness and difficulty is just perfect for me. It is sent from heaven and can’t be better personally for me. What’s the best way to find out about the person’s heart other than talking and writing letters? Providing of course that person is honest (and that brings lots of other issues, of course I understand). Well, that’s why I was looking for a Christian man, with those values, who goes to church. Again there are different people in church too, but the odds are that I can meet a truly nice guy this way, and I did. KenC, you are saying that people will think it is nuts. Well, frankly, I don’t care that much about what other people say if they don’t fallow Christian rules. I mean I know where they are coming from and I start feel pity towards them, because they just don’t understand what I know and feel. I respect all of you ladies and gentlemen here on this board (other than that one crazy trailer guy  ), and this is just a board, it is ok to agree to disagree, I am fine with that. BUT when it comes down to finding my husband and spending the rest of my life with him, no matter how nice he might be, his values and beliefs should be the same as mine, otherwise it will never work. I have to be strict with both me and him in this. And THIS is normal for me. THIS is how it should be done for me.
         

I support this point of view

[Gator]

Anastassia wrote,

BUT when it comes down to finding my husband and spending the rest of my life with him, no matter how nice he might be, his values and beliefs should be the same as mine, otherwise it will never work.

I also consider this as absolute (excepting that she may be a Democrat and I a Republican).    Seriously, this is a fundamental requirement or otherwise serious conflicts will emerge that probably can not be resolved.  Both the man and woman need to have moral compasses that point in the same direction, the same inner code.

I have always wanted to say that long distance relationship with all its weirdness and difficulty is just perfect for me....What’s the best way to find out about the person’s heart other than talking and writing letters?

Yes, the long talks over the phone foment open, stream of consciousness discussion.  Something else is important about long distance.  It creates a separation period.   For sure the meetings are delightful and preferred; however, in returning to America the separation gave me time to reflect.  Something not possible with a woman living nearby who you will probably see several times a week.  Marriage is very serious, and reflection is important, especially given the differences in culture, language and probably age.

[KenC]

KenC, why did you think that ‘perfection’ was unattainable? Jet, maybe you felt the same? Why do you think God blessed you again with a ‘perfect’ wife this time forever?

  I think that Lena and I deserve each other!  (Both good and bad)

And another interesting question to both of you: If not for K1 visa requirement – to get legally married – would you still get legally married to your women? Or does the perfect world consist of only ‘vows’ and that’s all? For example, let’s imagine that both Lena and Lilya were already in the US and more over were already citizens of the US, but still those Russian Women with Russian hearts of gold. Would you just court them and start living together forever with out ever marrying, because you swore you would never ‘marry’ again?

Lena did not come over on a K-1 visa, but on a student visa.  There was no 90 days to marry or pass for us and we had the luxury of taking as much time as we felt necessary.  To be honest, I don't know if I could even do a K-1.  I guess I could but it would take me a heck of a long time to pull that trigger, for sure.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

KenC, your case is full of so many exceptions!  You didn't really answer my question, or maybe you did. For Lena to STAY here she had to get legally married, right? No matter when, but at some point. I don't know student visa's rules, you have to renew that I am sure, and one cannot do that forever. Any way, my point is, that you married. I suppose in your statement there is 'if she was perfect'. But Jet's words sound more categorical. He was against marriage at any time in the future. Period. 

But what if there are no visas, no rules, she just lives in another city or something, Jet and KenC, would you have legally married then?

[KenC]

KenC, your case is full of so many exceptions!  You didn't really answer my question, or maybe you did. For Lena to STAY here she had to get legally married, right? No matter when, but at some point. I don't know student visa's rules, you have to renew that I am sure, and one cannot do that forever. Any way, my point is, that you married. I suppose in your statement there is 'if she was perfect'. But Jet's words sound more categorical. He was against marriage at any time in the future. Period. 

But what if there are no visas, no rules, she just lives in another city or something, Jet and KenC, would you have legally married then?

Anastassia,
Under a student visa, Lena was allowed to stay here as long as she fulfilled the visa's requirements, the main on being that she continued to attend school.  She could come and go as she pleased with multi passes to return home for visits.  So in essence, there was no requirement of marriage.  As I said up thread, I married Lena because I could not picture my life without her in it.
KenC

[pitbull]

KenC,

Did you pay for Lena's school while she was in the US on a student's visa?

[Erwin]

The guys that I have seen succeed at this are the ones that didn't play the agency games.  They met a woman and fell in love and only then decided on marriage.  KenC

WISDOM....

[Jet]

But Jet's words sound more categorical. He was against marriage at any time in the future. Period. 

But what if there are no visas, no rules, she just lives in another city or something, Jet and KenC, would you have legally married then?

To be totally honest, and this may harm my "net credibility", if there were another VIABLE option besides marriage, Liliya and I both would have opted for that instead. Whether we lived in the US or Russia, we would have had to get married to stay together, and the choice for her to come here was based more on opportunities for Kolya than probably any other single factor. To quote my wife "I want that we were together because each of us wants to be together, not because either of us feels we have to be together."

Lil and I also came into this marriage a little differently. Because of the factors surrounding my previous marriage, the romantic in me really did look at this as if it were a first wedding - it was the first wedding/marriage I decided (on my own terms) I wanted. It was a long psychological road getting to that point for me. Liliya's story was a bit different, she really was madly in love with her first husband, but being able to love someone and being able to live with them are sometimes very different things. She had her own reasons to approach a second marriage with extreme caution.

Don't get me wrong, we *ARE* happily married (and have the legally binding paperwork to show for it  ). I am very thankful to God for bringing this woman into my life and for giving both of us the courage to overcome of fears and gamble on marriage a second time. I am proud to call her my wife and Kolya my son (even if it's not biological). But neither Liliya nor I started corresponding, or for that matter planned our first trip with the idea that marriage was the ultimate goal. Neither of us had any list of prerequisites or qualification that the other was required to meet, before proceeding further. As the relationship progressed, it became more and more obvious that each other's good points outweighed their bad points by a wide margin, and that we could each accept the the other's bad points at face value, without having delusions of *fixing* them. I believe that marriage has made both of us better people over the past few years, and I have no regrets at all.

[KenC]

KenC,

Did you pay for Lena's school while she was in the US on a student's visa?

Yes, of course.
KenC

[goforit]

That's why it is actually so hard to understand exactly what person means by 'love'. Everybody has their own meaning and it varies from each person to another. Some say it is friendship plus sex, which of which is more also can vary. Some say true love can't be at first, it only comes with years and they might be right too. But for me personally true love has absolutely nothing with love itself, or liking. For me the main word is 'commitment' that will never ever change (other than in the case of adultery and death). What is affection, love, friendship and everything else without commitment? Just a good relationship that may eventually fall apart too. That glue that KenC was talking about is actually for me commitment and a promise to God and to your spouse. Feelings, infatuation and yes, even the feeling of love, can in time change, depending on what you are going through emotionally with your spouse. But if there is commitment to work it out no matter what - that's maturity, that's desire, that's TRUE LOVE, that's something sacrificial and not really about yourself but both of you and God.

I think much of the back and forth debate on this topic comes down to the very definition of love. If love is defined as an emoton, even a very strong one, then it seems absolutely right that one can only come to it through a long period of time. It is also equally true that should that emotion fade then one can only conclude that love has faded. If however love is defined as something more, even though it might include wonderful emotions and feelings, then a truly loving relationship can begin on a different basis and in less time than love defined as an emotion.

I believe love is a choice. I believe love is something we do. I believe love primarily is (love is patient, love is kind, bears all things, etc.) rather than emotion. Don't get me wrong, I think love can have all kind of wonderful emotions and feelings attached to it, but I also believe that love can exist quite solidly even when those feelings wax and wane over time and sometimes disappear altogether.

The most famous Christian verse of all time is John 3:16, "for God so loved the world that he gave....". Notice that is doesn't say, "for God so loved the world, that he had a warm fuzzy feeling about it, or a really strong emotional attachment to it." Nope, love is something we do. And I bet when God gave Christ to die that excruciating death on the cross, he didn't have a very warm feeling about the world at that moment. You don't have to be a Christian to see the principle involved.

I have always loved my family, but there have been times I haven't felt very good about them. But love is a choice, a commitment, that often involves feelings, sometimes very wonderful feelings, but nonetheless transcends all of that. Christians are commanded to love. You can't command an emotion.

I think it is perfectly fitting for someone, especially for someone who has never been married, to lay down criteria foremost important for them in choosing a potential spouse, and then out of a pool of men/women who match that basic criteria see if something blossoms and grows.

This isn't really unusual and has been the normal method for most of human history, only the parents or some relatives usually did the "search phase" attempting to narrow down the choice of spouse to someone whom they knew would complement and fit their son or daughter's basic disposition. Sure at times this was abused but generally speaking parents had the best interests of their children at heart, and in many societies, while the initial choice(s) was made by the parents, the ultimate decision was left for the two involved.

It is a great and wonderful thing to find a life partner while not actually looking, but it can be equally rewarding to be very self-conscious about the whole process. One can choose to love someone and have the feelings follow, or one can have the feelings first and then declare they are "in love." But the "romantic" version that is the norm today has not always been the norm and is really not all that traditional. And without a solid commitment that transcends all else, is may have a tough time lasting as well, as seems so evident in our modern society.

[goforit]

Kuna,
If I had used logic first, as you recommend, I would still be a swinging dick bachelor today.  Going to Russia to meet a woman just aint logical.  No way, no how.
KenC

LOL!

[goforit]

I was brutally honest with the AW I dated.  (Imagine that?)  I told them up front that I had no intentions of getting married again, but if they wanted to hang out and enjoy some time with me, fine.  I had no trouble finding candidates for this role.

Ken, I was the same way in my last days of dating American women. I was brutally honest, except that I told them up front I had no intentions of just hanging out. If that is what they wanted to do, fine, but it won't be with me, because I am in this for the long haul. If that turns out to be you, great. If not, life moves on. I had no trouble finding candidates for this role.