Big City Women!!!

[groovlstk]

My wife has many single friends living in Moscow who are open to relationships w/westerners. However, none of these girls will list themselves at a marriage agency. Free Russian dating sites? Yes! Marriage agencies? No! They're all single, have good careers and live alone; they would like to marry and have children, but they have fairly high standards and no need for a savior on a white horse. I'm guessing that this is the type of women that Chivo dates.

Every so often someone shows up here claiming that girls from smaller cities are more "open and friendly" than Moscow/Kiev/SPB girls. I can't help but speculate that these guys felt like rock stars in smaller cities whereas in Moscow it takes a lot more than an American accent to spark a girl's interest.

I've been to smaller cities in Ukraine, and yes I did feel like a rock star at times. It's a little intoxicating and during my first few trips I loved the feeling but eventually realized it's like walking around with a "kick me" sign on my ass. In Kiev, SPB, and Moscow I'm just another foreigner and no one could care less, which is the way I like it

[groovlstk]

In fact, I assert that a Moscow woman (and those like her in other cities) may not only be less expensive, she may substantially add to the family’s net worth over the years.

Spot in, at least in my experience. My wife and I are in the process of buying our first home, the income from her job + renting her apartment in Moscow allowed us to remain in the best neighborhood in our area (where we now rent) and maintain a comfortable lifestyle. 

[BC]

Just make sure she sells it before the bubble bursts. If the American sub-prime fiasco demonstrates anything, it is that an overinflated real estate market can collapse quite quickly.

I have to respond to a few other points, but my wife is calling. You will have to wait

Upon reflection and thinking about population trends in RU and a comment from jb along these lines in another thread, selling now high might well be the best thing to do.  Maybe in 10 or 15 years buy a city block with the proceeds.  Might want to keep the funds in rubles.. who knows what the new all time low for the dollar will be..

[Fashionista]

The size of city where a woman lives is not important. What important is the size of the city where her parents grew up. Just think about it for a moment.

[Enot]

Upon reflection and thinking about population trends in RU and a comment from jb along these lines in another thread, selling now high might well be the best thing to do.  Maybe in 10 or 15 years buy a city block with the proceeds.  Might want to keep the funds in rubles.. who knows what the new all time low for the dollar will be..

Actually you would be better off getting your money in US Dollars then Rubles.  When I first visited Russia in May 2006, I got about 25 Rubles to the dollar.  The Dollar has droped a lot since then and you now get about 24 Rubles per dollar.

[Gator]

A temporary break from Big City Women.

Rubles or dollars?

My first visit it was $1.5 = 1 ruble!!!!  Communist days and one could do much better on the streets if one did not fear authority.

2002 30 rubles per dollar.

Today 24 per dollar.

Tomorrow?   With a continuing war to finance, a credit crunch, plus a need to float more dollars to stave off a serious recession - sounds like inflation.  Then we have a recession looming.  At best, a period of stagflation.  If the world enters a recession, the price of oil will drop, lowering the ruble.  

I hate to say it, and never dreamed it, but the demand for the money of the fiscal responsible and highly taxed damn Europeans is explainable.

Maybe I should consult with my Big City Woman!

[oldernotwiser]

I got about 25 Rubles to the dollar.  The Dollar has droped a lot since then and you now get about 24 Rubles per dollar.

Think about it, I believe that was BC's point

The size of city where a woman lives is not important. What important is the size of the city where her parents grew up. Just think about it for a moment.

I may be a little slow on this one, so could you elaborate please.

[Gator]

As another example of a Moscow woman is our own endearing Lily.

I have talked to her.  The last thing on her mind is to depend on her future husband for financial support.  She wants to make her own money and not need his.

[Enot]

Think about it, I believe that was BC's point

This is what BC said:

"selling now high might well be the best thing to do.  Maybe in 10 or 15 years buy a city block with the proceeds.  Might want to keep the funds in rubles.. who knows what the new all time low for the dollar will be.."

He wants to keep his money in Rubles ... bad choice because the Ruble has gone down against the Dollar.

[Gator]

Oldernotwiser

The size of city where a woman lives is not important. What important is the size of the city where her parents grew up. Just think about it for a moment.

I may be a little slow on this one, so could you elaborate please.

I suppose she means that many, many women have moved to Moscow and yet grew up in small cities where they were imprinted with their parents' values.  So such a woman gives you the best of both worlds???  Maybe such a woman is more flexible about where she lives.  I do not know what she is implying about women born and raised in the big cities.

I think it best not to judge a woman based on where she is from.  Instead keep an open mind, meet her, and get to know more about her if she is indeed interested in you.

[oldernotwiser]

Enot

I was just going by what you said, I have not been watching the ruble that closely.  If you  get fewer back now than you did in the past.  Seems to me the dollar is losing value faster than the ruble.  Then keeping money in Rubles makes cents.

Gator seems to think a recession will be bad for the ruble.  Who knows, I would probably not keep my money in cash that long anyway.  I have no crystal ball.

[BC]

He wants to keep his money in Rubles ... bad choice because the Ruble has gone down against the Dollar.

Oh boy.. I think we should move these economic posts out of this thread to a new one.. I think there is a lot to learn.

My last OT 'clutter' here for those interested:

http://www.timothypost.com/2008/01/29/smart-move-russia-will-revalue-the-ruble/

[Turboguy]

As another example of a Moscow woman is our own endearing Lily.

If I remember correctly Lily was born and grew up in Samara and moved to Moscow.  I have a feeling she acquired her sophistication and wonderful qualites before she became a Moscvichka. 

[Turboguy]

One sign of sophistication is being able to discuss a subject without direct and repeated ridicule that may just be unfounded.

Reading this I thought about Jazzy.   Isn't Jazzy a Moscow woman?

[I/O]

Good thread highlighting the ineptness of many involved in this caper. You need to decide on a big city Lass or a smaller city Lass? Why? So you can reduce your chances of failure? Desperate grabbing at straws IMO. Haven't you got what it takes to figure out if she is sophisticated, a stayer or whatever regardless of where she comes from? If the answer is that you haven't got what it takes to figure that out, .............well Groov said some time ago, socially inept men ask certain questions and socially inept men answer them.

Mrs Ash: I note you said "will find" and not "all women". I couldn't agree more. City of 10-13 million, whatever it is, WILL have many advanced people and the provincial cities will have some advanced people.

My wife is from a moderate sized city, 1.2 - 1.5 million, this last weekend was an example, Friday she charmed the sox off the local "Silver tails" at one of the theatres here, Saturday, we did the jeans and popcorn thing at the cinema, Sunday she was on the end of a paint brush helping me repaint the front fence whilst a few of the neighbours were slinging (well meaning) jokes. I asked the question, "When you first visited me here did you ever imagine you would spend time on the end of a paint brush"? Her answer....."And what..?!!! My nails will file and paint again later".

I/O

[Misha]

I know a RW who was a medical doctor in Moscow, came to America and got work as a nurse and is advancing herself through the many obstacles to becoming certified to practice medicine.

These are examples of the ability of educated RW, not just those from Moscow, to earn income.  Please forgive me for neglecting to mention others. 

While a Moscow woman may have high expectations, she may become a net cash positive. 

So if a Moscow woman, or an educated woman in another city, seems disinterested in you, please do not label it as arrogance or insincerity.

Immigration is never easy, and in my experience it seems even more difficult for Russians than immigrants from other countries IMHO.

There are a number of factors that come into play:

1. Russians (for the most part) are very conscious of social status. You are ranked based on what you do, what your husband does, where you live, where you travel, etc. There is quite often a continual jockeying for status between Russians and Russian-speakers as they will try to elevate their status. Playing the Moscow card is simply one of many ways in which status is affirmed. If a woman (or a man) has a high social status in Russia, it is difficult for them to move to another country and find themselves reduced in status.

To compensate, it is necessary to find ways of uplifting your status. This is done in a multitude of ways, and quite often in the first year in affirming how much better life is in Russia: I lived in a "real" city and I cannot live in your "village." That "village" can be Miami, but the effect is the same: reestablish your status in your new country. Likewise, Russian immigrants in their new countries will compare their lives in the past with other Russian wives to demonstrate how much better they were there and as a consequence how much higher status they still are as compared to others. We have one friend from Minsk, sometimes to hear her speak you would think that the streets of Minsk were paved with gold and the apartment in which she lived approximated the Taj Mahal LOL.

2. Connections in Russia are paramount and as a consequence there are two type of successful Russians. The first type are those Russians that succeeded because of their intelligence, because of their talent or because of their extreme hard work. Then, there are those who succeeded because of family connections or because their fathers or mothers paid the necessary bribes and made the right contacts. My advice: find a woman who falls in the first category and not the second. If you insist on finding a woman in the second category, then expect her to expect you to find her jobs and build  her career on your connections. Otherwise, you will be told how life was wonderful back home in Russia and it will likely be very difficult for her to integrate into her new home.

3. Some careers are much harder to break into in North America. A woman who was a doctor in Russia will face a challenging time becoming a doctor in Canada. It is possible, but it will be very difficult and it will take years. This of course will cause a lot of frustration.

Finally, with regards to the statement "So if a Moscow woman, or an educated woman in another city, seems disinterested in you, please do not label it as arrogance or insincerity." The simple fact of the matter is that some people are extremely arrogant and it has nothing to do with whether I am interested in them or not.

 

[Bruce]

Best not to comment, but there are good girls everywhere.   It is amazing how every "black" from the FSU claims they were from Moscow - until they really meet somebody from Russia.   I always say, I guess on their way to the USA their plane was in Moscow for an hour or two.  Therefore, they claim they are from Moscow. 

[Enot]

 I always say, I guess on their way to the USA their plane was in Moscow for an hour or two.  Therefore, they claim they are from Moscow. 

LOL! - I guess I can say I'm from Moscow too!

[Jet]

In fact, I assert that a Moscow woman (and those like her in other cities) may not only be less expensive, she may substantially add to the family’s net worth over the years.
These are examples of the ability of educated RW, not just those from Moscow, to earn income.  Please forgive me for neglecting to mention others. 

While a Moscow woman may have high expectations, she may become a net cash positive.  Especially if her man can be a mentor (and has some cash to take her through a period of adjustment)..

And this ignores the significant financial assets of Moscow women (some men may say “What?”).  It’s their apartments and the inflated prices for Moscow real estate.  My lady’s cozy and humble apartment, outside the metro limits, is worth $200k, and no mortgage.  How many men thinking about marrying a RW have a net worth of $200k?

So if a Moscow woman, or an educated woman in another city, seems disinterested in you, please do not label it as arrogance or insincerity.

Gator,
With all due respect, you seem to be feverishly backpedaling with this post. First you seemed to assert that these special qualities were representative of women from Moscow, and now you seem to be changing your tune. The women you are describing may in fact reside in large numbers within the Golden Ring, but I would like to suggest that it may be more accurate to leave Moscow out of the equation altogether.

There is a TYPE of woman who is highly driven and highly motivated to succeed on her own terms. This type of woman is not limited by her current or former geographical residence. They are not confined to Moscow or even Russia for that matter. My wife IS this type of woman. She has not only managed to work herself back up to her former professional status but has far surpassed it. She is FULLY self sufficient financially speaking, and seems to have achived this status in record time. She has real estate assets "back home" which while greater in number of properties, are valued similarly to that Moscow apartment you mentioned. Her culture and sophistication are evident upon first meeting, as a few members here can attest. More importantly, she is not alone, Start2's wife, and GreginGa's wife are but two other examples that immediately pop into my mind. She is also acutely aware that no matter how successful she is professionally, how sophisticated she is personally, or how well regarded she is socially, there will always be Moscuvichkas that will look down their noses at her because she is not one of them, but rather, a village child born to "redneck" parents on the outskirts of the 3rd largest city of Russia. It won't matter to them that she has enchanted American aristocracy on Palm Beach and Long Island, or that she has better seats at the Miami Ballet. No, what's really important is that she's *NOT* from Moscow. 

...and that's the arrogance and insincerity I've personally observed.

[WmGO]

First I must say that gabaub's thinking that Gator presents as arrogant
is incorrect. I have always gleaned the opposite.

Second, I think Gator makes some valid points in his opening post that certainly
would apply to *some* Moscow, St. Pete, Kiev women...

But I agree with the following comments of gabaub:

The fact of the matter is that Moscow is a big city and yes there will be some women in Moscow who go to the theater and the ballet and will read the best and the latest literature. Some will be connoisseurs of fine dining and will revel in the finer things in life. However, this will be a small minority.

This is what I would say would be the life of a typical woman in Moscow:

Get up at 5 or 6 to get ready for work (earlier if you don't live in Moscow and have to take the elektrichka (commuter train linking Moscow and the Moscow oblast. Spend at least an hour (much more if you have to to take a commuter train). Go to work and then come back home. After another hour on the train, you come back exhausted and have to prepare your supper. On your way back home, stop at the local kiosk, store or market to buy some potatoes or if you have some extra money pelmeni. Go back home where you will either prepare something to eat and then you will crash in front of the television. Go to be and repeat until the weekend. On the weekend, forget the ballet and the opera, you are simply too exhausted and there is much work to be done: washing clothes, ironing, cleaning. The last thing you want to do is to spend another hour going downtown. If you are young, you might hit the local diskoteka, otherwise you will likely spend a fine weekend watching dubbed American movies in front of the television.

I would argue that the life of the average Russian woman in Moscow is not that much different than that of any other woman in Russia. The city may be bigger and the metro ride may be longer, but the daily existence won't be that different. Only a small fraction of the women in Moscow will have the time, the energy or the money to partake in any higher culture that Moscow might have to offer.

I admittedly have not read this entire thread or the other one that begat it, but
want to just a few comments.

It is important to understand what R/U people mean when they use the word
"village". In my experience, R and U use the term inconsistently and often incorrectly.
When they use it incorrectly, sometimes it is due to ignorance, and sometimes it
is due to arrogance.

I have met people in Moscow that claimed that anything less than 1 Million population
was a village. Now, this is obviously absurd, and really the product of arrogance.
However, I also found that most FSU people (west of Urals Russia and Ukraine) seem
to agree that less than 250,000 is a village. Technically, both are wrong, as a "village"
is only properly defined as a small rural community typically a farming community. At most, what we in America would call a small town.

If you look at the Soviet classifications, they actually break down the sizes and types
of villages, towns, small cities, big etc. in minute detail. BUT, Russians and Ukrainians who, ironically virtually all hail from the peasant agricultural regions before being herded
into newly created urban areas as a result of Stalinization just a few generations ago, seem to only use two terms: "city" by which they mean really really BIG, and "village" which means everything else. For being such notorius technocrats, it is really kind of
humorous to see/hear such gross distortion.

Gator commented about his fiancee's friend's comments (if I recall correctly). Actually,
FSUW DON"T really know much about American cities, and the lady's comments and
attitudes reflect this. Even most small American cities have all of the entertainments and museums AND CULTURE that were mentioned, and certainly medium cities do, typically duplicated many times over. I really don't think the vast majority of
FSUW know this. IMO, *their*  opinions and attitudes are really a combination of ignorance and arrogance { an analysis of the arrogant part can get really deep into
the post Stalinization psyche of Russians and Russianess so I am just going to skip it as it doesn't really matter anyways. But I must say that a major aspect of this mentality as applied to American cities is more a product of the FSUW's mental assumptions and preexistant prejudices than known or actual realities}.



NONETHELESS, Gator's points are valid for SOME, IMO smaller, portion of FSUW in
Moscow, St. Pete, Kiev, but IMO not the vast majority of FSUW. In point of fact,
I remain amazed at how few university educated women ever visit museums, concerts theater, etc. and how few have actually read Pushkin, Lermontov, Tolstoy etc. (much less Dostoevsky ).   

Personally, the whole matter/debate may be mostly overblown as it relates to Moscow/
St. Pete/Kiev vs. cities of 250,000 to 1,000,000.......but that is something that ultimately may not be exactly knowable.....much time spent with a particular FSUW
will reveal her attitudes, mentalities, preferences, etc. at least hopefully unless she
is some kind of award winning actress {and there are quite a few out theretoo}.

WmGO

[WmGO]

There are a number of factors that come into play:

1. Russians (for the most part) are very conscious of social status. You are ranked based on what you do, what your husband does, where you live, where you travel, etc. There is quite often a continual jockeying for status between Russians and Russian-speakers as they will try to elevate their status. Playing the Moscow card is simply one of many ways in which status is affirmed. If a woman (or a man) has a high social status in Russia, it is difficult for them to move to another country and find themselves reduced in status.

To compensate, it is necessary to find ways of uplifting your status. This is done in a multitude of ways, and quite often in the first year in affirming how much better life is in Russia: I lived in a "real" city and I cannot live in your "village." That "village" can be Miami, but the effect is the same: reestablish your status in your new country. Likewise, Russian immigrants in their new countries will compare their lives in the past with other Russian wives to demonstrate how much better they were there and as a consequence how much higher status they still are as compared to others. We have one friend from Minsk, sometimes to hear her speak you would think that the streets of Minsk were paved with gold and the apartment in which she lived approximated the Taj Mahal LOL.

2. Connections in Russia are paramount and as a consequence there are two type of successful Russians. The first type are those Russians that succeeded because of their intelligence, because of their talent or because of their extreme hard work. Then, there are those who succeeded because of family connections or because their fathers or mothers paid the necessary bribes and made the right contacts. My advice: find a woman who falls in the first category and not the second. If you insist on finding a woman in the second category, then expect her to expect you to find her jobs and build  her career on your connections. Otherwise, you will be told how life was wonderful back home in Russia and it will likely be very difficult for her to integrate into her new home.
 

The above is a very accurate summary of Russian thinking/mentality/psyche as applied
to the subject at hand IMO. I hinted at this mentality a little bit in my above post.

[WmGO]

She is also acutely aware that no matter how successful she is professionally, how sophisticated she is personally, or how well regarded she is socially, there will always be Moscuvichkas that will look down their noses at her because she is not one of them, but rather, a village child born to "redneck" parents on the outskirts of the 3rd largest city of Russia. It won't matter to them that she has enchanted American aristocracy on Palm Beach and Long Island, or that she has better seats at the Miami Ballet. No, what's really important is that she's *NOT* from Moscow. 

...and that's the arrogance and insincerity I've personally observed.

All pravda, and really not uncommon for any country's main population center(s) and
their attitudes towards the rest of their countrymen - NYC and Boston for example
or Paris.....

[WmGO]

 

Ruble investment??? Loser all the way.Currency investment in general
is a bad bet unless someone is betting large sums and studies and monitors
the subject daily. If you want to try it, diversify. The Merk hard currency
fund (basket of currencies) is worth a try.

However, I would say that with a $9 Trillion national debt, and annual $400 to $500 billion added to the principle each year, and a $750 billion annnual trade deficit, and the FED rolling the presses to prevent recession (and possible
stagflation) it would be a no brainer to be short on the dollar...........

Personally, I would rather invest in commodities and precious metals for sure
growth against a declining dollar.

[BillyB]

Regarding statistics, I've said it once and I'll repeat till I'm blue in the face.. THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS AT ONCE YOU GET DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL!!! You are better off relying on chaos theories when seardching for a mate than rely on statistics.

example:  You are attracted to blondes.  Even this simple 'cut' destroys any statistical value that doesn't specifically include the color of hair.  Add 'beautiful' and the results are even more sk(r)ewed. 

I really hope you guys attempting to use statistics eventually get this point: THEY DO NOT APPLY TO YOU!.

BC, I know you're anti-statistics but they are valuable. It was used effectively to show Eduard the true male/female population in Russia although he could tell his clients those statistics won't apply to them.

Governments, Universities, and businesses spend billions on finding out what the average person wants, how the average person behaves, and how the products and medicine will affect the average person. They will continue to spend money on studies because there is educational value to be had.

If everything is based on an individual level, then we don't need this thread or most other threads such as age differences. But it's important that people do understand with wider the age gaps, the more likely they are going to fail in their marriage. Without statistics or a decent collection of first hand knowledge, one can just assume he has as good a chance staying married to a woman 40 years younger and a woman 5 years younger. It isn't. Studies based on a group of people's actual experiences have proved it not to be true.

I talked to a 72 yo Russian man in Tashkent last week. He's been married 50 years. He's also lived in Russia for 25 years. He told me the RW and Uzbek women in Uzbekistan are better women and more marriage material than women in Russia. I told him I felt the same way. I've been to Moscow, St. Petersburg and Novosibirsk and I felt the women there are more into partying and materialistic things. My individual experience and his lifelong experience is one thing but Russia's 69% vs. Uzbekistan's 13% divorce rate speaks volumes to men who are looking for a partner that values marriage. You have more chance to find what you're looking for in Uzbekistan than Russia. Unfortunately we don't have statistics on whether or not the average big city girl is better than the average small town girl so we debate.

[I/O]

Russia's 69% vs. Uzbekistan's 13% divorce rate speaks volumes to men who are looking for a partner that values marriage. You have more chance to find what you're looking for in Uzbekistan than Russia.

Uzbekistan population approximately 28 000 000 people. 100% - 13% = 87% who are inferred by this as inclind to stay married, 87% X 28 000 000 = 24 500 000 / 2 (male and female) = maybe 12 250 000 women who fit the desired category.

Russia population approximately 145 000 000. 100% - 69% = 31% who are inferred by this as inclind to say married, 31% X 145 000 000 = 45 000 000 / 2 (Male and female) = maybe 22 500 000 women who who fit the desired category.

If you want to play the odds game, I'll take Russia at 2-1 "On".

I/O