Big City Women!!!

[Gator]

From another thread:

Turbo wrote,

The idea of going to a more out of the way place is not looking for desperate girls, it is looking for sincere girls who really want a good man in their life.   I think they were in Moscow and Odessa a decade ago.   I think they are rare there at this stage of the game.

 

Chivo replied,

This just isn't true. I meet/have met hundreds of nice sincere girls in Moscow who would make wonderful wives and are looking exactly for a good man.

Now they might not want to leave Moscow for Wildhair, Pa., but that doesn't make them insincere.

I wrote the following and did not post it. 

Chivo, did you know that Turbo is from Beaver Falls, PA or is this a coincidence?  Turbo has many endearing qualities, yet sophisticated tastes is not one of them (and to many that would be endearing).  Most Big City women have sophisticated tastes.  PERIOD

Why did I not post it?  It is because the issue to me is very complex and people are too judgmental.  I have examined this issue closely from knowing a Moscow woman for six years and expecting to marry her this summer.   And I knew women from smaller cities in Russia and Ukraine.

So I start a new thread and hopefully leave the scab picking in that other thread.

Most Cities are "Big Villages"

My fiancee was in America three years ago.  She liked my city of Tampa, Florida, but when we visited her Belarussian friend living in Milwaukee, she thought it was a big village.  Likewise, she thought Sydney, Australia a village albeit a big village.  And Dallas was just boring.  San Francisco, New York and DC were "great."

Most Cities are "Big Villages" - Why?

At first, I did not understand her conclusions.  Then I realized it was about what she did and saw in each city.  The common element was that in the cities she did not like her hosts were decent genuine people, but not into museums, exotic restaurants (not necessarily expensive - can you say Thai and Vietnamese and Indian), active excursions, live music, art, etc.  She received thunderous applause for riding the mechanical bull at a Dallas club for an incredibly long time (to throw her, the operator sped the bull faster than for most men riders), yet had no interest in repeating the Cowboy scene. 

Odds Against Match

While there may be many Moscow women who would love the mechanical bull (after all, it is good warmup for a ride later that night  ), to most I guess it is not there cup of tea.  So if a man with "apple pie tastes" and who lives with the squirrels meets a Moscow woman, the odds are stacked that she will not identify with his life.  That does not make her insincere as alluded to in the other thread.  Repeat, that does not make her insincere.

RW Know about American Life

RW are not living in a vacuum.  Essentially all know of the experiences of some friend-of-a-friend married to some American.  Few RW wish to spend most of their day looking at squirrels in the back yard.

Need More than a Good Man

We all read about Decembrists' wives and how they followed their imprisoned men to remote Siberia.  The key - they were in love.   A RW not in love and just meeting a new man will project herself to his location along with other factors.  They want more than a good-hearted man, just like we want more than a good-hearted woman.  No one wants to be bored.   This mindset is becoming more and more predominant as the sense of desperation declines.

I remember a fantastic woman who really interested me.  I tried my best to woo her, but failed because I could not break through the barrier that she loves snow.  Maybe her real reason was "me." 

JB in Texas

Our beloved JB is married to a Moscow woman.  She is highly educated.  JB lives in Corpus Christi, Texas.  Conflict?  No!  The two have been happily married for over 5 years.  JB worked in Russia and had the time to cement their relationship in love before she arrived.  I assume some of their continued success is attributable to the fact that she is employed doing something she really enjoys, teaching at a nearby university.

Arrogance

Maybe there is some air of arrogance with Moscow women.  I find that hard to accept considering that they will piss in public without hesitation or complaint.   Nevertheless, Simoni told me about an encounter his woman had this week with an arrogant Moscow woman here in Florida. 

Then again Gaubaub says I can be arrogant, so maybe all of us who like Moscow women are just arrogant.  Maybe I'm arrogant because a Moscow woman makes you feel like you are on top of the world.

Conclusion

To conclude this long story, if a man is somewhat knowledgable in the ways of the world, he should meet an educated Moscow woman if for nothing more than the experience.  If she pisses in public, you may have a winner.

[Misha]

Then again Gaubaub says I can be arrogant, so maybe all of us who like Moscow women are just arrogant.  Maybe I'm arrogant because a Moscow woman makes you feel like you are on top of the world.

No, I would say that the arrogance I sense can be analyzes as follows:

Gator says Moscow women are more sophisticated;
Gator states with pride that he is dating a woman from Moscow;
Therefore Gator must be more sophisticated.

The fact of the matter is that Moscow is a big city and yes there will be some women in Moscow who go to the theater and the ballet and will read the best and the latest literature. Some will be connoisseurs of fine dining and will revel in the finer things in life. However, this will be a small minority.

This is what I would say would be the life of a typical woman in Moscow:

Get up at 5 or 6 to get ready for work (earlier if you don't live in Moscow and have to take the elektrichka (commuter train linking Moscow and the Moscow oblast. Spend at least an hour (much more if you have to to take a commuter train). Go to work and then come back home. After another hour on the train, you come back exhausted and have to prepare your supper. On your way back home, stop at the local kiosk, store or market to buy some potatoes or if you have some extra money pelmeni. Go back home where you will either prepare something to eat and then you will crash in front of the television. Go to be and repeat until the weekend. On the weekend, forget the ballet and the opera, you are simply too exhausted and there is much work to be done: washing clothes, ironing, cleaning. The last thing you want to do is to spend another hour going downtown. If you are young, you might hit the local diskoteka, otherwise you will likely spend a fine weekend watching dubbed American movies in front of the television.

I would argue that the life of the average Russian woman in Moscow is not that much different than that of any other woman in Russia. The city may be bigger and the metro ride may be longer, but the daily existence won't be that different. Only a small fraction of the women in Moscow will have the time, the energy or the money to partake in any higher culture that Moscow might have to offer.

[Gator]

Gaubaub wrote,

I would argue that the life of the average Russian woman in Moscow is not that much different than that of any other woman in Russia.

So, it seems that you would agree that most Moscow women can be just as sincere as a woman from the provinces.  True?

BTW, would you read that other thread please.  I tried to conclude the arrogance and sophistication and ancestors remarks there. 

Fine dining, theater and ballet are not prerequisites for sophistication.  Fine dining is too expensive in Moscow, but Uzbeki restaurants in the suburbs where Uzbeki eat can be fun and delicious.  Theater is in Russian, so forget it.  Ballet is fabulous, twice per year.  One sign of sophistication is being able to discuss a subject without direct and repeated ridicule that may just be unfounded.

[Misha]

So, it seems that you would agree that most Moscow women can be just as sincere as a woman from the provinces.  True?

Yes I concur that a woman from Moscow can be just as sincere as a woman from elsewhere in Russia, but what annoys me to no end is the arrogance and the condescending nature of too many Muscovites that I have met in the past.

[Simoni]

Maybe I'm arrogant because a Moscow woman makes you feel like you are on top of the world.

That feeling is not unique to having a Moscow woman.  My lady is from Ukraine, and I feel like I am on the top of the word.

But hey Gator-- I am at sea level and your altitude there at your place must be at least 30 feet above sea level.  So guess you win this discussion :-)  LOL

[Enot]

I always thought we were looking for a woman that was NOT like most women of our country ... non-westernized.  Moscow in particlar is the most westernized city in Russia, therefore the women will be more like the women of our country.

As I said in the previous thread, think ODDS!  Of course their are sincere women in Moscow but the ODDS are better of finding a sincere girl in the smaller cities of Russia.  Don't we want the best odds when searching for a bride?

THINK ODDS!

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

but what annoys me to no end is the arrogance and the condescending nature of too many Muscovites that I have met in the past.

Judging how this is still under your skin, one sure did a number on you!!!  You should describe it here.  Did this arrogance come out of the blue?  If she were that small minded, why let it bother you. Why not laugh at her ignorance and feel empathy for her narrow views knowing that her life will not be as enriched as it could have been.  Helps you forget.  

[Misha]

Gaubaub,
Judging how this is still under your skin, one sure did a number on you!!!  You should describe it here.  Did this arrogance come out of the blue?  If she were that small minded, why let it bother you. Why not laugh at her ignorance and feel empathy for her narrow views knowing that her life will not be as enriched as it could have been.  Helps you forget. 

It is called an ex-wife LOL. Trust me, they certainly do a number on you 

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

Ex-wife!!!!!  Now that's a story.  There is much more to you than you wish to disclose.  But it is good that you did not turn your back to RW. 

You reentered the scene with a better idea of what would work for you. 

Was your ex-wife one of those who feels entitled that every man should cater to her?  And when he doesn't, watch out.  That is the exact woman who gets under my skin the most. 

[Gator]

Enot wrote,

Of course their are sincere women in Moscow but the ODDS are better of finding a sincere girl in the smaller cities of Russia.

Sincere about what?  When I hear the word insincere, I infer dishonesty. 

I recall a few years ago studying the blacklists of scammers.  A disproportionate number were from Moscow, very few in fact.

Maybe you have dated women from both spheres and you found small-city women more to your liking.  It is good that you know what you like.   You are you.  I met and liked women from Volgograd, Kharkov, Chelyabinsk, Arkhangelsk, Dnepro, Novosibirsk (correction, not her), etc.  Good, sincere women.  I happen to know very well a woman from Moscow.  Good sincere woman as are her Moscow friends.  I can say the same about a woman from Kiev. 

There are many good women. Don't shy away if they are from Moscow, and if you are a Big City man, don't ignore the smaller cities. 

[Gator]

Simoni,

I am beginning to question the spatial capacity of book authors.  From your condo, you look down on me (hopefully just with regard to one parameter).  It still is not close if I am on the widow's walk shooting rockets.

[AnastassiaAsh]

This is a great thread Gator, thank you for starting it.

Well, you know i am a Muscovite, big city girl. Hit me with questions now.

There are different ladies in small towns and in big cities and in villages or just medium size towns. We know you can face a scammer pretty much anywhere. There are pluses and minuses for big and small cities. Everybody chooses for themselves.

There is no doubt you will find women in Moscow who are more sophisticated, educated, with internet, computer and English knowledge, BUT (and for some it is 'but' and for some it is 'and') she will not want to move to a little town God knows where and she will always know value of herself and she will probably want to find the same guy who lives in a big city, successful and determined, with good job and a place to live in, men with pink carpets in trailers and 25K a year need not apply...

Women living in small towns, who do not have or cannot afford all these things mentioned above, are less peaky and can agree for a man 30 years older and they would not care that much about his 'stable' position.

Those who have a lot to offer have a right to ask for the same in their men. Not less. Those men who are confident and are on a successful road even after the divorce and who live in a big city, I would advise to look among the women from big cities.

Unfortunately, there are more men in this endeavor who want to find a simple nice woman from a small town mostly because the whole thing will be cheaper for them, they will be Gods for their women, whatever they have here will be like a palace/treasure for their women. Their ugliness will be just 'a little better than a monkey joke' for their women and they will be fine with that. Everybody gets what they deserve. Both men and women.

Those men who are afraid to date Muscovites for this or that reason, first of all are afraid of the 'price' that she will come with. Well, yes, dear men, education, good level of English, a job and a car and a flat...all of this comes with a price, and it SHOULD! If you think you are not up to this, yes, thank you for not looking there.

Those who think they are up for it, will get at the end their perfect match. And it doesn't mean she will be a heartless, senseless, calculative golddigger. Quite the opposite. Most likely than not this will be a woman who is comfortable where she is except having a beloved man. Finding a man will be her only goal and reason to move to another country following him. Otherwise why? And you will be surprised at the end how much even financially she will be able, and will actually want to, to participate herself in all of this, and you both will just be two equal grownup people building their future, investing in it more or less equally. I am sure there are such women in other places too, but the chance is that there are many more such women in big cities.

Just please don't try to get 'the best' for 'the cheapest'. This is not good. This is not fair. The line of least resistence is not always good you know.

I think i am actually addressing more to 2960 other members who never post but just read, so read this and think about it again.  We are not fools and dummies. 

[Enot]

Sincere about what?  When I hear the word insincere, I infer dishonesty. 

You're not listening.  Go back and read the other thread you broke off from.  It started with sincerity.

I'm speaking about odds, I'm not saying there are only insincere women in Moscow!

I don't think it arogance Gaubaub ... I think it's stubborness and not listening to other peoples opinions.

[Admin]

You're not listening.  Go back and read the other thread you broke off from.  It started with sincerity.

I'm speaking about odds, I'm not saying there are only insincere women in Moscow!

I don't think it arogance Gaubaub ... I think it's stubborness and not listening to other peoples opinions.

Actually, I find Gator to be among the most flexible with interpretation.

In terms of the topic at hand - I think there may be a simple misunderstanding.

For these purposes, we will again return to the subject of statistics. No, not the previous subject - just this:

* In terms of "ODDS" - which Enot promotes - you may (or may not) be correct. It presupposes that women from smaller cities (defined as NOT Moscow or St. Petersburg - in Russia) will be more motivated to accept a foreign suitor. There seems to be a lot of guys who accept that as conventional wisdom - so let's run with it. If we accept that as accurate, then a city of 1 or 2 million may have a greater percentage of women who would be willing to consider a WM as a husband.

* In terms of ABSOLUTE NUMBERS, however, when considering Moscow (just as an example) - we have a city with 10 million residents (give or take a few million). While the percentages (hence, the "ODDS") may be smaller, the sheer numbers of RW who are willing to consider marriage to a WM may, in fact, be larger - hence, chivo's perspective to not overlook the large cities.

My point is - it only takes one - whether she is from Moscow or Kyiv or Kremenchug or Komsomolsk (yes, there *is* a small village in Ukraine by that name - and yes, I *did* meet a terrific gal from there).

If a guy has any sense at all - he will take his time in making the decision for a life partner - and when there is a wise and considered choice made (on both sides) - there should be no looking back and both partners should take great pride in their partner for all the things they are and mean to them.

Just my take - FWIW

- Dan

[BillyB]

Of course their are sincere women in Moscow but the ODDS are better of finding a sincere girl in the smaller cities of Russia.  Don't we want the best odds when searching for a bride?

THINK ODDS!

I don't know what the odds of divorce is when having a marriage with Russia's big city women or small town women but Russia's overall divorce rate is a piss poor 69%. That has got to say something about people's sincerity towards commitment to staying in and nurturing their marriage through tough times.

Other FSU nations such as Uzbekistan on the other hand have only a 13% divorce rate and the RW are clearly different in Tashkent, FSU's 4th largest city compared to the RW in St. Petersburg and Moscow.

[Misha]

Gaubaub,

Ex-wife!!!!!  Now that's a story.  There is much more to you than you wish to disclose.  But it is good that you did not turn your back to RW. 

You reentered the scene with a better idea of what would work for you. 

Was your ex-wife one of those who feels entitled that every man should cater to her?  And when he doesn't, watch out.  That is the exact woman who gets under my skin the most. 

It is a long story, but suffice to say that after 8 years living with my ex-wife, I have little patience with Muscovites rattling on as to how superior their city is to the rest of Russia and how Moscow is truly a world metropolis. There are some good things about Moscow, but as a city I find that it is largely overrated.

[BC]

Regarding statistics, I've said it once and I'll repeat till I'm blue in the face.. THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS AT ONCE YOU GET DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL!!! You are better off relying on chaos theories when seardching for a mate than rely on statistics.

example:  You are attracted to blondes.  Even this simple 'cut' destroys any statistical value that doesn't specifically include the color of hair.  Add 'beautiful' and the results are even more sk(r)ewed. 

I really hope you guys attempting to use statistics eventually get this point: THEY DO NOT APPLY TO YOU!.

[KenC]

Regarding statistics, I've said it once and I'll repeat till I'm blue in the face.. THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS AT ONCE YOU GET DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL!!! You are better off relying on chaos theories when seardching for a mate than rely on statistics.

example:  You are attracted to blondes.  Even this simple 'cut' destroys any statistical value that doesn't specifically include the color of hair.  Add 'beautiful' and the results are even more sk(r)ewed. 

I really hope you guys attempting to use statistics eventually get this point: THEY DO NOT APPLY TO YOU!.

BC,
Sorry but I am not following you here.  Why are the divorce stats that Billy posted not relevent?  Why is a high of 69% in Russia and 13% in Uzbekistan not an indication of how things could be for one looking in those countries?
KenC

[Enot]

I hear you Mr. Admin.  

But let's listen from a woman from Moscow, Ms. Ash!  She says,

"There is no doubt you will find women in Moscow who are more sophisticated, educated, with internet, computer and English knowledge, BUT (and for some it is 'but' and for some it is 'and') she will not want to move to a little town God knows where and she will always know value of herself and she will probably want to find the same guy who lives in a big city, successful and determined, with good job and a place to live in, men with pink carpets in trailers and 25K a year need not apply..."

So if you can't provide her with a Moscow life style, then ODDS are she doesn't want you.  Most of us are from "small town America" and couldn't compete with a Moscow lifestyle.  Therefore our ODDS of being successful are not as good as someone from Uzbekistan, Latvia, or Moldova.

[Gator]

Anastassia,

Superb explanation of Moscow woman mentality.

You are correct that a man trying to do this on the cheap will not understand the expectations, determination, and worth of a Moscow woman.  In fact, I assert that a Moscow woman (and those like her in other cities) may not only be less expensive, she may substantially add to the family’s net worth over the years.

Let me explain by example:

-  You and your business.

-  JB’s wife is a professor, in a small city nonetheless.

-  Groovstk’s wife has successfully launched her career in NYC’s lucrative interior decorating business (something tells me she would not be fulfilled doing doublewides).

-  My future bride is determined to have her own business even though it is not necessary.

- Donna Pedro (most members will say “Who?”) started working as a tax accountant.

- I know a RW who was a medical doctor in Moscow, came to America and got work as a nurse and is advancing herself through the many obstacles to becoming certified to practice medicine.

These are examples of the ability of educated RW, not just those from Moscow, to earn income.  Please forgive me for neglecting to mention others.  

While a Moscow woman may have high expectations, she may become a net cash positive.  Especially if her man can be a mentor (and has some cash to take her through a period of adjustment)..

And this ignores the significant financial assets of Moscow women (some men may say “What?”).  It’s their apartments and the inflated prices for Moscow real estate.  My lady’s cozy and humble apartment, outside the metro limits, is worth $200k, and no mortgage.  How many men thinking about marrying a RW have a net worth of $200k?

So if a Moscow woman, or an educated woman in another city, seems disinterested in you, please do not label it as arrogance or insincerity.

[Misha]

And this ignores the significant financial assets of Moscow women (some men may say “What?”).  It’s their apartments and the inflated prices for Moscow real estate.  My lady’s cozy and humble apartment, outside the metro limits, is worth $200k, and no mortgage.  How many men thinking about marrying a RW have a net worth of $200k?

Just make sure she sells it before the bubble bursts. If the American sub-prime fiasco demonstrates anything, it is that an overinflated real estate market can collapse quite quickly.

I have to respond to a few other points, but my wife is calling. You will have to wait

[oldernotwiser]

I have been thinking about some of these issues myself.  And I understand what many are saying in that it doesn't matter where she is from.  And those who have discussed formulas for finding a match, where is the romance in such a logical process.  Like instead of shopping for groceries we are shopping for FSUW.

For some reason I see some logic in the thought that a Moscow or Kiev women might not be happy in a smaller city.

So is it crazy for me to focus my attention on cities that are similar in size to the location I live in or not.

After all, there is no way to get acquainted with all of the women from the FSU.

[BC]

BC,
Sorry but I am not following you here.  Why are the divorce stats that Billy posted not relevent?  Why is a high of 69% in Russia and 13% in Uzbekistan not an indication of how things could be for one looking in those countries?
KenC

Ken,

because these statistics reflect the coincidence of divorce among the total general population.  There can be wide variations between cities, income levels, even jobs of husband and wife held at the time of divorce.

Add the fact that a foreigner is involved in the relationship and the statistics become quite irrelevant.

To use the statistics, all women would have to be completely uniform.. and of course we know this is not the case.

This help?

[Gator]

Oldernotwiser,

After all, there is no way to get acquainted with all of the women from the FSU.

A few men have tried.

[BC]

For some reason I see some logic in the thought that a Moscow or Kiev women might not be happy in a smaller city.

So is it crazy for me to focus my attention on cities that are similar in size to the location I live in or not.

If you have a shopping mall, farmers market and large grocer next to your house she will probably be happy.

I see this issue mostly relating to her habits at home.  Being able to get around (transportation) is key.  If she lives in a city with a subway and extensive public transportation system she will likely miss it.. especially if cooped up in four walls without a drivers license and/or car in suburbia with only a 7/11, likely located across a busy 4 lane road with no pedestrian crosswalks.

Basically, for a time they loose all aspects of their prior independence.. and this can be extremely tough.