What's wrong with this picture?

[phantom]

Okay, this lady sent me her address at one of the agencies I'm on.  So, I wrote her back, after a month.  She wrote me back and I have to say, it wasn't the usual oh, Russian men are this and that type of letter.  Her English was flawless, and not the usuall 3 or four lines or the kind where you have to stop and wonder what they were talking about.  When she began a new paragraph, she seperated each one by two spaces.  Ending the letter with then some things like "Men promise her love and have used her as a sex toy and then thrown her away.  She wants love and a family, sex is wonderful, as long as you care about each other.  If I wish to play games, then don't write her back."  Of course some pictures, these two stood out to me.

What do you think?

[Lily]

Phantom,

Too little information in order for us to be able to say something.

Flawless English is fine. You both are able to ensure great communication.

Writing long letters and separating the paragraphs look also very good to me. That says that she is an articulate person, able to order her thoughts and express herself in a suitable way.

The end paragraph..probably she had had less than good experience with men and by writing this she wahts to stress her seriosity.

On the pictures...the woman on the photo probably lacks some feminine cuteness in her face. Very IMHO, however.

She should have been cautious using a picture where the person behind the camera is visible The mirroring walls on the backgrould could have been used in a more informative way

[phantom]

Lili,

Here is the letter, I never got such a letter, unless it had been translated by an agency, that is why I was curious about her and also the pictures as well.

 

[Serebro]

phantom, so what exactly did this woman do to be put into the sammers' sections with her photos and a personal letter to you?!

[Lily]

Phantom,

what in particular makes you uneasy about this person?

Her level of English is quite ok for a person who is not educated in an English speaking country, and is not used to work in English speaking professional environment in Russia.

As for the content of the letter..hmmm...hard to tell. IMHO I would not tell her writings reveal an outstanding communicator and an interesting person all around, but a girl from Kazan is not expected to be like a Phil Donahue anyway....

[Misha]

I read the letter and it seems pretty straight-forward to me. Also, keep in mind that Russian women have heard a lot about Western sex-tourists. When she writes: "I do not create relationships just for sex. I seek for serious and honest relationship with one men," I just read it to mean that she is warning you that she is not looking for a tryst with a visiting foreigner. Until proven otherwise, this seems to me just this woman's attempt to have a nice introductory letter.

[Serebro]

Phantom, do you know that on anti-date they have a section for "suspicious" men, would you like to be put there with your photos after writing the introductory letter to the girl?

[catzenmouse]

Phantom,

 I think the ladies are right on target here. This seems to me to be more paranoia related on your part and the only thing I can find in any way questionable is the man in the reflection who may be a boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, or her brother. You need to explore this further with her before jumping to these type of conclusions.

JMHO,
 Ken

[BC]

I was a little bit curious about the first photo.. looked a lot like Germany to me, but I did magnify the window at the left and saw the reflection of a logo in Cyrillic.

[Serebro]

I am from Kazan, too but I don't recognise the place...
I can say that they use bins like the one in the picture here

[phantom]

Well thanks,

I quess I was being just paranoid and the reason was that I've never gotten such a leter from a Russian girl, unless it was translated.  No, I don't want to be put on the site with the strange men.  I'll be getting to know this one a see what happens.  I think it must have been the picture is all.

[groovlstk]

Serebro is correct, why did you post this this woman's photos in the scammer forum?

Someone casually browsing RWD can come across this thread and think this woman is a scammer. You haven't even the slightest shred of proof that she is anything less than perfectly sincere.

I also think it's crass to post any women's photos here whom you don't know well (or at least have her permission) simply so that other members can comment about her physical appearance and whether or not she looks sincere or sinister.

On a seperate note, Phantom: I think you're at a dangerous juncture in your search. You've been kicked around a bit and now you're paranoid; it's hard to strike a balance between caution and optimism, but while you'll certainly weed out scammers very quickly this way, you're also going to turn off sincere girls who have too much self-respect to jump through hoops to prove their intentions. The only type of girl with the patience and long-term vision to put up with such suspicions is the GCG pestilence.

[Serebro]

Well thanks,

I quess I was being just paranoid and the reason was that I've never gotten such a leter from a Russian girl, unless it was translated.  No, I don't want to be put on the site with the strange men.  I'll be getting to know this one a see what happens.  I think it must have been the picture is all.

lol

I see...
if you ask for money in letters and write about how much you love the man you have never seen it's suspicious.

if you write a sincere letter it's extremely suspicious

In my practice I have had the opposite problem, almost all my letters were like the one above and what I received back were short notes and something silly, men didn't use my name, just something like "hi. it was nice to receive a letter from you...", they didn't answer my questions but asked me to write more about myself.Not 100% letters of course, but most of them.

[myrddin]

In my practice I have had the opposite problem, almost all my letters were like the one above and what I received back were short notes and something silly, men didn't use my name, just something like "hi. it was nice to receive a letter from you...", they didn't answer my questions but asked me to write more about myself.Not 100% letters of course, but most of them.

I'm sorry to hear that, Serebro (and not a little surprised, in your case  ).  I'm certainly not going to defend rude guys who won't even include your name, but just so you know: that happens to guys too.  (It doesn't mean it's a scam, either.)  Sometimes after a few messages people just disappear and you just have to assume that there wasn't enough of a spark.

Websites expand your audience of potential dates greatly, but unfortunately they don't change the proportion of good candidates.  I'll even venture to say that most of the serious seekers online are probably there because they have more trouble finding good matches than the "average" person.  And they're not willing to settle 

Generally, if a guy is genuinely interested, he will make an attempt at real communication (answering your questions, asking his own). And look at it this way: if he won't even respect your first letter and address you by name, best to get rid of him sooner than later.

Men: watch out for getting paranoid.  Personally, I'd rather get hurt sometimes than be afraid to take any chances at all.

Ladies: don't be afraid to write to a guy first!  It's more than flattering, and every guy who has ever asked a woman out knows what it's like to be rejected (politely or otherwise).  If he doesn't appreciate you taking that chance, it tells you something about his character.

[Lily]

Ladies: don't be afraid to write to a guy first!  It's more than flattering, and every guy who has ever asked a woman out knows what it's like to be rejected (politely or otherwise).  If he doesn't appreciate you taking that chance, it tells you something about his character.

The more men would think like you myrddin, the better for us  Did you read on this forum that a contact initiative from a woman, as well as her fluent English, are considered to be the red flags for men? 

[Admin]

The more men would think like you myrddin, the better for us  Did you read on this forum that a contact initiative from a woman, as well as her fluent English, are considered to be the red flags for men? 

Good point Lily. Probably need to make those 'Yellow Flag' indicators rather than Red - proceed with caution, but don't necessarily STOP.

- Dan

[Blues Fairy]

Did you read on this forum that a contact initiative from a woman, as well as her fluent English, are considered to be the red flags for men? 

He-he, it seems all of us here on this forum would be the epitomes of red flags.  

[BC]

Men: watch out for getting paranoid.  Personally, I'd rather get hurt sometimes than be afraid to take any chances at all.

Had to chuckle a bit about your statement...

I met and proposed to my wife a before hitting the boards in search for immigration info.

.. a short while later her grandmother passed on.

Yeah.. understand and agree with what you are trying to say.

IIRC in a recent thread Dan said something about taking folks at 'face value' and I think that is probably a good way to handle things unless intent is quite clear.  Now if your state of mind below the belt is such that it makes you a 'mark' then probably nothing can help anyway.

[Lily]

I feel that phantom still would like to get some advice. Well, to me the only negative thing that I notice about this woman would be her expressed cautiousness about becaming a toy. That could eventually be addressed by phantom. If I'd be in his shoes, I would first thank you for her seriousness and outrightness, and would cautiously ask her whether she really had some less than good experience with online dating. It seems that she appreciates directness. But again - be careful, diplomatic and positive, especially positive about herself.

[myrddin]

The more men would think like you myrddin, the better for us  Did you read on this forum that a contact initiative from a woman, as well as her fluent English, are considered to be the red flags for men? 

Thank you

I've read that here since my experience with scammers last year.  The "first contacts" I got were on true and match.  They did not write English very well.  I actually forgot that "good English" was supposed to be a red flag, but I don't think it is by itself.  I might be suspicious of absolutely flawless English - even many of the very fluent ladies here use some words in noticeably non-native ways   but all are far more adept in English than I will ever be in Russian!

I avoided losing any money to those scammers largely by luck, but my brain was not totally shut off: There were several classic red flags I did not recognize at the time and later learned about here, but even without that it became apparent that the only details were about *their* lives, not mine, and their dreams for "our" future were generic.  It took multiple messages to get answers to any questions.

But Phantom: give her a chance, write her back.  Use your judgment. 

Someone can let me know if it's not appropriate to mention here, but Elena's Anti-Scam book makes some excellent points and I recommend it. 
Scammers aren't that hard to recognize (they have to bring up money at some point!).  I am personally more worried about pro daters and users, but we all have to rely on our own judgment and experience when we meet new people, no matter what country they're from.

[Ronnie]

It's not so much what is wrong with this picture it's the absence of things that one would expect.

For example.  One would expect that a reply letter would address at least one item you mentioned in your letter.  Failure to do so, keeping the topic general and only about her, is one of the caution flags.

The extraneous spacing between the paragraphs should not be glossed over.  It is unusual and could be an indication of a letter with pasted-in paragraphs and not written in a free flow manner.

Having a photo taken by a male of about the same age could be harmless enough but one would hope for it to be taken by a girlfriend.

A picture take with roses, indicates you are not her only suitor and could be a hint that you should try to outdo the competition.  She chose these photos intentially and women seldom do things without purpose.

Taking things at face value when you don't know someone is not so wise.  I remember some years ago on RWG, a guy was a little surprised that a RW said she was flying to America to meet him.  She had even scanned and emailed him her ticket.  I asked him to forward that scan to me and as a travel agent I would check out it's authenticity.

I must admit it looked completely geniune to me at first glance...except for one thing.  It was a boarding pass with a travel date several weeks in the future.  Most of you know boarding passes are issued within 24 hours of departure only.  But I thought maybe Russia was different so I called the airline (Delta) and told them of my concerns.  Delta researched the ticket number and found it to be one issued to a woman with a Russian name but not the name of the scan.  Further the tkt had been for travel from Florida to Moscow a month earlier.

Inevitably, the request came for some financial help since she had had to borrow money to "buy" her ticket to come to see him.

Guys, much has been made about the ubiquitous "fat Yuri".  Often young married couples do very extreme things to improve their lives which may seem without hope.  I know of one instance where a Young Russian couple actually got divorced so the wife could be single and eligible to marry a western man.  After getting her green card, she would then try to get her (ex) husband to her new country where they would be again reunited. 

It's a touching love story when you think about it.  But it shows the callous disregard also for everything decent in society.  The plan was uncovered when she refused to sleep in the same room with her AM and immediately wanted to open a bank account in joint names with her ex.  A more skillful operator may have succeeded and I have little doubt such a plan has succeeded before.

[BC]

Nothing to loose so far except a little bit of time in a couple of email rounds.. or?

I usually ignore most posts during the writing phase.. Efforts are probably 4 naught until they sit at the same table.

Here I see some good advice and nothing to lose at least so far..

[groovlstk]

Did you read on this forum that a contact initiative from a woman, as well as her fluent English, are considered to be the red flags for men? 

Lily, I can't understand the arbitrary flag system that is applied anytime some socially inept guy asks for the public's opinion regarding his correspondence with a RW.

SO.... here's my take on it all

Guide to Flags

ENGLISH PROFICIENCY
-She speaks no English (so according to some posters here she's either a) Lazy b) Uneducated or c) Not serious about finding a Western husband). Flag color = gray for disinterest in you and your ilk.
-She speaks English at a basic or intermediate level, knock yourself out and go visit her. Flag color = green.
-She is fluent in English. Flag color = mayday red, as she's had extensive exposure to sleazy western guys who probably make a lot more $$ than you do and thus spoiled her!

LIVING CONDITIONS
-She has her own apartment and lives alone. Flag color = burnt orange, as such an arrangement leaves open the possibility that she entertains a lover or two, yet she's independent enough that if you marry her you won't have to assume the role of babysitter.
-She lives with mom & dad. So cute, and bedtime is 11PM! Such parental oversight ensures a wholesome, sex-free lifestyle. Flag color = white for virginal.

CAREER
-She has a "good" job that requires a university degree and her somewhat comfortable existence gives you peace of mind that she's not desperate or using you for a green card. Flag color = checkered.
-She works as a shop girl. Forget her.
-She has a good job, her income makes her part of her city's upper class, and she has travelled abroad. Flag color = scarlett red if she's travelled to Western Europe or the US, = orange if she's had a trip or two to Budapest or Prague, = green if scrimps all year long for a week in Crimea and has never left Ukraine or Russia.

[Ronnie]

There's something I would add of a general nature. 
It's something I learned the hard way over the years but I could have learned by reading more Shakespeare.

 "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Women (men too) seem to have a tendency to reveal their flaws by complaining about them generally or by insisting they are above reproach in one department or another. 

If a lady says she is "very honest"...watch her like a hawk.

If she says she doesn't like games...consider she may be a gamemaster herself.

If she says she loves you too early...she's lying.

If she talks too much about how the most important thing to her is family, she may be hiding her own lack of interest in anything except her own personal ambition.

And one more,  courtesy of the crusading (now ex) governor of New York;
If he says he's out to clean up corruption in his state....tap his phone!

Oh, I have another; if he says he's happily married and not gay....don't go into the men's room at the same time he does!

[Serebro]

 
groov, are you trying to hurt my best feelings?!

-She has her own apartment and lives alone. Flag color = burnt orange, as such an arrangement leaves open the possibility that she entertains a lover or two,

I have my own apartment and live alone.

-She has a good job, her income makes her part of her city's upper class, and she has travelled abroad. Flag color = scarlett red  if she's travelled to Western Europe or the US

I have travelled to the US