Black guy heading to Ukraine

[mendeleyev]

A couple we know in the USA is mixed race black and RW.  She grew up with my wife and I knew him before I had met my wife, small world.  However he would tell you that there are a lot of pitfalls.  Her family has visited the US, but he hesitates to return to Russia because of some of the things experienced while there.  She would tell you that there are struggles also from the black community accepting her as the wife of a black man.  I think some members of that community feel that not only did he cross the aisle to marry a white woman, but he married a Russian/foreign white woman--an even bigger snub in their view.

But the bottom line is that they love each other, have created a beautiful little family, and are two of the finest people one could imagine.  They've been married just under a decade and seem to have found the key to success.  Go and see for yourself and if it works for you, great!

When in Kyiv, make sure to take in a concert at the Kyiv Symphony Orchestra.  Google them for concert dates before you travel.  With your education and background, you might find interesting ladies at such events.

[BillyB]

However he would tell you that there are a lot of pitfalls.  Her family has visited the US, but he hesitates to return to Russia because of some of the things experienced while there.  She would tell you that there are struggles also from the black community accepting her as the wife of a black man.  I think some members of that community feel that not only did he cross the aisle to marry a white woman, but he married a Russian/foreign white woman--an even bigger snub in their view.

Yes, lots of pitfalls but I'd think TW1970 would be less of a man if he falls in love with a women, she falls in love with him and then go and ask for his and her community's advice if they should get married. But before he gets married to any RW, he needs to let her know the ugly truth on how some/many peers will react and if she's prepared for it.

[TwoBitBandit]

This is a picture I took in Russia.  These three gentlemen of African descent were allowing someone to sit on the throne and have their picture taken.  While the picture was being taken, the two of the guys would fan the "picturee" as if they were the king of some primitive tribe.  (If you look closely you can see the brightly colored fans they were using.)  They made their living by charging about 200 roubles for the picture.

I remember this picture because I was at the time on a walk with an RW.  I was trying to explain how something like this would not be seen where I lived because it was just too over-the-top in political incorrectness and racist overtones.  I couldn't really explain it well enough, her idea was "if they want to sell their picture in this way, why should they not do it?"

I saw these guys every day.  They would set up in the morning around 9 am and work until the sun started to set.  Clearly, they were living in Russia without a daily beating by the local skinheads.

I took the picture from far away so that the guys wouldn't see me and try to charge me 200 roubles. 

[Bruce]

Twobit, I saw the same thing ("take your picture with the primative") in Sochi as well as in Ukraine.  My favorite always is in St. Petersburg (I forget now if it is the wax museum or hall of oddities, but I believe it is the wax museum).  There they have nice primatives, blue-blooded, lips in royal regalia.   Not PC but real.

By the way, some girls will do anything to escape their lot in life.  I suppose if you are lucky you will find a green card girl. 

If I were you, I would try to enjoy your vacation.  Remember, the N bomb is normal language to refer to you.

[mendeleyev]

Reminds me of this black guy standing outside a metro station carrying a placard for a suntan studio!  This would never play well in the west either. 

Translation: Professional sunburn studio, 10 rubles per minute.


The phrase at the bottom changes the word for 'sunburn' just so slightly to indicate that this man has already 'sunburned' (tanned) at the studio.

[TW1970]

Reminds me of this black guy standing outside a metro station carrying a placard for a suntan studio!  This would never play well in the west either. 

Translation: Professional sunburn studio, 10 rubles per minute.


The phrase at the bottom changes the word for 'sunburn' just so slightly to indicate that this man has already 'sunburned' (tanned) at the studio.

That's actually kinda funny; I wonder what they would say if I walked in (with a vid camera)and asked for a tanning session. Sort of my attempt at a reverse Borat movie.. This also reminds me of some folks from other countries I've met abroad who were wearing T-shirts with sayings written on them in English. Only thing is that if they knew what was written on them, they wouldn't have worn them. The USA has become very politically correct. Remember those old Airplane movies?

[TW1970]

She would tell you that there are struggles also from the black community accepting her as the wife of a black man.  I think some members of that community feel that not only did he cross the aisle to marry a white woman, but he married a Russian/foreign white woman--an even bigger snub in their view.

You couldn't have said it better. While there are some White folks that don't agree with interracial relationships (maybe even a few on here), when Black sistas see you holding hands with a White woman (most can't tell if she's from Russia or Rhode Island; only that she's not Black), they get all bent out of shape.

When in Kyiv, make sure to take in a concert at the Kyiv Symphony Orchestra.  Google them for concert dates before you travel.  With your education and background, you might find interesting ladies at such events.

Thanks for the info! I'll try to check it out when I am there.

[catzenmouse]

Makes me want to find some of those old "Fly United" t-shirts with the ducks on them to send to the relatives in Russia...

For the ultimate in Non-PC I think Blazing Saddles has to be at the top of the list. As much as I love those Airplane movies (does anyone remember the TV show Police Squad) I'll have to list Blazing Saddles as one of my favorites.

Ken

That's actually kinda funny; I wonder what they would say if I walked in (with a vid camera)and asked for a tanning session. Sort of my attempt at a reverse Borat movie.. This also reminds me of some folks from other countries I've met abroad who were wearing T-shirts with sayings written on them in English. Only thing is that if they knew what was written on them, they wouldn't have worn them. The USA has become very politically correct. Remember those old Airplane movies?

[ScottinCrimea]

The funniest experience I had regarding t-shirts with English writing on them was on one occasion when a friend of ours had just gotten a shipment of t-shirts from the US to sell at her second hand store.  Her teenage son latched onto one that he particularly liked and was proudly wearing it when we came to visit.  he turned bright red and quickly removed it when we translated it for him.  It said:  I f*cked your boyfriend".

[Bob Smith]

Sorry about that but the same here. It may seem strange but it is more about 'curiosity' than anything.
Why don't you want to marry a black woman? To add race differences to the cultural is a doom, I think. Her being 21 is toooooo young, for anybody.

AnastassiaAsh,

This is my first post on this message board.  I have been lurking for awhile, but I had to respond to this comment.  Do you have any idea how outside American societal norms it is for a US citizen to get on the internet and meet and marry a Russian woman?  I can tell you I know of a heck of a lot more interracial marriages in the US than “mail order bride” marriages.  And make no mistake.  Most Americans view your relationship with your American husband as a “mail order bride” marriage.  The feminazis are actually trying to pass laws to prevent what you’ve done while years ago laws related to interracial marriages were stricken from the books.  The odds on favorite to become the next president of the United States is the product of an interracial marriage and people of all ethnicities are fascinated by it.  Somehow I don’t think the product of a “mail order bride” would be getting as much positive press.  Which America are you living in?

By the way you should check out this guy's website... http://agencyscams.com/Relationship.html.  He seems to be of the mind that "mail order bride" marriages to Russians and Ukrainians are "doomed to fail."

I think its tough for anyone dabbling in this pool to point a finger at someone else and say their relationship is outside of societal norms.

It sounds to me like you have a personal problem marrying outside of your race which is fine.  Everyone is entitled to marry who they want, but don't get on a high horse and act like your marriage is the template for everyone else.

[Bob Smith]

Some people think it's wrong to marry outside your race.

It's definitely wrong to encourage others to marry people they're not attractive to. I don't know why every time a black guy comes here to ask questions, others ask him to stick with or consider women of his own race as if he never thought about that? How many times have you Western men, pursuing RW, had anyone ask you if you considered dating someone at home? Gee, that never crossed my mind.

BillyB,

Very intelligent answer.  Everyone is here for their own reasons.  Marrying these girls from overseas gets enough bad press elsewhere.  Forum members shouldn't be beating each other up over their choices.  Just my opinion.

[Gtex]

Bob,
I think you are kind of missing a point here... the comment of Ms. Ash is that of the mind set of a Russian Woman.  It is not only a correct estimation of the Russian attitude (IMHO), moreover it is even generous.  This is not to say it can not work, we have covered this numerous times in the past and seen the reports of some success.  To deduce from her comment the implications you do may not be appropriate or even relevant.  Being new here, a review of her comments might prove beneficial for you, then search "Serebro" and read some of hers.  If you are expecting a rationality based on Western mores...  prepare to be sorely disappointed.

[ScottinCrimea]

Bob, I have to agree that I believe you missed the point.  While interracial marriages are becoming much more accepted in the US, that is NOT the case in the FSU.  If you have read much of this forum you know that the cultural differences in marrying an FSUW make it much more difficult.  While there are still difficulties in the US due to attitudes regarding interracial marriages, those difficulties are much worse in the FSU because the attitudes toward it are much worse.  I'm not saying it's right, it's just the facts.  So I believe what Annastasia was saying is that a black man marrying an FSUW would be faced with two issues that would make not only the search, but the marriage much more difficult.  She's free to correct me if I misrepresented her views.

[Bob Smith]

Bob,
I think you are kind of missing a point here... the comment of Ms. Ash is that of the mind set of a Russian Woman.  It is not only a correct estimation of the Russian attitude (IMHO), moreover it is even generous.  This is not to say it can not work, we have covered this numerous times in the past and seen the reports of some success.  To deduce from her comment the implications you do may not be appropriate or even relevant.  Being new here, a review of her comments might prove beneficial for you, then search "Serebro" and read some of hers.  If you are expecting a rationality based on Western mores...  prepare to be sorely disappointed.

Gtex,

AnastassiaAsh's exact comment was, "to add race differences to the cultural is a doom."  By which I'm deducing she meant such a relationship is doomed.  That's a pretty concrete absolute statement.  That's not saying give it a whirl sometimes it works.  That's saying those types of relationships are DOOMED.  Secondly I've looked at a number of sources on the web and no one has really complete robust records that indicate the true success or failure rate of White American men marrying White Russian "mail order brides."  So I'm not sure how someone can speak about the success rate of the even rarer relationship of a Black American man married to a White Russian "mail order bride."  I mean does anyone here know of any "mail order bride" who divorced her black American husband simply because his skin had more melanin than hers?

Even without knowing anything about Russia I would assume it would be more difficult for a black man to find white Russian women that would be interested in dating him.  Just as it would be difficult for a white American man to find a black American woman that wanted to date him.  I don't think anyone with half a brain is questioning that.

Anecdotally my experience has been that if a European woman is the open minded sort that entertains these types of relationships race isn't going to be an issue once a person is married.  They're going to have plenty of other things to fight about.  After all a lot of white and black Americans are more similar to each other than white Americans and white Russians.  I've worked with well educated blacks and whites from good families with great jobs and they were a heck of a lot more similar than any "mail order bride" would be to either of them.  I think the average American would say marrying a "mail order bride" is weird and would be fraught with problems.  I've never seen an exposé that says, "its fine... unless of course you have more melanin in your skin."

[Makkin]

Hello,


  You keep harping back to Mellatone and that sort of thing but in reality that may be the problem at the base of the whole situation?

   Okay okay okay...anything is possible and I wish everyone the best in this pursuit but for gods sake listen to the truth of these matters and not as they are compared to American ideals.

Makkin

[Bob Smith]

Hello,


  You keep harping back to Mellatone and that sort of thing but in reality that may be the problem at the base of the whole situation?

   Okay okay okay...anything is possible and I wish everyone the best in this pursuit but for gods sake listen to the truth of these matters and not as they are compared to American ideals.

Makkin

What is Mellatone?

The truth of these matters?

Makkin, I've been searching the web looking for "the truth of these matters."  I have not found robust reliable statistics for the durability of Russian "mail order brides" marrying white American men.  Which I would have to imagine is exponentially more common than black American men marrying Russian "mail order brides."  So I'm wondering how anyone can make such a concrete statement.

Secondly my anecdotal information was NOT from a purely American perspective.  It involved White European women and black American men.  A couple of the women were Russian and well educated... they dated a bit but didn't marry.

My point being in my experience either a woman will date a person of a particular race or they won't.  They don't marry them and then wake up a year into the marriage and realize their husband is black and get a divorce.  The guy might have a smaller pool to pick from on the front end but if I were him I wouldn't turn down an interested Russian woman just because someone says his skin's melanin content will "doom" the relationship.  No objective evidence has been presented that that is somehow going to be far and away a bigger concern than if he found a complete stranger on the internet from a country with a different culture and a substantially lower per capita GDP and decided to marry her.  Now the age thing... I've definitely heard discouraging things about 21 yo Russian girls http://agencyscams.com/Newbie.html.  I dunno how true these reports are.  I would certainly welcome more information about race, age, education and other factors that contribute to the success or failure of these types of marriages.

Sure race is going to be an issue on the front end, but if a woman has repeatedly shown interest in my experience it would be unusual for her to suddenly want out of the marriage later just because of skin color.

[2tallbill]

AnastassiaAsh,

This is my first post on this message board.  I have been lurking for awhile, but I had to respond to this comment.  Do you have any idea how outside American societal norms it is for a US citizen to get on the internet and meet and marry a Russian woman?  I can tell you I know of a heck of a lot more interracial marriages in the US than “mail order bride” marriages.  And make no mistake.  Most Americans view your relationship with your American husband as a “mail order bride” marriage.  The feminazis are actually trying to pass laws to prevent what you’ve done while years ago laws related to interracial marriages were stricken from the books.  The odds on favorite to become the next president of the United States is the product of an interracial marriage and people of all ethnicities are fascinated by it.  Somehow I don’t think the product of a “mail order bride” would be getting as much positive press.  Which America are you living in?

By the way you should check out this guy's website... http://agencyscams.com/Relationship.html.  He seems to be of the mind that "mail order bride" marriages to Russians and Ukrainians are "doomed to fail."

I think its tough for anyone dabbling in this pool to point a finger at someone else and say their relationship is outside of societal norms.

It sounds to me like you have a personal problem marrying outside of your race which is fine.  Everyone is entitled to marry who they want, but don't get on a high horse and act like your marriage is the template for everyone else.

Bob, before you bust Anastassia's chops you should realize that she is a RW. She lived in Moscow which is the most cosmopolitan city in the FSU.

Since she is an RW she gave her non politically correct opinion. I have never met a politically correct RW. It's actually kind of refreshing to hear a woman actually say what she actually thinks. You will never find this with AW.

She gave her opinion which is what TW1970 asked for.

I have read TW's posts and he seems to be an articulate, educated and level headed man capable of sorting through whatever BS he might find. I think he will find RW refreshing as well since they often say exactly what's on their minds.

One thing I would say to TW is that the food is great, the long history and rich culture is amazing and that making the trip is a good idea regardless of other objectives.

I played college basketball which is the most colorblind example of any that I have seen anywhere. If you are better than another player then that is the only thing that matters. I have seen this being adopted in business as well. It only makes sense to choose the most intelligent and most qualified in any endeavour.


I wish TW luck and success!

Just my two kopecks,


Bill

PS. calling any woman a "mail order bride" is inaccurate, demeaning and sooooooo........wrong. I know it's a term frequently used, but there is simply no such thing.

PS2: I am not busting your chops over the mail order bride thing even though any RW would be offended at being called one.

[catzenmouse]

Since she is an RW she gave her non politically correct opinion.

Isn't that what Bob was doing as well?

PS. calling any woman a "mail order bride" is inaccurate, demeaning and sooooooo........wrong. I know it's a term frequently used, but there is simply no such thing.

PS2: I am not busting your chops over the mail order bride thing even though any RW would be offended at being called one.

C'mon now Bill, everybody uses this term as it is known and understood. The fact that he put it in quotes should at least tell you that he's singled it out for a purpose.

FWIW

[Bob Smith]

PS. calling any woman a "mail order bride" is inaccurate, demeaning and sooooooo........wrong. I know it's a term frequently used, but there is simply no such thing.

PS2: I am not busting your chops over the mail order bride thing even though any RW would be offended at being called one.

Hey Bill and catzenmouse,

Thanks for your responses.  Sorry I was typing in a hurry and talking about a complex touchy subject with a lot of nuances.  catzenmouse you are correct I used quotes because its someone else's term.  Its not a term I would use.  My posts were lengthy and convoluted enough that I used this simply way to convey this term is a misnomer.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Hi Bob, I have just noticed this discussion about what I said, so I will try to reply here. As some already noted (thank you guys for standing by me), I am a very open and honest person, I am always for a harsh truth than sugar coated lie, I say as it is. I understand completely that my words can hurt and make some people feel offended. But in no way i am doing this to 'hurt' you. I am doing this for the truth itself, actually for you, to 'heal' you and then to 'guide' you in a right direction. It is almost like when a child wants to play all the time and doesn't want to do his homework, you have to stop him at some point, tell him what he has to do, yes, he will cry, but you (as a grownup) know that this is what he has to do and in a long run it teaches him responsibility and gets him into the top of his class, university, profession and so on....

It is absolutely the same here. I care about success of each man who asks for my help. What ever question it is i always answer with the best outcome for HIM, not me or anybody else. Instead of telling you - yes, she is ok, keep calling her and (let me make another $50 making these calls) - I will tell you - you know, these are the things that concern me, or here is one thing that is a red flag for me and is already enough for me to tell you to drop this woman, you do not or won't need such a woman. Instead of telling you - you look great, awesome pictures - i will say this picture is good, this one is not because... and this one is too old, and frankly speaking you have to have a hear cut and spend two or three months in the gym - then I can guarantee you more success. While dealing with your intro letter I always advise you to add some really tough and important questions to ask her at once, instead of just writing about you, your family and your work...

coming back to your message to me:

AnastassiaAsh,
Do you have any idea how outside American societal norms it is for a US citizen to get on the internet and meet and marry a Russian woman?  I can tell you I know of a heck of a lot more interracial marriages in the US than “mail order bride” marriages. 

Bob, I think this feeling of 'rarity' was about 10 years ago, but not now. Sometimes it seems to me that it is actually harder to find couples who met usual way, rather than through the internet from other countries (including CIS countries). Well, I think you are slightly mixing two things - you are finding more interracial marriages in the US - the clue word here is 'in the US'. Most often than not both a woman and a man have been living here for a while, or were born here, or came here when they were little. Cultural and language differences are at a minimum. Now our poster in this thread is black AND wants to find a woman in Ukraine, it is not like finding a white woman in the US (interracial), but double that. As to MOB, as somebody said it doesn't exist and I agree with that.

And make no mistake.  Most Americans view your relationship with your American husband as a “mail order bride” marriage. 

Hahaha!  First of all, if we talk about me personally, most Americans actually don't even suspect I am not originally from here  , thus don't even think in this direction. Those who do know I am from Russia, are just very curious and usually tell me about 2-5 stories of other American-Russian/Ukrainian couples they know...In any way both of these groups of people or any other you might think of, looking both at me and my husband and our son, this way or the other express their joy for our marriage and everything that encompasses it, and most often than not I am sure even jealousy about this or that matter....

The feminazis are actually trying to pass laws to prevent what you’ve done while years ago laws related to interracial marriages were stricken from the books.  The odds on favorite to become the next president of the United States is the product of an interracial marriage and people of all ethnicities are fascinated by it.  Somehow I don’t think the product of a “mail order bride” would be getting as much positive press.  Which America are you living in?

I live in Christian white America who will choose McCain! 

By the way you should check out this guy's website... http://agencyscams.com/Relationship.html.  He seems to be of the mind that "mail order bride" marriages to Russians and Ukrainians are "doomed to fail."

Sorry, i didn't have time to check this website, but I think that everybody is doomed to fail if they do not know what they are doing.

I think its tough for anyone dabbling in this pool to point a finger at someone else and say their relationship is outside of societal norms.

I am not pointing any fingers, but his own black folks will! and actually hers white ones too! 99% out of 100%. How do I know? Because I am Russian and am telling you the average opinion of Russian/Ukrainian women...It is up to every man to decide if he wants to go against this kind of odds.

It sounds to me like you have a personal problem marrying outside of your race which is fine.  Everyone is entitled to marry who they want, but don't get on a high horse and act like your marriage is the template for everyone else.

Oh, this is so good, you can't even imagine.  You said it yourself! My marriage actually IS a template for everybody else! Was, is and always will be! As well as the example of other successful marriages on this board. And I will be very honest again and say that mine will be even more exemplar because I didn't marry a guy who is 20 years or more older than me but just 4, I knew English and American culture pretty well, I was very far from poor, I am Christian and married a Christian man....and the list goes on..... I and my marriage is respected by both young and old, lots of people from different boards know my story.

Bob, I don't think you know it, I would be glad to tell you though, you are welcome to contact me....  You are wrong about a high horse thing  I just know my own value and don't have self-respect issues, at the same time, you know it is kind of hard to be on a high horse and simultaneously take care of your dieing of cancer husband for about 3 years in a row.... this is just one of the tests that I had to pass and I know I will be very content about my actions when I die and stand before Jesus...----> that's what matters the most.

[Makkin]

Hi,

  Bob,

  I wish everyone good things in this process but I am being honest in my opinion and hope that may count for something similar to honesty...lol

  Yes, the aspect of anyone of any color having and good marriage to a RW is hard work and also may sometimes be a harder thing than most people would like to admit at times but a black man from America will have many more problems than a white man.

  The answer to "why" may be personal at some level but the answer to "why" should be clear at the different levels of this process.

Makkin

[2tallbill]

Isn't that what Bob was doing as well?

C'mon now Bill, everybody uses this term as it is known and understood. The fact that he put it in quotes should at least tell you that he's singled it out for a purpose.

FWIW

Yes, that is why I said that I wasn't busting his chops about it in PS2

[ScottinCrimea]

Even without knowing anything about Russia ...

Bob, I think here is the core of why you don't fully understand what those here are trying to say.  To "search the net" for statistics and answers just doesn't cut it.  You are disagreeing with the opinions of those who are natives of that country or who have lived there based on what?  I'm curious as to what your experience is with the FSU and its culture and mindset.  What you are writing is certainly the "American ideal" regarding interracial marriage, but it doesn't work so well in the FSU.

Perhaps you could tell us what your experience is as far as time spent in the FSU so we can better guage your experience versus opinion versus internet knowledge as the source of your opinions.

I don't think anyone here is saying that a marriage will succeed or fail based on the amount of melanin in a person's skin, or that a RW will suddenly wake up and say, "OHhmy gosh!  My husband's black!"  What they are trying to tell you is that the attitudes toward this are different and that is what will affect the marriage.  It is not considered unreasonable for an FSUW who is intelligent, educated and open-minded to have a bias regarding interracial marriage.  Maybe the best way that I can present it that you can relate to is if you imagine the difficulties of an interracial marriage in 1950's America.  Certain attitudes towards blacks were considered acceptable in all levels of society and the pressures placed on a woman who would marry a black man by family, friends and society in general were such that only the strongest survived.  This doesn't even begin to go into the pressures placed on the children of an interracial marriage.

I have lived long enough to see the attitudes toward this in the US change dramatically, and I am 100% for it.  This change in attitude is in the very early stages in the FSU and it will be a long time, if ever, before it reaches where it is in the US.

[Bob Smith]

I live in Christian white America who will choose McCain! 

Whoa.  Okay.

[Makkin]

 Why the Whoa.?

Makkin