Run for your lives....The propaganda war

[Shadow]

Shadow,
Make whatever self-serving proclamation you wish.
I've enjoyed LAUGHING at the idiotic "advice" you've given to people here

Troll

[krimster]

Troll?  Sounds exactly like what YOU'RE doing right now, hypocrite.

[Shadow]

Troll?  Sounds exactly like what YOU'RE doing right now, hypocrite.

Troll.

[Serebro]

krimster, I have been a member of this website for 10 months by now and you are the second person I want to see in my iggy box.
Bye

[Misha]

Krimster is not a troll, rather IMHO he refuses to be a shill of the Russian state apologizing for the sad reality that freedom of the press no longer exists in Russia. In the same way that Russia is a "managed" democracy, the press is also managed by the Kremlin. Even Russian sources acknowledge this.

This is what one of Russia's leading television personalities/journalists had to say: 'Vladimir Pozner has disclosed to the world a terrible secret: on March 27, during a roundtable discussion on “moral and ethical issues in Russian television, and possible amendments to the Law on Mass Media', he announced that there is no freedom of speech in the Russian mass media. The distinguished television alum further insisted that “our Law on Mass Media is failing in the most important respect:  I can confirm that in our television programming, and not only our television programming, there is no freedom of speech.” For example, according to Pozner, during recent parliamentary and presidential elections 'there were subjects that were completely off-limits: things that could not be talked about, things that could not be shown, people who could not be invited to speak on air.'"

Sources.

The original Russian: http://www.ej.ru/?a=news&id=8035
The translation: http://russophobe.blogspot.com/2008/03/another-original-lr-translation-good.html

[Serebro]

gabaub is the 3-rd one

[Misha]

gabaub is the 3-rd one

Only third? I will have to try harder 

[55North]

Here's some typical stinky propaganda planned in Moscow, modelled on  (German ) Nazi propaganda!  So much for the Great Patriotic War!  How some fathers must be turning in their graves.

http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2008/03/window-on-eurasia-anti-immigrant-group.html

It never ceases to amaze me how idiots such as this can claim Russians as an ethnic entity.  Apart from being constitutionally a Federation of republics and 'nations', there has never been an ethnically pure Russia in history, as Germany before.
 
With actions like this, and the accompanying murder rate of former Soviet comrades due to their appearance of being a bit 'swarthy', how can Moscow be surprised by the epithet Neo-Nazi?

[wxman]

A lot of similarities between the anti immigrant reaction in Russia and the anit immigrant reaction in the US. The methods they use may be different, but the message is the same in both countries. Nationalism is alive and well in both.

[55North]

Nationalism is to support/love (possibly obsessively) your nation, not the conjecture of some hypothetical racial purity.
 
No. this not nationalism.  It is racism and/or fascism.

[Blues Fairy]

Here's some typical stinky propaganda planned in Moscow, modelled on  (German ) Nazi propaganda!  So much for the Great Patriotic War!  
http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2008/03/window-on-eurasia-anti-immigrant-group.html

With actions like this, and the accompanying murder rate of former Soviet comrades due to their appearance of being a bit 'swarthy', how can Moscow be surprised by the epithet Neo-Nazi?

So there are racists and neo-nazis in Moscow, as there are racists and neo-nazis in any other city or country of the world.  So their propaganda is carried out in a very professional fashion.  Are you going to label ALL Moscow population racist and neo-nazi?

[Misha]

So there are racists and neo-nazis in Moscow, as there are racists and neo-nazis in any other city or country of the world. So their propaganda is carried out in a very professional fashion.  Are you going to label ALL Moscow population racist and neo-nazi?

Well, we don't have many neo-Nazis in Canada's largest cities going around attacking immigrants and anybody else they don't see as belonging to Canada. True, there will always be wackos, but the question is whether the state aids and abets them. I see Russia doing little to crack down on its neo-Nazis.

[wxman]

Nationalism is to support/love (possibly obsessively) your nation, not the conjecture of some hypothetical racial purity.
 
No. this not nationalism.  It is racism and/or fascism.

You are correct. I should have said, racism is alive in well in both countries. My blunder.

[Blues Fairy]

Well, we don't have many neo-Nazis in Canada's largest cities going around attacking immigrants and anybody else they don't see as belonging to Canada. True, there will always be wackos, but the question is whether the state aids and abets them. I see Russia doing little to crack down on its neo-Nazis.

This particular organization is more nationalist than racist or neo-nazi.  Anyway, neither nationalist nor racist propaganda infringes on the freedom of speech - only acts of direct aggression can be persecuted.  The latter are always cracked down upon and the perpetrators are brought to justice.  Besides, the nazis have been banned from participating in the elections.

These policies mirror the situation in USA and other countries. 
E.g.: http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12808pub19941231.html

As for Canada's complacency to illegals, I guess you guys simply have more moral and cultural restrictions to your nationalism, just like the Dutch many of whom recently condemned Geert Wilders' anti-Islamic movie.  Well, what can I say.  Some nations fear to be labeled racist more than being overtaken by the immigrants, some - the other way round.   

[Serebro]

So there are racists and neo-nazis in Moscow, as there are racists and neo-nazis in any other city or country of the world.  So their propaganda is carried out in a very professional fashion.  Are you going to label ALL Moscow population racist and neo-nazi?

yeah,I wonder why all these "nice" men from the "well informed" and "non faschist" western world prefer to avoid their "nice" liberal women and go to the FSU to become relatives with these "racist" rude "commies"...


I wish I could tell more stories from my "western" past, but as soon as men here are ignored by me it will be boring so I will not.

[UTRO]

As for Canada's complacency to illegals, I guess you guys simply have more moral and cultural restrictions to your nationalism, just like the Dutch many of whom recently condemned Geert Wilders' anti-Islamic movie.  Well, what can I say.  Some nations fear to be labeled racist more than being overtaken by the immigrants, some - the other way round.   

Canada's complacency to illegals? Well, I guess due to the subjectiveness of human nature we we all suffer from labeling and misconception 
 

[Blues Fairy]

Canada's complacency to illegals? Well, I guess due to the subjectiveness of human nature we we all suffer from labeling and misconception 

I agree that I may know too little to pass a judgement.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11047/canadas_immigration_policy.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F211%2Fcanada

Experts put the number of undocumented immigrants in Canada at between 100,000 and 200,000 people. It is illegal for companies in Canada to hire undocumented workers—they can face fines and even jail time—but this law is rarely enforced. Many illegal immigrants in Canada are failed refugee claimants who never leave the country, or people who overstay visas. Illegal immigrants are most numerous in the construction and hospitality industries. "It isn't as big a problem as in the United States, but it is still a problem," says Blakely. "There are a fair number of people who are working in the underground economy in British Columbia, in Vancouver, and in Toronto, who are being paid less [than the legal minimum] and are being exploited."  

[55North]

So there are racists and neo-nazis in Moscow, as there are racists and neo-nazis in any other city or country of the world.  So their propaganda is carried out in a very professional fashion.  Are you going to label ALL Moscow population racist and neo-nazi?

Sorry not to get back sooner.   Of course all Moscow is not racist.  For a start, Moscow is representative of the Federation ethnically, though not in proportion.
 
The point to be made is that there are a number of such groups, in most of the bigger North Western cities.  It appears as though such groups believe they have the blessing, if not of the Kremlin, then the Mayor's office, or somebody 'connected' to such.
 
I'm very much minded of Nashi, now 'put out to grass', as their usefulness has served its purpose (in the elections).  Aspects of their behaviour, particularly in respect of last summer's camps, reminded many journalists of the Hitler Youth of the last century, and this was born out by interviews with the participants.
 
So you must understand why a very close watch is kept on such manifestations in Russia.  It's not that people are against Russia, quite the reverse.  We actually want her to pass through such 'infantile disorder' and sit with others who have past beyond internal oppression.  Of course, we all have throw-backs, but in Europe and North America, such people are completely marginalised nowadays.

[Shadow]

As for Canada's complacency to illegals, I guess you guys simply have more moral and cultural restrictions to your nationalism, just like the Dutch many of whom recently condemned Geert Wilders' anti-Islamic movie.  Well, what can I say.  Some nations fear to be labeled racist more than being overtaken by the immigrants, some - the other way round.   

Being Dutch I can tell that Geert Wilders has a lot of support, probably more than the official government standpoint admits. For a demonstration against his views only 1300 people turned up.
His movie however was more hype than substance.

[Serebro]

http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/06/nationalism_is_.html

Patriotism is nuanced, complex; nationalism is not.

I, for instance, am a patriot. I love America. I also cherish and respect other nations, cultures and ideas from around the world, but I'd love to see America do well in the global community. People like Sen. Dick Durbin are patriots, too. He loves this country as much as any Republican claims to, but it pains him to see that his nation isn't more dissimilar from Stalinist Russia or Hitler's Germany. He and I and many others love America, so it especially stings when we find the problems we work so hard to combat cropping up in our own behavior. We would never want to leave at the first sign of trouble; we are more likely to stay and try to fix what troubles us. We love America like parents love their children: We look after them and champion their achievements, but aren't afraid to step in and practice tough love, fixing their mistakes.

Nationalists love America, too, but they love it like young children love their parents. Mommy and Daddy are always right, can do no wrong and are the best parents ever. This "my dad can beat up your dad" mentality causes nationalists to ignore America's bumps and bruises

http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/daniel/eng/vs/nationalism.htm

in any event, it is ubiquitous in the US: flags, the anthem, "pledge of allegiance" every morning in every school, politicians regularly praising "the greatest nation on earth" etc. This is nauseating to the average German, but it is also rather difficult to understand given the widespread hatred of the government and its institutions in the US. Apparently, the nation is seen to be a completely separate entity from the nation's institutions. Atrocities committed by the army in the various wars, crimes committed all over the world by the CIA, and the huge social problems of the country are openly discussed and part of the public consciousness, but all of this does not seem to have much of an impact on the American's love of their nation. When asked directly, they usually explain that they love the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence and in the constitution, most of all the commitment to freedom. The economic system of free entrepreneurship is also often an object of love.

http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Voices-White-Nationalism-America/dp/0521816734

This book presents ten alarmingly candid interviews by some of the most prominent members of what co-editors Carol M. Swain and Russ Nieli warn is a growing White Nationalist movement.

Skinheads USA: Soldiers of the Race War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinheads_USA:_Soldiers_of_the_Race_War


Neo-Nazi organizations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#United_States
American Nazi Party - U.S.
National Alliance - U.S.
National Socialist Movement - U.S.
Heritage Front - Canada
National Socialist Vanguard - U.S.
Aryan Nation - U.S., Canada
United National Socialist Movement - U.S., Canada

[Misha]

I agree that I may know too little to pass a judgement.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11047/canadas_immigration_policy.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F211%2Fcanada

Experts put the number of undocumented immigrants in Canada at between 100,000 and 200,000 people. It is illegal for companies in Canada to hire undocumented workers—they can face fines and even jail time—but this law is rarely enforced. Many illegal immigrants in Canada are failed refugee claimants who never leave the country, or people who overstay visas. Illegal immigrants are most numerous in the construction and hospitality industries. "It isn't as big a problem as in the United States, but it is still a problem," says Blakely. "There are a fair number of people who are working in the underground economy in British Columbia, in Vancouver, and in Toronto, who are being paid less [than the legal minimum] and are being exploited."  

The source you cite also writes: "Canada provides immigrants with language training and access to Canada's national health care and social welfare programs. "The Canadian government has many more programs to welcome immigrants and help them settle than the United States," says Deborah Meyers of the Migration Policy Institute, a Washington-based group."

Also, 100,000 to 200,000 seems like a large number of illegal immigrants, but out of a total population of 35,000,000 it represents less than 1% of the entire population. This compares to the United States which has anywhere from 7 to 20 million illegal immigrants (see http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html). If the 20 million number is right, illegal immigrants would represent close to 5% of the United States population.

[55North]

Serebo, you forgot to mention....

United Kingdom

November 9th Society (also known as the British Nazi Party)
British Movement
British National Front
Combat 18
International Third Position
League of St. George
National Socialist Movement (1960s)
National Socialist Movement
NF Flag Group
White Nationalist Party

As I said, completely marginalised, not in your face in any city now, and often the same handful of people reforming into new groups as they get infiltrated.
 
Probably nobody died, which is the point.

[Blues Fairy]

Of course, we all have throw-backs, but in Europe and North America, such people are completely marginalised nowadays.

Gabaub's allegation against Russia was that its government does little to suppress far-right extremist propaganda.  Answer: for the same reasons such movements are not suppressed in Europe and North America, with notable historically painful exceptions such as NDP in Germany.  Racist organizations in the States enjoy freedom of speech just like any other organizations.

[UTRO]

I agree that I may know too little to pass a judgement.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11047/canadas_immigration_policy.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F211%2Fcanada

Experts put the number of undocumented immigrants in Canada at between 100,000 and 200,000 people. It is illegal for companies in Canada to hire undocumented workers—they can face fines and even jail time—but this law is rarely enforced. Many illegal immigrants in Canada are failed refugee claimants who never leave the country, or people who overstay visas. Illegal immigrants are most numerous in the construction and hospitality industries. "It isn't as big a problem as in the United States, but it is still a problem," says Blakely. "There are a fair number of people who are working in the underground economy in British Columbia, in Vancouver, and in Toronto, who are being paid less [than the legal minimum] and are being exploited."  

Well, this is exactly what makes our government so hypocritical when they practically throw Visas at Asian, African and Carribean Nationals, but ignorantly stand defiant when it comes to granting them to FSU Women to visit their Canadian boyfriends! lol! Speaking of Neo-nazis! I hate to sound a racist note, but our government does seem to prejudice against the European race
I personally know a family who has Illegal relatives living with them. Some are okay, others are worthless. They do absolutely nothing for the economy of the country. They pay no taxes and send most wages back to where they come from. One was even arrested for dealing drugs to highschoolers 3 years ago. He still hasn't been deported! I know a pregnant girl who crossed over the border on a 90 day Visa from Trinidad. By looking at her, any Custom Agent could tell she was in her final days of pregnancy! She now has a little boy who's a Canadian Citizen I once checked to see if Canada had a 'Snitch Line' to report Illegals, like the US does. None exists......  

[Jet]

http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/06/nationalism_is_.html

Nationalists love America, too, but they love it like young children love their parents. Mommy and Daddy are always right, can do no wrong and are the best parents ever. This "my dad can beat up your dad" mentality causes nationalists to ignore America's bumps and bruises

I see A LOT of this mentality! There are actually a few on the forum that hold this view