Why is it referred to as "The Great Patriotic War"?

[deccie]

deccie, please don't confuse the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 with the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) 

Yes, I'm sure the Poles can distinguish between which side killed them, Russian or German.
It may not be viewed as part of the "Great patriotic War" but it is ludicrous to suggest the Soviet  invasion of Poland and splitting it with Germany was not part of the (wider) Second World War.

[OlgaH]

I dispute this view as  Finland was included in the territories discussed in the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact

it was included as the differentiation of spheres of interests 

The Molotov/Ribbentrop pact came to end when Germany turned against USSR and after Hitler supported Finland in the forth Soviet- Finnish war.   

[OlgaH]

It may not be viewed as part of the "Great patriotic War" but it is ludicrous to suggest the Soviet  invasion of Poland and splitting it with Germany was not part of the (wider) Second World War.

It is not a part of the Great Patriotic War when Russians defended their land against German army, but it was the beginning of the World War II 

BTW the Soviet  invasion was after Germany  when Poland was occupied by Germany.

[deccie]

it was included as the differentiation of spheres of interests 

That's got to be the most interesting way to refer to invading other countries I Have ever seen...

The Molotov/Ribbentrop pact came to end when Germany turned against USSR and after Hitler supported Finland in the forth Soviet- Finnish war.   

Given the Soviet/Finnish situation I can understand them turning to Germany for support. Nor do I blame them for attacking the Soviet Union to try to get their territory back. Hoever, like I mentioned before the agreement between the Soviet Union and Germany is something quite different. I'm not sure you can say Germany "turned" on the USSR. I somehow doubt Stalin wouldn't have attacked Germany if he ever saw either poltical advantage or other reasons to do so. Especially given his other behavior.
(Especially in Eastern Europe post war)

[deccie]

BTW the Soviet  invasion was after Germany  when Poland was occupied by Germany.

So killing Poles at any date/time was excusable?

Next thing you'll be telling me is the Katyn wood massacre was perpetrated by Germans.

[deccie]

A Finnish opinion on their conflict/war with the USSR: http://www.kolumbus.fi/rastas/nyky/reasons_ww2.html.

Very interesting link. Thanks Sandro.

[OlgaH]

So killing Poles at any date/time was excusable?

Next thing you'll be telling me is the Katyn wood massacre was perpetrated by Germans.

Here I'm not agree with you 

What about Finland? USSR wanted back her territory and got it. You can find it in my previous posts 

[deccie]

What about Finland? USSR wanted back her territory and got it. You can find it in my previous posts 

Clearly the USSR took more than that. Otherwise why did the USSR cede some territory back to Finland back in the 1950's?

[OlgaH]

deccie,

about Khatyn you can read here and also on the official website of of the Khatyn Museum

[deccie]

Here I'm not agree with you 

Please clarify this statement Olga. I didn't understand you.

[OlgaH]

Clearly the USSR took more than that. Otherwise why did the USSR cede some territory back to Finland back in the 1950's?

Napoleonic plans of the comrade Stalin  There also is a version in Russian history that Stalin wanted include Finland in USSR.   

[deccie]

deccie,

about Khatyn you can read here and also on the official website of of the Khatyn Museum

I'm aware of the details - thanks.
I'm also aware there is still issues between Russia and poland over it even today.

[deccie]

My Point with these posts is that the idea that the Soviet Union was just a victim of Nazi Germany in the "Great Patriotic War" is a falsehood.

1. USSR invaded Finland.

2. USSR invaded Poland

3. USSR negotiated a pact between Nazi Germany and themselves "dividing up" Eastern Europe.

These are hardly the actions of an innocent bystander.

[deccie]

Napoleonic plans of the comrade Stalin  There also is a version in Russian history that Stalin wanted include Finland in USSR.   

It would not suprise me if that were true..

[OlgaH]

Please clarify this statement Olga. I didn't understand you.

I have never said that the killing of Poles was or is excusable 

From Khatyn website http://www.khatyn.by/en/tragedy/

The massacre occurred on March 22, 1943. Brutal fascists rushed into the village and encircled it. The inhabitants of the village did not know anything about the fact that in the morning a fascist motor convoy was attacked by fire on a motorway just 6 km away from Khatyn. As a result a German officer was killed. The inhabitants of Khatyn were innocent, however their death sentence had already been pronounced.
The tragedy of Khatyn is not just an occasional episode of this war. It is one of the thousand facts, which testify to the existence of the targeted genocide policy regarding the population of Belarus. And the Nazis were pursuing this policy during all those years of German occupation. Hundreds of similar disasters occurred within the three years (1941 - 1944) of the occupation of the Belorussian land.

[deccie]

My Point with these posts is that the idea that the Soviet Union was just a victim of Nazi Germany in the "Great Patriotic War" is a falsehood.

1. USSR invaded Finland.

2. USSR invaded Poland

3. USSR negotiated a pact between Nazi Germany and themselves "dividing up" Eastern Europe.

These are hardly the actions of an innocent bystander.

I would like to emphasise here I am primarily talking about the state rather than the Soviet people's.
The state is largely culpable in this. The people - not.

[deccie]

I have never said that the killing of Poles was or is excusable 

From Khatyn website http://www.khatyn.by/en/tragedy/

Actually, I am talking about the Katyn Wood massacre of Polish military by Red Army troops.

22,000 dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

[anjutka]

I would like to emphasise here I am primarily talking about the state rather than the Soviet people's.
The state is largely culpable in this. The people - not.

thanks god that my grandfather don't hear it..... you playing with fair

[OlgaH]

My Point with these posts is that the idea that the Soviet Union was just a victim of Nazi Germany in the "Great Patriotic War" is a falsehood.

1. USSR invaded Finland.

There were four armed conflicts (wars) between Soviet Russia and Finland.

The first war was started in January 1918 when Finnish troops invaded the territory of Eastern Karelia and was finished in October of 1920 with the signed Treaty of Tartu  between Finland and Soviet Russia.

The second war was started in November of 1921 when Finnish troops again invaded the territory of Karelia and was finished in March of 1922 with the signed agreement between Soviet Russia and Finland about the taking action on security of inviolability of Soviet R - Finnish border.

The third war was started in November 1939 when Soviet army invaded the territory of Finland and was finished in March 1940 with the signed Moscow Peace Treaty.

The fourth war was started in June of 1941 three days after beginning of Great Patriotic War. Finland declared war against USSR. The fourth war was finished in September of 1944 with the signed Moscow Armistice and formally with the Paris Peace Conference in 1947 when Finland acknowledged the territorial acquisition of USSR according to the Moscow Peace Treaty (sizeable part of South Karelia with Vyborg and Sortavala). Also Finland gave Russia back the region Petsamo, also handed over for the use for 50 years the territory and water space in Porkkala and committed itself to pay $300 million reparation to Russia.   

2. USSR invaded Poland

3. USSR negotiated a pact between Nazi Germany and themselves "dividing up" Eastern Europe.

These are hardly the actions of an innocent bystander.

That is a disgrace to Stalin's politics. And Russians payed the horrible price for his politic intrigues.

[anjutka]

This was discussed earlier here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7461.msg133274#msg133274.

thank you for this link as well.Also informative

[OlgaH]

Actually, I am talking about the Katyn Wood massacre of Polish military by Red Army troops.

22,000 dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

Sorry for misunderstanding. There is not any justification for the action of NKVD troika

[deccie]

thanks god that my grandfather don't hear it..... you playing with fair

Anjutka, if your Grandfather fought against the  Germans in the Second World War, I thank you for his service.

Mine did as well, against the Germans in the Middle East and later against the Japanese in New Guniea.

However, that said, it does not make the Soviet state - particularly Stalin - innocent about what happened.

[deccie]

That is a disgrace to Stalin's politics. And Russians payed the horrible price for his politic intrigues.

Absolutely! And part of the price paid was the number of dead fighting back the Germans.

[deccie]

There were four armed conflicts (wars) between Soviet Russia and Finland.

What you say is strictly correct but hides something. The territory - particularly Karelia has been under dispute and fought over for a VERY long time. and predates the modern state names you are using.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia

[OlgaH]

But also we should remember that the name of the tread is "Why is it referred to as "The Great Patriotic War"? 

The term Great Patriotic War (Великая Отечественная Война 1941-1945) is used only in the history of Russia