Where to Look ?

[Lily]

Russian women probably get no letters, that is why they are eager and interested.

Why? Money may have something to do with it. Russia is an expensive place; Moscow is the most expensive city in the world.

 

ambach123, if a woman gets no letters and then starts getting a few, she still will evaluate the man on a substance. She will probably not reply if she does not find the man interesting for her. That means, generally no woman would lower her criteria just because of the fact that few men are interested in her, unless she is very desperate and is driven by reasons other than love.

My guess would be that your sample is probably - I am cautious to say that - not representative and does not show a difference between perceptions of UW and RW. By and large, UW and RW are similar and should act similarly. Your sample is very occasional and individual from woman to woman.

IMHO your rejections could eventually be explained by your photos that show a rather sad man, and by your profile that is far from interesting. This is in case if you did not change your profile from what it looked like some time ago.

[Jumper]

ambach123-
I am hoping you take the RW's advice here to heart
, most of us OMB did not have the benefit of advice straight from the source.



 Times have changed a lot, or I must have had a very interesting profile at EM's..
i believe  i had over 1800 reponces in about 3 months.(it was disturbing actually)
maybe i just had a winning smile, and was clever and charming..LOL
or it was some strange email program glitch that sent all of EM's outgoing mail to me..?
(far more likely;) ) in reality many of those came in from variuos other sites and places as well,i did not keep track of where they came from well ( overwhelming)

In any case..
you do have a decent attitude in the closing line -
"you have to start somewhere"


Ultimately, thats the whole crux of the matter.
getting started.
in my mind,  most anywhere is fine.
as your first step on any path, leads to another and another.and hopefully more clarity with each step? where you start isnt as important as getting started.
 
the real decision is wether you want to step on this particular path or not..
once that decision is made.. and the big step taken-
the actual path (location or country)
is likely not nearly as important as simply keeping a level head while walking it.



for what its worth, despite being overwhelmed on EM's back in the "day",
i did not meet my wife thru them.(or anyone else i wrote)

I was working short term in eastern europe (near prague)and decided to visit
nearby Ukraine while there thru FD services..and contact a few RW there with thier help.
a fun time ,,and ended up meeting my wife on a day ,that she was just headed off to meet a foriegn man.

ultimately for me circumstance was far more of a provision than any of my efforts.
but like you said, *you have to start somewhere* if i hadnt started, i wouldnt have been in
the wrong place at the right time..




riv-
so THATs where youve been off to..
cant say i blame you..
I lived for two years in Brazil, and had a true blast.The country does have more than its share of  interesting scenery afterall and one of the most interesting and beautiful women a met there,was Eastern European (Polish)

[ambach123]

I will repeat this experiment at other sites I am a member like bride.ru etc.

However I tend to believe it would have the same results. I think the number of letters any woman receives is relevant. Laws of supply and demand are very fundamentals of our system.

As things are now I think that Russia is out of reach financially for average AM in this pursuit. Once again I quote the GQ article, in which an agency in Moscow states that " while a few years ago, she had a robust business, now AM have all but disappeared".

The process is so expensive, in more ways than one, you have to pardon me but I just don't see an average AM pursuing it in Russia as things stand now.

Most people on this board already have succeeded or are done with their search, in a different era and different times.

[BC]

I will repeat this experimen at other sites I am a member like bride.ru etc.

However I tend to believe it would have the same results. I think the number of letters any woman receives is relevant.

As things are now I think that Russia is out of reach financially for average AM in this pursuit. Once again I quote the GQ article, in which an agency in Moscow states that " while a few years ago, she had a robust business, now AM have all but disappeared".

The process is so expensive, in more ways than one, you have to pardon me but I just don't see an average AM pursuing it in Russia as things stand now.

Most people on this board already have succeeded or are done with their search, in a different era and different times.

Although I don't believe it takes a better cut of man (as in wealth) to pull off this venture, I do believe it takes a different cut of man.

This territory was likely never really fertile for the 'average' AM or WM.

A RW, regardless of her current location never talks only to herself.  She phones/meets many other RW and experiences are traded.  These experiences, good and bad, make it back to other FSUW women at the speed of light.

I think economics as a motivating factor may be the same as before, but that AM are faced with more mature and knowledgeable RW.

Simply put, they, as we, have learned to be picky.

[ambach123]

BC money is very fundamental in life and at least in our culture.

Everyone would like to own a million dollar home, only 1% of all Americans do, just an analogy, not related to this search. Being " different " is not going to get you a million dollar home.

There is a saying " you cut your coat according to the cloth you have ".

Without substantial amount of money, I don't see how an AM can pull it off in Russia in today's climate, again things are not the same as they were a few years ago.

[BC]

BC money is very fundamental in life and at least in our culture.

Everyone would like to own a million dollar home, only 1% of all Americans do, just an analogy, not related to this search. Being " different " is not going to get you a million dollar home.

There is a saying " you cut your coat according to the cloth you have ".

Without substantial amount of money, I don't see how an AM can pull it off in Russia in today's climate, again things are not the same as they were a few years ago.

I guess I could be rather crass and reply that it seems the path you are following is that "you get what you pay for".....

.. but...

If you can afford up front (as in cash) the costs to find, date and marry a woman, lets say somewhere between 25 and 50K..

..and can afford to maintain a family with a lifestyle that meets or exceeds her expectations,

..and can endure giving up bachelor spending/sharing attitudes,

..and have enough left over for trips home, maybe support for her parents if retired, and many many many other odds and ends..

You should be fairly well set as far as finances go.

Now time is another matter altogether..

How flexible is your workplace regarding vacation and extra time needed both before and after marriage?  Can you walk out during the day to take care of minor 'guess what happened now' incidents like fender benders, flooded washrooms, holding hands in doctors and dentists waiting rooms, etc etc, or even if she just feels lonely?

All in all, I really have a hard time chewing on the concept that a UW is that much 'cheaper' than RW with all aspects considered..  unless of course you really are willing to get what you pay for.

[ambach123]

BC, I could not have agreed with you more; you are absolutely correct.

My feeling is that most AM in this pursuit don't have that kind of money.

My research has shown that it is a lot cheaper to search in Ukraine than in Russia; and my point was that Russia has been filtered out from AM searching there.

It is based a large part on Agency reports and for whatever it is woth.

[BC]

I guess it would boil down to this...

Airfare.. maybe 50 or 100 bucks difference round trip

Visa costs 200 bucks

lodging, 10%, 20%?

food etc, 5%, 10%?

The difference is chump change IMHO.

Dating is the cheapest part of this journey.

[catzenmouse]

However I tend to believe it would have the same results. I think the number of letters any woman receives is relevant. Laws of supply and demand are very fundamentals of our system.

Relevant to what? She may receive a hundred letters from idiots and is still waiting for one good one or she may receive 5 letters from good men and is weighing the options to see which is the best fit for her. Guess I'm just not too bright because your logic here doesn't make any sense to me and really just sounds like the picking a puppy syndrome mixed with the white knight syndrome. Both are great if you're looking for a long term disaster.

As things are now I think that Russia is out of reach financially for average AM in this pursuit. Once again I quote the GQ article, in which an agency in Moscow states that " while a few years ago, she had a robust business, now AM have all but disappeared".

- and -

My research has shown that it is a lot cheaper to search in Ukraine than in Russia; and my point was that Russia has been filtered out from AM searching there.

It is based a large part on Agency reports and for whatever it is woth.

 - and -

The process is so expensive, in more ways than one, you have to pardon me but I just don't see an average AM pursuing it in Russia as things stand now.

You seem to be stuck on the "average" AM thing. The "average" AM will marry an "average" AW and never think about the FSU.

There is almost nothing average or normal or even sane for that matter in looking to the FSU to find your life partner.

What is this big cost difference? A visa? A few hundred more for a ticket further into the country? If that is an obstacle that would deter you from finding the ONE person that is a perfect fit for you then I would say there are bigger issues behind the scene that need to be addressed before searching for anyone in any country. It just doesn't make sense to eliminate an entire country for a few hundred bucks.

Buying into or believing what the agencies/personal helpers/etc. are telling you is akin to believing the used car salesman who tells you that this 76 Rambler was only driven to church on Sunday by a little old lady who never went more than 20 miles per hour. Thinking like this will find you on the way to a spectacular train wreck.

Most people on this board already have succeeded or are done with their search, in a different era and different times.

I'd say you were way off base on this assumption. Go check the thread that lists out the married members (at least most of them) and you will see that it is the minority of the membership is married/done with their search.

 

[groovlstk]

It is based a large part on Agency reports and for whatever it is woth.

You've been a member here long enough to know that most if not all agencies tell you what you want to hear as long as it fits their agenda of separating you from your cash. Why would you think they are candid about this specific point? 

FWIW, I am far from wealthy and I courted a Moscow woman who is now my wife. The "expenses" of my trips to Russia in comparison w/Ukraine? Well, I had to pay $175 for a visa to Russia and my rented apartment within the garden ring was $15 more per night than similar flats I rented in Ukraine. Like BC said, it's chump change. Even to your "average" AM.

There are plenty of solid reasons to search in Ukraine vs. Russia or vice versa, but cost of the venture is not one of them.

[Turboguy]

To me the advantage of searching in Russia is that so many men look at the ease of going to Ukraine and go there instead.  I have no problems with the idea that if someone is afraid of competion then they probably should not be doing this at all but I do think the choice ladies may get snapped up faster in Ukraine than in Russia.

[Faux Pas]

To me the advantage of searching in Russia is that so many men look at the ease of going to Ukraine and go there instead.  I have no problems with the idea that if someone is afraid of competion then they probably should not be doing this at all but I do think the choice ladies may get snapped up faster in Ukraine than in Russia.

This makes sense.

Actually for myself I avoided Ukraine and am not really sure why. Perhaps the earlier responses from Ukraine didn't appease me they way I thought they should. Early on when I was just looking into the possibilities (not very seriously I might add) all FSU countries were the same to me as far as the women were concerned. I never considered the "competition factor" in any country. But I never considered it with AW anyway. I've always gone after what I thought I wanted throwing caution to the wind. Sometimes good results, sometimes not so good.

ambach, I noticed you continually bring up your "research" in this thread. As Lily noted earlier your sample size is much much to small to hang your hat on any of it. One profile on one site or three profiles of the same man on three sites isn't enough to garner any kind of serious hypothesis or data. I haven't seen your profile but more likely than not, your results are based on the quality of it, rather than which women from which country responded favorably. The difference in cost to travel to one over the other as mentioned is chump change. Maybe one day less in Russia, over one day more in Ukraine. Your statements and "research" really isn't holding up to the litmus tests.

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach,  Do you date this way in the US, focusing on the bars or whatever where you will have the least amount of competition?  I never had to go the agency route, but I wouldn't give a darn about what country, what the average response rate is, etc.  All you need is one response by the right woman  The convenience or inconvenience of getting to her at some point becomes irrelevant.

Stop reading the GQ articles, stop listening to the agency hype, stop trying to research it all to death and start focusing on the profiles (not just the pictures).  This also includes your profile.  Does it represent the type of man your desired wife would be interested in responding to?  Have you even considered what that type of woman is looking for?  That may have more to do with the response rate than any statistics you might cite.

[KenC]

ambach,
All this posturing of where to look, how to look, where will you have the best odds or even who to use to help you, is all just the most preliminary preparation.  What really counts is that you get your butt on a plane and go to the fsu!  Preplanning only gets you s far and in all honesty, it isn't very far at all.  The reality of all this begins when you are face to face with a fsuw!  Because in the end, it is going to be a "boy meets girl" story.  Good luck.
KenC

[tim 360]

Ambach,  I would not put too much credence in GQ mag when it comes to the FSU in general and FSU women specifically.  You have received input from some pretty savy guys who have much more FSU experience than GQ or you.  Listen to them.  When you first posted you did not even know Eastern from Western Ukraine?  Your "research" seems rather flawed, don't you think? 

Your musings, reasonings, and rationale do not make very good sense and you should question your assumptions because they are the musings of a guy who is very new to this.  You may think you know so much...yet you know so little.  Nothing wrong with that.  You have much to learn and there is a wealth of good info if you search for it.

Your "research" and "experiments" which to you seem to think to be valid are rather weak attempts from which no accurate conclusion can be determined.  Your information bank is severely low on gas but full of hot air.  I would recommend you do more reading than posting your feeble opinions of which you have so little knowledge.  I am not trying to slam you, that would be very easy.  You do have much to learn...do some reading here.

[Lily]

Research amd experiments are as such very interesting and useful things, that's why I read with great interests about what results are here from this and that attempts.

The thing is however that in dating, and online acquaintances in particular, it seems not to show demonstrative results. It just does not work this way.

Laws of supply and demand are powerful engines, but here we have to do with attraction, that does hardly include any reasons, at least it shouldn't. Laws of attraction work differently than the former laws. To me, the results shown by ambach123 just tell that several UW happen not to be interested in him, but several RW found ambach123 a potentially interesting man. Just different very individual, very particular decision, nothing else. Probably the other time the results would be the opposite.

My guess would be that in case ambach123 would change his photos and texts, the results might be dramatically different  but again, it is an individual decision of a woman.

[Blues Fairy]

To me, the results shown by ambach123 just tell that several UW happen not to be interested in him, but several RW found ambach123 a potentially interesting man.

My guess is that since there are more Russian than Ukrainian ladies on EM, it's easier to run into a Russian scammer, especially if one fishes for the most good-looking specimens.  Let's see what happens with these "interested" RW in a few letters from now.

[Jumper]

ambach123 said

My research has shown that it is a lot cheaper to search in Ukraine than in Russia; and my point was that Russia has been filtered out from AM searching there.

is that a typo? as it contradicts what i think you meant to say ?
(that Ukraine was filteetred out by to many visiters?)

in any case Russia is a vast country and has numerous large cities,
it is similar to comparing the entirity of the USA ,to the one state of ohio..
"fished out"  seems an odd term for either any those places..
Ohio, the US, Russia or Ukraine.

I think you are over evaluating some articles written for entertainment value and a few randome responces.
and also ignoring the simple fact that no matter how many responces you get from a particular ,country,city, or agency..
you only need to meet one perso nwho you really click with.
and she could be
from  a city you get 53 replies from , or a city you only have 2 or 3.
human realtionships, fate,and the tricky thing we call love
are not easily evaulated and dissected into nice cut and dried "facts"??


as fars as the times changing, yes they have.

as far as a average WM being able to find a quality woman with a *genuine* interest
 in marrying him..i think the odds have  stayed the same..

hey fish where you want..
Russia or Ukraine,(whats wriong with Belarus or lithuinia?)
 but to think that economics driven areas for marriage help the odds of sincerity in that marriage,  is not a good foundation for your thoughts on international dating?


I'm fairly average.. lol
and  would not find it anymore difficult today to meet and marry a RW in Ukraine, or Russia than a few years ago. I'm no real catch either- but the keys are being honest, sincere and a person whom women in general consider an interesting  man of good marriage material..
 I'm not being cocky or over confident, i recognize the difficulties of meeting someone truly special (to each other ),
but those long odds exist anywhere on the planet.
In the end, being the right person is as important as meeting the right person.

and putting yourself in a position to meet quality people whom you find interesting,
will obviously increase the odds of meeting that one right individual.

If you are a good man,an interesting man with a decent sense of humor, and finiancially secure enough to emark solidly on this endeavor.
Then there are plenty orf RW that would have an interest i nmeeting you to see if something else might develope.

and regardless of some GQ article,,or randome responces
there is NOT enough difference in MOST of Russia or Ukraine's cities to change your results.

Fate would have far more of a hand in that.


but if looking for a traveled path..
The fact remains there are more RW in Russia,there  are more large provincial cities, there are far more cities that western men are not common,and as far as being "different"
and interesting because of that in its own right.. you might stand out there a bit more..
(anywhere away from st pete or moscow)

Personally I really wouldnt base much on those things though!!!!!!!
and would go whereever  i found someone interesting,
 wether they lived in Kiev ,kharkov,minsk, Moscow ,,st pete ,vlad,, etc etc

again good luck..


 

[Jumper]

That's a good point Blues Fairy
 
I know your passion is music,,
but are you
:::::::::::sprinkling some anti scammer dust::::::::::::::
around here to help the newbies?
LOL
 
 

[Ronnie]

Blues Fairy raises a point that I too thought of while reading about the "experiment".  Scammers will always answer an unsolicited letter.  Not to say there are more or less scammers in either country - I just wanted to point out the flaw in the thinking that Ukraine is flooded with AM because of higher costs in Russia.  As has been pointed out, the cost difference is very minor - $58 difference between Moscow and Kiev leaving from LAX.  I know that calling Moscow or Pitr is cheaper than calling any city in Ukraine so there go the savings!

I simply think that time lost getting visa and getting it registered is not insignificant.  Back when Ukraine required a visa and my double entry was used up, I lost a full day in Warsaw getting another visa when I decided to reverse course when I left Ukraine and return for another couple weeks.  One lost day out of 14 is not insignificant.

[ambach123]

Thanks for the responses.

It is true that I don't know much about this pursuit. I can hardly tell where these countries are, I freely admit.

The advise to go there is a valid one. I had put a floor of ten acquaintances before I leave, I am already up to five. All in the Kiev area. I am well off so that helps.

I don't believe in writing long letters. A few letters, one or two phone calls, and then a meeting.

Russia has visa requirements, and that is not insignificant; I looked at the application, it asked for all kinds of personal information, where I lived for ten years, who my past employers were etc. etc. I am uncomfortable answering them, the maiden name and country of birth of my ex wife. I never had an employer, I always worked for myself.

If I feel this way, I am sure there are others who would feel the same way.

About the GQ article, there was a thread about it, the consensus was that this was an accurate description. For lack of a better review of the pursuit, I have to take that one as true.

[BC]

Russia has visa requirements, and that is not insignificant; I looked at the application, it asked for all kinds of personal information, where I lived for ten years, who my past employers were etc. etc. I am uncomfortable answering them, the maiden name and country of birth of my ex wife. I never had an employer, I always worked for myself.

If I feel this way, I am sure there are others who would feel the same way.

Just wait till you get to immigration paperwork...

BTW, what is your prime motivation for a FSU woman?  Are you still dating at home, or have you given up completely?

Remember the GQ article was written in totally different context.. Aren't planning on going to a social are ya?

[KenC]

Thanks for the responses.

It is true that I don't know much about this pursuit. I can hardly tell where these countries are, I freely admit.

The advise to go there is a valid one. I had put a floor of ten acquaintances before I leave, I am already up to five. All in the Kiev area. I am well off so that helps.

I don't believe in writing long letters. A few letters, one or two phone calls, and then a meeting.

Russia has visa requirements, and that is not insignificant; I looked at the application, it asked for all kinds of personal information, where I lived for ten years, who my past employers were etc. etc. I am uncomfortable answering them, the maiden name and country of birth of my ex wife. I never had an employer, I always worked for myself.

If I feel this way, I am sure there are others who would feel the same way.

About the GQ article, there was a thread about it, the consensus was that this was an accurate description. For lack of a better review of the pursuit, I have to take that one as true.

ambach,
You are being overly paranoid about the visa questions IMO.  You are correct that most of us here thought the GQ article was right on the money.  I also agree with your approach of a few letters or conversations before meeting in person.

There is only so much due diligence you need to do before you jump on a plane.  As long as you have a few women to meet beforehand and have the possibility of meeting more through a good back up plan, you are good to go in my book.  You could research this thing to death for the next 12 months and you still would not know more than if you spent a week over there.  Just go!
KenC

[groovlstk]

Russia has visa requirements, and that is not insignificant; I looked at the application, it asked for all kinds of personal information, where I lived for ten years, who my past employers were etc. etc. I am uncomfortable answering them, the maiden name and country of birth of my ex wife. I never had an employer, I always worked for myself.

Read BC's line above, if you feel uncomfortable documenting so much personal information you'll run screaming into the night when you see what you must provide should you ever decide to do a K1 

If I feel this way, I am sure there are others who would feel the same way.

Yes, and those are the dreamers and keyboard romeos and guys who ask FSU women to come visit them in the US because they don't have the seeds to leave their own comfy perch.

[DKMM]

Having been to both places recently, there is a sharp difference.  Ukraine is full of old farts chasing after rather poor somewhat white trash girls.  Hohlushkas on average are not as refined as Moskali.  That said, Ukrainians are more open to moving here so pick your poison, do you want difficulty on the search stage or further into the getting to know her stage?

Stick with Ukraine its easier.  If you can't find a decent girl in that country, you probably cannot find a decent on in Russia.