Filing for K-3

[Ronnie]

Well, as it turns out, on December 22, 2003 Ukraine acceded to the 1961 Hague convention.  My episode was a few months prior to that.. That's why I had to go to Washington DC.  Now, as Scott points out, that is no longer necessary...(it was, believe me, or I never would have gone to the expense and trouble).

As would be expected when such things change, there is a great deal of confusion in the aftermath.  I suspect that many RAGS officers are going by old procedures, some are up to speed on the new ones and still others are so confused at the change they just wing it!

Here are the the authoritative links that should guide anyone going through the process:

http://www.ukrchicago.com/consular/english/authent_en.html
http://kiev.usembassy.gov/amcit_marriage_civil_eng.html

So back to the original issue:  Should one hire an attorney in doing the I-130/K-3..  In most cases, yes.  K-1. IMO most cases don't warrant it.

The question that begs to be asked is; why do anything other than the K-1?  It's streamlined, easy to follow, and relatively hassle free.  One can do, and many have done, a church ceremony (unofficial) in the lady's home city with family in attendance just before leaving for the states on a K-1.  If there are children over 18 but under 21, K-1 is the only option that allows the child to immediately travel with his/her parent.

If Ravens finds that he did in fact, legally marry in Ukraine, which it appears is not the case, but who knows at this point, then his wedding in Jamaica would be just a renewing ceremony I suppose.  If not, then his official certificate from Jamaica is the one he will go by when he does the K-1.

The sideline to this story appears to be that Ravens didn't do the K-1 because he thought (mistakenly) that he would have a problem with proving financial support.  Yet it appears to me he has no less a requirement when he files the I-30/K2 forms.  The I-864 is still required eventually.

[ScottinCrimea]

Misleading perhaps, but I do believe I added enough qualifiers to my statement to clarify my intent. Ravens stated he was wandering around Ukraine looking for an Apostille, like he was searching for the wizard of Oz. Ronnie corrected him twice about the fact that an Apostille was a document certification, not a person, and when he seemed still not to "get it" Ronnie elaborated by specifically illustrating the Apostille process. His illustration was correct, and I backed that up as this information is useful to others who may be going through the process where an Apostilled document is required, even if Ravens did not have that specific need right now.

Jet, I fail to see any qualifiers that would explain your statement that the process that Ronnie outlined, and which he now admits is outdated, is 100% correct.  I can understand Ronnie's mistake, as he went through the process prior to Ukraine's acceptance of the Hague convention.  I think his mistake was to give the incorrect process as a given rather than what was required of him over 5 years ago.  maybe I misunderstand, but you seem to continue to agree with the process Ronnie originally mentioned is still current with your statement that, "His illustration was correct."  According to quotations from some official websites and links to others provided in this thread, his illustration was NOT correct.  Perhaps you could provide your sources that show that Ronnie's illustration was indeed correct.

Ronnie,  I have no doubt the process you described was correct at the time.  As much as Ukraine has a hard time keeping up with changes in the law, I have a hard time believing that, 5 years later, many RAGS still use the same procedures.  Even in a little backwater like Simferopol, they were very clear on the requirements. Maybe if the town were so small and out of the way that they hadn't had to do an international marriage in over 5 years this might be possible, but unlikely.

The reason I am being somewhat of a hardnose on this is for two reasons:  First, it's too important an issue to let any incorrect information be let go and not challenged.  Secondly, and Ronnie, I'm only picking on you here because it's convenient, we need to be careful giving out "official" information based on our personal experiences without checking to see if it is the standard procedure, especially if it was several years ago, or without qualifying it by stating that it was only your experience and providing the date.  Now I'm sure if I look back I have probably done the same, so I'm not holding myself up as the ultimate example, but this point came to my mind as something we should be more careful with, especially as it involves the legal processes involved in all of this.

Now, I'm going to turn your question back on you.  Why not do the k-3 instead of the K-1?  The K-1 may make things easier on the front end (that is debatable) but the K-3 is much easier on the back end with no worries about AOS, etc.  Actually, as far as paperwork, my CR-1 required the same as the K-1 so I don't understand your comment that a K-1 is relatively hassle-free but the K-3  is not.  I'm also not sure about your statement that a child between the ages of 18 and 21 can travel immediately with their parent if included in the K-1.  The US government website says the following regarding derivative status for a child, "The stepparent/stepchild relationship must be created before the child reaches the age of 18."  If this fits with what I understand, if you are not married before the child is 18, they can't be included in the visa petition for a fiancee/spouse.  This isn't relevant to my situation because my step-daughter was 14 when we married, so I haven't spent a whole lot of time exploring the question.  Perhaps you could provide some clarifying sources because for wome here, this could be a very big issue.

[mendeleyev]

Scott, I apologize for my confusion.  I didn't see where we had differed and therein was my confusion. 

We also agree about an Apostille being from "a Secretary of State" (see my comments) as opposed to a Washington DC office.

Thanks Ronnie for getting us back on track.

...

PS to Scott:  I know you love the Crimea area and yesterday Russia floated a 'trial balloon' regarding that area of Ukraine being returned to Russia.  Today Kyiv responded by barring Moscow mayor Yuri Luzhkov, who voiced those views, from traveling to Ukraine.

[Ronnie]

Scott,
A couple things...
The change in the procedure following the December 22, 2003 date seems to have had the practical effect of not requiring the apostille at all by the US State Dept.  However it does appear that the State Secretary of State must legalize the document, i.e. divorce decree.  I simply was ignorant of the change and for that I apologize. 

Ravens claimed, incorrectly, that documents from the US were not acceptable, which is untrue in fact, but according to his unique experience, may have been true insofar as the RAGS office told him, or his fiancee' misunderstood, or who knows?  We don't even know what "paperwork" he was referring to...we assume a letter of non-impediment to marriage. 

I tried to be precise insofar as a divorce decree is concerned as opposed to Ravens' general statements about "paperwork."  But again, I apologize for my ignorance of the change and on behalf of those who agreed.  I'm sure we were all unaware of the 2003 change.

As to K1/K2 vs I-130 - They are different animals entirely.  What you quoted about derivative status of children in inapplicable to the fiancee visa program. 

Yes, it is very important that AM and RW understand the difference if there is a child of 18-20 years of age.  If they get married abroad, as we almost did, the benefits of the K1/K2 program vanish.  BTW it was the consular office in Kyiv who alerted me to this distinction and saved us from making a dreadful mistake that would have left my wife's 19 year old son ineligible to join us in the US for a very long time.

BTW the fiancee and her children are not considered immediate relatives under the sections of law you quoted.  They have their own program which is a hybrid between immigrant and nonimmigrant.  It's officially non immigrant because without the culminating marriage the alien(s) have no ability to remain in the US.  But it's not a pure nonimmigrant because it is treated for all intents and purposes as an immigration regime which culminates in the marriage instead of beginning with the marriage.
 
As WmIII says, it's it an anomaly that the children of spouse must be under 18 to get a visa while the children of fiancee need only be under 21.  He thinks the age should be 18 for all.  I think 21 is a more appropriate age limit.  Right now, the government sees it both ways.

[ScottinCrimea]

Ronnie,  I think we are in agreement on things.  The issue regarding derivative status for children under a K-1 is confusing.  If you read the government website it states the following: "The child of a fiancé(e) may receive a derivative K-2 visa from his/her parent’s fiancé(e) petition. You, the American citizen petitioner, must make sure that you name the child in the I-129F petition. After the marriage of the child’s parent and the American citizen, the child will need a separate form  I-485  Application to Register Permanent Residence or to Adjust Status. The child may travel with (accompany) the K-1 parent/fiancé(e) or travel later (follow-to-join) within one year from the date of issuance of the K-1 visa to his/her parent. A separate petition is not required if the children accompany or follow the alien fiancé(e) within one year from the date of issuance of the K-1 visa. If it is longer than one year from the date of visa issuance, a separate immigrant visa petition is required.

Remember that in immigration law a child must be unmarried. The stepparent/stepchild relationship must be created before the child reaches the age of 18Here is their definition of "child':  "Child: Unmarried child under the age of 21 years.  A child may be natural born, step or adopted.  If the child is a stepchild, the marriage between the parent and the American citizen must have occurred when the child was under the age of 18.   If the child is adopted, he/she must have been adopted with a full and final adoption when the child was under the age of 16, and the child must have lived with and been in the legal custody of the parent for at least two years.  An orphan may qualify as a child if he/she has been adopted abroad by an American citizen or if the American citizen parent has filed an immediate-relative (IR) visa petition for him/her to go to the United States for adoption by the American citizen.

Every other source I find says only that the child must be under 21 years of age.  So it seems that the application of the rule is different than what is outlined in the official site.

[Ronnie]

Hi Scott,
As you noted, the difinition of a child for immigration purposes in not the same as used in common speech.  For instance your wife can have a daughter who is 16 but married and guess what.  She's not a "child"  But an unmarried daughter 20 years old IS a child under INA definitions.  A stepchild is a child if under 21 but only if the marriage that created the step parent/child relationship occured before the child's 18th birthday.

I had to argue all these definitions in my suit against the USCIS last year.  The question is whose child is he/she?  If you married the mother before her child was 18 then the child becomes your child too.  Otherwise, if the child was already 18  when you got married, the child can never be your child per immigration law.  But remains the child of the alien mother until marriage or reaching the age of 21 whichever comes first. 

My suit against the USCIS was not so much the definition of child but when the test of being a child is applied in the K2  and AOS context.  The USCIS has been arguing that AOS must be completed by them before the child reaches 21 or they loose their right to permanent residence.  I argued that the law only says the child must be under 21 to obtain the K2 visa.

The District Court judge agreed  - see Verovkin v. Still...you can google it or see my thread on "K2s don't age out.." in the visa section of this forum. The government didn't appeal the decision and my now 23 year old stepson is awaiting his court-ordered greencard.

[Jumper]

Ravens-
I married in Ukraine , and filed DCF.
(at the time the US consulate handling those I130's  was in Wasaw poland,
now th eintervies perocess for vidsa like the K1 are handlied in Kiev,,
and i am not famalier if they allow DCF filing of the I130 currently but that would be easy to find out)

member GON ( as well as myself and others) outlined 1,2,3 exactly the procedure at that time,,(it wouldnt vary greatly today)
and what you did need ,or did not need to take with you , and the exact things you needed to do..  once you arrived there to be married. outlining adddresses of the placed youd seen tio go, th efees,,the phone numbers and contacts..ertc.
 .using the search engine here beforehand,  might have really helped ease some of your frustration there, but thats water under the bridge.

the point is there are outlines of exactly how to file for your wifes immigration on various sites, reed them all and decide if  its better to do yourself ,or hire an attorney..inm yourspecific situation.?
 
as far as the letter of non-impediment to marry,
it is a fairly straight foward thing,for a single AM who has never been married.
it consisted of going to the US embassy(kiev), swearing your *status* to the consulate ,then taking that form to the Ukranian ministry of foreign affairs(kiev)
for approval/translation /apositle /stamping etc..

ZAGS then obviuolsy has a few additional requirements , but those are pretty easy and straightfoward as well.

once officialy married filing the petition for alien relative, should be
 fairly straight foward simply from reading the USCIS website.
and thier are websites ou tthere to help you.

Obviuosly an attorney is worth his weight in gold ,if your situation is not straight forward.


in our case-
 it was simple and straightforward.
neither of us had ever been married, we both spoke good english.
we had complied with all requirements of being legally married in
Ukraine at zags and a civil ceremony.and had officially translated and apostilled
all documents that were needed before, and after the marriage..
there were no children in the immigration equation.
we had a clear and long term relationship, with more than all the needed proofs.
and she had both an internal and international passsport.

if i had used an attorney i would have supplied him with exactly the same information
and documents  that i filed anyway.
the required immigration forms,, and outlined procedure...on the government site,
 was more simple than my taxes.



i have to be honest though, your case  seems a little  convaluted,
 and i can't decide if you even have an officially translated and apostilled, ukrainian marriage certificate in your hands or not.
The originals are of course in Ukranian, you will need an official translation into english afterall.

It just seems that  you are indeed married..to an alien/foriegner  ..
that as a US citizen you want to file for family immigration..
the rest is cloudy , as you either dint understand the procedure there, or cant express it well here...

and so  i'd advise a good immigration  attorney.




medeleyev-
nice photos..
i remember all of them..they could have come from our wedding lol
thanks for the memories

[beachcomber556]

CR-1 is definately the way to go.  At least it was for us.  And no lawyers either.  Talk about scammers!!!!  I was living and working in Iraq when Vika and I met, courted, and eventually married.  We did the Direct Consular Filing in Kiev for a CR-1.  It was actually very simple.  If you can read and write English fluently, and are not adverse to following directions, you can do this.  She had her SSAN # within 2 weeks of our simultaneous arrival home, and her 2 year green card arrived about a month later.  Every one of her Russian friends were stunned at how quick everything happened for us.  Think about it. 

[ScottinCrimea]

beachcomber,  That was basically my experience with the CR-1 as well.  I don't know how anyone can say that the K-1 is much easier, because other than the marriage certificate and a few extra boxes to fill in on the petition, the documentation required is the same.  Not haveing to deal with the AOS once she arrives is definitely worth those few extra boxes.

[apple47]

  My observation as well.  Same forms with a different number on them.

                                                            ...Larry

[LiveFromUkraine]

I am going through the k3 process right now.  In fact, my wife has her interview next week in Kiev.  We did a dcf.  I was under the impression that a dcf is only permitted when the husband has been living in her country for 6 months or more.





Thomas

[Jumper]

Thomas-
i do not pretend to know the current regulations and rules.

i never lived in Ukraine.
 i did DCF file the *petition for alien relative* ( for my wife, we married in ukraine -dneper)

At that time (5 years ago) DCFs were allowed for Ukraine ,
and they were handled by the US emabassy in Warsaw,and the interviews where done there as well.

While i could have easily personally taken the packets/documents directly to warsaw to fiole them, and speed up the process a bit, (about one month).
 I sent our packets to warsaw, thru the US embassy in Kiev.
As we were not in any big hurry.
The US embassy in Kiev ,,at that time ,offered this fowarding  service,
and compiled all such documents ,and forwarded them *officially* to warsaw,
 once each month.
 
now despite intentionally adding a slight bit of time,
our filing proceessed thru at a very fast pace.
(and so did our friend ,member here *GON's*)

Timeline-
(as near as i can remember ,as youd have to dig up my old post in "immigration section")

We married in late august.
I prepared all the needed docs and turned them into the US embassy in kiev the second  week of september.
US Embassy in Warsaw recieved them ,, and notified me in early october.
She received her *packet* from warsaw second week of october.
went to get the med /exams etc in kiev.. turned all in,quickly.
 and recieved a notice a short time later for a november interview in warsaw.
It was barely enough time to get her passport changed to her new name.
She easily passed the interview.
but had somehow not noticed that they had mispelled her new last name in the international passport ,
(though her new internal ukrainian passport had the proper spelling)
so while her visa was granted, early november-
they would not stamp her passport.. with the mispelling (one letter,a letter Ukranian doesnt have and doesnt translate well)
she flew home got a correction in the passport,,and flew back and got it stamped.
in a week or two.

Total time,even with not hurrying the filing, and the small ukrainian tranlation of spelling  snafu, was incredibly quick. it would be about 90-120 days..
 and we were not trying to hurry things, as we had her relocation planned for late spring to mid summer anyway.

GON and his wife were married that september ,,he filed shortly after i did,
and as fate would have it, (they live close to us)
my wife ,and his wife ,had thier interviews on the same day in Warsaw.   
so the timeline was a bit faster for them even.

back then, K-1'a were taking a very very,,um VERY,
 long time to process as they were being done stateside.

Thomas you are not in the US now right?

i thought you were living abroad,in ukraine?

If so--
 why would you file a K3?
that doesnt seem the proper filing..for your situation..
(but maybe i have your situation wrong)

I thought that a K3 was based on the
"hardship" on a family of being seperated ,for long periods of time,
while awaiting the approval /processing of an already filed  (I-130)?.

my impression is that you first had to file a (I 130)?.
then file a K3 showing that the "known" long delay times in processing a (I 130)?
 thru your USCIS service center, is creating a hardship that entitles you approval of a K3.

i could be way wrong though, its been a long time since i read any of the immigration regs..

[LiveFromUkraine]

Thomas you are not in the US now right?

i thought you were living abroad,in ukraine?

If so--
 why would you file a K3?
that doesnt seem the proper filing..for your situation..
(but maybe i have your situation wrong)

I thought that a K3 was based on the
"hardship" on a family of being seperated ,for long periods of time,
while awaiting the approval /processing of an already filed  (I-130)?.

my impression is that you first had to file a (I 130)?.
then file a K3 showing that the "known" long delay times in processing a (I 130)?
 thru your USCIS service center, is creating a hardship that entitles you approval of a K3.

i could be way wrong though, its been a long time since i read any of the immigration regs..

Hi Aj, yep I am still in Ukraine.  We did a I-130DCF.  We are married so we had to go with the k3 spousal visa.  Otherwise it would have been a k1 fiance visa.  I think the k1 is fiance and k3 is spouse.  William or someone else can correct me if I am wrong.  Either way we dropped off the I 130 before we left for India and they contacted us to set up an interview 2 weeks late.  It was Christmas time and it took longer for my background check to finish.

Pretty fast processing doing a direct file.  If we hadn't gone to India for 3 months we would already be in the states.  It only takes about a month once you file the paperwork.


Thomas

[Jumper]

Thomas-
hope all is well there!   (my wife is back there visting)

and yes
william or muck can straighten us out..lol
Two guys that ravens should trust and listen to,when asking immigration questions.


but just so you know, i filed DCF I130.
there was no need to file K3, and i never did so.
The I 130 is the petition for alien relative, if it is approved/granted ,
your alien relative  gets a stamp/ visa in her international passport,
and will get her GC in about two weeks after arrival and registration in the USA
(and SSN soon after)


My understanding is the K3 visa, is something you generally  apply for,
if you are in one of those "long indefinite" holding patterns for a filing(I 130?) review,

as in the past (and maybe in the present)
the time period before your (I 130?) filing  would even be reviewed might be  well over a year!!

so the K3 is a specific purpose visa ,
that if/when granted -
 allows your family member to come and "conditionally" stay/reside  with you in the US,  while awaiting the procesing of the original filing of "petition for alien relative"

I beliueve this is the reason for the AOS scenerios,of K1 and K3 visa holders?
(the K1 after marriage, status  needs adjusted,
 while the K3 being conditional..after the I 130 has been approved , it needs adjusted?)

I just have never heard of someone DCF filing a I130,, then filing a K3.
as it is never needed since of the quickness of that DCF process?

and it would likely never  be granted anyway,,
 as its original intent was to meet the needs of a  "family hardship act"???
 that prevented the government from seperating families for long periods of time ,by gub'ment red tape and unreasonable timeframes in the review of thier pending cases.


i could certainly be wrong.
i often am,,ask my wife!
LOL




 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Thomas-
hope all is well there!   (my wife is back there visting)

and yes
william or muck can straighten us out..lol
Two guys that ravens should trust and listen to,when asking immigration questions.


but just so you know, i filed DCF I130.
there was no need to file K3, and i never did so.
The I 130 is the petition for alien relative, if it is approved/granted ,
your alien relative  gets a stamp/ visa in her international passport,
and will get her GC in about two weeks after arrival and registration in the USA
(and SSN soon after)


My understanding is the K3 visa, is something you generally  apply for,
if you are in one of those "long indefinite" holding patterns for a filing(I 130?) review,

as in the past (and maybe in the present)
the time period before your (I 130?) filing  would even be reviewed might be  well over a year!!

so the K3 is a specific purpose visa ,
that if/when granted -
 allows your family member to come and "conditionally" stay/reside  with you in the US,  while awaiting the procesing of the original filing of "petition for alien relative"

I beliueve this is the reason for the AOS scenerios,of K1 and K3 visa holders?
(the K1 after marriage, status  needs adjusted,
 while the K3 being conditional..after the I 130 has been approved , it needs adjusted?)

I just have never heard of someone DCF filing a I130,, then filing a K3.
as it is never needed since of the quickness of that DCF process?

and it would likely never  be granted anyway,,
 as its original intent was to meet the needs of a  "family hardship act"???
 that prevented the government from seperating families for long periods of time ,by gub'ment red tape and unreasonable timeframes in the review of thier pending cases.


i could certainly be wrong.
i often am,,ask my wife!
LOL




 

You might be right AJ.  I probably have it all mixed up.  Luckily they sent us all the documents that need to be filled out.  We are going through it this weekend.  Either case it should be pretty easy.  My wife has been visiting some forums and it sounds like they ask 3 questions and then tell the women they got approved.  I haven't been home for close to a year and a half.  I am really missing Mexican food.   


I think that is a wife thing.  My wife doesn't know how I was able to live without her telling me what to do. lol  Too bad I am a stubborn mule just like she is.   

[bgreed]

Current regulations state that to file a DCF you have to reside in Ukraine for at least six months prior to filing the I-130.  Didn't use to be this way.

The K-3 has become somewhat of a dead horse as the processing times have become just as long as for a CR-1 visa so it's really not worth it to file for the K-3 wait just as long and still have to adjust status after approval of the I-130 just like you have to do with the K-1.

Of course USCIS sees it more fit to make sure that fiance's get here faster than family members.  Recently I have seen k-1 visas approved in as little as 90days   We received our NOA1 on February 16 it was touched on February 24 and has shown no action since and of course we still have NVC to go through.  Yeah it's a system that really makes sense

[dneid]

William, I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. 



Thomas

LMAO!!! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Yep, it looks like I was wrong again.  I am going the cr-1 way, not the k3 visa.  Great news for us.   



Thomas

[Ronnie]

I hesitate to comment further...

Okay, I'm ready now. 

It's never been a question between the CR-1 (spousal immigration) visa and the K-3.  You can't get a K-3 unless you have filed for the CR-1 by submitting an I-130 form.   In AJ's case, at that time, the US embassy in Kyiv announce that there would be no need for their DCF filers (I-130) to also apply for K3 because the CR-1 would likely be approved faster than a K-3. 

The K-3 was created by the LIFE act to allow spouses of US citizens and their children (K4) to wait in the US as non-immigrants until the CR-1 was approved.  As a practical matter, or so it appears, if a spouse receives her K3 and uses it to enter the US, she must apply for EAD and Adjustment of status, in the same way a K-1 would.

What I don't know is what happens when/if the CR-1 (immigration visa/green card) is approved before the adjustment of status is approved.  Anyone care to comment?

[Ravens9273]

Actually I have a question.

When filing for a CR-1 or K-3 is it best for wife to change her last name to yours before or after?

[BC]

Actually I have a question.

When filing for a CR-1 or K-3 is it best for wife to change her last name to yours before or after?

I would imagine it can get tricky..

Our experiences here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1903.msg37861;topicseen#msg37861

[bgreed]

Ronnie, you have to file a I-130 no matter if it is a K-1, K-3 or CR-1 that you want in the end.  It is the filing of the I-129F that will determine K-1 or K-3.  If you file the I-130 alone the result will be a CR-1 type visa.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, you have to file a I-130 no matter if it is a K-1, K-3 or CR-1 that you want in the end.  It is the filing of the I-129F that will determine K-1 or K-3.  If you file the I-130 alone the result will be a CR-1 type visa.

bgreed, I think most guys here already are aware that there is no I-130 filed at any time when a K1 is the vehicle for admission and permanent residence.