Dealing with the in laws

[Anton]

Hi.  I need some assistance and advice.

I have a friend (Seriously) who tried to get his girl back home and had problems with the in laws and ex who have been rather over the top.  Problem is there is a daughter from a previous relationship and the ex has teamed up with the in laws and are trying to stop the daughter getting permission to leave Ukraine.

My friend tied to the BS and games decided to marry his grill and they had a great wedding last year., which the parents did not attend

Well the hostility and games continue.

Problem is he can not secure travel documents until the dispute of the daughter is resolved.,  She is 5 years old.


This is becoming a nightmare from hell.  Both husband and we are committed to work this through but it seams to be getting no where..

Has anyone else experienced this sport of problem and do you have serious advice as to hope best proceed.  I would appreciate informed information and not second guessing.

I have to keep it all hush huish and as such have created a new account to try and protect the idenity of my friend.

Any helkpful suggestions welcomed.



 

[roykirk]

I know we've got at least one attorney in the group, but the only suggestion I can offer is that your friend needs an immigration attorney.  This sounds very complicated, especially with a kid involved.  The woman is obviously an adult, so I don't see how her family could keep her from doing anything she wanted to do, but I'm no expert either.

[BC]

Who has official custody of the child now?  Wife, her ex, or both jointly? - probably doesn't matter if the country issuing an immigration visa requires consent of the other parent.. This usually means that the two countries have agreements under the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

The Convention mandates return of any child who was “habitually resident” in a contracting nation immediately before an action that constitutes a breach of custody or access rights.

Sounds like this can and should only be settled in court if the parties involved cannot come to an agreement.

[Jet]

I have a friend (Seriously) who tried to get his girl back home and had problems with the in laws and ex who have been rather over the top.  Problem is there is a daughter from a previous relationship and the ex has teamed up with the in laws and are trying to stop the daughter getting permission to leave Ukraine.

My friend tied to the BS and games decided to marry his grill and they had a great wedding last year., which the parents did not attend

First, we need more information.
*Has the girl received any indications of possible violence from the Ex husband?
*Shared custody or not?
*Does the Ex husband spend any (no matter how insignificant) quality time with the child?
*child support ordered? If so, any paid?
*Any indications the Ex is looking for financial compensation for his signature?
*Does the Ex have any leverage over the parents (IE is he in a position to cause them pain, distress, social or financial hardship)?
*Is he "the Ex" because he left, or because she kicked him out?

Well the hostility and games continue.

Problem is he can not secure travel documents until the dispute of the daughter is resolved.,  She is 5 years old.


This is becoming a nightmare from hell.  Both husband and we are committed to work this through but it seams to be getting no where..

Has anyone else experienced this sport of problem and do you have serious advice as to hope best proceed.  I would appreciate informed information and not second guessing.

How long have "the hostility and games" gone on now? I ask because we went through a very similar situation and after everything else, the thing that most helped us reach a resolution, was TIME. It's very difficult for a person to stay actively "pissed off" over long periods of time, and that in itself will wear him down quite a bit. I recall arguments with Liliya's Ex where he asserted that little Kolya (3 at the time) would end up being too soft if he grew up in America. That he needed a heaping helping of adversity, and self sacrifice to grow into a strong man one day, and his new life was just not going to be hard enough to do the trick. So, how the hell does one counter an argument like that  ???

[mendeleyev]

One of the dangers men face in international marriage is in assuming that her culture is just like ours in the West.  Here we see couples marry against the parents wishes and sometimes those unions go on to long term success with the extended family gradually coming to at least partial terms with what the couple did.

Guys make the same unsafe assumptions in thinking that western style "dating" is common in the East.  And thats just what it is--the East, where it wasn't that long ago that arranged marriages were the norm and still today, extended family, and especially parents have an amazingly large role in the decision making process.

I feel for this couple because the man probably doesn't understand (even yet) how emotionally tied this girl is to her mother and other family members, far greater than anything he's seen in the West.  The marriage without parents in attendance was not only a mistake, it was an act of rebellion on the part of a prodigal daughter who will eventually make a decision about her future.  And her eventual decision, no matter how much passion flows temporarily in a new marriage, is going to break this guy's heart.

I'm truly sorry. 

[mendeleyev]

In thinking of this couple's perdicament, perhaps some lessons can be learned by others who have not yet proposed marriage.  My wife and I courted (old world style) for just over 14 months.  One day when it had become increasingly clear that we wanted to spend life together we stopped impromptu at a wedding shop.  It was my idea and I barged in not even noticing that she was hanging back somewhat.  A few minutes later, leaving with me feeling like a balloon with the air seeping out, she deflated me even further once we were back on the sidewalk by quietly inquiring why I had rushed in like a fool but had not yet shown her family the courtesy of asking for their blessing to marry her. 

Ouch.  It was a quiet walk back to my apartment and instead of staying for dinner as expected, she took a bus home.  I spent the weekend in solitude, knowing that I had made a major faux pax in regard to her family's cultural standards. 

That Monday I arrived early at Moscow's Radio Mayak and cornered my assistant Oksana.  She had been my "courtship coach" of sorts and upon hearing what I'd done she turned quiet also.  That scared the heck out of me.  About a half hour later she decided to speak about it and this time I promised to do it as taught and not rush past important Eastern traditions...if Aya would give me another chance.

In short, several months later I stayed with the time-honoured tradition of having a 'representative' call on the family (with me in tow) to present me and ask that I be allowed to marry their daughter (even though she was over 35 at the time).  My "representative" was her cousin German so I felt fairly confident as to the success of our mission. 

As coached by Oksana and Gera, I took along a good quality bottle of vodka, a loaf of special bread, and a present of flowers for her mother.  We met with Mother and her Uncle Mikhailovich and although it was not yet appropiate for me to speak, her mother nodded her approval when she saw that I had brought the correct items.  By that time I had gotten to know her mother fairly well and could 'read' her easily so her acceptance took some of my nervousness away.

As the groom's representatives speak to her family on the grooms behalf, her cousin Gera did a great job.  He and I had already formed a special bond and today we are 'brothers.'  He assured Mother and Uncle Mikhail that I had a stable job/career, a place to live, knew how to manage for a family and that I loved my future stepdaughter. 

As per how Oksana had coached me over the months, Uncle Mikhail did most of the talking but Mother interjected with some additional questions.  Once they had consulted together, Uncle Mikhail sent Mother into the kitchen to open the vodka and bread (a sign that my proposal had been accepted).

Only when Mother re-entered the living room did Aya appear for the first time and she and Mother, true to ancient Russian/Ukrainian tradition, unveiled the wedding towels which were sewn especially for this occasion and which we would use during the Orthodox wedding ceremony and then those towels would be saved for the baptisms of any future children.  The bread was sliced and served, the vodka poured but I knew there was one more hurtle to clear.

And Mother spoke to the final hurtle:  The family priest would meet with us and he would have final the final say.  Both Oksana and Aya had warned me that this would be the case, but it was so, well, unAmerican.  Couldn't Aya just dispense with all the tradition and say yes for herself?  After all, she was a grown woman, owned an apartment and had a career.  But I am Orthodox Christian and understand that this is often a decision given to a 'family confessor' by many families.  I had been worshipping together with her family during our courtship so I knew the priest well and while a bit nervious, was still confident he would say yes.  Not long afterward he gave his blessing.

While understanding that not every guy has the same amount of time to court, it still amazes me at the level of either not knowing, or perhaps not caring, that guys won't at least in some measure try to capture some of the traditions which would make a girl's family feel like they could trust this man to take their daughter far away to the other side of the world.  Its really a clash of assumptions.  We assume that they approach courtship and marriage just like in the west.  They don't.  They assume that we share the same old world dating styles and wedding ideals as they.  We don't.  And so something has to give.  Unfortunately those of us with the most opportunities and wherewithall expect those with the least to conform to our standards. 

I would argue that we should make an effort to cross that cultural bridge.  It's in your own best interest.  When a family has blessed the marriage, she travels with confidence and her family feels better about letting her go.

As 2Tall says, just my 2 kopeks.

[Misha]

It is really important IMO to understand the dynamic between the woman you want to marry and her family. Is she too emotionally dependent on them? Are they too dependent on her? What are the problems you are likely to face in the future.

Here, however, it seems to be another problem. Any man who wants to marry a woman who has a child from a previous marriage has to realize that there will likely be problems in the future with immigration. If the woman, in this case, did not have a child, she could simply have left and her parents could not have stopped her. Even if she had a wonderful relationship with her parents and they were happy to see her off to her new life in a new country, the ex could still have caused problems. The safest bet would be to always expect problems with the ex when marrying a woman who already has a child.

[I/O]

If the father of the kid involved won't sign permission for the kid to leave the country, her only course of action is to go to the courts for the removal of parental rights. If the father has finacially supported the child then her chances of getting a judgement in her favour are slim.

Mendeleyev nailed it IMO, this lady will eventually make a decision which will break the guy's heart. Bad move getting married prior to sorting this one.

I/O

[William3rd]

Hi.  I need some assistance and advice.

I have a friend (Seriously) who tried to get his girl back home and had problems with the in laws and ex who have been rather over the top.  Problem is there is a daughter from a previous relationship and the ex has teamed up with the in laws and are trying to stop the daughter getting permission to leave Ukraine.

My friend tied to the BS and games decided to marry his grill and they had a great wedding last year., which the parents did not attend

Well the hostility and games continue.

Problem is he can not secure travel documents until the dispute of the daughter is resolved.,  She is 5 years old.


This is becoming a nightmare from hell.  Both husband and we are committed to work this through but it seams to be getting no where..

Has anyone else experienced this sport of problem and do you have serious advice as to hope best proceed.  I would appreciate informed information and not second guessing.

I have to keep it all hush huish and as such have created a new account to try and protect the idenity of my friend.

Any helkpful suggestions welcomed.



 

This case will be settle in the foreign country and US immigration law does not apply here. Inlaws and ex are against wife over the daughter? And the only ally wife has is the American interloper?

Big bribes to the judge, maybe?

This is an international move-away case which the wife will probably lose. Unless the Americanski is offering big perks to the opposition for returns home and communication, I think this one is DOA. . . . .

Dont worry about Hague Convention here. Wife has no rights under the Hague unless husband had stolen child and moved to a signatory country(except Germany wont enforce). Of course, if wife steals child then husband gets Hague rights.

Americanski should have gotten to know the players a little better; the inlaws signalled early what their thoughts were.

[mendeleyev]

William, you of course as an immigration attorney are spot on.  What makes this so impossible for the man, among the things you've pointed out, is that her only hope is to win full custody in a Russian court.  And with a active father who cares about his daughter, no Russian court will give her sole custody to take the child out of the country...absent some significant bribes....and at this stage of the game we're not talking pocket change.

Further, if the father invokes his right under Article 20 of Russian Federal Law on Procedure for Exiting and Entering the Russian Federation, Russian customs will stop the daughter from leaving at the airport.  Those things are computerized in Russia now and it is within the fathers full rights to file a special claim to Custom services forbidding the child to leave the territory of Russia (under Article 20). 

Moreover the new wife could face penalities if she were to return to Russia to visit relatives if she had deliberately deceived the father by willfully denying him knowledge (ah, like not telling him) that she intended to take the child out of the country, or if she somehow managed to slip out with the child in opposition to Federation Article 20. 

Can this man somehow sneak the child over first, and then make it "legal" afterward?  No.
Russia is not a party to the provisions of the Hague Convention regarding International Child Abduction (civil). Therefore a USA or any other third-country court will refuse to hear the case because Russia had retained sole international right to determine custody of a child born in Russia.  That is why the USCIS, in the absence of written documentation of full legal custody, directs applicants to apply to a Russian court for it to determine the childs proper place of residence. 

And will she surrender custody of a little 5 year old girl back to her ex so that she can travel to a guy she barely knows (in relative terms to how long she's lived in Russia, been a mother, etc, etc) to enjoy the good life in America?  Not a chance.  She knows she'd be miserable and could never live with that decision.

I'll always remember riding on a Metro one evening and some skinhead nationalists boarded.  They were loud and shouting anti-American slogans.  At the next stop they exited but not before slapping bumper stickers on the train windows which read (in Cyrillic) that "Russia is not America and America is not Russia." Now obviously they were protesting the active involvement at that time via the Monetary Fund, etc, in restructuring Russia into a market-driven economy.

But the point needs to be taken.  Russia is not America or the west.  Family relations are different.  Ideas about marriage and extended family involvment is as different as night to day.  I've lived that first-hand. 

This gentleman fatally erred by not getting her family on board with the wedding plans and rushing ahead when they balked.  Their refusal to attend the ZAGS ceremony (so very important in that culture) was a huge billboard, a large sign painted in stark colours across the dark Russian skies that this marriage, as you so aptly put it William, was DOA.

[Misha]

This gentleman fatally erred by not getting her family on board with the wedding plans and rushing ahead when they balked.  Their refusal to attend the ZAGS ceremony (so very important in that culture) was a huge billboard, a large sign painted in stark colours across the dark Russian skies that this marriage, as you so aptly put it William, was DOA.

IMHO, he should have checked to see whether the ex would be willing to sign the paperwork to allow his child to leave the country. I know realize that I am very fortunate in that my wife did not have any children.

[Jet]

But the point needs to be taken.  Russia is not America or the west.  Family relations are different.  Ideas about marriage and extended family involvment is as different as night to day.  I've lived that first-hand. 

Absolutely, and this is a point sometimes easily forgotten by Russians living abroad, as well as naive Americans. Last summer my wife commented on something her Uncle was talking about, saying "You'd never get away with that in America". Her Uncle, father, and grandmother turned around simultaneously and reminded her in no uncertain terms, "We're not IN America".  As far as the Ex, time can soften that situation up (it did with us), but the refusal to honor the family's wishes is a far greater difficulty to try to overcome and may indeed kill the whole deal. If the Ex is abusive toward the wife, or an absentee parent (or both) she may have a ghost of a chance with the courts, but it will be a serious uphill battle. If not, the chances are nil, as they should be, and as they would be even here in America. They might be able to pull this one out of the sh!tcan but it will take time and patience as they go back and try to mend fences with the family.

[Anton]

<quote>
First, we need more information.
*Has the girl received any indications of possible violence from the Ex husband?
*Shared custody or not?
*Does the Ex husband spend any (no matter how insignificant) quality time with the child?
*child support ordered? If so, any paid?
*Any indications the Ex is looking for financial compensation for his signature?
*Does the Ex have any leverage over the parents (IE is he in a position to cause them pain, distress, social or financial hardship)?
*Is he "the Ex" because he left, or because she kicked him out?
</000000

1.  yes she has been threatened and intimidated.
2. No the child is not officially registered under his name.  She was a single mum. 
3. No not as I understand.  Her spent time in prison in Turkey for a forged passport
4. No.  He has applied for "fathers Rights"  Court has not met to decide his petition. Legal games to prevent/delay issue of |Travel documents for child
5. Possible but I think it has more do do with the parents/Mother.
6. No but he is on talking terms with them.  They are definitely acting on association with each other\
7.  They were never married and she left him.  He does nothing to contribute to the child's welfare and support.


This is not an immigration matter but an issue with the Ukrainian Law.  They can not receive travel until this issue is resolved.  It is a nightmare of Ukrainian legal system and a spiteful Mother and ex.

As I am not the person directly involved I need to converse with the Husband wand wife who are suffering in the process.  It is not a US finance visa situation (Europe)./  The problem is getting travel documents for the child who is under the wife custody.  But Under Ukrainian Law there is a thing called "fathers rights"

Any advice is welcomed and will be seriously considered.   Again we prefer top talk with someone who has been though a similar problem or someone that has direct first hand knowledge.

[Anton]

<quote>
The marriage without parents in attendance was not only a mistake, it was an act of rebellion on the part of a prodigal daughter who will eventually make a decision about her future.  And her eventual decision, no matter how much passion flows temporarily in a new marriage, is going to break this guy's heart.
</quote>

Guy's I attended the wedding, I was Best man, The grandfather was invented and he was very reasonable and thought his son was an idiot.  My friend wanted to do a finance visa but the prospect of getting permission for the child to travel on a finance visa with a hostile ex was next to none.  The decision was to Marry in Ukraine with without the parents knowing.  It was a great wedding.  Having married the chances of a positive court outcome are better.  BUT it takes time and builds stress.  I expect that IF it gets to court and the case is heard then the decision will be in favour of the Mother and her husband.  BUT this is Ukraine. 

My friend has moved to Ukraine, indefinitely until this issue is resolved.  But it would be better for all if they could migrate to Europe and build their life together and establish a stable environment for the child.  Time is the essence and problem.

[BC]

Any advice is welcomed and will be seriously considered.   Again we prefer top talk with someone who has been though a similar problem or someone that has direct first hand knowledge.

The only first hand knowledge I can provide is:

1. I live in Europe
2. For immigration purposes a court document was also required by immigration authorities here declaring sole custody of the child or authorization of the remaining parent.
3. Although I clarified this issue early on in our relationship, had it not worked out as expected I was prepared to relocate to RU to be with my family.

Considering this could be a time consuming and emotionally stressful issue, why does the husband not move to UA to further a 'family relationship'?  Certainly his/their actions would be supportive when a court date is set..

What happens if the court does not decide to allow the child to immigrate?.. will the relationship survive?

If not, the court probably decided well IMHO

In for a penny, in for a pound..

Ahh.. cross post.. I see your friend did move to UA in the meanwhile.. Good move!

[MONADA]

Hello, this story is about me and my husb.

Didn't read all, but now parents became my enemies, and in between my husb and them I choose husband for sure.

I'm taking my mom to court to punish her for money (I want my part of their apartmet, I own 25%).

also want police to start crime process against her, if not, I or my husb will take her to court for damages too.

plus I want to punish that idiot, my x on money, as far as he wanted so much to get his father's rights to stop me traveling and take my daughter from me

plus another court to deny his fatherhood, cs her was liing on trials and hooked himself on rape.

as far as we can't move quick out of here, I care everybody of my relatives and x be busy.