Are you man enough for a RW?

[Kuna]

So where do we check for a woman's price tag? It is not a question of whether you can afford her, but one of whether you can meet her expectations (sometimes inflated). I do agree that a man should know whether a woman thinks he is "stingy" and under most circumstances look for someone else. It is important that a husband and wife share similar priorities when it comes to spending money (or not spending money). My wife is quite careful with money, so she does not see being "stingy" as being a bad trait. Yesterday, as a case in point, we bought cabbage in bulk so we can salt it: roughly ten heads of large cabbage for $17.

Maaaaate... what's going on?  Your last 5 posts have related to finances, or lack of them... and the lower income earners ability to still "get himself" a RW.  Please don't take anything I say personally...  it's not aimed at you!

I don't think ANYONE is denying it's possible on a LOWER income... but if you're going to give the green light to every guy with minimal funds you should grab a set of pompoms and go join Turbo.

If you ARE the Misha I'm thinking of you might remember the American guy living in a trailer park a few months back that was waiting for the RW to arrive in the US because he didn't have money to travel to her. 

Maybe it's better to be honest with him and tell him to focus on his cousin, "She's closer and you already have so much in common".   

What advice would you give him???  People on low/no income can achieve this in some cases???  You've proven it with your young teacher bloke you're quoting earlier...

I am trying to say is that I would prefer to warn a man about the potential costs rather than let him believe the costs are unsubstantial.



Now... as for your point about "stingy" and the type (price) of woman who would think or say such a thing...  WHO FREAKING CARES?  If a woman thinks a man is stingy FOR WHATEVER REASON, HE NEEDS TO KNOW.

What gets them to that point is irrelevant... 

I'm glad your wife doesn't think you're stingy...  but I'd prefer not to debate the price of cabbage if that's cool with you...

I hope we understand each other now and can let go of the semantics.

Kuna

[Misha]

Bargain! 

Meeting, courting, marrying, immigration and travel for approx $1,300 plus or minus... 

I wish I was so lucky - but I think we both know you're understating the costs a little! 

p.s. Are you with Misha with the bushy mustache that used to have his pic in his profile... I'm just a little confused.

I will address the p.s. first. No, that was Mishenka. I asked Dan to change from gabaub to Misha.

Where exactly am understating costs? Again, it depends on circumstances. If you are going to be flying to Russia solely for a purpose of finding a wife, then you will have travel costs. However, if you are going to Russia for other reasons (work, study, etc.) then the costs will be much less. Here is another nice couple that I met a few months ago: he went to Kazakhstan to study Russian. Lived there for a year or so and met the woman that is now his wife. How would you calculate his costs? Yes, he had to pay to go there and had to pay for his living expenses, but he was doing this with another goal in mind.

In my case, if we exclude immigration costs ($1,000 in government fees and the $2,100 I opted to pay for a lawyer to help with the paperwork), I can't say that I the endeavor cost me more money. If anything, I saved money in the process.

How do I save money:

• My money does not like to waste money. She considers going to a restaurant a frivolous expenses except for the occasional special event or to indulge her occasional (once-a-month) craving for sushi. Because of this, I can say that she is saving me money;
• She is training me to spend less. Any impulse buys that I would have made in the past, she convinces me that I do not need it. So, I spend less;
• My wife wastes nothing! In the past two years, we have not had to throw out any food that had gone buy and she insists that the fridge be empty before buying more food. She can't stand seeing anything going to waste;
• When she does buy something, she looks for quality and for something that she knows that she will use often. She does this with clothes: if she buys a blouse, she has already figured out with what clothes she can wear it and does not buy it unless she is convinced that it will match what she already has. In addition to buying clothes second-hand, she saves money by buying only what she truly needs.

Again, the problem with generalizations is that they may not fit individual circumstances. I will be the first to acknowledge that what worked for me, will not likely work for most men.

[KenC]

Kuna, you are right and you are wrong. My impression of this thread was the same as her's. You are correct in that I likely would have not commented if she had not. We were sitting the other night and she asked me what I thought about this thread. I told hre I thought it was silly.  The title particularly makes me laugh. I did see some good comments come out and you are right, had she not commented I would not have.
I think it is nieve to believe people with qualities such as you describe will recognize themselves and learn from the comments. As was mentioned a greedy man sees himself as careful with money, an abusive man sees himself as a real man and a lier sees himself as clever.

Turbo,
You are so full of it that you cannot even keep your lies straight.  You were the first in your family to post here.  Two posts actually.  Your wifey only chimed in with a pitiful attempt to discredit me.  How ironic it is that her efforts only made her look foolish because of her lack of ability to wrap her mind around American humor.  Sometimes there is justice.

The irony is also quite obvious when you disengage from the thread upon getting cornered in your own foolish statements or have no witty comeback (or reasonable answers) to straight forward questions posed to you (three times)  Many here see right through your bullsh!t now Turbo, sorry that we are no longer baffled by it any more.
KenC

[Misha]

I don't think ANYONE is denying it's possible on a LOWER income... but if you're going to give the green light to every guy with minimal funds you should grab a set of pompoms and go join Turbo.

If you ARE the Misha I'm thinking of you might remember the American guy living in a trailer park a few months back that was waiting for the RW to arrive in the US because he didn't have money to travel to her. 

Maybe it's better to be honest with him and tell him to focus on his cousin, "She's closer and you already have so much in common".   

I am trying to say is that I would prefer to warn a man about the potential costs rather than let him believe the costs are unsubstantial.

Nope, do not live in a trailer park. I did know, however, of one nice Russian couple who did live in a trailer park. He was another student who lived in Russia for a couple of years and then came back to Canada. She did not complain about living in the trailer park. Instead, she got her master's degree and is now living in a small town up north earning a very decent salary. Still with her husband and doing well from what I have heard.

[Ronnie]

Those who can't actually afford it- because it's damn expensive and may put too much pressure on the "new family" if the man doesn't have sufficient income or savings;

I submit that if a family starts out under "pressure" it will better prepare them for trials and difficulties that may lie down the road of life.  A human being or a union of two people cannot grow stonger without adversity.  It's a basic law of nature. 

If a miscalculation by a few thousand dollars is "too much pressure" for the couple to face, then better they learn it earlier than later.

[vwrw]

From Kuna; Ultimately almost anyone CAN find a wife to marry him..

vwrw: I agree with you, because if even spiteful psychos, who in addition are ugly midgets, can find wives to marry them, then almost anyone can find a wife in Ukraine.

From Kuna; Fact: When people are confronted with the negatives about themselves they'll often become hostile.

vwrw: I agree with you.

The irony is also quite obvious when you disengage from the thread upon getting cornered in your own foolish statements or have no witty comeback (or reasonable answers) to straight forward questions posed to you (three times)  Many here see right through your bullsh!t now Turbo, sorry that we are no longer baffled by it any more.
KenC

KenC, you became hostile because you were confronted with the negatives about you. Admit that deep inside you know that you are one of those who you call “not- enough -man”.

[BC]

I submit that if a family starts out under "pressure" it will better prepare them for trials and difficulties that may lie down the road of life.  A human being or a union of two people cannot grow stonger without adversity.  It's a basic law of nature. 

If a miscalculation by a few thousand dollars is "too much pressure" for the couple to face, then better they learn it earlier than later.

Ronnie,

I agree with you, but draw the line where one creates debt for this venture.

Probably the worst case scenario is when the newlyweds look at a pile of unpaid bills and cc debt and it is realized or felt by the wife that she somehow caused this financial disaster.

One should at least give her a clean plate to work off of once she arrives.

A woman might be happy contributing to her family, but paying off debt and possibly alimony/child support to the former wife that is more than the couple's remaining expendable income can't be very rewarding.

Debt is a ticket to disaster IMHO.

[BC]

Yesterday, as a case in point, we bought cabbage in bulk so we can salt it: roughly ten heads of large cabbage for $17.

Oh yeah.. I've never been able to make it through a cabbage shredding session without donating some blood to the huge mountain of cabbage on the kitchen table. 

Squeezing that amount of salted cabbage wears out your hands quickly, but does disinfect the wounds quite well. 

We air the bedroom daily afterwards..

Cabbage $17.00, the experience - priceless!

[KenC]

KenC, you became hostile because you were confronted with the negatives about you. Admit that deep inside you know that you are one of those who you call “not- enough -man”.

Hostile?  I'm not being hostile.  I am laughing at your transparent motives and ignorant execution. Sorry, I am not going to be baited by your childish accusations.  Go away and play with someone at your own level please.
 
KenC

[KenC]

Oh yeah.. I've never been able to make it through a cabbage shredding session without donating some blood to the huge mountain of cabbage on the kitchen table. 

Squeezing that amount of salted cabbage wears out your hands quickly, but does disinfect the wounds quite well. 

We air the bedroom daily afterwards..

Cabbage $17.00, the experience - priceless!

BC,
Maybe we should rename this thread; Are you man enough to make salted cabbage?
KenC

[vwrw]

Hostile?  I'm not being hostile.  I am laughing at your transparent motives and ignorant execution. Sorry, I am not going to be baited by your childish accusations.  Go away and play with someone at your own level please.
 
KenC

I suppose this post was meant to insult me?  A desire to insult somebody isn’t an evidence of hostility of the insulter?

Notwithstanding how many fake smiley faces you put forward they won’t hide your hostile intention.

[KenC]

I suppose this post was meant to insult me?  A desire to insult somebody isn’t an evidence of hostility of the insulter?

Notwithstanding how many fake smiley faces you put forward they won’t hide your hostile intention.

If you have nothing relevant to say regarding the topic of this thread, please abstain from posting here.  It is the only courteous thing for you to do (not that you would know).
KenC

[Bob Smith]

Are there certain types of men or certain personalities of men that should not get involved with this process?

It has long been said here that RW are not for everyone.  I have always maintained that men with little or no dating skills should avoid this process as the possibility for them to be eaten by sharks is just too great.  Your thoughts?
KenC

I think one of the big problems with this thread is the title "Are you man enough for a RW."  I don't recall any point in my adult life in America or Europe where anyone has used the expression "Are you man enough" during an intelligent conversation... Actually no one I know has ever uttered it in my presence.  Usually when I've heard it something incredibly dumb or macho was about to be said in a commercial that typically involved gory video games, drinking excessive amounts of alcohol, or doing anything incredibly dangerous.

Now KenC's original post was actually pretty reasonable.  I don't think it or any number of other reasonable statements on this thread have anything to do with being "man enough."  A lot of it is just common sense.  And a lot would also be applicable to men seeking to date women from the US or Western Europe.

I saw the title of this thread and decided to read it because I thought maybe Russian woman were into some sort of weird machismo stuff.  I'm an educated 30 yo man and I don't have time for such games.  So I was looking for a deal breaker.  It turns out my fears were not well founded.  RW seem to want and value a lot of the same things normal AM want and value.

I also agree with Turboguy.  Some of what we've said here is not very nice.  And it sort of looks pathetic for a bunch of old guys to sit around on the internet bashing people that don't conform to their image of an ideal man.  But I would submit that along with that bashing there are other more constructive things going on that are being masked by the noise.

I don't think we should tell anyone that they are 100% guaranteed to fail in their quest.  I jumped down someone else's throat because that's what I thought they were saying.  But I do think its constructive for people to discuss what they've seen work and what they've seen people have problems with.  Its nice to discuss the pros and cons and leave it up to the reader to make their own decision.  In America we say, "your dime, your time."  Its someone else's dough.  If they want to blow it by spending $600 for a profile, and then put up a grainy webcam shot of themselves in a tshirt I guess its their right.

I had a girlfriend once who would always blow up at me, because she said I told her not to do things.  She was mistaken.  I just told her to wait and plan a little bit and she would have more success.  This really should be a discussion about optimal and suboptimal approaches to successful RW dating.  Saying you don't have a prayer go home is a bit of a cop out.  Saying you may have an uphill struggle here is some advice that will improve your odds... That's more constructive.

Case in point...  I read an interview where a RW was discussing a African American's experience with FSU agencies.  The AAM said that he sent messages to numerous women and got a number of replies.  Lets say he got 20.  He then divulged to the 20 that he was Black and his response rate immediately plummeted to 2.  Then he tried a different approach.  He posted a profile that clearly indicated his race and he had a higher success rate from women that contacted him.   My question to this gentleman is why in the world would he not divulge his ethnicity in his initial correspondence.  I'm obviously not saying he doesn't have a chance with RW, but his initial approach was suboptimal.  Same guy, different approach, better results.  That's the type of stuff that should be discussed.

[BC]

Bob,

I think this thread goes well beyond dating.

I can say that from my experience, this relationship has been the most challenging of any.. and most of my life I have dated women of other nationalities.

Sure, I also believe any man can arrange a few *dates* with a RW, but a long term relationship is another beast altogether.

[Bob Smith]

Bob,

I think this thread goes well beyond dating.

I can say that from my experience, this relationship has been the most challenging of any.. and most of my life I have dated women of other nationalities.

Sure, I also believe any man can arrange a few *dates* with a RW, but a long term relationship is another beast altogether.

I just used "dating" as a general term.  I currently reside in America.  I don't consider anything that involves $1000 round trip airplane tickets and 14 hrs of travel time each way "dating."  I call that looking for a wife.  In my opinion guys that marry these girls have a courtship... they didn't date.

As a newbie who's never been to the FSU I see the complete lack of "dating" as a major problem with this endeavor.  On average there is no way with those types of barriers you are going to have as robust a relationship before marriage as someone doing the usual American dating thing.  But on the other hand if I recall correctly there are societies that completely lack dating in the American sense and have arranged marriages.  Their relationships are equally if not more durable when compared to traditional American marriages.

That's why I'm here m'man.  I want to hear the trials and tribulations of others and make my own decision as to whether its worth it for me.

[Admin]

I just used "dating" as a general term.  I currently reside in America.  I don't consider anything that involves $1000 round trip airplane tickets and 14 hrs of travel time each way "dating."  I call that looking for a wife.  In my opinion guys that marry these girls have a courtship... they didn't date.

As a newbie who's never been to the FSU I see the complete lack of "dating" as a major problem with this endeavor.  On average there is no way with those types of barriers you are going to have as robust a relationship before marriage as someone doing the usual American dating thing.  But on the other hand if I recall correctly there are societies that completely lack dating in the American sense and have arranged marriages.  Their relationships are equally if not more durable when compared to traditional American marriages.

That's why I'm here m'man.  I want to hear the trials and tribulations of others and make my own decision as to whether its worth it for me.

I would hope, and expect, you will find a resounding chorus of guys telling you that to make a life commitment without spending ample time getting to know the other person (a/k/a 'dating'), is a recipe for disaster. While there are certainly those who threw the dice and came out OK, I highly doubt anyone would encourage others to take those risks - unless, of course, they have some fiscal interest.

As for those other cultures (other than western cultures) having different traditions insofar as dating goes - yes, there are. I lived for a short time in India, and still keep in contact with many friends there. Some of those friends - both male and female - are currently in a marriage arranged by their parents. By most accounts they are successful unions. HOWEVER - they grew up expecting to follow their culture's traditions of arranged marriage and they had the enormous benefit of family support throughout. Neither would be true if a person were to try to emulate THAT tradition with a RW. Women and families from the FSU are not raised to expect others to arrange their unions.

Anyway - just a few loose comments in response to your post.

FWIW

- Dan

[LiveFromUkraine]

As for those other cultures (other than western cultures) having different traditions insofar as dating goes - yes, there are. I lived for a short time in India, and still keep in contact with many friends there. Some of those friends - both male and female - are currently in a marriage arranged by their parents. By most accounts they are successful unions. HOWEVER - they grew up expecting to follow their culture's traditions of arranged marriage and they had the enormous benefit of family support throughout. Neither would be true if a person were to try to emulate THAT tradition with a RW. Women and families from the FSU are not raised to expect others to arrange their unions.

Anyway - just a few loose comments in response to your post.

FWIW

- Dan

I just recently spent 3 months in India.  It is a very interesting culture. 

From my understanding, people really don't date when it comes to arranged marriages.  People start "dating" once they are engaged.

They are not all arranged solely by the parents btw.   Sometimes the man picks out his own fiance. The man needs a woman family member, normally his mother, to ask the woman prospects family to marry. 

Of course there are different religions as well as customs there.

Sorry for the off topic comments.



Thomas

[dispozo]

Hi!

I am still very new to all this.

This is not a argument statement just my experience.......

I meet my lady online last july. We are both shy and didn't have any long term relationship experience. The more we learned about each other, the
more we identified with each other. I had sent her a three page letter about some of the things I have been through in my life. That night she called me (while I was sleeping)
and she wanted me to read her letter she had sent. I read her letter about her life and I understood what she has gone through in her life.  We had shared some of the same
things in life (losing someone very close, feeling of being alone and other things). That was a big turning point in our relationship. Our relationship took time, we both are not
in any rush. In December we decide to take the next step and become a couple. Two months later I visited her in her home city and met her family and friends. We had the
greatest time together. After that trip I could see her a someone I could spend the rest of my life with.

I believe in being equal in our relationship. I believe in making important decisions together. I have told her all this and she has no problems with this. We have been
very open and honest with what we both want in our life and in our future together. We have had our little stumbling blocks, mostly me in the beginning (trust and unsure
of her motives). But we made it through that and we are much stronger now.

I think when you find someone that you identify with things are easier. But we still have a long way to go in our relationship. I think we were very very lucky to find each other.

Our next step will be marriage. We have both talked and understand that it will not be easy (especially for her). But we are both willing to do what it will take to make it work.

So........

Is it possible to find love with a FSU lady, if your shy, no long term relationship experience, etc. Yes. How long will our relationship last, I honestly don't know, but I honestly see no reason now why I won't last. This July will be one year and counting......

I write this to give the guys like me and little hope. But I also feel that I was very very lucky and sometimes it takes luck.

I understand that many other members have been at this a lot longer then I and that their experience should be listen too.

Thanks

[Admin]

I just recently spent 3 months in India.  It is a very interesting culture. 

From my understanding, people really don't date when it comes to arranged marriages.  People start "dating" once they are engaged.

They are not all arranged solely by the parents btw.   Sometimes the man picks out his own fiance. The man needs a woman family member, normally his mother, to ask the woman prospects family to marry. 

Of course there are different religions as well as customs there.

Sorry for the off topic comments.



Thomas

Thomas,

Most of the people I know had *some* input into the selection process - and all of them tell me that they had veto power - so it may be something of a misnomer to consider it entirely arranged by parents.

One of the things their marriage traditions call for is the removal of the wife from her family home, to live under the roof of the husband's family. The MIL has enormous influence - for all that entails, positive and negative. I *have* met a few people that did not follow this pattern, but they were definitely in the minority.

Again - FWIW

- Dan

[KenC]

Rob,
This:

That's why I'm here m'man.  I want to hear the trials and tribulations of others and make my own decision as to whether its worth it for me.

Doesn't seem to fit with this:

I also agree with Turboguy.  Some of what we've said here is not very nice.  And it sort of looks pathetic for a bunch of old guys to sit around on the internet bashing people that don't conform to their image of an ideal man.  But I would submit that along with that bashing there are other more constructive things going on that are being masked by the noise.

I would submit that there was very little "bashing" done here.  In fact, your hero, Turboguy, is the only one to post the label of "loser" here.  I would also say that if this mild thread is offensive for you, just wait until you are sitting across the table from a direct RW.  By comparason the bad news delivered here was sugar coated.

BTW, I knew the title was a stretch, but I wanted a good "hook" to get a lot of participation.  And it obviously worked on YOU. 
KenC

[Gator]

I don't consider anything that involves $1000 round trip airplane tickets and 14 hrs of travel time each way "dating."  I call that looking for a wife.  In my opinion guys that marry these girls have a courtship... they didn't date.

Bob, you asked about "uphill struggles."  You just described one - a man who goes to the FSU looking for a wife.  Such men are not focused on more important goals:  getting to know a woman, understanding her culture, and taking the time to build a solid relationship.

As a newbie who's never been to the FSU I see the complete lack of "dating" as a major problem with this endeavor.

 

You can date in the FSU.  It takes more time, more money vs. a one-week search for a wife. 

On average there is no way with those types of barriers you are going to have as robust a relationship before marriage as someone doing the usual American dating thing. 

My relationships with UW and RW were more robust than with AW.   Time is compressed, both people realize it, and things naturally progress quickly if both parties are sincerely interested. 

But on the other hand if I recall correctly there are societies that completely lack dating in the American sense and have arranged marriages.  Their relationships are equally if not more durable when compared to traditional American marriages.

Apples and oranges.  Such are more marriages of families with much deliberation and strong cultural roots. 

[Gator]

I had a girlfriend once who would always blow up at me, because she said I told her not to do things.  She was mistaken.  I just told her to wait and plan a little bit and she would have more success. 

I understand why you are looking elsewhere.  You may argue that your past girlfirend was "mistaken," yet she perceived that you were telling her not to do things.  Perception is stronger than reality.  I don't know about the other men's experience, yet I met many RW and UW whose perception contrasted starkly with my sense of reality.  Some of it was cultural.  Not all.

Bob, you are a young man, half my age, and you seem to possess the impetuosity of youth.  If you go to the FSU, you will probably be dating young girls.  I caution you to take your time.  Read DKMM's many threads in the archives.

[Gator]

... a greedy man sees himself as careful with money, an abusive man sees himself as a real man and a lier sees himself as clever.

Must agree with that. 

I told my wife about this thread and asked her what type of men should not waste their time with Russian women.  She answered, "Greedy men!"  Then she asked, "Why discuss it?  It will not convince a greedy man to stay home.  A greedy man is greedy, will not change and thinks his way is correct.  Let him waste his time.  He makes the generous men look even better."

[Ronnie]

Gator,
I am still trying to understand the nuance of language when a woman uses the terms greedy and generous.  At first, it turned me off to her those words used in profiles, etc.  But as I've understood the language better and I have come to understand that greedy is a miss-translation.  A better word would be "selfish." 

As to when they say "generous" they really should be saying "unselfish."

Selfish and unselfish fit the intended meaning better than greedy and generous.

[Ronnie]

I'm reminded of my first few months of my search.  When I first appeared at the Adam-and-Eva agency in Odessa, I spoke no Russian but what little I could remember from a college course many years earlier.  I needed an interpreter for the ladies that didn't speak English. 

Over the several months I was in and out of Odessa, the owner and staff got to know me pretty well.  What they didn't know was that the lady that I had been seeing or talking to daily didn't speak English and I had stopped using an interpreter.  The result was a baptism of fire of my Russian language skills.  When I ended that relationship and returned to the pool, so to speak, I sat in the office of the agency waiting for a lady to show up for her appointment with me.   

In Russian, the owner and her assistant began talking about me and my virtues and vices in my presence not knowing that during the 3 months they had not seem me, I had become reasonably proficient in Russian.  I didn't let them go to far, so as to not embarrass them but it was interesting to hear the candid comments.  It was like being a fly on the wall.

They were stunned and a little embarrassed when I began to speak Russian with them.   I'm sure they were thinking, "OMG, what did we say?"  The one comment the owner made that intrigued me and I must say woke me up a bit was, "on slishkom dobriy"  (He's too kind). 

What's wrong with kind? Can one really be too kind?  I never thought so, but this candid observation was perhaps a turning point for me.  The main fault the WOVO said she found in me was that I was not forceful enough! (interesting she never made that observation during our many phone conversations and emails).  Maybe some women see kindness as a weakness.   So they teach their men to be unkind and then complain at them when they act that way.  Is it any wonder RM alcoholism is so high? 

I resolved that I would be nice but firm.  Say "no" but with a quiet resolute voice.  If they stomp off, let them walk 'til their feet hurt. Then offer to rub her sore feet but don't offer a second time when she rejects your gesture.  Self confidence seems to a great aphrodisiac.