Are you man enough for a RW?

[Ronnie]

Russia is sytemically corrupt.  Does that fact also offend?  These statements come from my Russian friends but they are well known if not often spoken. 

Corruption and deception breed and flourish in the dark.  Let's admit what is.  The more our ills have sunlight shown on them, the better the chance they will heal.

[Doll]

You were talking of eastern European  cultures or something like that.
You said deception   was  typical for these cultures.It IS an offense, lets leave the governments alone.
 I just don't like what you said about culture.

[KenC]

This is a very, very good idea.  But one that I haven't practiced enough with various FSU gals that I have known.

However, I remember one instance when I did try to get a clarification of something which peeeed me off pretty good.  In the clarification that the gal gave, I am pretty sure she switched her meaning quite a bit to back off from the meaning that had ticked me.
As a result, I was still sort of left in the dark about what her true feelings really were.  So it could be sort of a double edged sword.

Still, in most cases, I think Ken's tactic would serve everyone well.

Pike,
This method served us well because we had established a sense of love and trust.  As you indicate, if it is a new relationship, this method does allow the other person to back track a bit.  Which on the surface is OK unless the person is just attempting to say what you want to hear.
KenC

[KenC]

99 times out of 100 it was a misinterpretation of what was meant.  You need to give a lot of benefit of the doubt in the beginning.
KenC

But KenC, it's the other 1% we want to hear about.   

In those cases. Lena was just wrong!
KenC

[Ronnie]

You were talking of eastern European  cultures or something like that.
You said deception   was  typical for these cultures.It IS an offense, lets leave the governments alone.
 I just don't like what you said about culture.

The system doesn't stop at the government.  FSU citizens pay bribes at the rate of 10-13% of their incomes. The don't just bribe the government, they bribe the hiring manager at the bank to get a job, etc.
I don't like that Americans are considered overweight but facts are facts. Hiding from them doesn't make them disappear.

Further, for men to understand the environment from which the RW come can only help him to understand her better.   A normally honest person can become less so through the process of rationalization.
  If he judges her by western standards, especially in the area of candor and honesty, he will feel frustrated and think he has chosen unwisely.  She simply must have time to adjust her perception of such things to fit western culture.

[ScottinCrimea]

In those cases. Lena was just wrong!
KenC

If Lena reads this, you are going to have another one of those 1% moments.  :zappedhim:

[TwoBitBandit]

You were talking of eastern European  cultures or something like that.
You said deception   was  typical for these cultures.It IS an offense, lets leave the governments alone.
 I just don't like what you said about culture.

I'm with Ronnie on this one.

It's not just the government that is corrupt.  It's the culture that fosters an environment of corruption.  It persists because the populace goes along with it.

I also agree with Ronnie that every culture has its weak points, and I agree with him that the trend of obesity in America is embarassing.  But there's no point in denying it.  Hey, we have fat people everywhere here, that's just the way we are. 

[Kuna]

The system doesn't stop at the government.  FSU citizens pay bribes at the rate of 10-13% of their incomes. The don't just bribe the government, they bride the hiring manager at the bank to get a job, etc.

Ronnie,

Would you mind referencing the 10-13% stat you quote above...  I love stats... I just love them more when they are facts!   

[Jumper]

Are you crazy enough to seek a RW?

while i know why kenC titled his thread this way..

THAT would be a far more accurate and appropriate thread title.





sudz-

While i understand you lashing back a bit..
you were certainly generalizing as much as the next guy..
not everyone married to another nationalty ,( RW) is overweight, rich ,balding or any of
the stereotypes you were spitting out.

Most of us OMB's give 99% of the credit , to our wives !
who in not all, but most of the cases, made the huge sacrifices and endured much more hardships in relocation language etc.


as far as the thread..

it more defines the fact that you have to be completely nuts to do this.LOL
or at least typically have a certain mindset, or adventerous /risk taking spirit.

that doesnt make anyone  *better,,or worse*
it just likely  makes them crazier  and a bit more adventerous than thier neighbor


 
one thing i think this process does for a lot of guys that are shy, introverts,
 or what have you.
it gives them a way, or an intiative , to get the fug off the couch and meet someone.
if they want to change something in thier lives, repaetying thier daily routine likely isnt going to do it.

hey the outcome may be good or bad.
but thats life in general.









 

[Doll]

I'm with Ronnie on this one.

And I am NOT (being Russian BTW).
Then what are you doing here- on a "Russian women" board?
Seeking for deceving wives? ???

[Jet]

The system doesn't stop at the government.  FSU citizens pay bribes at the rate of 10-13% of their incomes. The don't just bribe the government, they bride the hiring manager at the bank to get a job, etc.

Ronnie I was thinking about your earlier post this afternoon as the operations manager for a local shopping mall was regaling me with the tale of his fantastic recent trip to Orlando which had been entirely sponsored by the mall's "preferred" roofing and asphalt contractors, and trying to discretely suggest that my company has the "opportunity" to position ourselves as the preferred General Contractor, and depending on our level of generosity perhaps he could arrange to extend that designation to some or all of the management company's properties in the S. FL area.
 

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,

Would you mind referencing the 10-13% stat you quote above...  I love stats... I just love them more when they are facts!   

Sorry Kuna, You're right, I should have posted a reference. 

http://www.transparency.org/news_room/latest_news/press_releases/2005/09_12_2005_barometer_2005

[Ronnie]

Ronnie I was thinking about your earlier post this afternoon as the operations manager for a local shopping mall was regaling me with the tale of his fantastic recent trip to Orlando which had been entirely sponsored by the mall's "preferred" roofing and asphalt contractors, and trying to discretely suggest that my company has the "opportunity" to position ourselves as the preferred General Contractor, and depending on our level of generosity perhaps he could arrange to extend that designation to some or all of the management company's properties in the S. FL area.
 

The United States is not where it should be on the corruption list.  People who come as immigrants from highly corrupt countries cannot immediately shed deeply ingrained attitudes.  It's no coincidence perhaps that New Zealand, least corrupt country has the most restrictive immigration policies.

[Ronnie]

And I am NOT (being Russian BTW).
Then what are you doing here- on a "Russian women" board?
Seeking for deceving wives? ???

Maybe I'm confused (it happens more frequently as I age) but I thought it was you who said that RW wives don't say (to their AM husbands) 90% of what they think and when the get together... I think your word was
d....a .....m.....n.!
Now, were you teasing us for our foolishness for marrying RW or were you being critical of their deceptive tendencies.  Now, you seem to be in denial of what you posted.
If it wasn't you, then I apologize in advance.  I'm too lazy to seach for the comment and it may have been in another thread.

[mendeleyev]

Doll, if you are Russian perhaps we should distinguish levels of corruption in terms you will readily understand.

1- What Jet has described might fit the catagory of блат (blat) so common in not only Russia but many societies as a form (non-cash) of using friends/favours/family/acquaintances to get ahead, land a job, or gain an advantage.  In western slang we use the expression "good ole boy network."

2- Direct bribes (взятка) of cash is something very common in Russia but not in most western countries.  I can be stopped for speeding in Moscow and offered a "choice" of how to take care of the fine (either cash or municipal system).  If I desire lower property taxes on our Moscow home, a well-placed envelope to the proper official can effect a sufficient "adjustment" of the monies owed.  If vandals are raiding our river dacha in winter, I can slide an envelope across a desk to the proper official at the local мили́ция office and the problem will be handled.

According to PRAVDA, the average bribe for a business person was $23,000 (USD) in 2001 but had risen to $135,000 (USD) by 2005.  Here is the link:  http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/351/16339_corruption.html


3- To open a new business or accept a new high profile job, of course one would need a "roof" (крыша) to 'cover' me.  Likely one can choose the 'roof' from one of several sources.  They will "take care" of me as long as agreed upon payments are on schedule.  In most cases there will be three choices for a good 'roof:'  A branch of government (federal, regional, city, etc depending on how high my roof needs go), a branch of the mafia, or a branch of law enforcement (the level of which will again depend on how "high the roof" needs to be.)

Now I'll offer a few observations:

A)  It's striking that two of my three likely choices will be "official."  The two would be some branch of government or a branch of law enforcement.  It renders the term "law enforcement" as sort of silly, doesn't it?

B)  If I slip $100 to a Western police officer who has stopped me for speeding, I will go to jail for attempted bribery.  I'd also be arrested for the envelope to the tax adjuster or the police chief also.

C)  And in the case of the "roof" (крыша), in the West all three choices would be in jail soon after such a bribe was revealed.  A local prosecutor has the power to arrest and hold any official, even to the highest levels if a crime has been committed.  Unlike Russia where a local prosecuter could never arrest a governor or federal official without Kremlin approval, such approval is simply not needed in the West. 

D) The West allows a free and independent media for such reasons.  And a free media would report such crimes with passion.  However, with both Misters Putin and Medvedev enjoying positions as significant shareholders in Russia's three largest media companies (Channel One, Russia TV, and Gazprom's NTV....each of which include television, radio, print and internet outlets), the chances of the media blowing the whistle in Russia are slim to none.

[Doll]

mendeleyev, initially we were talking of FSU culture and somebody said that in this culture deceit is a virtue. It was about RW lying to their American husbands.
 I don't want to go for any level of corruption in Russia as we are talking personal relationship. So in this regard the remark about culture is an offence. What was very funny - the touching testimony about fat people.
Come on guys, it is about apples and oranges.
So I didn't get the answer- if somebody is sure RW are about the deceit then why are they seeking for marriage in Russia?
Thank you, mendeleyev, anyway for refreshing course but I knew it long ago- before you were born.

[Misha]

So I didn't get the answer- if somebody is sure RW are about the deceit then why are they seeking for marriage in Russia?

Well, I wouldn't say that that Russian culture and RW (and RM) are about deceit. Some of my dearest friends are Russian and I really enjoy spending time in Russia. There are wonderful Russian people and there are some Russians that I would prefer to stay away from. What I deplore are the generalizations, good and bad. Saying that Russian women are all deceitful as this is their culture is no more accurate that putting all RW on a pedestal saying that they are infinitely superior to AW or other women. I try not to make sweeping judgments, but focus on individuals. Are they honest or deceitful? Again, you do not marry all RW, you marry one woman. You have to know whether she is honest or deceitful. The rest does not really matter.

[groovlstk]

I will disagree with you though, AJ, because to me it is all about being the man.  Or at least demanding that you are accounted for.   It all centers around your own self worth IMO.  I know you well enough to know you spoil the heck out of your wife as do I.  But we do not do so at the expense of selling ourselves short either.  Too many men in Maxx's stories have no sense of self worth.  If you don't think you deserve the respect yourself, who else is going to give it to you?
KenC

I just had to comment on this as I had a very similar episode in Moscow while courting my wife several years ago. At the time I was angry and willing to just walk away, which I did. She looked all over for me and after some tears everything was back to normal. In the aftermath I wasn't all that proud of my behavior as it seemed a bit childish. But no matter how much you love your gf/fiancee, it's only human to test each others' limits, particularly at the beginning of the relationship.

I was mindful that if the situation was reversed any time after she arrived, I'd get my just revenge, but so far so good - perhaps we got tired of that limits-testing thing

Not to drag Maxx's tortured men into this again, but I'd agree w/Ken's assessment. Your wife can be the center of your universe, but excusing behaviors that demean you while crawling back to more is bound to put any relationship into a downward spiral.

[catzenmouse]

I think you have to have two strong willed individuals in order to be successful at a cross-cultural marriage. This does not mean being over bearing or controlling in any way. The man has to be strong enough to deal with all the trials and issues that are coming (USCIS, culture shock, home sickness, etc.) and the woman has to be strong enough to work through all these issues from her side to get to that place where she is comfortable (or reasonably so) to live in a place where everything is basically opposite to the world she has known her whole life.

For any success that my wife and I have to date the credit goes 99.5% to her. The fact that she puts up with my grumpy PIA self proves that she has the strength to do just about anything! 

Part of the reason, IMO, we have some serious head butting here at RWD is because of these strong personality types. Aside from a few "wild ride" threads the membership here does a damn fine job of voicing their opinions and disagreements while still maintaining respect for the opposing opinions and the members who have them.

FWIW

[Ronnie]

I'm sorry if Doll is offended.  I really am. 
But, she and we understand that the culture there is demonstrably and indisputably corrupt.  On that I see no disagreement.

Doll wants to seperate the system from the culture.  I don't know how that can be done.  The two are bound to each other by centuries of practice. 

No one is saying that all RW are dishonest and corrupt.  Certainly we can agree that a large number are dishonest and corrupt...certainly a larger number than one can find in western culture.  It's a marvel to me how many emerge from that ethical cesspool with barely a taint on them.  But the taint is unavoidably and understandably present.

The test is how easily and how quickly that taint can be erased.  For many it's a lost cause, deception seems a congenital trait.  Others come to the west and feel a breath of fresh air - air they've been longing breathe their entire lives.

FSUW ethics, as with our own, are not either black or white.  Deceptiveness can be measured in degrees.  I believe one of the challenges for WM is to sort out those FSUW who will be eager to retrain their ethical world view from those who will ever see the west as a bountiful field of suckers.

[KenC]

Ronnie,
You know for years now I have heard about the Russian "white lies" and the "ethical cesspool" of the fsu, but I have to tell you that my wife's family is the most ethically moral and principaled group of people I have ever met.  I am sure they are the exception and not the rule.  But they would be exceptional people in any society.  They are honest to a fault, if you know what I mean.

I will say that the many many Russians I have come to know over the years, usually do fall into the catagories you describe here.  Including my own family members!
KenC

[mendeleyev]

Thank you, mendeleyev, anyway for refreshing course but I knew it long ago- before you were born.

Doll, my dear, I didn't realize you were so aged!  Its nice to have someone else well past 50 on this forum.  Perhaps we can start our own "senior" section.   

If you read carefully you'll notice that my post did not pretend to teach you new information.  My words indicated that you already knew.  But I'm glad you enjoyed the refresher course.

Nonetheless, as Ronnie so aptly points out, it is nigh impossible to divorce environment from practice.  To use a couple of examples:  We Orthodox understand that our systematic theology directs and determines our practical theology (how we practice faith is determined by what we believe).  Or we could use medicine as an example.  What a doctor believes about the theories of medicine will determine how she practices medicine.

The same in valid in relation to culture and personal virtue.  We could safely say that most Asians eat rice.  Are there some who don't?  Well, of course!  But that doesn't take away from the fact that we can very safely paint with a very broad stroke and say that most Asians eat rice.  The old expression is that "it is the exception which proves the rule (norm)."

[Pike]

It can be noted from some of the postings in this thread that some FSU people get upset at the words used in comments posted by Ronnie, and backed up by Mendeleyev and others.  You simply cannot separate the culture from the system.  And it takes very strong individuals to break away from the norm.  Probably many of the FSU wives of the men here and their relatives are those who have broken away from the norm. 

One of the interesting things I have noticed is that people within a system often do not notice the problems that are readily apparent to others.  When you live within a system, it looks normal to you.

For instance, all westerners readily notice the low level of service rendered in FSU countries.  But when I comment on this low service to my FSU business colleagues, they profess to not understand what I am talking about.  To them, it is the normal service, so it is not low, it is normal.

Another interesting, and quite shocking to me, situation relates to the various forms of cheating that goes on in the University system in FSU.  The most egregious form is payment for better grades than earned, payment for indication of course completion when no completion occurred, and even payment for complete diplomas.

Less serious perhaps is payment for someone to do homework assignments.  One of the finest FSU persons that I know is now a high school teacher.  But she quite blithely told me that she earned extra money while in graduate school by doing homework assignments for undergraduate students.  She would never keep an extra kopek if it were mistakenly given to her by a clerk, but she sees nothing wrong with earning the money for doing the homework assignments because . . . "it is done all the time."  It is the norm for her society, so she cannot fathom that it is terrible in my eyes.

[2tallbill]

Are there certain types of men or certain personalities of men that should not get involved with this process?

It has long been said here that RW are not for everyone.  I have always maintained that men with little or no dating skills should avoid this process as the possibility for them to be eaten by sharks is just too great.  Your thoughts?
KenC

For sure the pursuit of Russian women is not for everyone

[2tallbill]

A quote I really like is "RW are not for entry level dating." (think this was from jb) which, to me anyway, sums it all up in a nutshell.

The following are all intertwined but here are a few things that will paint a big red target on your forehead:
 - Weak personality type
 - Lack of self confidence
 - Submissiveness
 - Indecisiveness
 - Prone to depression or mood problems
 - Lack of patience

Plenty of other things could be added here. It all boils down to: if a man is not comfortable in his own skin and has a lack of social skills he's better off sticking with the local scene.

FWIW

There is a local homely librarian or a near sited cashier at the supermarket who isn't too fat that
has decent character that would be glad to have you and would be fine to marry. Going after a
hot Russian woman, is pure folly for the inexperienced.