bringing in money to Ukrain

[viking]

I have always used ATMs with no problems. But I do notify my bank of my travel plans. I will call them and say to expect my card to be used in Russia between certain dates (giving myself some flex time to be safe). This way I can avoid some of the security procedures that might be invoked when they see overseas transactions. Further, I have never needed more than a few hundred dollars a day, so I also ask for limitations on withdrawals. Walking around with thousands in cash is crazy.

[Pike]

I have always used ATMs with no problems.

My experience was the same as yours.  I had always used ATMs with no problems . . . until the problem hit me big time.

The man had no problems running across the busy interstate; until he had problems.

The woman had no problems finding babysitters; until she had problems.

The boy had no problems with his school work; until he had problems.

The girl had no problems with boys;  until she had problems.

We mostly don't have problems with anything; until we have problems.

I would much rather lose my few thousand in cash I take with me than again have the experience of scammers within the FSU banking system running through my financial accounts.  There are no foolproof safeguards.  You can have daily withdrawal limits that are ignored by the financial system.  Your accounts can run dry and the banking system will still pay money out and go after you for reimbursement.  It is an unbelievable nightmare.

[Misha]

We mostly don't have problems with anything; until we have problems.

A woman was killed in the forest by a black bear. A freak occurrence that happens every few years. Should I stop going hiking in the forest because a bear could kill me?

It all comes does to calculated risk. I have never read of widespread ATM fraud when using the bank machines of reputable banks. Can you site any evidence of widespread Sberbank bank fraud on their customers using their ATM bank cards in a Sberbank?

[wxman]

Credit card fraud is huge in the US. Does that mean I should leave the US? I have used my atm card many times in Ukraine. Yes there are risks just like there are in the US. I have been a victim of fraud in the US. Just remember, part of the high interest rates one pays is due to fraud, and also bribes banks pay to hackers that break into their systems with all your data on it. If people only knew how many millions the banks pay out each year to hackers so they won't sabotage their systems, they might think twice about ever owning a credit card or atm card.

[msmoby_ru]

My experience was the same as yours.  I had always used ATMs with no problems . . . until the problem hit me big time.

As someone who travelled / travels to the FSU ( Ukraine / Russia ) at lot - over the last five years - using plastic, and never having a problem with card cloning ( YET).. I have found the "perfect" solution... a visa cash card..

When my Wife is in the FSU, I go on the internet and put some money on the visa cash card account, from the main account... she can then draw it out in the local currency - immediately. .. no one can take what ain't there...   The commission ain't bad and it is quicker and more reliable than using WU.

We leave nought in the cash card account -she takes what is sent... I send it minutes before she goes to the ATM.

There have been times when I'm often caught out in the FSU, as STILL, many places in Krasnoyarsk, and provincial cities DON'T take plastic.. so I carry one of these cash cards, too.. It has saved my life several times.

FSU ATMs often don't want to dole out anything like your daily / available limit - so it can involve a trip to more than one ATM ..lastly, if it is your first time.. an ATM is a  known as "BANKOMAT".


Hope this helps

[ScottinCrimea]

My experience was the same as yours.  I had always used ATMs with no problems . . . until the problem hit me big time.

The man had no problems running across the busy interstate; until he had problems.

The woman had no problems finding babysitters; until she had problems.

The boy had no problems with his school work; until he had problems.

The girl had no problems with boys;  until she had problems.

We mostly don't have problems with anything; until we have problems.

I would much rather lose my few thousand in cash I take with me than again have the experience of scammers within the FSU banking system running through my financial accounts.  There are no foolproof safeguards.  You can have daily withdrawal limits that are ignored by the financial system.  Your accounts can run dry and the banking system will still pay money out and go after you for reimbursement.  It is an unbelievable nightmare.

And the man had no problem carrying $4000 around until he got mugged.  You choose your risk, I'll choose mine.

[msmoby_ru]

I would much rather lose my few thousand in cash I take with me than again have the experience of scammers within the FSU banking system running through my financial accounts.  There are no foolproof safeguards. 

Come on Pike! You know the Ukraine well enough ! WHAT can be safer than drawing cash from inside a bank - using a cash card - having just put what you need on it over the net -especially a western (Austrian) owned one like Raiffeisen
http://www.aval.ua/eng/

They post a map of their ATMs   http://www.aval.ua/eng/branches/kiev/kiev/


They even usually have security guardss and surveillance cameras

and it is so MUCH safer than walking around with 4,000 USD...

[Misha]

and it is so MUCH safer than walking around with 4,000 USD...

I agree.

Option 1: I get beaten and killed for my cash;
Option 2: I get robbed electronically by people who do not see me and if I set it up properly the most they can get is a few hundred bucks.

I, like Scott and Moby, would prefer option 2 in terms of risks.

[krimster]

Hi Mark,
   Not to be too pedantic, but we really don't say "the Ukraine" anymore.  Kinda like saying Sebastopol instead of Sevastopol.
"Before the country's independence in 1991, the country was often referred to as The Ukraine. The term Ukraine rather than The Ukraine is now predominant in diplomacy[6] and journalism"       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

In regards to the subject of money.  In my 10 years of visiting the FSU (including three of residency), I ALWAYS brought my cash with me, always!
I kept it in one of those "hidden wallets" and had it wrapped under my upper thigh.  During my ten years, never lost a penny, and only once
ever encountered a pickpocket who got nothing.  ATM's have several issues.  First is security, as Pike correctly noted your card number and PIN go
directly to the bank, some employees there can access this information.  I've dealt quite a bit with bank employees, and they are generally pathetic human specimens with zero integrity.  I encountered one person who was scammed this way, the only place
he used his card was at an ATM, I helped him contact his bank to try and clear it up, I never heard the final outcome, but since it was a debit card he may have had to accept the charge, it WAS a very big hassle for him (and for me with phone and internet use to assist him).  Met another guy who used his card at a restaurant in Balaclava, next day his card was on hold, seems some of the staff at the restaurant decided a bigger tip was in order.  Needless to say, both parties suffered major setbacks in their travel plans.  I've used ATM's a few times in Ukraine, and can see that another aspect of security is "personal space", this concept doesn't exist in quite the same way in Ukraine as it does in the West, so be prepared to have someone standing 6 inches away from you while you key in your PIN, and watch you count the money, having a guard there will do you absolutely no good at all after you walk away...  Also Ukraine lives in the third world, this means machines have a higher probability of malfunction, although I haven't seen this happen firsthand, I've seen pretty much everything else break down in Ukraine at one time or the other.  Also it should be noted that during periods of political turmoil, the ATM's are shut down because everyone is drawing out foreign currency.  During the Orange Revolution the ATM's all over Ukraine were shut down for roughly a week.

Then there's the issue of cost.  ATM's charge a pretty high fee compared to accessing your money in your own country, if you take hryvnia, be prepared to get a pretty lousy exchange rate on top of that.

My way of handling money, keep most of my cash in my concealed wallet, keep some spending money, or money I will need short term in a readily accessible place, but not a pants pocket or wallet.  This worked great!

Don't exchange in airports, etc, try "downtown" in whatever city you're visiting, there'll be lots of banks who will post their exchange rates, it's best to go with another person as well.  If you take a taxi, don't take it coming out of the bank, just strenuously exercise common sense.

The biggest danger is having someone "know" how much you've got on you, never, never, let ANYONE know how much you have, and this is the risk of withdrawing from banks, someone there WILL KNOW.  This was always a major stress point for me when I was buying and selling property in Ukraine all for cash, lucky I got through it all!

[ScottinCrimea]

Although I disagree with krimster about the relative safety of ATM's, he does make one good point and that is regarding the banks limiting withdrawals during a political crisis.  While I wouldn't expect this to happen all that often, in fact just once, during the Orange Revolution, in the past 6 years that I recall, it did cause problems for some who hadn't anticipated it.  Still, as long as you have a small cash reserve, as most suggest, you can weather something such as this.  As far as his example of the restaurant in Balaclava, I would never use a credit card at a store or restaurant in the FSU as I agree that the risks of this happening are higher there (Though I don't have statistics and couldn't really say how much higher).

[Catman]

The last trip from Ukraine I was buying some things at the duty free shop in Kiev and handed over a $100 US bill. The girl said it was no good. I told her I just got it yesterday at a bank in Ukraine and she said "that means nothing. It is counterfeit". So I just spent it here

[ScottinCrimea]

While $100 bills are great for exchanging at the money exchange places, they are practically worthless for regular shopping because alomst no one has that much change.  IN some places I had problems getting change if I paid with a 50 hrv note. and even if they had the change, they would give you dirty looks.  I learned to always keep small denominations on me whenever possible.

[msmoby_ru]

Hi Mark,
   Not to be too pedantic, but we really don't say "the Ukraine" anymore. 

OMG..PLElease don't tell me you expect me, or anyone to believe everything in Wikipedia is factually correct.... !  the "the" in Ukraine has never offended anyone I've talked to in five years of going there, and I dated a journo who runs the largest independent news agency in Ukraine... Surely this all stems from Russian / Ukrainian not using the definite article..?

Kinda like saying Sebastopol instead of Sevastopol.

Agreed... preaching to the converted, here;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/veta_mark/2463358343/

In regards to the subject of money.  In my 10 years of visiting the FSU (including three of residency), I ALWAYS brought my cash with me, always!

..and it has changed a lot in 10 years.. sorry, but this just doesn't apply now - especially in a big city with lots of bankomats.. and that applies to Sevastopol.

Then there's the issue of cost.  ATM's charge a pretty high fee compared to accessing your money in your own country, if you take hryvnia, be prepared to get a pretty lousy exchange rate on top of that.

shop around -there are banks that don't charge a fee for using the card abroad !

Don't exchange in airports, etc, try "downtown" in whatever city you're visiting, there'll be lots of banks who will post their exchange rates, it's best to go with another person as well.  If you take a taxi, don't take it coming out of the bank, just strenuously exercise common sense.

Good advice

The biggest danger is having someone "know" how much you've got on you, never, never, let ANYONE know how much you have, and this is the risk of withdrawing from banks, someone there WILL KNOW.  This was always a major stress point for me when I was buying and selling property in Ukraine all for cash, lucky I got through it all!

May be keep your loot abroad?!.. but Yep, folk will get to know your business ..

If it is such a worry, why would you stay there?! ... OK. OK, you live in a beautiful part of the world

[krimster]

Greetings Mark,
   BTW, like your name!  There is an issue involved with having the article "the" in front of Ukraine, and SOME people WILL be offended by it's inclusion, I have in fact met quite a few, this offense stems from the political sensitivities of Ukraine's independence, changing it's name from "The" Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic to simply Ukraine.  You'll find pretty much all modern style guides will skip the "the", this mainly occurred in the last 4 years or so.

Yup, a lot has changed in Ukraine, but the more it changes, the more it stays the same, even though my first FSU trip was in 1996, I was a three year resident in Sevastopol which ended last year, so my experience is pretty current.  You can also experience a lot more as a resident in three years compared to a series of visits.  Sure you can use ATM's.  and even your credit card in some places like travel agencies, but it is risky, especially for travelers.  If this is your primary source of cash and a problem occurs, your trip will suffer for it.  Cash on the other hand has none of these drawbacks, and you can have a card for backup.  Before I lived there carrying cash worked perfectly for me without a hitch and never a worry.  On the other hand I met two tourists to Crimea out of a sample size of 20 or so who had MAJOR problems with their card being abused and they had to completely stop their activities and deal immediately with this problem.  Maybe some banks won't charge you for accessing abroad, but my understanding was that it was the Ukrainian bank who imposed the fee.  In Sevastopol there were no offices of foreign banks, so I wouldn't be able to directly access using my "host" bank.  I think other than Kyiv, this would be the case in the rest of Ukraine.  I did a quick mental calculation of what I would have spent in Service fees over my many FSU trips and made an estimate of hundreds of dollars saved, and this doesn't include any reduced exchanged rate from ATM's which would probably be even more.  So to be honest, I like the cash approach.  Also, for some emotional reason, I just like having the cash with me and not just a piece of plastic. 

I no longer live in Sevastopol, moved out last year, my wife's family almost exclusively works in the Simferopol and Sevastopol militsia and SBU.  One of her cousins told me that for 50 USD pretty much any SBU officer would sell a folder with all information on anyone including bank account information, etc., this made me VERY nervous over there!

Cheers!

[Pike]

I agree.

Option 1: I get beaten and killed for my cash;
Option 2: I get robbed electronically by people who do not see me and if I set it up properly the most they can get is a few hundred bucks.

I, like Scott and Moby, would prefer option 2 in terms of risks.

This makes no sense at all.

In your option 1, the first step is that you are going to be assaulted.  Now are you saying that you have a greater chance that you will be killed when your cash is taken compared to someone who has no cash to be taken?

In your option 2, you are sadly mistaken that the most they can get is a few hundred.  I will explain more in a later post.

[Pike]

And the man had no problem carrying $4000 around until he got mugged.  You choose your risk, I'll choose mine.

A person will be mugged whether he/she has $4000 or $10.  This is assuming the person with the $4000 does not advertise it; which I did not.

[Pike]

Come on Pike! You know the Ukraine well enough ! WHAT can be safer than drawing cash from inside a bank - using a cash card - having just put what you need on it over the net -especially a western (Austrian) owned one like Raiffeisen
http://www.aval.ua/eng/

You are sending a mixed message here.  The part about 'having just put on it card what you need' is not too bad, but most will read your message that it is safe to use cash card inside a bank.  As I noted and you also mentioned in a previous posting;  the major problem now is cloned cards.  So it doesn't help to just go inside a bank.

Also, I will take some exception (but not as strong) to your idea that you are safe from further problems using the 'prepaid' cash cards.  Read the fine print and you will see that you are liable for more than youl have put on the card.  The good news in this case is that they have to come after you for the money, versus it being gone from your account and you having to try to get it back.  More later on this below.

[Doll]

BTW, like your name!  There is an issue involved with having the article "the" in front of Ukraine, and SOME people WILL be offended by it's inclusion, I have in fact met quite a few, this offense stems from the political sensitivities of Ukraine's independence, changing it's name from "The" Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic to simply Ukraine.  You'll find pretty much all modern style guides will skip the "the", this mainly occurred in the last 4 years or so.

There is a strict and simple rule for geograghical names , it has nothing to do with "all modern styles".

[Pike]

Yes, of course, I agree with those who contend there is risk in everything we do.  However, it seems that most have not heard of the extent of the risk with cash cards.  So I will tell of my experience and that of a business colleague.

In my case, close to $3,000 was taken from my checking account via a cloned card in Russia.  After a few weeks of hassle with my bank, they agreed to put the money back into my account.  But they then sent me a registered letter informing me that they would not reimburse me in the future if I used my cash card in a list of countries that they spelled out.  The countries listed were virtually all of the FSU countries plus a couple of others.

I, of course, told my story to many people.  At one business meeting that I told my story, a man piped up and said everthing is a risk; even getting out of bed in the  morning is a risk.  Much like the bear story told above.

A few weeks later, this same man was on a business trip to Ukraine.  His wife started getting calls from their  bank about large withdrawals.  She had trouble getting in contact with the husband, but finally did.  After they determined the withdrawals were not his, the wife contacted the bank and put a stop on the card.

However, in just four days, the cloned card people had taken around $26,000 from their checking account.  They only had about $6,000 in their account . . . but they had a Ready Reserve or Overdraft provision tied into a Home Equity loan for $20,000.

There was a $1,000 daily withdrawal limit on the account, but it did not properly function when International withdrawals occurred.

The bank refused to refund the money and after several months of back and forth, the bank filed lawsuit to get repaid the $20,000.  The man and woman hired an attorney and countersued to get relieved of the $20,000 debt and get their $6,000 back.  The attorney fees are now up to around $5,000.

Meanwhile, the man was  transferred to a different city.  He cannot sell the house because it has the Home Equity lien against it.  So he is now paying for two houses.

So yes, there can be more than just 'a few hundred' involved.

In discussing this case with bankers and lawyers, it was revealed that it is not foolproof to avoid the Overdraft provision.  This is because the fine print says the bank can recover any monies paid out above what is in your account.  But it is best to not have a lien on your house involved.

Those interested can Google debit card fraud, credit card fraud, etc., and read of additional similar stories.

[Pike]

There is a strict and simple rule for geographical names , it has nothing to do with "all modern styles".

Doll is quite correct.

There are only two groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom.

Geographical regions such as the Arctic, the Atlantic, the North, the West, and the prairies all require the definite article, but these are not countries.

It is because of this second grouping that The Ukraine is bothersome to citizens of Ukraine, and probably the reason that Russians persist in the usage.  There is some thought that Ukraine was in past history referred to as "the borderland," "the steppes," or "the prairies' which would require the article.  Also, there was once the concept of The Ukraine SSR.  In both instances, those who persist in using The Ukraine are implying that Ukraine is not a true country, but instead is merely a region or a part of another entity.

[Mir]

Interesting discussion about the safe(st) way to bring money into Ukraine.
Personally I am on the side of Scott and Co. as I have used ATM cards and credit cards without problem so far. Also I have yet to be mugged or robbed so I guess carrying some cash would be reasonably safe.
As for the ATM I would use a debt card linked to an account with around $500- $1000 available and no overdraft etc. So if someone clones it I will not lose more then that. I can transfer funds into the account on-line. So if I need to withdraw money I will transfer say $500 into the account, trot over to the ATM and withdraw the cash leaving maybe $10 for the scammer. Next day I will do the same. So the scammer after they have cloned card etc will need to time it perfectly in the window of opportunity when I am walking from my apartment to the ATM after making the transfer between my accounts. Luckily I pay no commission or charges for withdrawls made oversees.
Yes occasionally ATM machines do eat cards so I keep 3-4 with me and at least one is hidden in the apartment.
So far I have been the victim of fraud 3 times,it was always the credit card that was used, one episode was during a visit to Switzerland, one to Dubai and one to USA. So I guess to be totally safe just bin all your cards and carry cash wherever you go. Anyway so far the card company did not make any noises when paying up, maybe they will act different when I get scammed in Ukraine.

[Pike]

As someone who travelled / travels to the FSU ( Ukraine / Russia ) at lot - over the last five years - using plastic, and never having a problem with card cloning ( YET).. I have found the "perfect" solution... a visa cash card..

When my Wife is in the FSU, I go on the internet and put some money on the visa cash card account, from the main account... she can then draw it out in the local currency - immediately. .. no one can take what ain't there...   The commission ain't bad and it is quicker and more reliable than using WU.

This  is very interesting.  Can you tell us more.  For instance, I have such a Visa cash card issued by Green Dot.

However, this and all other such cards  that I investigated  do not allow me to 'go on the Internet' and put money on it.  They only allow money to be put on in two ways: 1) Go buy a refill card at hundreds of places in USA or 2) automatically deposit your payroll  check  onto it.  No sane person would use alternative 2.  Alternative 1 cannot be accomplished by the person him/herself while in FSU.  So alternative 1 requires help from someone in USA which is about as bad as asking someone to do the WU to you.  Plus alternative 1 has upper limits of $300-500.

So I am very interested in what you were able to achieve.  Who issues the Visa card you are referring to?  I want to look at their web site that describes their card. 

Thanks

[Misha]

However, in just four days, the cloned card people had taken around $26,000 from their checking account.  They only had about $6,000 in their account . . . but they had a Ready Reserve or Overdraft provision tied into a Home Equity loan for $20,000.

Rather than saying never use ATM cards in Ukraine/Russia, it would be smarter to say, set up a bank account with a limited amount of cash and no ties to any other bank accounts. Then, you can leave checks with a friend/relative to deposit as needed. What Mir suggests addresses both potential problems of fraud, while having the option of using ATM cards and not having to lug around with you so much cash.

The type of fraud you are describing is not limited to Ukraine. I have heard of similar cases here in Canada.

[Pike]

As for the ATM I would use a debt card linked to an account with around $500- $1000 available and no overdraft etc. So if someone clones it I will not lose more then that. I can transfer funds into the account on-line.

No, you are not correct re 'I will not lose more then that.'  The account you use to transfer funds 'from' is linked to the account you transfer 'into.'  The banking system (particularly where international systems are involved) does not always catch that all the money is gone from an account and will pay out additional sums.  The system also does not always catch daily limits either.  If you read the fine print, you will find that your bank has the right to go into your other accounts to make up the money paid out of what you thought was the safe account.

And, even where you have two different banks involved, the fine print allows them to come after you anyway.  But in this latter situation, they have to try to get the money from you.  In the first case, they take the money and you try to get it back.

[msmoby_ru]

This  is very interesting.  Can you tell us more. 
So I am very interested in what you were able to achieve.  Who issues the Visa card you are referring to?  I want to look at their web site that describes their card. 

Thanks

Sure.. it is a Cypriot Bank.. it was owned by Barclays and it is now mostly owned by the Cypriot Orthodox Church !!

http://www.hellenicbank.com/HB/content/en/index.jsp?lang=en


I like them because

1/ Cyprus has the lowest sales tax in the EU

2/ Cyprus has low income tax rates

3/ Cyprus is used to dealing with FSU banks

4/ The Hellenic is progressive re it's internet banking options

OK, don't want to sound like a salesman.. I just bank with 'em

I earn my crust saving folk paying tax - paying less to banks, etc.

The card I refer to is a P card - a Visa cash card - I am not in CY , now, but having sold it's virtues, it may well be that it has been withdrawn and repulsed by a new card.. but my Wife, her son, Mum, still use 'em

We simply go on line and transfer a sum onto the card.. and it is INSTANTLY available - to use anywhere.. We've used on in UA/ RU/ UK /D / TR / IRL - no problem - if someone WAS to steal it.. compromise it.. there's nothing there TO steal...

This bank also does a marvellous Electron card.. one can only draw what is on the account.. but you can create a virtual credit card with a limit in USD/ Euro / GBP, etc, and allow that value to be available for 24 /48 hrs for internet transactions.. if someone tries to HIT that card again - it doesn't exist

You can't open a CY based bank account unless you live there or have a CY LTD company.. but this is easy to do.. it just takes TIME- it is a Mediterranean island that managed to get into the EU !

OK Sales pitch for CY over...  down side.. there's water rationing at the mo - some places down to 36 hours a week.. but if you have a FSU woman - she will LOVE it..." Malinki Moscow on the More ".

I'm off to bed... I just raced a laser yacht for the first time in 2.5 years and I have muscles reminding me they haven't been used in a while...