bringing in money to Ukrain

[Pike]

Sure.. it is a Cypriot Bank.. it was owned by Barclays and it is now mostly owned by the Cypriot Orthodox Church !!

http://www.hellenicbank.com/HB/content/en/index.jsp?lang=en

You can't open a CY based bank account unless you live there or have a CY LTD company.. but this is easy to do.. it just takes TIME- it is a Mediterranean island that managed to get into the EU !

OK, well this rules most of us out from being able to get a card from that bank.

But seriously folks, does anyone know where such a card can be obtained in USA that works like msmoby related and that is not hindered by the restrictions of the Green Dot card that I discussed earlier??

[Mir]

I was pretty sure it is not right but I just double checked with my bank.
Under no circumstances, within UK or overseas will it be possible to withdraw money above the funds available in the account to which the card is linked.
The bank will never access any of my other accounts to make up the balance if the attempted withdrawl accedes the funds available in the account.
The bank will not transfer funds between my accounts without my permission.
The bank will confirm the above in writing.

So I guess I am OK

[Pike]

This bank also does a marvellous Electron card.. one can only draw what is on the account.. but you can create a virtual credit card with a limit in USD/ Euro / GBP, etc, and allow that value to be available for 24 /48 hrs for internet transactions.. if someone tries to HIT that card again - it doesn't exist

Yes, this is a great feature for buying on the Internet.  I first obtained this feature on a Master Card issued by MBNA.   Bank of America bought MBNA a couple of years back and now they have this feature.  I have heard CITI cards have this feature now, but haven't looked it up yet.

The B of A procedure is quite cumbersome to use and takes a lot of time, particularly for those not on a high speed internet connection, but it is a Godsend to avoid  the problems with giving your credit card info on the Internet.

[Pike]

I was pretty sure it is not right but I just double checked with my bank.
Under no circumstances, within UK or overseas will it be possible to withdraw money above the funds available in the account to which the card is linked.
The bank will never access any of my other accounts to make up the balance if the attempted withdrawl accedes the funds available in the account.
The bank will not transfer funds between my accounts without my permission.
The bank will confirm the above in writing.

So I guess I am OK

I seriously doubt such a letter would ever get past the bank's legal department.
But if it does, would  you please post it here . . . with all names  removed of course.

And, by the way, what is 'accedes the funds'  ??  :-))

[ScottinCrimea]

Maybe I'm missing something here.  I have a regular checking account here in the US and our daughter in Ukraine has an ATM card that she uses to withdraw money from it.  I simply elected not to have overdraft protection.  If she does go over, the bank will either cover it if it is a small amount or reject it and I'll get dinged for a $25 charge.  I can transfer money online anytime from my other accounts but it is not tied to these accounts in such a way that they would take money from these other accounts.  I transfer the money when she needs it so even if they were to access the account they wouldn't get much and it would have to be within a narrow time frame.  She had the card stolen once and I immediately canceled it and arranged for another, no harm done.  It just doesn't seem that difficult to me.

[Misha]

Maybe I'm missing something here.  I have a regular checking account here in the US and our daughter in Ukraine has an ATM card that she uses to withdraw money from it.  I simply elected not to have overdraft protection.  If she does go over, the bank will either cover it if it is a small amount or reject it and I'll get dinged for a $25 charge.

If I don't have overdraft protection and I try to withdraw more money than is in my account, I won't be able to withdraw anything because of insufficient funds.

There are also other measures you can take to make life difficult for thieves. You can, in Canada, send money via Email Money Transfer. If I have an account in one Canadian bank, I can wire money to an account in another Canadian bank via online banking and e-mail. Just as long as you keep the two cards in separate places and make sure that your password is not easy to guess, it would be very difficult for someone to steal your information simply by you using one ATM card to withdraw money.

[msmoby_ru]

I was pretty sure it is not right but I just double checked with my bank.
Under no circumstances, within UK or overseas will it be possible to withdraw money above the funds available in the account to which the card is linked.
The bank will never access any of my other accounts to make up the balance if the attempted withdrawl accedes the funds available in the account.
The bank will not transfer funds between my accounts without my permission.
The bank will confirm the above in writing.

So I guess I am OK

Hi Mir

If you use a Debit card, it is possible to go into a debit / overdraft situation - due to delayed overseas charges / withdrawals coming through.

If you have an "Visa electron" card - one can't go in the red.. The banks in Cyprus prefer to issue these card to all foreigners - unless you ask - as they know they won't be left with debit balances when folk leave the island.

Naturally, if someone compromises one's PIN or clones the card they *empty* the account. So, I have a travel account where I put $500, in case I need / want to use plastic rather than cash.

[Pike]

I can transfer money online anytime from my other accounts but it is not tied to these accounts in such a way that they would take money from these other accounts. 

Scott, are these accounts at the same bank?  If so, they are tied whether or not you think so and your bank can, on it's own, take money from accounts to make up for money overdrawn on other accounts. 

I have told you and moby tells you above that, due to delays in processing of international accounts, they can become overdrawn.  This can even happen on charges just within the USA.  I have read the fine print and it clearly states (on my Green Dot prepaid cash card for instance) that 'sometimes charges are not deducted in a timely manner and in that case I am liable for any amounts charged in excess of the balance left on the card.'

[Pike]

If I don't have overdraft protection and I try to withdraw more money than is in my account, I won't be able to withdraw anything because of insufficient funds.

Not true.  See moby's comments re delayed transactions

" it would be very difficult for someone to steal your information simply by you using one ATM card to withdraw money. "

Not true.  You don't seem to be understanding the concept of cloned cards used by those within the bankin system who also capture your PIN number from one of your transactions

[Pike]

Maybe I'm missing something here. 

It just doesn't seem that difficult to me.

Scott, not to beat a dead horse, but you still seem to keep thinking that, since nothing yet has happened to you, that nothing is likely to happen.

Again, I repeat that I know there is a risk in many things that we do and we must do something.  But I keep looking for a better way of doing it and do not poo poo those who have been burned just because I have not yet been burned in a particular way.

[Misha]

Not true? Again, I have no idea how American banks work, but when I was in Russia and tried to withdraw more money that I had in my account, the transaction was refused. Over a period of 13 years, there were never any exceptions.

Again, I understand the concept of cloned cards. Here is my scenario: I use debit card from BANK A where I keep a small sum of money. Then I have an account in BANK B where I never use the debit card but send money to BANK A over the internet. Where is the risk? Unless both my internet activity is being monitored as well as my card info from BANK A being cloned, the odds of my account in Bank B being hacked by the same people who cloned my debit ATM card from Bank A are pretty slim.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott, are these accounts at the same bank?  If so, they are tied whether or not you think so and your bank can, on it's own, take money from accounts to make up for money overdrawn on other accounts. 

I have told you and moby tells you above that, due to delays in processing of international accounts, they can become overdrawn.  This can even happen on charges just within the USA.  I have read the fine print and it clearly states (on my Green Dot prepaid cash card for instance) that 'sometimes charges are not deducted in a timely manner and in that case I am liable for any amounts charged in excess of the balance left on the card.'

Pike, This account is indeed in the same bank as some other accounts, but the point has already been tested.  On a couple of occasions, our daughter tried to withdraw the funds before I made the transfer and the transaction was simply denied.  Recently, because of the drop in the dollar, she tried to withdraw her usual amount in hrvn and it was denied because the dollar amount I had transferred to the account didn't quite cover it anymore.  At least with this account, based on what actually happens, not what is speculated could happen, it is pretty safe.  If the concern is that money will be taken from other accounts, just open a single account with a different bank for this purpose.

You choose your risks based on your past experience as do we all, but frankly, I just don't see how I can get burned with the method I use beyond the case where they use perfect timing to extract a couple of hundred dollars.

[Pike]

Pike, This account is indeed in the same bank as some other accounts, but the point has already been tested.  On a couple of occasions, our daughter tried to withdraw the funds before I made the transfer and the transaction was simply denied.  Recently, because of the drop in the dollar, she tried to withdraw her usual amount in hrvn and it was denied because the dollar amount I had transferred to the account didn't quite cover it anymore.  

No, that is  not quite the same as moby and myself have talked about.  There is the situation that international transactions, particularly those done by crooks within the banking system, will not be posted to your account in a timely manner.  So, on a particular day a cloned card could take $10,000 from your account that only has $500 in it.  In this case, your bank will quickly try to transfer funds from all your other accounts to cover the overage.

If the concern is that money will be taken from other accounts, just open a single account with a different bank for this purpose.

Yes, I think this is a much safer route, but not totally safe because the bank can still come after you for overages.  But at least they have to try to get the money from you rather than just transfer it from your other accounts.  However, there can be not inconsiderable costs involved here.  Usually hefty monthly fees involved where you do not keep minimums in your account or have other accounts at the same bank.  Also, there can be fees to transfer monies between banks.  Also, quite unbelievable to me, it can take 2-3 days to wire transfer between banks in the USA.

[Pike]

Not true? Again, I have no idea how American banks work, but when I was in Russia and tried to withdraw more money that I had in my account, the transaction was refused. Over a period of 13 years, there were never any exceptions.

OK, so it has not yet happened to you.  We are all very happy for you!!  :-))  But it seems a little strange . . . are you saying you frequently tried to withdraw more money than you had in your account??  :-))  Needed money quickly for flowers, vodka, condoms or what??  :-))

Again, I understand the concept of cloned cards. Here is my scenario: I use debit card from BANK A where I keep a small sum of money. Then I have an account in BANK B where I never use the debit card but send money to BANK A over the internet. Where is the risk? Unless both my internet activity is being monitored as well as my card info from BANK A being cloned, the odds of my account in Bank B being hacked by the same people who cloned my debit ATM card from Bank A are pretty slim.

OK, yes in the case you have spelled out, you have no chance of losing money from Bank B by someone cloning your card from Bank A.  But please answer this:  Do you really do this, or are you just talking about something that you think is a good idea for the future.  And, if you are already doing it, what are the charges you incur from Bank A where you keep only a small balance, what are the fees you pay to transfer money on the internet between banks, and how many days does it take from initiating the wire transfer until the funds are actually available in the second bank?

[Misha]

OK, so it has not yet happened to you.  We are all very happy for you!!  :-))  But it seems a little strange . . . are you saying you frequently tried to withdraw more money than you had in your account??  :-))  Needed money quickly for flowers, vodka, condoms or what??  :-))

Well, I was living in Russia for extended periods (months), so yes I bought at some point all of the above as well as food and paying for rent and all the other regular stuff you buy when living somewhere.

Do you really do this, or are you just talking about something that you think is a good idea for the future.

I never had any problems. I have an account, money goes in, money goes out. If the thieves had exquisite timing and knew the exact minute when money would be deposited, then they could maybe get a thousand dollars. However, organized crime in Russia is usually not that well organized!

[Pike]

I never had any problems. I have an account, money goes in, money goes out.

What about the rest of my question:  "And, if you are already doing it, what are the charges you incur from Bank A where you keep only a small balance, what are the fees you pay to transfer money on the internet between banks, and how many days does it take from initiating the wire transfer until the funds are actually available in the second bank?"

[Mir]

Not true? Again, I have no idea how American banks work, but when I was in Russia and tried to withdraw more money that I had in my account, the transaction was refused

Yes that is indeed what will happen, also a coupe of times I tried to withdraw more then the daily limit (not able to calculate exact amount due to exchange rate etc) it refused saying the amount is above your withdrawl limit.

I will post when/if I get something from the bank.

Certainly we should not po po those who have suffered but at the same time we should use our own personal knowledge/experience as well and don't do everything based on someone else's experience.

[groovlstk]

I think what Pike is saying that not everyone grasps is that there is a certain amount of latency in these banking systems. When you try to withdraw money, the funds that are shown as available that day may not be up to date.

[msmoby_ru]

Scott, not to beat a dead horse, but you still seem to keep thinking that, since nothing yet has happened to you, that nothing is likely to happen.

Again, I repeat that I know there is a risk in many things that we do and we must do something.  But I keep looking for a better way of doing it and do not poo poo those who have been burned just because I have not yet been burned in a particular way.

Hi Pike
I also think.. as you're quoting me, that walking around with 4k usd in cash on one's self isn't the "better way"...

If you have a plastic card with a small amount available on it, topped up via the net.. it should be enough for most, and very disapointing for the scammer - who would much rather have the stuffed money belt

Also, the visa electron card that emulates a credit card - that is only good for one transaction - takes 3 minutes to setup - from start to finish on an analogue / dial up connection over the internet .. less than a minute on a fast connection..

[Misha]

What about the rest of my question:  "And, if you are already doing it, what are the charges you incur from Bank A where you keep only a small balance, what are the fees you pay to transfer money on the internet between banks, and how many days does it take from initiating the wire transfer until the funds are actually available in the second bank?"

Fee for the e-mail bank transfer: $1.50. As for time: "An email message tells the recipient that the money is ready. If the recipient collects the money through online banking with a participating financial institution, the transfer takes place instantly."

I have never done it, as I never had the need, but if I were really worried about my banking info being stolen and my debit/ATM card being duplicated, this would be the cheapest and simplest route to go.

I have spent months in Russia with cash strapped to me. Hated every minute. Always worried about being mugged. I, for one, prefer a debit card. 

[msmoby_ru]

Not true? Again, I have no idea how American banks work, but when I was in Russia and tried to withdraw more money that I had in my account, the transaction was refused. Over a period of 13 years, there were never any exceptions.

 

Hi Misha

just to reiterate.. it IS possible to take more from your account than available from a current ( checking?) or savings account if it is a DEBIT / Credit card.. there *might* be a floor limit below which some transactions aren't authorised or they are delayed in processing. Sometimes local charges / commission, etc take some time to be processed.

If you use an electron or similar card - the card is authorised every time and the banks block an amount to cover local bank charges. You can often have less money available than you should, because your bank is waiting to see the final charges.... The visa cash card I use blocks 10- 15% of the transferred amount, for up to five working days to cover this.

As for speed of transfer... I have the option to receive an sms( text msg)  to a Cyprus based mobile (cell ) phone and I forwarde this to my Wife and she knows she can go to the Bankomat....

Downside.. sometimes LOUSY latency ( delays ) on sms/ test message networks

[Misha]

just to reiterate.. it IS possible to take more from your account than available from a current ( checking?) or savings account if it is a DEBIT / Credit card..

I have no doubt this is possible for American banks. To reiterate in turn, in my experience CANADIAN banks will NEVER let you take out more money than you have in your account from a debit card (our system is different from yours). I have been using debit cards in Canada now for 20 years and I have NEVER been able to take out more money than was there.

[ScottinCrimea]

Sorry Pike, but I just don't agree with you.  Just to check, I called my bank and asked about the specific scenarios you mentioned.  They said that they would never take funds from another account to cover an overdraft on the ATM account and that they cannot do that without my express permission.

Any attempt to withdraw more than is in the account will be immediately denied.  The online system takes seconds at most to verify the amount in the account.  Even the so called crooks within the banking system would have to get around this as well as the daily limit of $300 per 24 hours for cash and $1500 for purchases.  There would have to be crooks in each of the three verifications they go through for international transactions to get around both the limits of what is in the account and the daily limit.  They said that with the rapid system of verification, even with international transactions, there is really no latency for these types of transactions.  They can't get the money money until the amount is verified so if there is a delay, it is them that has to wait - no verification, no money.  As simple as that.

No one but myself and my daughter knows the PIN code.  Not even the banks have access to that.  Now if by some chance they are able to get the PIN code through the ATM, which requires some pretty significant electronic equipment and collaboration by many parties, they are still faced with the limits of what is in my account because under no circumstances will anyone be allowed to remove more than what is in there or $300 in one day, whichever is greater.  Three failed attempts at the PIN shuts down the account.

There is only one scenario where someone could take out more than is in the account.  If at any time one of the three connections for transactions is down (very rarely and usually a period of less than 5 minutes) they cannot verify the amount in the account.  During this time they automatically set the withdrawal limit to $100 and the purchase limit to $500 so it is possible that if they were to catch it at just the right time, they could get $500 even when nothing is in the account.  I solved this rare possibility by having these limits set to $0, so if it cannot be verified, they get nothing.  The worst case for us would be that my daughter has to wait 5 minutes and try again, and then the limit verification is back in place.

Based on what they have told me, in the worst case scenario, which would be someone somehow getting hold of the PIN and the card, I would be out about $300, assuming that I had placed that much on the account and my daughter hadn't withdrawn it yet.

When asked about some of your specific concerns, they said that your information was wrong.  I feel perfectly comfortable with what they have told me.  Maybe you need to get a different bank?

[msmoby_ru]

I have no doubt this is possible for American banks. To reiterate in turn, in my experience CANADIAN banks will NEVER let you take out more money than you have in your account from a debit card (our system is different from yours). I have been using debit cards in Canada now for 20 years and I have NEVER been able to take out more money than was there.

Hi Misha

I believe you'll find the M/c / Visa systems throughout the world work in the same way.

[Pike]

Sorry Pike, but I just don't agree with you.  Just to check, I called my bank and asked about the specific scenarios you mentioned.  They said that they would never take funds from another account to cover an overdraft on the ATM account and that they cannot do that without my express permission.

. . . . . .

OK, well I will beat the dead horse one more  time; but only  one time.

Everyone  here should know that what local branch managers tell them means nothing really compared to what decisions will come down from corporate headquarters when some of these events come up.

Finally Scott, your  last comments reveal you still don't really understand how the cloned cards work and that all of this is done within the banking system.  No sophisticated techniques are needed at all.  The account numbers and pin numbers show up on the banking computers for every transaction.  The blank magnetic cards are easily purchased on the internet.

And,  you and what the bankers told you about delays is just plain wrong.

To summarize, I am still looking for a solution to the problem that we all have in obtaining money for use for ourselves and our friends/relatives in FSU.

1. Carrying cash is one way to go for ourselves but not to get money to relatives.  Yes, you can get mugged if you carry cash, but you can also get mugged if you carry no cash.

2. Using an ATM card card related to our primary bank account is very risky and I will never do that again.

3. Using an ATM card related to a bank account that is tied to the primary bank account is just as risky as number two.  The bank will offset accounts regardless of what people at branches have told you.  You only have to use common sense and read about some of these situations on the internet or hear about them on the news, etc.

4. Using an ATM card related to a bank account that is not with your  primary bank is a better way to go to minimize risk.  Here the money must be transferred from one bank to another.  There are delays and costs to be considered.  It is not totally risk free either, as the bank can come after you for overages.  But in this case, they cannot first get your money and then you try to get it back later as occurs in 2 and 3.

5. Using an ATM card that is a prepaid Debit card (you put money on the card) is similar in risk and cost to number four.  But there is the problem of getting additional money put on the card when you are outside USA, so it may be just as much a hassle as Western Union.

I personally feel that number 5 is the best way to go if it is possible to put additional money onto the card via the Internet.  Moby told us of a card of this type, but only available for those who can get it in Cyprus.

So I am very interested if someone can give us all  info about method number 5.

I will  not respond further to arguments about what banks may or may not do in situations 2 and 3 or how cloned cards work.

I would very much like to see more discussion of methods 4 and 5.