Do what I mean, not what I say.

[PeeWee]

Has any one run in to this and if so how did you handle it?

My lady says to me, "visit me in Moscow and I will pay for everything, your hotel...you will save a lot of money." Take the offer at face value and it sounds like a free trip. I am not so simple to think that this offer is exactly true but here is what happens. Mixed signals and missunderstood meaning.

Up until the third day she did pay for everything. Parking, tour admissions, gas for her car. I offered but my money was refused. On the third day we are shopping for food in the market. It comes time to pay and since everything has been paid to that point I sept aside and let her have at it. I was going to meet her mom that night so I asked what I should by for a gift. "It's not necessary. Forget about it."

Nice dinner at her apartment, enjoy mom, son plays with daugther, she pays cab driver and son and I go to hotel. Next morning, the bitch is back. I got the laundry list. "Why did not let me pay for food in store? Why did you not buy flowers for mother?" There were a couple of others that would take some explaination. One of the best was that my son had picked out a lap top for her daughter to have. Her daughter has a nice dest top but the lap to was for an extra. My son had gotten the compter used but since it is his training to both program and repair them he knows what is good and what is not. He got her a very powerful and, new through out inside, Toshiba. The case was not new  but the carrying case was new and selected by both he and his mother with great care. Well because the compter was used she would not except it. It seems a great insult to offer to someone a used compter even it it cost the giver more than her monthly income. I think this is what set off the triad of other questions.

Once the point by point explaination was completed off we went for our tour of the day. I tried to pay for the tour but she would not have it. I did manage to pay for one of the two tours but that even seems to not solve the coolness of her mood. By the end of the day I can tell that she is clearly miffed about the money and the computer. So what I am wondering is this unique of my mixed single RW? Has anyone run into this and if so what did you do. At the moment I have been relegated to the worst status of all, in my opinion, cheap American. Keep in mind the offer for all expense paid visit was a result of me bailing her out by instantly sending her 1K to cover some unexpected expenses while on a business trip in NY. There seems  to be no connection to that and what is now the situation.

 

PeeWee 

[Bruno]

:D:D PeeWee, it is usual for all woman on these earth... Woman don't know the real signification from "No" or "Yes"... You wish kiss them, they reply "No" but they hope that you will make it... She say now when you wish pay but they think you will insist and open your wallet...

Nothing special here... a lot of woman are like this... and it is why, us the men, have so much problem with woman... what they say is not always what they think... they are more complex that us...

Now, about the computer, it is normal too... don't ask for she understand the technic... i have know the same problem with my ex-wife... since 1995, i use always the same computer box... from time to time, i change Hard disk, mother board, processor, graphics card... so, the system stay update with expense on a long periode of time... she was always asking me when i will change my old computer... she don't care that inside, i have a good processor, a lot of RAM, big and fast Hard Disk, TV card, 7.1 sound card, last generation of Nvidia,... she see only the box... next time, give her a new cheap box ( 30 euro ) with old compoment and she will be happy...

They make the same with auto... they don't see the quality of the auto like a good motor... they choice a auto in function of the color, one who will be good with her city dress...

Really, woman can be strange... no one man is able to fully understand woman... so, don't try...

[PeeWee]

With that said I now must plan my reslove.

It would be easy to drop the estimated amount of every thing she spent into an envelop and hand it to her. This one has a 50/50 chance of either making her happy or it will make her more angry.

I may be meeting with mom again come tomorrow night. I will be sure to have an arm load of flowers.

In retrospect I should have arrived with a nice gift, such as jewelry. But I did not. I still would like to give her a nice gift to show my appreciation for her week long companionship but I fear if I give it now the gesture will come off as either a make up of some sort, and this is not a good habit to start, or worst, an attempt to buy her. Sometime she is quite sensative to. So I am between a rock and a hard place on this one. My son, in all of his 22 years wisdome, seems to think that I should just send flowers to her with an appology. I hate to begin the learning that rewards something nice as a result of bad behavior. I am of the opinion that she needs to figure it out on her own while I go one doing what I am doing.

What I may do is this. She has a tennis braclet that has lost one of its 25 or so diamonds. I have no clue what she paid for it but she loves jewelry. I my just buy her a new bracelet. It would of course be eaiser to have the diamond replaced but at this point I am in a point building mode. The downside to this is that if I pay too little for the bracelet then I've just relegated myself to a location deeper into the cheap seats, and she does asking me what I have paid for things, or I get moved back to the box seats. And do I want to get moved back to the box seats. At least my cheap seat status is more to my budget ideas.

New guys...see how much fun this can be?

 

PeeWee

[PeeWee]

:D:D PeeWee, it is usual for all woman on these earth... Woman don't know the real signification from "No" or "Yes"... You wish kiss them, they reply "No" but they hope that you will make it... She say now when you wish pay but they think you will insist and open your wallet...

Nothing special here... a lot of woman are like this... and it is why, us the men, have so much problem with woman... what they say is not always what they think... they are more complex that us...

Now, about the computer, it is normal too... don't ask for she understand the technic... i have know the same problem with my ex-wife... since 1995, i use always the same computer box... from time to time, i change Hard disk, mother board, processor, graphics card... so, the system stay update with expense on a long periode of time... she was always asking me when i will change my old computer... she don't care that inside, i have a good processor, a lot of RAM, big and fast Hard Disk, TV card, 7.1 sound card, last generation of Nvidia,... she see only the box... next time, give her a new cheap box ( 30 euro ) with old compoment and she will be happy...

They make the same with auto... they don't see the quality of the auto like a good motor... they choice a auto in function of the color, one who will be good with her city dress...

Really, woman can be strange... no one man is able to fully understand woman... so, don't try...

You are a wise man, Bruno. I think the envelop with cash equivalant to what I think she has spent is the way to go and then hope that I did not either underestimate the amount or that I did not invoke yet another insult of some sort by infering that I think that she is poor and can't afford to enterain me with her own money. Or the bracelet solves the gift problem.

PeeWee

[Bruno]

Woman like surprise... give money is a little strange... bracelet, not original... find something she will like very much and she have never receive... by example, i have give to one lady a oester with a little necklace... she was very surprised and have find this very strange... i have explain that she need open the oester... and you cannot imagine her smile when she have find the pearl inside... Really, use your imagination, make something other have never make, become the special man....

[Photo Guy]

I have NO advice. I find the entire gift-giving thing, a mystery. I trusted my instincts when I met her in Kyiv.  That first day, I did not give her any of the gifts I had brought. The second day, I gave her a necklace from home and she gave me a ceramic incense burner. The third, I gave her a glass dog, she had noticed on the sidewalk the day before, and another necklace from Phoenix. But, I worried if I should have brought gifts for her to take home to her parents, or if I had followed the wrong protocol. It's tricky. There should be a book of etiquette for the FSU. I gave our interpreter a gratuity. Should I have given her a gift too?  ...I can be clueless at times.   Oh yeah, -I also gave our interpreter some chocolate from home. And at the end of the week, I gave 'L' some chocolate and some cash.  And I had prints made of many photos that I had just taken, for her to take home with her. I was trying to be generous, without giving her the impression that money grows on trees.

[Bruce]

Since you were on a WOVO I think you did fine.  You gave nothing extravagant providing the "necklace" was for the most part inexpensive.  I may have forgot some of your trip report details, and forgive me if this point has been hashed to death previously, but  why did you give L cash at the end?  Unless you thought things were really progressing well and you were giving her some dollars for English lessons I believe it was a mistake.  

I do not know why so many guys put on a totally different persona in the FSU than they are here.  The more you relax and act like the real you the better off you are.  All lies will come out in the end.  Honesty really is the best policy.

[ConnerVT]

I do not know why so many guys put on a totally different persona in the FSU than they are here.  The more you relax and act like the real you the better off you are.  All lies will come out in the end.  Honesty really is the best policy.

Isn't it funny how people will act very differently, in hope that someone will fall in love with them...

[Photo Guy]

I gave her like $80. I saw the hrivnas in my wallet and thought, 'Hmmm. I can't spend this in Phoenix.'  So I gave it to her and she had a priceless look on her face.

In recent months, I have given her some money for a cell phone (birthday), delivered flowers, and English lessons. All in all, since last December I have spent much less money than many of these rich guys here at RWD. :D

[Elen]

PSSS Cheap American!! Indeed:?

Keep in your minds one national "twist"

 Never mind what your girl says and offers to you take money from woman and allow her to pay for you is a SHAME here:X

[Elen]

Bruno!!! I do understand in hardware of comps not less ( or may be more) than you. But I would have "unpleasant" feeling about second hand gift to my child too. No "resonable" explanation , just female's feeling Deal with that or you would have "hard" times

PS if I buy a comp for myself  I 'd chose one second hand as well but gifts are another case.

Just my opinion


 

PS Only jewelry, braslet, new comp, money enough to pay for ALL you got "for-free" , flowers and begging for forgiveness will help you now 

[Photo Guy]

Yes, start with flowers. And then apologize, saying how things are so different in the FSU!  ...and she must help you to learn Russian customs.

[Bruno]

Bruno!!! I do understand in hardware of comps not less ( or may be more) than you. But I would have "unpleasant" feeling about second hand gift to my child too. No "resonable" explanation , just female's feeling Deal with that or you would have "hard" times

Elen, it was gift from one child to a other !!! Someone who have work to assemble a good computer in a old box ... it is not the gift who is important but the fact to make a gift... and it is better so "second" hand gift that nothing, the boy was in no way obligate to give a gift to the young girl, it is not him who date a russian woman... i find that what have make the boy is a great thing...

Now, about hardware of computer, i don't know if you know more or less... but for information, my university study was informatic... i was in army weapon technicus... but not little weapon... radar system, rocket, torpedo, ... all these system have own computer who are very special... and since my divorce, i have enough money for upgrade my own material... so, i can say that i have a basic knowledge

About pay, i agree that in the life of each day, if she can, woman need to participate in the household budget... but in no case, i go allow a woman pay for me hotel, restaurant, food... i am from the old school and it will be a insult for me, i go feel myself like a gigolo...

PeeWee, it can seem ridiculous but when i have visit family from my ex-wife or Galina, i have always a gift like some flower... but i bring too some food or fruit or drink... in FSU, when you visit someone, they always insist for you eat and drink a little... and it is always welcome when you bring some delicate food... the best was when i have bring a bag with fruit : banana, kiwi, galia melon, strawberry... product difficult to find in little city...

Of course, you case is very different, you are in Moscow, a city who is "modern" like all western capital... nothing is simple in so big city :?

 

[wxman]

I would be insulted about the computer. First, because your son was considerate and helped to pick out, and also upgraded it to current standards. He did it a a jesture of good will, and a gift of his time, and she rejected it. That would be an insult to me and my family. A person should accept a gift graciously and with respect. She sounds like she will only get worse. What about the next time you get her a gift, and it does not live up to her expectations, and she refuses to accept? I think after rejecting the computer, it would be the last gift I would give her. I would definately let her know it was an insult to you and your son to be so callous.

 

[wxman]

What I may do is this. She has a tennis braclet that has lost one of its 25 or so diamonds. I have no clue what she paid for it but she loves jewelry. I my just buy her a new bracelet. It would of course be eaiser to have the diamond replaced but at this point I am in a point building mode. The downside to this is that if I pay too little for the bracelet then I've just relegated myself to a location deeper into the cheap seats, and she does asking me what I have paid for things, or I get moved back to the box seats. And do I want to get moved back to the box seats. At least my cheap seat status is more to my budget ideas.

 

I would be very careful about having any relationship based on whether or not a gift must meet a certain standard before she will appreciate it. Last time I checked, that was a definition of a gold digger.

[wxman]

She did a very nice thing by paying for hotel, food ,etc, which I would consider a wonderful gift and would appreciate very much. But what if Pee Wee would have said "Sorry, the hotel is not up to my standard, I will not stay here." I think she would have been insulted very much because she spent much time planning this. This is exactly what she did to Pee Wee by rejecting computer.   

[PeeWee]

She did a very nice thing by paying for hotel, food ,etc, which I would consider a wonderful gift and would appreciate very much. But what if Pee Wee would have said "Sorry, the hotel is not up to my standard, I will not stay here." I think she would have been insulted very much because she spent much time planning this. This is exactly what she did to Pee Wee by rejecting computer.   

Most of you fellows are thinking the same, the exception being Elan, a Russian. I spoke to my son's mother about it, she tried to be objective. Her opinion was to give the flowers but no more. Her attitude was more of a take it or leave it one. Appologize with the flowers but tell her that I would return home think about other things (relationships). She told me something that I know about women anyway. They will want that they think they cannot have. If she has true feelings she will realize what it is that she is loosing and will try to keep it.

It is also interesting the view point of another RW who said, "All Russian woman are different." Another, a friend of mine now living in Vladivostok, said, "You remember that you gave me used computer?" I did. "I was very happy to recieve it and I use it all of the time. This woman is pragmatic and not for you." It is a very blunt response from a Russian friend.

It is interesting to learn of so many variable opinions. I knew it would be that way and it is whyI asked. I have no idea what our next meeting will bring or what road I will choose to take. My tendency, because it it my nature, is to listen to peewee junior's mother. Roll the dice on the simple apology and walk away. In the end one of two things will happen. Either she chases or she looses. For some reason my mind is telling me to add the money with the flowers. I think it is one thing to offer to treat but I think too the expectation and the hope was that the offer would be declined and the instance would be allow me to pay for the expenses. She has still give her time and heart and shown her hospitality, rejection of gift aside, as I do her when she travels to my city.

I hope many of us can learn something from this interesting turn of events. Because the true value of a forum is to share events and learn from them.

 

Peewee

[ConnerVT]

Why do people think there is a right or wrong way in all of this?  We are talking about women, and relationships.  You can not use logic.  You can not make reasonable assumptions.  It just does not work that way.

Be an honest person.  Make genuine offers of assistance and gifts.  If it is accepted in the manner you like, then a person is compatible with you in this.  If it becomes an issue filled with strife, move on.  It's not going to get any better.

You can not 'make' a person love you.  And you should not waste your time trying to change someone to accept you as you are.  It's a waste of time with a woman who lives in the same town as you.  No need to travel 4000+ miles to find a wall to bang your head against...

[PeeWee]

Why do people think there is a right or wrong way in all of this?  We are talking about women, and relationships.  You can not use logic.  You can not make reasonable assumptions.  It just does not work that way.

Be an honest person.  Make genuine offers of assistance and gifts.  If it is accepted in the manner you like, then a person is compatible with you in this.  If it becomes an issue filled with strife, move on.  It's not going to get any better.

You can not 'make' a person love you.  And you should not waste your time trying to change someone to accept you as you are.  It's a waste of time with a woman who lives in the same town as you.  No need to travel 4000+ miles to find a wall to bang your head against...

Amen, that is what I think. Yet I have read the stories of the RW who arrive on the K1, become dissatisfied and threaten to return home. It is a part of a game with them, or a testing. If the man begs for her to stay she may but it may not be good for him in the long run. If he offers to help her pack she may and leave but more likely will not. For him it is the best thing that will happen.

This seemed somewhat the same for me. Is it a test? The outcome depends on how one responds, that is for certain. My friend in Vladivostok told me this, "It is not so much that she is angry about you not giving the flowers to the mother or paying for the dinner. She is trying to tell you something else that she does not like about you. It may be so many things that it is enough for her to find these reasons to be angry with you. But they are not the real reasons." Womenese for sure. Most of us poor schmoes cannot understand it. I don't anyway.

It seems in this situation I would do the "let me help you pack" and leave it at that approach. Offer the lowers, insist on the acceptance of the expense reimbursement, offer the appology but don't beg, and then move on. If she comes along, all the better, if she does not then you have just ended one relationship and begun your search for the next. It's very hard to do but for the long haul one that is going to cause less problems.

Peewee

[Photo Guy]

If you or she thinks the gift 'mistakes' are important, then you should deal with it and get it resolved. Otherwise, I would divert her attention to something else, something positive. I'd choose the latter.

[wxman]

We all have received gifts in the past (who can't forget those strange Christmas gifts from relatives) that we really didn't like or could use. But at least we had to courtesy to thank the people for the gifts. We may not have liked the gift, but we appreciated the fact that the person cared enough to give us a gift.

Any relationship built firstly on material gifts is not a good relationship. A person who rejects a gift, because it does not meet their standard, is an empty person who only looks for what they can get out of a relationship, not what they can offer.

The fact that she did not like the gift does not matter. No person who seriously cares about the other person should expect gifts from the other, but instead should be happy when they receive a gift, because the person giving is doing so because they care about the other person and want to make that person happy.

My fiance has done many wonderful things for me, all from the heart. Her daughter who is 9 years old sent me a hand made birthday card, letters spelled the wrong way, but to me it is the most wonderful card I have ever received, because this little girl took the time to want to put a smile on my face.  

 

 

 

 

[KenC]

PeeWee,

I think you have done a number of things wrong.  I would never accept a trip under the conditions you posted.  Call it male ego or whatever, but I would never be comfortable having a woman pay my way.  I would also never go to meet my girlfriend's Mother empty handed.  What I think you have on your hands is a woman that is telling you "no, you don't have to do that" and is hoping that you are man enough not to listen to her.  Re-read what Elen wrote: "Never mind what your girl says and offers to you take money from woman and allow her to pay for you is a SHAME here:X"  Strangely enough, I even understand the "used" gift concept.  But maybe 6 years married to a Ruskie has warped me too. 

As for how to save it from here out, my advice is not to try and un-do what has already happened, but change your play going forward.  Buy her some flowers and tell her you were never comfortable with the arraingments any way.  Going forward, be a man, pay your way and hers too.  The next time you see her Momma, go with an appropriate gift.  Nothing expensive, just  some flowers and maybe a bottle of wine.  Do not offer an envelope of money.  Do not buy your gal a diamond bracelett.  Take charge and quit following her lead.

KenC

[KenC]

Wxman,

First of all, PeeWee's boy is 22 and hardly a child.  (Unless I misunderstood something)  Secondly, Russians are notoriously honest with their feeling and this is often perceived as rude.  They do not have the ability to "sugar coat" things in order to save someone's feelings.  They just say whatever they feel straight out.  My wife still has an abrupt demeanor with waitresses after almost 7 years in this country.  She is not rude so much as she is direct and lacks the all smiley please and thank you's.  As a matter of fact, one of her first impressions of America was that we were all phoney with the "have a nice day" and other phoney pleasantries that we commonly use.

KenC

[PeeWee]

Regarding what Ken has said and to show how accurate this information can sometimes be. I spoke to the concierge (sp) to find out where a florist was. She was not busy to told her about my situation. She told me to do the flowers with an appolgy and beg for the forgiveness (agree with Ken).   Spend about 600r.

Regarding the money. She was of the opinion that I should give the money and insist on it (this varies from Ken). Buy the flowers and the wine for the mother (agress with ken). She was not sure about the gift but I look at that as something totaly seperate in that I would have bought her some gift anyway for her being her and in appreciation for her hospitality.

I asked the concierge what she thought my chances were of pulling this out. She smiled, "I think good."

Off to the florist

 

[Bruno]

My friend in Vladivostok told me this, "It is not so much that she is angry about you not giving the flowers to the mother or paying for the dinner. She is trying to tell you something else that she does not like about you. It may be so many things that it is enough for her to find these reasons to be angry with you. But they are not the real reasons."

What can be the real reasons !!!

I have some little question for you PeeWee...

First question : How are your relation with your ex-wife, the mother from your son...  you ask her advice over dating a other woman... and his your Moscow woming knowing that some part of the computer was choice by both your son and her mother :

My tendency, because it it my nature, is to listen to peewee junior's mother.

The case was not new  but the carrying case was new and selected by both he and his mother with great care.

If she have know that your ex-wife have help in the choice for computer, i understand the reaction of your russian lady... usualy, Russian woman ( and several other ) don't like ghost from the past... they will you only for her and not share you with other, specialy ex-wife...

Second question : What about your relation with your RW... are you at the friend stage, of the flirting stage or already at the intimate stage... your post are like these from someone who meet the first time his lady but ...

I have known Lara for 3 years.

It is possible that she is a very honest person and that she is not in love and because of that she does not say it. I'm not worried about it. We have a good time when we are together and she does do many things for me that she does not do for anyone else. At the least we are really, really, really, good friends.

As it turned out the second one that I met three years ago I am still with. As you may recall me telling that we have met 4 times, all meeting were in the US. I will spend some time with her on this up coming trip to Russia. I leave in 2 days.

So, it is three year that you know her, 5 meeting ( 4 in USA and 1 now in Moscow )... and your are good friend... But when i read your moscow report, it is like you discover her only now... Don't you think that 3 year is a enough long periode for know somebody... if i good remember, you have already say to her that you love her... don't you think that she is waiting more now, by example, some proposal...

Your ex-wife always in your present life and the very slow speed you use for build your relation can be the main reason of her actual relation little problem... patience is not really a quality from woman... and again, they don't like share a man...

Yek, almost 2 hours for make these post... read again the 167 post from PeeWee for try undunstand why he can have little problem now... maybe now, we have find the "real reason" or "something else that she does not like about you"... ex-wife and long courting periode !!!!!!!