K-1 vs. CR-1/K-3 - US/Ukraine

[epdx]

Hello Ladies & Gents:

Thanks in advance to anyone that takes the time to lend their insight.

Been lurking for a while but this is my first actual post. Just returned from my first trip to the Ukraine this past Tuesday and am determining the best way to proceed from here. Jet-visa has been answering a number of my questions and been very helpful but I thought I would post a question here too after he suggested reading some of the Ukraine marriage threads.

Prior to my trip I had planned on going the K-1 route if everything went well and we got engaged. The trip went better than I could have ever imagined. However, it turned out that we were not able to complete all of her paperwork for the K-1 while there so I have decided to consider all visa options. Part of the problem was we ran out of time to get the paperwork done once we were engaged. The other part of the problem was that while I was there she realized she still had her Soviet birth certificate and needed to go get a Ukrainian one, in addition to simply getting it translated and the apostille. It was easy to get the new birth certificate and she already has it. Getting the apostille is underway but she is in Zaporozhye which is a long ways from Kiev. She found a translator that sends the docs there by courier to complete the process and that is underway.

In the meantime, I have been looking into the best route to get her here. According to some posts here and some very helpful email exchanges with Jim at Jet-Visa it seems many of you feel the best route is to do a CR-1/K-3 at this point. I live in Oregon so a K-1 would go to the California black hole...

I have read through some of the recent posts on the marriage process in the Ukraine and doing a CR-1. I am a little hung up on the processing times as I hate the fact that I have to spend this much time apart form someone that I love and want to spend my life with, however the situation is what it is. This is a bit of a guess but I think I should be able to file a K-1 within 2-4 weeks from now. So from what I understand to be on a rough time equivalent I would probably need to file a CR-1 by the end of July to have a roughly equivalent processing time, as much as we can guess about that.

Due to vacation time restraints I would probably need to tie my visit to get married around the July 4th holiday to squeeze in an extra free vacation day. I should have no problem getting any paperwork I need here completed. The trick would be to get everything done in the Ukraine in Kiev, then to RAGS in Zaporozhye, getting the marriage in on that trip and then ultimately getting those documents translated and with an Apostille. I would have to find a way around the 30 day issue at RAGS. Assuming, my lady has no contacts that can help with this, how likely is that? Can you just outright offer a cash/gift to get past the 30 day issue? Due to vacation constraints my entire trip would probably be about 10 days and the first 2 days or so would need to be Kiev to complete that step of the process.

Thoughts, comments on K-1 vs. CR-1/K-3 in this situation? What process is the best when all factors are considered, meaning all the way to green card? Assuming I could submit a petition in a timely fashion for either the K-1 or CR-1/K-3 is the processing time really pretty similar?

If I have missed relevant information that would be helpful please let me know.

Thanks again,

Ethan

[Ravens9273]

I dealt with RAGS in Odessa and the 30 day wait period did not exist. Once they received paperwork they told us to pick a date and if I had to leave early they would fit us in. They did not ask for cash or anything. But this was Odessa. Others here I have read have also gotten around the 30 day ordeal as well. Just remember though that the US Embassy will only do paperwork on Friday mornings between 9 and 12 so keep this in mind with planning your trip.

As far as K-1 to K-3/CR-1 is up to the person.

K-1 right now is going faster then K-3/CR-1.

I am personally going for a CR-1 because she will have green card almost as soon as she comes to US and from what I am seeing the K-3 and CR-1 are taking the same amount of time but the CR-1 is skipping alot of hassles I feel.
With the CR-1 she can work and drive etc... pretty much right away and reason I am choosing this route.

Best of luck to you in what ever you choose.

[epdx]

Thanks. I may wind up just going the K-1 route after all as this seems to be causing some unnecessary friction with the lady. We will see after I discuss it with her further. She dislikes the idea of having to pay to eliminate a 30 day wait, if there is in fact a 30 day wait.

[Ronnie]

What friction?  What is causing it?  Take you're time.  You've only met her the one time as I understand it.  Many men, including myself, pulled the plug on the K1 before the interview even.  Let the processing time work for you.  Getting married in Ukraine is inadvisable, more burdensome in terms of paperwork and fees.  But most of all it's just plain unwise.

As to Raven's comment about her getting a drivers license and able to work immediately upon arrival - A K-1 can get her SS card and work authorization immediately...even before you get married.  She can also get the DL with the work authorization or the admission card in her passport.

I also have no idea what you mean when you talk about apostilling her birth certificate.  Who needs that?  Not the US government..just photocopy of the original and a translation.

This is not even a close call IMHO.  Go the K1 route but take your time.  There could be some more "friction" on the horizon that could give you pause.

[Ooooops]

K1 visa will give you more control over your wife-to-be.   With CR1 visa you can't just pack her up and send home because you've changed your mind. 

[ScottinCrimea]

I don't have time to post a lot right now, but it seems that you have a lot of friction and concerns based on some misinformation.  I'm sure others will have some things to say so when I check back I will add my 2 cents worth.  For the record, I did the CR-1 and it worked wonderfully for us.

Don't let anyone tell you that you need an apostille on any documents from Ukraine because it isn't true and just costs time and money to do it. All you need is a copy with a certified transation.  It doesn't even need to be notarized.

More later.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I was married in Odessa as well and I can tell you that there is a 30 day wait.  The great thing is they normally will waive it being that you have limited time compared to the locals.  Be prepared to show them plane tickets or something that shows your limited time in Ukraine.

I can't tell you what Ukraine required if you are bringing the documentation from the states since I got them in Kiev.  I haven't been married before so it was quite easy.  If you only have a week then I think it will be incredibly difficult to get this done.  It took us awhile just waiting in lines to get a frikken wedding date.  We didn't bribe anyone.  If you can find the right person, I would bribe them to speed it up.

We did the cr-1 and are now waiting for her visa and passport to be mailed.  Two weeks and we are off to the states.



Thomas

[epdx]

Thanks for the responses. Let me clarify something as best as I can. I do not doubt what any of you are saying about an Apostille stamp but let me explain what happened.

Before I went I was planning on doing a K-1 if things went well. When we looked over the G325A she wanted to have someone help her with the translation from Russian to English so the information was accurate, which seemed reasonable enough. We attempted to do this but ran into some strange holiday the Monday we went to do this and it was the last chance we had so it did not get done while I was there. She then realized she still had her Soviet birth certificate and needed to change it to a Ukrainian one.  I was under the impression that if any of her documents were in Ukrainian they needed to have a certified English translation attached to them. I believe I read somewhere that meant it needed to be stamped (according to a phone call to the embassy) by the person translating it, they had to attach a letter stating they understand both languages and that would satisfy the requirement.

My lady then called around to various translation agencies after I left. They all told her that she had to legalize her papers. They told her the process of legalizing her papers included going to Kiev. Since she is a long ways from Kiev she did not want to do this. She found an agency that would help her and go to Kiev. According to her this is what they do, "Preparation complete package of documents for marriage with foreign nationals."

[groovlstk]

She then realized she still had her Soviet birth certificate and needed to change it to a Ukrainian one. 

Do you know why she needs to change or update her birth certificate? I could be wrong, but in the eyes of the USCIS and US embassy, why would they care?

I was under the impression that if any of her documents were in Ukrainian they needed to have a certified English translation attached to them. I believe I read somewhere that meant it needed to be stamped (according to a phone call to the embassy) by the person translating it, they had to attach a letter stating they understand both languages and that would satisfy the requirement.

Not true, and don't let a third party try to extract extra fees from you by exaggerating the complexity.

When I did my K1, all documents we had to translate (birth certificate, divorce decree) were translated by a friend of ours, a female member of RWD, in accordance w/this page from visajourney (these specific instructions are included as boilerplate language on many USCIS forms):

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?autocom=custom&page=translations

[epdx]

Do you know why she needs to change or update her birth certificate? I could be wrong, but in the eyes of the USCIS and US embassy, why would they care?

Not true, and don't let a third party try to extract extra fees from you by exaggerating the complexity.

She said her friends ran into a problem and had to update their birth certificates to a Ukrainian one. That was not a problem and was completed with one visit to a government office and presumably cost next to nothing.

Thanks for the link to the translation requirements, I must have missed that before.

[epdx]

Getting back to my original question about a K-1 vs. the CR-1/K-3 what does everyone think. Pros and cons of either? You can disregard my comment about any friction. That has been resolved and we are going to discuss both options later today to see what one will work the best under the circumstances.

[philb]

How much time have you actually spent together?

[Jet]

Getting married in Ukraine is inadvisable, more burdensome in terms of paperwork and fees. 

Ronnie,
The K-3/CR-1 requires one extra stamp on one official document, that is a stretch to call it burdensome considering all the additional documentation required to substantiate an ongoing relationship for a K-1.
 
Now, using the table below, please show us how it is more burdensome in terms of fees

	K-1	K-3	CR-1
Filing Fee	$455	-0-	$355
Medical	$100	$100	$100
Visa fee	$131	–0-	$400
Adjust status	$1,010	$1,010	–0-
Remove Conditions	$545	$545	545
Work Auth	$340/yr	$340/yr	–0-
Travel Auth	$305/yr	$305/yr	–0-
Total:	$2,886+/- .	$2,300+/- .	$1,400

As to Raven's comment about her getting a drivers license and able to work immediately upon arrival - A K-1 can get her SS card and work authorization immediately...even before you get married.  She can also get the DL with the work authorization or the admission card in her passport.
 

You need to tell the whole story of you want to paint a clear picture. The K-1 can get her work authorization immediately BUT it is only good for 90 days or until she files AoS whichever comes first. At that point she must by law quit the job until an I-765 work authization is approved, which can’t happen until the AoS is receipted, and they pay the fee associated with the I-765, leaving her unauthorized for 90 to 180 days. She cannot get a D/L in many states until she is work authorized, and the license will only be valid for the period the EAD or I-94 is valid, meaning she must renew yearly. She also can’t return home in the case of a family emergency until filing for an I-131 Advance Parole travel document, and waiting on a decision. The CR-1 bypasses ALL of that crap.

[ScottinCrimea]

You have to remember that this is the US who decides what they will accept as far as documents for the visa, not the Ukrainian government.  If you need US documents accepted by Ukraine for things such as marriage there, you need the apostille.  If you need Ukrainian documents accepted by the US, you do not.  They accept a copy with a certified translation, which means that statement given you by groov is at the bottom of the document and you must be prepared to show the originals at some time.  You do NOT need an apostille on any Ukrainian document for anything in the visa process reviewed by the US.

I remember when my wife was getting her police certificate for her visa.  She was told by them that it was only good for one month.  The US, however, accepts them for a term of 6 months.  I had to convince her that in this case it was the US that made the rules regarding what they would accept, not the Ukrainian police.

As far as filling out the biographical forms, I got the information from my wife, filled it out myself, e-mailed it to her and had her sign and return them to me.  Much easier than having her try to do it herself, even with her excellent English.

I agree with Ronnie that the CR-1 is not more burdensome at all and, in the total picture, actually requires less money and paperwork.

epdx, I'm a bit concerned here with your rush to get everything done.  An engagement in one visit and now trying to find the absolute quickest way to get her here.  This is a lifetime decision with many potential consequences for both of you should things go bad.  My advice would be to slow down a bit, actually get to know this person you want to marry, and take the time to do everything right.  By rushing so quickly, there is a greater chance that there will be problems.  You wouldn't rush into a business partnership in such a short time and with such little information, so why do it with a marriage?

I'm curious about your ages, prior marriages, her level of English, etc. which are big factors in how things work as well.

[epdx]

Thank you to everyone that has posted comments, suggestions or concerns. I regret including any personal details about my relationship with her when I made this post as that is not something I really wish to discuss in great detail on a public forum. When I made the post I knew that the logistics of doing a CR-1/K-3 were probably not a good idea for my situation and should not have asked about that aspect of it. In addition when I originally looked over the different visa options there were some of aspects of that process compared to the K-1 process that led me to believe it was not for me. Upon further review I was incorrect about that however, I believe the K-1 is the best for my situation. When I made the post I was more curious about how people felt about the two processes.

Some of you want to get into details about if I should be marrying her. That is not something I want to discuss on a public forum and is an entirely different debate in itself. I have not provided enough information for any of you to make a judgment about if we know each other enough to marry. In everything in life I believe you should never say never. So I will say I am 99.99% certain about this decision, am prepared to suffer the consequences if my judgment is wrong or reverse course and I will post the story here for others to learn form in detail if I am wrong. In any situation in life and particularly in this it is necessary to keep your eyes open. Mine are but I am not going to detail why I feel the way I do on a public forum. It is not my style and posting the limited personal info I did here is not the norm for me either.

As for rushing this, I do not see a way to rush a 6-12 month visa process. I simply would like to get the ball rolling on that clock. If I did not feel strongly about this lady I would not have asked her to marry me and I would not be looking into how to complete the visa process in the best way possible.

For those that have commented about an apostille stamp I appreciate it and should have looked a little more before letting her proceed with what she learned from people in her country. I do not doubt what anyone has said but what is done is done and that is done. Moving on.

-E

[Ronnie]

I will second the fact that the translators and government folks in Ukraine are a wonderful source of wrong information about what is needed by the US government.  Yet that's who she hears from and it's hard for her to disregard it.  My first K-1 was told she needed a document from her local government that certifies her unmarried status in order to get married anywhere, even in the USA.  When I explained repeatedly that's not how it works in the USA, she just say, oh, went ahead and got the darn document anyway.  Oh, well.

As to the K-1 vs CR1/K-3.

Jet has listed a cost table that is very helpful but at the same time in need of further comment.  Yes, one could go strictly down the CR1 route and would be my choice if I was absolutely ready for marriage, i.e. at least 60 days of face time...not letters, not phone calls.  I've got to see how she behaves when she's a little tired and learn; does she drink too much?  Does she smoke? I never had a smoker UW who admitted to it even after I'd smell it on her breath!  That issue broke up two promising relationships.

So back to Jet's table.  If you know her well, have the face time and still want the marriage, then jump through the Ukrainian bureacracy and get married there.  That assumes you can stay with her for the year or so it will take for her CR1 visa to come through or if you can't are willing to live apart for that year (if you can't do that then factor in the cost of extra conjugal trips to Ukraine).

What mostly happens is that the parties immediately file for the K3 visa which specifically designed to get her to the states while waiting for the CR1. Unless I'm mistaken the K1 and K3 visas require the same amount of time to process from the time filed.  If I'm wrong on this I will happily stand corrected.  I heard K1 might be faster but can't understand why that would be.

Of course the I-130 form must be filed before the K3 petition and the I-130 can't be filed until the marriage is performed, so in all, the K3 is giving the K1 a head start of several weeks due to the prerequisites of marriage and I-130 NOA receipt.  Jet points out that the K1 requires proof of meeting and that's true.  Such proof is usually satisfied by a photo of the couple together and/or a photo copy of the entrance stamp in the USC's passport or boarding pass stubs.  None of these requires much effort to provide.

So, I think there is no dispute on the following:

1. The K1 gets her to the US faster, meaning less time apart and/or fewer interim conjugal trips.
2. The CR1 (without K3) costs less in fees and involves much longer separation after marriage.  (Costs may be higher overall due to interim travel). Once she does finally arrive she is already LPR and can work, travel, drive.
3. The CR1 with K3 has a small cost disadvantage due to fact that Adjustment of Status and it's attendant costs re-enter the picture.

 I concede that the K3 which does not have the short duration I-94 (authorized period of stay) the K1 has, would be an advantage in getting a DL or working, though as a practical matter, a K1 who gets hired under her temporary EAD should not going to find herself afoul of the law if she applies for a new EAD with her Adjustment application.  My wife didn't at least.

Here's the biggest point of contrast and the one that controlled my situation: The K1 is the only way a woman can bring her 18-21 year old child with her.
==============
While were talking visas, the 9th Circuit court of appeals heard a case last month, the first in the country on the issue of what happens to a K-1 who marries in good faith within the 90 days but divorces before the government adjudicates the AOS petition.  The government is arguing that no matter now long it takes them to adjudicate, the parties must be still married at the time of adjudication.  The case involves a K1 from Russia (of course) who got divorced after two years of marriage and the USCIS still had not adjudicated her AOS.  When they did get to adjudication and seeing was married but not to the original USC, they denied her application.  Two of the three members of the Court hearing the case, seem to be siding with the petitioner while the other is leaning with the government.  There are two other cases pending before this same court on the same issue but this is the earliest to be ready for an opinion.  While this case is a K-1, it might be said to affect also the CR1/K3 who divorces after arriving in the US but before receiving LPR status.

Go to www.ca9.uscourts.gov and enter case number 06-75823 to listen to the oral arguments.

[Ooooops]

My first K-1 was told she needed a document from her local government that certifies her unmarried status in order to get married anywhere, even in the USA.  When I explained repeatedly that's not how it works in the USA, she just say, oh, went ahead and got the darn document anyway.  Oh, well.

She will need divorce papers if she's been married before.   If not, then nothing is necessary. 

[Ronnie]

In most if not all states of the USA, no divorce documents need be shown.  A sworn statement by the party is sufficient.  It's silly to trust someone to say whether this is their first marriage of not but not trust then to say that the marriage is ended.

[Ooooops]

In most if not all states of the USA, no divorce documents need be shown. 

You mean INS won't ask for that for the immigrant visa process?   That's new to me...

[ScottinCrimea]

In most if not all states of the USA, no divorce documents need be shown.  A sworn statement by the party is sufficient.  It's silly to trust someone to say whether this is their first marriage of not but not trust then to say that the marriage is ended.

This one is news to me as I was required to show a divorce certificate before they would issue the marriage license.

Also Ronnie, please provide your sources for your statement that the K-1 gets her to the US much faster.  Looking at the California Service Center processing dates, for example, they show that they are EXACTLY the same for the K-1 and the K-3.  Can you give some specific examples that show, barring any complications, a K-3 took MUCH longer than a K-1?

[Jet]

This one is news to me as I was required to show a divorce certificate before they would issue the marriage license.

If you were never married previously, what would you have done? 
Honestly, when it comes to the law, being able to definitively prove you are single is about as hard a task as there is.

Also Ronnie, please provide your sources for your statement that the K-1 gets her to the US much faster.  Looking at the California Service Center processing dates, for example, they show that they are EXACTLY the same for the K-1 and the K-3.  Can you give some specific examples that show, barring any complications, a K-3 took MUCH longer than a K-1?

USCIS stats are notoriously faulty. I prefer to use a different method, by going to the Embassy appointment list and working backward, but in this case my method supports your findings that K-1s & K-3s through WAC (where Ethan would apply) are virtually identical with nearly all the anomalies being attributed to RFE's.

[Ronnie]

This one is news to me as I was required to show a divorce certificate before they would issue the marriage license.

Also Ronnie, please provide your sources for your statement that the K-1 gets her to the US much faster.  Looking at the California Service Center processing dates, for example, they show that they are EXACTLY the same for the K-1 and the K-3.  Can you give some specific examples that show, barring any complications, a K-3 took MUCH longer than a K-1?

Hi Scott,
You had to show divorce certificate before WHO would issue the marriage license?  I thought you got married in Ukraine.

As to the K1/K3 relative speed..what I said was,

Unless I'm mistaken the K1 and K3 visas require the same amount of time to process from the time filed.  If I'm wrong on this I will happily stand corrected.  I heard K1 might be faster but can't understand why that would be

[Ronnie]

You mean INS won't ask for that for the immigrant visa process?   That's new to me...

Of course you have to show your divorce decree for the visa. 

What I'm talking about the process of getting a marriage license in the USA.  That first K1 had provided her divorce records in order to get the k1 visa but she just couldn't accept that the document from the government stating she was free to marry wasn't required by US marriage bureaus.  I've added that to my knowledge nothing is required to married in the US except an oath.  Each state establishes it's own marriage laws so there could be some state requiring documentation somewhere, I just don't know about any.  It would be silly anyway.  No state can verify that a resident is free to marry.  A person could run off to the Bahamas to marry and how would any state know about?

[Ooooops]

Of course you have to show your divorce decree for the visa. 

I guess we had a misunderstanding...   I meant "married" as in legal tender, not just walking into a chapel in Bahamas or Las Vegas with a passerby.   

[ScottinCrimea]

Hi Scott,
You had to show divorce certificate before WHO would issue the marriage license?  I thought you got married in Ukraine.

As to the K1/K3 relative speed..what I said was,

Ronnie,  I was married twice in the US before my current marriage.

As to the K1/K3 relative speed, nice to see that you modified your post to be more accurate but in the future please note whenever you modify a post so these misunderstandings don't happen.