"Trustworthy" Agencies?

[CCowboy]

I have the same thought.  If YOU know a woman's profile and photos are 4-5 years old, why is she still on your site?  If some unsuspecting man decides he wants her contact information, are you going to first tell him that her profile is 5 years old, you have had no contact with her, and turn down his $50?  As I wrote, I didn't check out Kherson Girls because I have never been to kherson and I'm unfamiliar with Kherson women.  But in other cities, I'm very familiar and my knowledge goes back far too many years.  So, what is the bigger scam:  Anastasia or Army of Brides constantly sending me "letters" from women who know nothing about me and often don't even know their profile is on their sites and hoping I'm stupid enough to pay the $8-10 to open up a bogus letter.  Or an agency who still promotes women they haven't had any contact with for 4-5 years and not informing a man before he spends his $50.  It is YOUR agency.  YOU set the policies.  When a woman signs up, what is so difficult in telling her if she does not update her profile with new AND current photos and any other information at least once a year, she will be removed.  At least, you can post that she is inactive.  If you can't keep track of all the women with your agency, then you have too many women.  I know you are big on statistics.  What is the percentage of women with your agency who actually marry?  I bet it is less than 1%.  You've got over 2000 women with your agency.  Are you going to have 20 marriages this year?  Do you tell a woman her chances are very small she will meet a foreign man for marriage?  That she must do everything possible such as providing current information and photos and anything else necessary for a man to want to meet her.  As you can tell, I've become very anti-agency.  I'm very tired of meeting women with old photos, of an agency taking my money for a meeting but failing to tell me a 42 y.o. woman wants a baby ( which I don't and make that very clear up front), or that a woman has been with the agency for many years and is a professional dater hoping to eventually meeting her millionaire prince.  Nearly all agencies operate under the caveat "Let the buyer beware" and feel their only responsibility is to call a woman and set up a meeting.  I've had my share of meetings where I knew in 5 minutes the woman was only meeting with me because of the insistence of the agency.  I could go on and on.  Bottom line: by your own admission, you have profiles on your site that are 4-5 years old, you've had no contact with these women, but you still say they are "available" on your site.  On RWD you promote your "honest agencies" which I can tell you, have the same outdated profiles you've admitted to.  I also checked out Jack Bragg's First Dream.  There are numerous profiles that are 6+ years old that haven't been updated since day one.  But when members give negative feedback about your agencies, you're in complete denial.  I'm not going to take the time to go through your agencies and point out the old profiles.  You know who they are.  But I'll give you one of many examples from First Dream.  There is a woman named Elena who is 41 and from Stavropol and hot looking.  I contacted her when she was 35.  It's the EXACT same photo that was posted on another site 6 years ago.  When I told her I would like to know her better and possibly meet her, I got a very nice response that included the suggestion we meet in Turkey.  When I told her I was only interested in meeting her in her own city, I never heard from her again.  So 6 years later, she is still on First Dream and I'd bet Jack has had no dealings with her since day one, except the money he's made from her being on his site.  She is just one of many examples I can give from First Dream as well as other agencies that are so-called "honest agencies".  To do business with any of these agencies is like tossing your money in the toilet.  Enough said.  Robert       

[Kevin]

If the ladies have not updated their photo or had any activity for 4-5 years, why would you keep them on your site ? Should you not at least once a year (and IMHO more often) check if the ladies are still interested in your service ? It seems like doing both the men and the ladies a disservice.

I don't believe I have any that are more then 2 years old. Every year we invite all ladies to come and update their photo's. We have only 900 ladies in Kherson so it takes some time to update all photo's.  It is our goal to keep all photo's less then 1 year old. IF you find any that are not since we don't have a way of tracking photo dates in our database. Be sure to email the office to update. But I don't think I have any.

[Shadow]

currently even on my site I have a few ladies who photo's are older then 4 years, but have not had any activity in 4-5 years.  As soon as they get a letter or come into the office for any reason I do update them.

I don't believe I have any that are more then 2 years old. Every year we invite all ladies to come and update their photo's. We have only 900 ladies in Kherson so it takes some time to update all photo's.  It is our goal to keep all photo's less then 1 year old. IF you find any that are not since we don't have a way of tracking photo dates in our database. Be sure to email the office to update. But I don't think I have any.

You are contradicting yourself here.
As for updating 900 photo's, I have just completed the entry and upload of about 700 items in one week, not working on it full-time either. Divided over the 12 months it should give you more than enough time to keep all profiles up to date without neclecting other, more profiting, duties.

[Admin]

Dan
I get tired of these Games very quickly. Either support your facts or stop posting about it.  You made the claim. Now support it.
So me the links to where on the web I can verify your claims. Then judge me along with everyone else on How I respond to such claims.  That is the code of Ethics that I folllow. I require the same when men complain about ladies. I want to see the facts first. I don't blacklist without cause.

Kevin

Kevin!

It is NOT my responsibility to insure your sites are as you claim them to be!

You have a site called "Honest Marriage Agencies." You intend to attract people to that site on the basis of the site listings being "honest." That is up to YOU to insure - not me or anyone else.

In this case, I have done you a favor by alerting you to the FACT you have a site there whose owner:

* Encourages western men to lie to RW, and
* Provides instruction to American guys to circumvent US law.

Those are verified and incontrovertible FACTS. You can do with that information whatever you wish - HOWEVER - since you are promoting your "Honest Marriage Agencies" site here at RWD, and since I know these FACTS to be TRUE, I am raising this issue in response to your promotion.

Dan
My site has many links.
Are you referring to a Agency, a blacklist site or a competitor forum?  I treat each group differently.

As far as taking the private conversation public. Backup the thread. You brought it public by posting I had a link on my site to a (unknown) that you do not believe should be linked.  I responded to your posting.

Having a verified secret is great for you. But it does me know good.
I need to know how someone encourage AM to lie. Are we talking about saying your 40 when you are 41?
I need to know the instructions on how to avoid the IMBRA law?
I need to know what copyright items are being sold.

This better not be a conflict between you and another forum owner that I just heard about.  I do not want to be in the middle of another personal conflict again.

>>Are you referring to a Agency, a blacklist site or a competitor forum?  I treat each group differently.<<

BTW - can you explain the specifics of HOW you "treat each group differently?"

Does that mean that one group is allowed, by you, to be LESS honest or LESS ethical than one of the other groups?

- Dan

[Ben Armen]

Yea, same here. I would like to know who this bad agency is?

Hey!  Ben Armen is aware of a lot of bad agencies, maybe he knows.  Nawww, never mind, he's not telling either last I recall.

Good Morning Jack!

Glad I am in your head.  Being in your head it is very dirty, but everyone knows you have a dirty mind anyway.  No I do not know this agency.  The information and experiences I have, I have shared to take the bad experiences I have had and make sure my non-commercial collegues do not make the same mistake I make.  Unlike you, I do not make a profit and am impartial because of that.  You may not agree with me, but that is what a forum is for.  If everyone was like you it would be called Capitalists Forum. 

Have a great trip next week, I will watch the fort for you!

Your best friend,

Ben

[msmoby_ru]

  I also checked out Jack Bragg's First Dream.  There are numerous profiles that are 6+ years old that haven't been updated since day one.    But I'll give you one of many examples from First Dream.  There is a woman named Elena who is 41 and from Stavropol and hot looking.  I contacted her when she was 35.  It's the EXACT same photo that was posted on another site 6 years ago. 

You forgot Tanya - 42 from Kiev- photo six years old or more.. or what about Larisa 39 from Vinnitsa - there's lots more but that should be enough to get Jack and other agency owners to update their sites and fix any broken/ incorrect links.... rather than posting here... for a while

This was the main reason I don't/ didn't trust agencies - how can you if they don't post accurate photos..and if the photo is old - how can one trust the info ?

I'm always thinking that all that time spent taking photos of girls in the street would be better spend, updating one's database ....

[Ben Armen]

Ask yourself this... why is Sveta Supermodel on the sight for six years?  When I can (Angelika does this) I look at profiles that are < 2years old.  Some of these sights use the pretty girls as bait, or they are picky or PD's.  This is for all sights, not a direct shot at Jack (my arms are tired  ).

Ben

[Jack]

Hey msmoby_ru, let me tell you as I just did with ccowboy in a PM.  I stopped selling addresses for the most part even before the IMBRA law passed. It's hard for guys to complain about addresses when the addresses of women they request are given to them. Yes, you heard me correctly, given to them, for free.  Up until the IMBRA law passed I mostly gave addresses for free. After the IMBRA law passed I could no longer give away free address to American men. Today if foreign men want to buy an address, or two, or five, or ten, they are shocked when I send them the addresses for free. They ask "What do I owe you" and I tell them nothing, as long as they contact the ladies within two months of their trip.   

I used to have a link on our site where I gave away free addresses, and these were quite attractive ladies. After IMBRA I had to pull the free address link down as I could no longer provide these addresses to American men, even though they were free.

For American men who might be interested in any ladies on our site, and it's mentioned on our site, just write me, tell me the ladies ID number and I will send you an e-mail address to a Russian or Ukraine agency where you can get the ladies direct contact information.  No paying for sending of e-mails, no paying for receiving e-mails, but the ladies direct contact information.

msmoby_ru we have over 2300 ladies not listed on our site. We only have 470 ladies listed, with many like those that you and ccowboy have correctly pointed out. Why do we not add these 2300 ladies to our website?  Because I do not have the interest, the time or desire to add 2300 ladies, or maintain a site with 2800 ladies. I have limited time and what I do have is mostly spent with our tours. Most of these 2300 ladies we have not listed our ladies in our tour cities. A little over three years ago I started concentrating heavily on ladies who were in our tour cities. Today when a man goes to Zaporozhye, or Volgograd or Krivoy Rog or Nikolaev or Novosibirsk, etc, etc, we can also send him another 40-60 ladies in that same city who are in the age range he is seeking, the height range he is seeking, with or without child. And about 80% of these women speak at least a little English and accept men who are at least 10 years older than themselves.

Everyday I get letters, e-mails, even phone calls of ladies wanting to be added to our agency. If I get an e-mail of a beautiful 25 year old lady and she is seeking man to 30, I don't add her.  Why?  Because I won't have many clients for her.  If I receive letter/e-mail from a lady who is good looking and speaks no English, I don't accept her.  Why?  Because I think it is mostly a waste of time for men to try to communicate with a lady they cannot talk with directly.  I don't want our clients having to have interpreters, needing to have letters translated.

msmoby_ru, and ccowboy, I do what I do because I enjoy this. I enjoy the trips to Ukraine and Russia, I enjoy being able to meet about 100 new men each year and thank goodness I have a telephone company in Dallas and don't have to make any money from my marriage agency.


(oh, and P.S., yea, I enjoy taking the photos, much more so then spending time on the website)

[Jack]

 

[GreginGa]

You forgot Tanya - 42 from Kiev- photo six years old or more.. or what about Larisa 39 from Vinnitsa - there's lots more but that should be enough to get Jack and other agency owners to update their sites and fix any broken/ incorrect links.... rather than posting here... for a while

This was the main reason I don't/ didn't trust agencies - how can you if they don't post accurate photos..and if the photo is old - how can one trust the info ?

I'm always thinking that all that time spent taking photos of girls in the street would be better spend, updating one's database ....

What about that chick Sveta the doctor from Kiev on Kiev Connections? To begin with her photo has been worked on extensively to look that good and it's also about 5 years old. My friend went out with her and took her to Yalta. She was nuts.

[Kevin]

Dan
Agencies, forums and blacklist are treated different.  For example I do not hold you responsible to the threads on your site. But I do hold an agency responsible for the text on there site. Some sites have client and I monitor the way they treat clients. But forums and blacklist sites are info sites only and have no paying clients.

I do not believe you have any evidence against any of the agencies listed on my site. Otherwise you would post it.

I have cancelled your complaint as unfounded.  It was honestly a waste of time as I sent hours trying to find the site you are referring too. If you wish to post the site I will reopen the investigation.

Please don't post anymore on this subject unless it includes the site you are reporting.

Kevin

[CCowboy]

Jack, Then what is the point of your site?  What good does it do to give away free addresses of very outdated profiles.  Just because they are free doesn't mean they are going to be of value.  Not that women are cars, but it's the same thinking as having a pristine car as a give-away but what is delivered is a clunker.  Telling a guy not to complain because it's free holds little water.  You sent me a PM but this is an open forum and a very important discussion.  Therefore, I'm posting my response to you so I don't have to duplicate it.

Jack, the woman in question is Lena #455.  She's actually now 42.  I have not been in the Russian market for 6 years.  However, I still recognize the exact same photos of 78, 486, 21, 826, and 590.  I know a man who met Ella #590.  He said she looks nothing like her photo and was 100% gold digger.  No telling how old her or other photos are.  In Ukraine numbers 176, 424, 806, 829, 174, 805, 703, 545, 90, and 756 go back several years.  The last time I was in Kiev was 2003 and all these women had these exact same photos.  This totals 16 women who have photos that are 4+ years old, and I only looked at women 35 and older.  I know this, but how will a new guy know the difference?  Is it very likely that #90 would have a 15 y.o. daughter and is seeking a man 40+?  It just doesn't add up.  Is that a photo of a 48 y.o. woman?  You need to do a lot more than remove one profile.  Your site needs a major overhaul.  Robert      

As was pointed out, you are not being singled out, it's an industry wide problem.  

[Jack]

What good is the site?  Because I do post all the new information about the upcoming tours, the upcoming Christmas and New Years in Kiev tour, then the spring 2009 tour, and in March information about the fall 2009 tour.

[Jack]

ccowboy, I am sure you got my PM, if your going to post someone of it, why not all of it. You mention nothing about the e-mail sent to the webmaster asking to remove all of the ladies you mentioned. Why not? 

[Jack]

Well, I'm really not big about posting PM's but if your going to ccowboy I think you should not pick and choose what portions you want to post but the entire thing, so let's include what you did not.


Robert, just sent the following e-mail to my webmaster. She is Ukrainian, so as with most Ukraine and Russians, I will have to ask twice.

98% of our business our the tours and services provided in connection with those tours. I am fading out the address sale of the business, have for some time. As mentioned, you want one of those 470 address, just ask, I'll send to you for free, if your not an American, if American, you will have to get from a Russian or Ukraine agency, but I send them the address and they give to you for free.

Seems you have been burnt by a lot of un-ethical agencies and you have a bad taste for all agencies. Not all agencies are alike and I think I broke the mold.

jb





----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Bragg
To: Halyna
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: remove ladies from site


Galina, we have several ladies whose photos arew quite old as well a few women who maybe gold diggers, not so sincere to find a husband.

Galina I would like to ask you to remove the following ladies from our website as soon as you can.  Don't worry about replacing them with any new women, just remove these,

455,  78,  486, 21, 826, 590, 176, 424, 806, 829, 174, 805, 703, 545, 90, and 756.

I would appreciate it if you could remove as soon as possiable.

Thanks,

Jack

[Admin]

Dan
Agencies, forums and blacklist are treated different.  For example I do not hold you responsible to the threads on your site. But I do hold an agency responsible for the text on there site. Some sites have client and I monitor the way they treat clients. But forums and blacklist sites are info sites only and have no paying clients.

I do not believe you have any evidence against any of the agencies listed on my site. Otherwise you would post it.

I have cancelled your complaint as unfounded.  It was honestly a waste of time as I sent hours trying to find the site you are referring too. If you wish to post the site I will reopen the investigation.

Please don't post anymore on this subject unless it includes the site you are reporting.

Kevin

Kevin,

Responding to your comments:

>>Agencies, forums and blacklist are treated different.  For example I do not hold you responsible to the threads on your site. But I do hold an agency responsible for the text on there site. Some sites have client and I monitor the way they treat clients. But forums and blacklist sites are info sites only and have no paying clients.<<

So you seem to be saying that "forums and blacklist sites" are exempt from any ethics or honesty breaches. Is that correct Kevin?

Also - out of curiosity, why is it that "paying clients" makes ANY DIFFERENCE in YOUR assessment of ethical and honest behavior?!? Sounds like more 'situational ethics' Kevin.

>>I do not believe you have any evidence against any of the agencies listed on my site. Otherwise you would post it.<<

Kevin, I assure you that the information you have received are exact quotations. I further attest that every word I have written in this topic is completely truthful, with verified and incontrovertible evidence to back-up every word.

The *real* issue is that you will NOT take a position regarding your action if/when you find a site owner culpable for promoting lies, and encouraging violation of US laws. Why is that Kevin?

>>I have cancelled your complaint as unfounded.  It was honestly a waste of time as I sent hours trying to find the site you are referring too. If you wish to post the site I will reopen the investigation.<<

ROFLMAO - you have "cancelled my complaint" and "will reopen the investigation"?!? OK... whatever.

>>Please don't post anymore on this subject unless it includes the site you are reporting.<<

Kevin, you should expect that - so long as you are promoting your site that claims to list "Honest Marriage Agencies" and contains a site that I *know* has an owner who:

* Encourages western men to lie to RW, and
* Provides instruction to American guys to circumvent US law.

You are going to see my pointing it out.

Cleanse the site of such vermin, and you will again find me among your strongest supporters.

- Dan

[CCowboy]

Jack, I received your second PM as I was writing my post.  I wasn't aware of it.  I was about to post your response but you've taken care of that.  Promoting your tours is fine.  Maintaining out-dated profiles is not.  I'm just one guy who pointed out 16 out-dated profiles that you say will be removed.  How many more exist?  It's your responsibility to maintain your site, not others like me.  I'm sure other guys also have knowledge of additional out-dated profiles.  For me this has been an ongoing problem since I started using agencies, and the agencies I used usually came recommended by others.  Unfortunately, it takes time for all these problems to surface.  For the very few agencies that are honest and professional, there are too many that are not.  There are just much better options than using an agency.  But everyone needs to follow their own path.   

[Jack]

ccowboy, not all our profiles are out of date, we have added many new ladies in the past 4-8 months, in the past year, 16 months. If all our profiles were out of date I would agree with you, but they are not.  YES, we have some out of date profiles, no doubt.  One gentleman (you) just made me aware of several that were, it took me all of 20 seconds to ask for those profiles to be removed.

We already have plans in the work to redo the site. It just takes time and as mentioned I spend most my time on what I enjoy the most, the group and individual tours. But I expect in the next few months you will see a new site which will detail the 2600-2900 ladies we have in the many various cities, links to those cities and photos of several, not all, but several of the ladies in the 35 to 45 cities we have a large concentration of ladies. When a man knows he is going to Tver or Murmansk, Kazan, Omsk, Rostov, or Kherson, Lviv, Cherkassy or Sevastopol and he wants me to help him find several ladies in those cities, not a problem. Even though I think Kiev is not the best city for wife hunting, have over 780 ladies just from Kiev. Have over 500 ladies from Moscow, and several hundred from Odessa and St. Pete, all cities I think are not the best for seeking a wife, but guys do go to these cities and if their going, I can help.

As I mentioned to you in a PM, address sales is not where it's at, never has been, helping guys to meet many ladies they have interest in, without 6 months of bs writing,  meeting ladies within two months of writing, this is where it is at. It is, it will be a numbers game except that 17.8% of guys who will only write one, visit one lady. 


You have a bad taste for agencies, so of course do not recommend them. Many guys do not have the years it takes to learn of many things involved with the pursuit for a Russian bride. Unlike you many guys do not want to have to figure out how to get that flat in Volvograd, to find honest and good interpreter in Odessa, or how to get to Donestk and be met at the airport or how to run that newspaper ad in Samara. Some guys ccowboy want to pay someone they TRUST to do many of those things for them.

[ecr844]

***NOTE: I'm not taking sides and could careless about your pissing contests previous to this message as well. But I do think what follows is "CURIOUS"***

I notice no one has mentioned the fact that "Jack," has been sending out spam emails advertising his services to people who aren't and never were his clients, ever sent him an email asking about his services, etc...

How do I know, because I recieve these messages directly into my email "Spam" folder. Now where does one suppose he got the email addresses of people like myself who I mention above?....I also know I'm not the only one to get these either..


Things that make you go HMMMMM....

[Jack]

You know Eric Jones, you posted this lie on another discussion board the first of the year. 

Since you have brought up your lie for a second time I spammed you from you being a member of a discussion board, let me share with you YOUR e-mail to me.

Hope you keep copies of your outgoing e-mails. I keep copies of my incoming e-mails, to bad for you.   Whoops, guess you got caught with your pants down Eric.  Go ahead you can apoligize now.

Things that make you go  hummmmm?



----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Jones
To: nunya@ix.netcom.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:08 AM
Subject: re:Russianwomendiscussion PM


Jack,

  I post on RWD as ECR844, here's my e-mail address as requested. Thanks,
Eric

[ecr844]

Now how about including the full text of that email as well as the the part where I at any point request your services...Thanks..

*Edited to add: Also are you insinuating that anyone who emails you from their personal email is now asking for your spam to be sent even if they aren't requesting your services or looking to become a client..Just curious, and you'll haev to do better than pseudo obfuscation "Jack,"..

[CCowboy]

Jack, this whole thread was started by Kevin asking for men's opinions regarding what makes an agency trustworthy.  I imagine his ultimate goal was to be able to promote his "honest agencies".  Instead it opened up a whole can of worms.  I'm not on a witch hunt.  But I decided to check out the agencies on his "honest agency" list that do business in cities I've visited.  Since you're an agency owner and promote your agency on RWD, I decided to check out your agency as well, which I had never done before.  I can list just as many if not more outdated profiles from the other agencies.  I can do the same things with other agencies not part of the "honest agency" group.  I can visit agency sites in St. Petersburg and point out profiles that are 9+ years old....same photos.  So now you're in a damage control mode.  You've promised to clean up your site and even have a completely new site in a few months.  What would have happened had this thread never started?  Would it have been business as usual with First Dream?  The point I'm trying to make is that maintaining your's and other sites is an ongoing project.  They should ALWAYS be reasonably current.  Profiles that have not been updated in 4-6 years is not being current and totally unacceptable.  Having profiles on any site that are so outdated is misleading and dishonest.  It raises a big red flag with that agency.  A guy shouldn't be put into a position of planning a trip and meeting women based on profiles that are outdated and often non existent.  It's not until he's spent thousands of dollars on his trip does he find out he's been scammed.  And yes, this sort of business by an agency is a scam.  I'll admit that I have a very jaded opinion of agencies, and I'm not alone.  Robert  

[Jack]

Sure Eric, here is all your header information.

So how again did I get your e-mail address Eric?

Makes one wonder,  hummmmmm?






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[ecr844]

Umm.. Your missing the "full text" of said email, since your only trying to disseminate the parts that suit you..

Now how about including the full text of that email as well as the the part where I at any point request your services...Thanks..

*Edited to add: Also are you insinuating that anyone who emails you from their personal email is now asking for your spam to be sent even if they aren't requesting your services or looking to become a client..Just curious, and you'll have to do better than pseudo obfuscation "Jack,"..

[Jack]

I can list just as many if not more outdated profiles from the other agencies.  I can do the same things with other agencies not part of the "honest agency" group.  I can visit agency sites in St. Petersburg and point out profiles that are 9+ years old....same photos. 

Oh Man, your good ccowboy!

What would have happened had this thread never started?  Would it have been business as usual with First Dream? 

This thread, these discussions, would have had no bearing on what was already being planned and discussed. This has been in the works for a few months now.

and even have a completely new site in a few months. 

Noo, those are your words not mine.  A new site in many ways, but not a "completely" new site.  Many of the things, our history, information about tours, references (real references, not made up references), many of the photos will remain, etc, etc. Adress sales will probably be removed all together.  But their will be more written about helping guys going to many various cities and wanting to increase the number of ladies they can meet in these cities with many photos of ladies in these cities.

Having profiles on any site that are so outdated is misleading and dishonest.  It raises a big red flag with that agency. 

Oh my gosh!  Elena's Models, AFA, many sites who advertise here to name a few, all are dishonest in ccowboy's opinion. So be it.






Ok all, just a little notice. Unless I see another outright lie being told about me, such as the case with Eric Jones, I have a lot of work I have to do now and hope not to post anymore today.