So Few Actually Visit

[ScottinCrimea]

It's called gravity, Gator.  I'mm sure that you have some experience with it.   

[Ooooops]

If you look at RW over 50, very few have that same body, as if their legs shrunk.

In USSR we used to joke that women's arms get stretched all the way to the ground and legs get worn out up to their arse from carrying heavy avos'ka bags with groceries.    So if you want your wife remained long legged - carry groceries for her!   

[Gator]

It's called gravity, Gator.  I'mm sure that you have some experience with it.   

Making fun of your elders again.    Yes, even my hair is migrating lower.

[steviej]

Re: "The legs on many of them go to their shoulders.  What puzzles me, where did they go?  If you look at RW over 50, very few have that same body, as if their legs shrunk."

Yeah, I wondered that myself. I guess it could have something to do with that "long hard life" thing. Certainly the women of that generation didn't have time, energy or money for any "health club" membership activities. Or could it be the way they dress? I know many of the older FSU women I've met, they wear almost the more traditional stuff, sort of big, flowing wrap around stuff. I don't know what to call it, but its very "peasant" looking. I know my mother in law is covered pretty much head to toe when she goes out. But, having stayed with them many times, I've seen her in, shall we say, much less clothing sometimes? And she is a very nice looking woman. I'm ashamed to say I've even felt attracted to her in more than just a "mother-in-law" way a couple times ...

[Gator]

TMI

[msmoby_ru]

Almost every experienced poster here has advised to take my time in this pursuit. Decisions made in haste are repented in leisure. For now I would simply sample the ice cream.

You didn't hear "take your time" from me.... ..

I have talked to every lady who wrote 2- 4 emails, on the phone. They all seemed interesting and interested, but eager to meet, and not eager to correspond.

Mate, that's because they've been "ruined" by the "keyboard romeos" ( do I need to pay royalities for using this great expression) who've come before you... sorry, but you can't blame them...

One can tell abut someone when they talk the time to write; my experience is that they are not interested in writing.

Matey, my wife's english wasn't great.. rusty - shall we say - and I'd made a rule NOT to communicate with a basic English speaker... but you know what? .. she took the time and trouble to express her fears / emotions and day by day her English improved and we talked more and emailed /  less.

If they can communicate well in English, they don't need to write much, but she will, anyway !.. You both will have real lives and time constraints and putting a few words in an email and receiving it is a good feeling.

Lastly, if you are too worried about airfare cost... forget courting a FSU woman.. they need to fly home !! ... I wish it only cost $3000 to fly to from Siberia and we're in Europe !!

The advice from I/O is "harsh" - but sound

[GreginGa]

The most it has ever cost me to fly is around $1200 in summer. I've used miles on the last 2 tickets I purchased so maybe they've gone up that much. I live on the east coast and I've flew just about every route there is except NYC to Kiev. We're going to try that in September. It used to kill me then these guys in Europe would make a big deal about getting on a plane for  2 or 3 hours to go try and find the right Sveta.  Now Australia or New Zealand is a different story.

I would hate to be trying to date internationally these days with the state of economics. The Euro is just kicking our ass, gas is sky high. A guy better be rich or frugal when he embarks on this quest these days.

[viking]

The most it has ever cost me to fly is around $1200 in summer. I've used miles on the last 2 tickets I purchased so maybe they've gone up that much. I live on the east coast and I've flew just about every route there is except NYC to Kiev. We're going to try that in September. It used to kill me then these guys in Europe would make a big deal about getting on a plane for  2 or 3 hours to go try and find the right Sveta.  Now Australia or New Zealand is a different story.

I would hate to be trying to date internationally these days with the state of economics. The Euro is just kicking our ass, gas is sky high. A guy better be rich or frugal when he embarks on this quest these days.

Which brings up a point that has been discussed before but now perhaps even more critical. No one ever said this was an inexpensive endevour but with rising air fares, cost of flats, food, etc.. are the women more understanding that to visit one person, after a few letters, may not be in the best interest of the AM? Some guys have been successful in finding that one gem, and after months of letter writing and phone calls hops on and a plane and is met by someone who turns out to be his partner for life. But this is more a rarity. But if every women wants to meet you after a few letters, one cannot make a trip a month to see each individual. The VO trips may become less viable. Sure each woman would want to know you are coming to see only her, but if she understood that more men may actually get on a plane if there were going to be multiple contacts, perhaps more men may get on a plane. Would any one know if this attitude is changing these days?

[msmoby_ru]

Which brings up a point that has been discussed before but now perhaps even more critical. No one ever said this was an inexpensive endeavour but with rising air fares, cost of flats, food, etc.. are the women more understanding that to visit one person, after a few letters, may not be in the best interest of the AM?

Why should they be more understanding.?!. if we can't afford to fly there ourselves, then how can one be serious about the future.. AFTER marriage- trips home, planned and unplanned!

Some guys have been successful in finding that one gem,

.. but was that luck?! ...

 

..and after months of letter writing and phone calls hops on and a plane and is met by someone who turns out to be his partner for life. But this is more a rarity.

..I reckon if you take months, chances are you've blown it, already.. ! How do *you* know she isn't keeping a "plan B" WM .. more likely, if you take too long to come..  I speak from experience, as I have spent many's a Saturday afternoon on a beach or in a Taverna ,discussing these things with FSU women ( some in relationships - some not )  in Cyprus - whose English is good, and we discussed our feelings about folk we corresponded with.. ( hence the situation where two of them found they were expecting the same AM ! !!!  ) 

But if every women wants to meet you after a few letters, one cannot make a trip a month to see each individual. The VO trips may become less viable.

If you're honest with one's self and the lady, she shouldn't EXPECT you to be flying to her, unless one has declared some special interest.. but again, it comes down to .. are you really in the game or just having "fun" ?! Why go to visit many female "penpals", hopefully expecting a "result" .. ?

Sure each woman would want to know you are coming to see only her, but if she understood that more men may actually get on a plane if there were going to be multiple contacts, perhaps more men may get on a plane. Would any one know if this attitude is changing these days?

I don't believe a woman's feelings will change because of the economic climate...  this isn't about buying a car..  IMHO, WMVM trips are LESS likely to succeed because the lady knows/ feels she is in some sort of competition... most women are looking for a "one woman man" .. Methinks, WMVM are "saying" EXACTLY the wrong thing to a woman they may be hoping to catch.

[Ooooops]

Sure each woman would want to know you are coming to see only her, but if she understood that more men may actually get on a plane if there were going to be multiple contacts, perhaps more men may get on a plane.

You gotta be kidding, right?    So I should be happy to know that some guy will come to visit me at all because he made it financially plausible by visiting 10 other girls at the same time???!!!     

[groovlstk]

I have read that many are actually married men acting out virtual fantasies of wishing they were single and going to marry a beautiful russian woman, and lead these ladies on and build virtual relationships, except for one thing .. they don't have any intention of actually going. They really do not understand that these are real flesh and blood women with hopes, dreams, desires, and the belief that one of these men is really going to be the great husband she wants that she loves, and loves her back.

There are many sick loser men online who engage in this sort of thing. Antidate even has a robust discussion thread on men who suddenly "die" on the eve of a first meeting. I don't think these sick losers are unaware that there is a real flesh and blood woman on the other end of their hijinks, in fact I think that's the perverse attraction.

[viking]

Moby

 I have been to the FSU several times and have found a woman (met with her several times and all VO) with whom I am in an advanced stage of our relationship. I have not written an introductory letter in a long time. I just threw out this question to see if anything has changed based upon the economics of the global economy over the last year or so. I see your answer is no.

Oooops

I completely understand where you are coming from on this. And there has been much debate on VO versus VM. And even further debate on whether the women know that the visit is a VM.  I am just WONDERING if in todays climate there might be more VM than VO.  Just a simple question. Are RWs expectations any different? See above. I see your answer is the same as Moby. No.

Some times, to drive home a point, one might take the debate to a point where it becomes  absurd.
For example. If the trip form NY to Moscow took 30 minutes, cost $40, no visa necessary, everyone spoke english, how many men might pop on a plane Saturday morning, meet a gal for coffee in the afternoon to see her in person,, and be home in time to catch a late night football game? If the trip took 5 days of travel, cost $50,000, had to spend 3 months getting a visa, had to pass a comprehensive medical and psychological exam, ...now how many men would get on a plane? If the women knew this, would their expectations for a meeting be the same former versus latter? Just a question.

[msmoby_ru]

Moby

 I have been to the FSU several times and have found a woman (met with her several times and all VO) with whom I am in an advanced stage of our relationship. I have not written an introductory letter in a long time. I just threw out this question to see if anything has changed based upon the economics of the global economy over the last year or so. I see your answer is no.

Hi Viking ... I need to make it clear to you that I understood your question, and I knew of your situation, so my reply was in no way meant to offend !

My "no" is based on the opinions of FSU women we know, who are still on the dating scene.

Some times, to drive home a point, one might take the debate to a point where it becomes  absurd.
For example. If the trip form NY to Moscow took 30 minutes, cost $40, no visa necessary, everyone spoke english, how many men might pop on a plane Saturday morning, meet a gal for coffee in the afternoon to see her in person,, and be home in time to catch a late night football game? If the trip took 5 days of travel, cost $50,000, had to spend 3 months getting a visa, had to pass a comprehensive medical and psychological exam, ...now how many men would get on a plane? If the women knew this, would their expectations for a meeting be the same former versus latter? Just a question.

Too absurd, to comment.. other than, AGAIN, if you can't afford to date, marry and fly her home / pay for a family member to come to you -once a year or even biannually -don't begin the search! This lady will need to "lean" on you, no matter how wealthy she is, as it's going to be all new for her.. and most ladies want some independence.. so they must trust you.

If this was so easy, there'd be a lot MORE FSU women in the west and there'd be less mystique!!

*IF* we were "sensible" we'd be looking for FSU women already on our doorstep - that applied directly to me - as I've got 15,000 within 50 miles of me, but when did "sense" come into this ?

I know there's large FSU communities in beautiful areas, like Colorado, and there must be plenty of divorced FSU ladies there.. or do we all think living in the west makes these ladies unsuitable ?!

When I read of a guy bemoaning the fact he's a long way from home, lonely and wondering WHY he's there.. I smile and think.. he'll soon be in front of that screen making the same "mistake" again...

[msmoby_ru]

There are many sick loser men online who engage in this sort of thing. Antidate even has a robust discussion thread on men who suddenly "die" on the eve of a first meeting. I don't think these sick losers are unaware that there is a real flesh and blood woman on the other end of their hijinks, in fact I think that's the perverse attraction.

This isn't so uncommon.. I know of one very pretty, intelligent,  ( though lacking in common sense) Russian lady with her own successful biz, who is still "on the shelf", who met with one man, and nearly met t'other who were married..  I know for sure, that she now puts the guys through the ringer and insists on home numbers and calls at random..  Yet another lady "spoilt" for those of you who really want to settle down.

This is why *I* contend.. it's going to get harder and harder to be successful.. The guys will think the ladies are too "pushy" - ask too many direct questions and the FSU women will trust WM less.   

[viking]

I live within a 40 minute car ride from Brighton Beach , Brooklyn. Supposedly the largest single Russian population outside of Russia. So how did I wind up with a relationship in Belarus? Go figure. You are right. No sense to this at all. BTW. No offense taken.

[Ooooops]

...now how many men would get on a plane?

How many men a woman needs?   Only one eventually.   

[Taz]

A lot of this has to do with (un)realistic expectations. The harder it is for men to come to visit, the less men that will do so. Over time the women will either have to settle for what is available or continue in their current existence which wasn’t to their liking in the first place or they wouldn’t be searching. Another option I see is that with less men coming over, a woman might be likely to use what is available to get herself to another country and then begin her search anew; GCG in other words.

Whether the woman cares about how easy or not financially it is for a man to come see her has little effect on the laws of supply and demand. If costs become prohibitive like they’ve already started to, then soon there will be more supply than the demand. At some point the women will have no choice but to notice that less men are showing up than before. They’ll have basically 2 choices; lower their price (i.e. demands) or take themselves off the market so to speak.

There is almost no way at this point that I would write just one woman to visit if I were starting from scratch. How do YOU know she doesn’t have something on the side to take care of her needs while looking for someone else that is a better long-term prospect? Same goes for you? How does she know that you aren’t romancing a few at home?

To a great extent it is trust but how well can you trust someone you’ve never met? If you do you have less common sense than you truly need. That is why I never write before going over. If I am live and in the flesh it means more than 500 letters I may write. I can easily write the letters later if she wants but at least we know each other is real!

These guys who “claim” they knew she was THE woman before they met need to open up a magic show or buy lottery tickets. If they have that level of clairvoyance their talents are wasted in whatever profession they are in. It is pretty much luck. You have almost no way of knowing that it is a real person writing you or not some agency schlep doing it. To many gotchas. If it worked for you, good for you! Even a first time golfer can hit a hole in one but that doesn't make them an expert. I've hit a hole in one several times yet I still suck at golf!

I don’t have a bad income by a long shot but I am not going to just throw my money away. The cost of a trip to see just one woman from scratch would run me close to $3000-3500 by the time I factor in airfare, food, travel in country, lodging, childcare for my kids while I am gone, etc. That means I have to gross about $5,500 or so before I pay the taxes on my income to end up with that $3,500. So in effect I have about $5,500 invested in that trip. Not to mention my vacation time is worth something in the grand scheme of things as well. So my one trip could be worth the entire income of some of these women for several years. Is she willing to bet 2-3 years of her wages on 1 person?

Hopefully the woman can understand there is a balance. It is also a contest of sort. She is trying to win my attention and I hers. If she isn’t good enough to keep my attention over 2 or 3 other women I might meet then tough luck. Same goes for me, if I am not a good enough suitor then I am out too. At least I’ll have another 2 or 3 to consider if I follow the WMVM routine. WOVO has a greater financial risk every year. So if I am going to take this greater risk there better be a much better ROI! In other words the prize better befit my increased investment. If not, what is the point?

I can easily find decent AW here. I have an excellent career, well educated, caring, etc. etc. but I am really tired of the overweight women here who want me to worship them. Sorry I am not into BBW. Unfortunately where I live 80-90% of the over 30 women are that size. Why should I settle? I don’t have to so I don’t. The ones that aren’t that size have more emotional baggage than I care to deal with. I have a lot to give a women in all areas and I expect a lot in return. I don’t demand it but I expect it. If she doesn’t want to give in return then I’ll find someone else.

So by visiting there first, I can quickly tell if there is a good connection. The women know I am real and not a keyboard Romeo. We can meet and spend time with each other and see if things click. If they do there will be plenty of time to write letters and call. There are of course a few downsides to this approach but they are better than the other alternatives and I have tried both.

[viking]

Taz

I agree with you. Some may not like putting all this into financial terms, but again, dont most of us continue to say this is an EXPENSIVE pursuit? Its not a question of being stingy or greedy. It is the reality of the situation. As I tried to say up thread, the more expensive it becomes to travel, the less people will travel. And if less men go over, will not the women become more understanding of the fact that if you do get your butt on the plane you may want to see more than one woman? Blues Fairy made the point you are going to meet women just having a cup of java in a cafe, or going to get some supplies for the flat.

Or...as I am starting to see in some newer profiles, the women begin to look for partners closer by. Like Europe versus North America.

[Taz]

Often many women looked for European men. At that time the European men still seemed pretty happy with their women. I think that is sort of changing too. I spent a LOT of time in Germany and the average woman there is expanding quite a bit too if you get my drift.

This isn't a cheap pursuit for anyone. It is slightly cheaper for the Europeans due to the reduced travel costs and the climbing value of the Euro. It is still becoming more expensive for everyone involved. The women need to wise up sooner or later. If not they aren't intelligent enough to be the kind of woman I'd be interested in anyway. At some point the higher costs weed out all but the most affluent and they can pretty much have anyone they want from their own country anyway. 

If I am going to all this trouble and expense, I sure want something worthy of my efforts. To do anything less if foolish and I should just "settle". I am not the type of person to settle for anything. I worked my butt off in school in an incredible difficult course of study. I have an excellent career that wasn't just handed to me. I put in the effort to learn Russian. I am willing to give my heart to the appropriate woman. I have a lot to give the right person so I definitely want a good woman. She is will receive a good man in return.

I did forget to add one thing so I am correcting it now. I've lived many places in the world and I often feel out of place in the US. My views are markedly different from many of the women here so there tends to be less comfortable to interact with them. They tend to be very shallow. I've always been drawn to Russian women since the first time I met them many years ago (back in the 70's). As a result a RW/UW seems normal to me in many ways and the AW seem odd.

[Ooooops]

It is very sad for me to read that "goodness" of a woman is measured in pounds and inches versus her  character traits...       

[Taz]

Quite honestly almost nobody wants someone that is 100lbs overweight. Both men AND women discriminate based on weight. I know. I almost died and gained over 120 lbs. Do you think women looked at me the same when I was 360lbs as I was 240lbs? HELL NO! Where was my goodness to them then?

I am one of the few people here that have gone through that. If a women doesn't care enough to take care of herself and keep herself in reasonable shape then I am not interested. I worked my @$$ to get back in shape. I expect the same. I don't ask for any more than I am wiling to give myself. Why would I want to date a woman that I am not emotionally AND physically attractive to?

The attitude you espouse is the same attitude that the Feminazis have for many years and is why American men now search for RW. The RW typically take better care of themselves and I know that I personally appreciate that. If I want a cow, I'll go to my grandparent's farm and visit one there.

I run a minimum 40 minutes every day. I work out with weights for at least another 30 minutes every day. I study and work on personal improvement. I am not a tub of lard. I want a woman that will at least be relatively close to me in her desire to improve herself. One of the ways I can measure her overall goodness is in inches (centimeters) and pounds (kilograms). It is just one of MANY tools.

Women measure men in their own ways too. They measure the man's attentiveness, how caring he is, often his salary or what he gifts her. You seem old enough to not be so naive...

Would you marry a man you weren't physicall attractive too? All things being equal I'd prefer a more attractive woman over a less attractive one. I do place an emphasis on personality and not just physical looks. Myrddin and SwissKid will attest to that. I want a woman with a great personality AND is attractive too! No 100kg heifer on the hoof needs to apply!

[Ooooops]

The attitude you espouse is the same attitude that the Feminazis have for many years and is why American men now search for RW.

O, c'mon, be honest with yourself - it's not why some (!) American men search for a Russian/Philippino/Thai/ etc woman.       Otherwise it sounds really shallow and sad - what if a wife/husband due to some circumstances will loose that perfect look?   Ditch them and go find a new Barby/Ken doll? 

[Taz]

Some men look for a subservient robot. I am not that kind of man. I want a well-educated woman who will be my partner that I am physically and emotionally attracted to. Better to live alone than with somone I am not interested in.

So do just the "losers" of RW/UW search for a foreigner? Obviously if they were the cream of the crop they would have found someone locally...

[steviej]

... I am really tired of the overweight women here who want me to worship them ... Sorry I am not into BBW. Unfortunately where I live 80-90% of the over 30 women are that size.

 LOL - really, AWs = BBW + Baggage ... 

For any of you AWs that might read all this, I apologize, but really, where DID all these BBWs come from in the last 10 years ??? I know from memory that when I was in high school, the girls were slender and attractive. The phrase "BBW" didn't exist, and didn't even NEED to exist. My RW and I have been happily married for over 5 yrs now, so I'm not actively searching or anything. But my RW wife, she just continues to be astonished at how AWs let themselves get fat, and go out in public in flip-flops and sweat pants. My wife has a beautiful figure and in the 7 years that we've been together/married, its never changed by more than 1 pound. And she never goes out of the house without looking really nice. And truth be told,  I've never seen her not looking real nice just around the house. And you know what? I really appreciate it and enjoy. She likes to be attractive for me and its wonderful. And I confess, it keeps me on my toes too. I think I definitely live a more healthy lifestyle because of her. For whatever overall reasons that would be hard to say, my experience (and I have a lot) says that at this point in time, the average RW has it ALL OVER the average AW. Well, OK, end of speech. I guess I got a little off topic there.

[Ooooops]

I want a well-educated woman who will be my partner that I am physically and emotionally attracted to.

And there is nothing wrong with it.   But it doesn't look very good when in the process you trample other women only because they don't look attractive to you.    Once a gentlemen always a gentlemen.   You can't turn it on and off from 9 to 5.