Risky Business

[vwrw]

Also note that a man willing and ready to marry is still a rare beast in Russia;

It never seemed to me that a man willing to marry was a rare beast in Russia. So I decided to look for statistical data.

In 2003 there were registered 1092,6 thousands of marriages In Russia. 
In 2004 there were registered 979,7 thousands of marriages.
Since 2005 there is stable growth in the number of marriages registered.
In 2007 there were registered 1262,6 thousands of marriages.

http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2008/0323/barom04.php

Thus, more than one million men are getting married each year!

[Blues Fairy]

Thus, more than one million men are getting married each year!

Good for them!   But are you sure all of them were willing and ready? 

[HiTech]

"all men cheat." I have had this conversation with Alyona. She was told the same.

[vwrw]

Good for them!   But are you sure all of them were willing and ready? 

Touché 

[KenC]

"all men cheat." I have had this conversation with Alyona. She was told the same.

Don't worry too much about it HiTech, she'll get over it in about 7 years or so!
KenC

[Gator]

Regarding the comments about RW "marrying with the hope of falling in love,"  the unpublished and disputed Chester Arthur statistical study of RW-AM marriages around 1997-2001 reported the following two findings:

-  60% of the women did not love their husbands when they married

-  99% of the men 'loved' their wives when they married.

Considering the short time men were spending with RW before deciding to marry in those years, the findings seem reasonable.

[Gator]

"Woman enters into marriage hoping her man will change; and he never does.
Man enters into marriage expecting his woman will never change; and she always does."

I heard this several times and I believe it is true for many couples.

When discussing this with a couple of intelligent AW, they told me, "Of course we change:  as a result of improving and growing we have become different from our younger selves."

[Ronnie]

Hitech,
You are right in your post about everything except the part about there being no foundation for my proposing the theory that Maxx's "Elvira" was not so unusual or so bad as he has long painted.

The foundation is clear.. She was in a K1 situation and as Jack and others have confirmed, these women have little to go on but hope...a wing and a prayer..as I called it.  Let's face it.  Most of us go to the FSU and it's like being kids in the proverbial candy shop.  We pick much more attractive and usually younger women.  That means the the woman has the inverse to deal with...an older man, probably less attractive than they'd prefer.  Could they fall for man at first sight?  Yes, of course..in that they're no different from any other woman on the planet.  But they are first and foremost pragmatists.  They have been taught to be that way by generations of difficult living.

So to say I'm guessing about Elvira without any foundation, I can't agree with.  The rest of what you said I do agree with.  And guys, it may be like when my wife asks the question "why"  when it comes to some English grammar.  I tell her that I don't know why and I can assure her that if she worries about why instead of what, she will struggle with the language.  Learning to deal with women, especially FSUW, is much the same way.

[Ronnie]

It's interesting to see it posted here that the RW worries more about if the man loves her than if she loves the man.  I believe this is true.  I have long thought, perhaps mistakenly, that when your wife asks if you love her, she is wanting to say she loves you.

Now I believe that is only partly true, she is really mostly looking for reassurance that you love her.

[BC]

I have long thought, perhaps mistakenly, that when your wife asks if you love her, she is wanting to say she loves you.

Now I believe that is only partly true, she is really mostly looking for reassurance that you love her.

hmm... I can't recall my wife ever asking me if I loved her..

[Blues Fairy]

It's interesting to see it posted here that the RW worries more about if the man loves her than if she loves the man. 

I did mention it was only true for some RW, but not all.  Mostly those who were taught from childhood to place little value on their own likes and dislikes, and submit, at least in major decisions, to the authority of others. 

When I was young and still in close contact with my folks, they went out of their way to hint that I should marry my first suitor, a Russian guy who was head over heals in love and overall a very "nice boy".  They would often say, "Who else will ever love you like that?!"  My own feelings, incidentally, were not taken into account.  Sure enough, I wasn't too excited to realize that I was of such little worth in their eyes.  And sure they were extremely dismayed when I decided to take a different course.

[Jumper]

Wow!  This is very important information as I see it.  Thanks for sharing Blues Fairy.
KenC

KenC-
important yes,
and BF's comments seem a normal RW outlook  to me from almost every RW i know (inclusive of my wife ,her mother, her sister, aunt ,,etc etc)

As far as true love(a hard emotion or situation to  define)
I would say my wife fell in *true love* with me after marriage.
this despite the time spent prior to engagement and marriage.
I would say with some certainty that she operated under the belief that a good man,of good character who loved you, was more important than your initial love for him.
and very similasr to BF's description
 her mother often chided her, "he is a very good man, and wants to marry you, what else do you want?" maybe not those exact words ,,but certainly that line of thinking.
I would say she cared for me,,
 and had a long hard decision,
to make a commitment  -
as to her it was a final decision,and choice.. ,despite wether she ever did fall in ,true love with me or not.If she made it she would stand by it. (stubborness and determination are certainly big traits)

I do think she *loved* me.. but there ARE degrees of love, to think not if silly.

my wife refers to what we have now as "big love"
(the love two deeply commited infatuated people feel ,esprecially  long term)

regardless  
I knew these various degrees,at least in my own case,
 even posted about it long ago on RWG
and the truth is, I took a calculated ,HUGE, risk.

Maxx is right, i got lucky.
 I based my decision ,on her character,(i could have been wrong)
 i knew her to be a person that would face every situation with total effort and commitment,and would stand by her decisions regardless,and make every effort to see things thru if possible.
(turns out i was right)
  if things had not worked out ,she would be fair in the resolution.
( possibly never know)
Thats all i could ask.given the situation.

i'm a realist .despite a lot of time together, i knew this to be the only level this partiucular RW could likely achieve.
 i knew her to be far too cautious and guarded to fall in complete infauted type of love in this scenerio, it just wasnt "her" and never would be. like groov we had plenty of conflict..and willingness
to walk away as well ,but something was still there..that "possibilty"
we both knew existed and took our respective chances on!
It was refreshing and made it ,more real and honest to me.
Real sincere ,*Head of heals in love* (with her characxter) would have made me blink a bit..
I wouldnt have questioned the sincerety, i would have questioned her sanity and felt it likely simple  infatuation that might easily wear off as quickly as it materialized.
 

some may find that insanity.
certainly the romatic dreamers who can only marry with both parties
 in true *dreamy love* will, and i understand and respect that.

My own take is very VERY few of these situations are like that romantic
thought.
so you can choose to have your eyes open and take the risk,,
(evaulate her character as best you can)
and understand there are varing degress of love.
(commitment is another story and a character trait more than anythin gelse IMHO)

or wait for that deep special love,
 which often is simply initiai infatuation,
and despite what the parties think at the time.
is also simply a stepping stone and a hope of what "can possibly*
 be ni ntime.
and it takes time to understand and materialize?

much like the other scenerio..just with a different beginning.(more romantic and less pragmatic)

maybe i've just been around Russians to much?  I consider myself romantic, but seems by action i'm quite pragmatic.







****************

on making maxxs ex out to be anything like
the many decent hearted RW that come here in good faith.
put in real EFFORT to the relationship ,
and  with hopes of a good family life,but things simply dont work out.
Pa'lease!
 There ARE bad and incredibly immature ,selfish, self centered people in the world!!
 and you know  some are even Russian in nationality.
There is little doubt she was one.

To crucify Maxx about the details of his story or make him out in some strange light  is bizarre.
To do so under the guise of enlightment  for new guys is equally bizarre.

Why is it so hard to imagine a RW who is selfish to the point of great immaturity, a past history of treating RM poorly as well..
and with little to no sincerity to maxx, or marriage to him.

it IS one of the risks.

[Ronnie]

AJ,

I admit I haven't read the full account but I have read much of what Maxx wrote 4-5 years ago.   What I have not read is a single word from Elvira.  Maybe you could direct me to her postings. Or, so as not to trouble you too much, could you summarize her version of events

[KenC]

Ronnie,
To my knowledge, Elvira never posted on any message board I know of and it is kind of foolish for you to expect that she has.
KenC

[steviej]

KenC-
important yes,
and BF's comments seem a normal RW outlook  to me from almost every RW i know (inclusive of my wife ,her mother, her sister, aunt ,,etc etc)

As far as true love(a hard emotion or situation to  define)
I would say my wife fell in *true love* with me after marriage.
this despite the time spent prior to engagement and marriage.
I would say with some certainty that she operated under the belief that a good man,of good character who loved you, was more important than your initial love for him.
and very similasr to BF's description
 her mother often chided her, "he is a very good man, and wants to marry you, what else do you want?" maybe not those exact words ,,but certainly that line of thinking.
I would say she cared for me,,
 and had a long hard decision,
to make a commitment  -
as to her it was a final decision,and choice.. ,despite wether she ever did fall in ,true love with me or not.If she made it she would stand by it. (stubborness and determination are certainly big traits)

I do think she *loved* me.. but there ARE degrees of love, to think not if silly.

my wife refers to what we have now as "big love"
(the love two deeply commited infatuated people feel ,esprecially  long term)

AJ, very good post! I think my wife is very similar to the way you describe yours. And certainly her family  - very traditional Russian. I know guys at work that say the first two years of their marriage were the best. For me and my Ulyana I would say the last 2 have been the best so far, and it keeps getting better. That reminds me very much of your wife's "big love". It really amazes me, and its wonderful, because I remember so well in my first marriage how, at the 5 yrs mark, I knew in my heart is was already over (and I did my duty as father and provider after that)

Whatever all these elements of the "mysterious Russian woman's soul" are, when it clicks, its really great. Layers and layers. I guess that result from the googoo eyed OMBs here is part of what keeps the newbies going there ... it really can work out, for both the man and woman - work out great!

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,
To my knowledge, Elvira never posted on any message board I know of and it is kind of foolish for you to expect that she has.
KenC

I was kinda thinking that too. 

So let's see. 

We listen to one side of a story and draw our opinions. 

A judge listens to both sides and concludes something else. 

Let me think on this a while.

[OlgaH]

Also I never heard of engagement rings in Russia.

Unfortunately during the Soviet time some traditions were forgotten, or to be more correct some traditions were put out of Soviet people's life as bourgeois vestiges. But some people could save that traditions and passed them across the generations 

[steviej]

Unfortunately during the Soviet time some traditions were forgotten, or to be more correct some traditions were put out of Soviet people's life as bourgeois vestiges. But some people could save that traditions and passed them across the generations 

Olga are you sporting a diamond on your left hand there ? 

(hope I didn't put foot in mouth  )

[KenC]

I was kinda thinking that too. 

So let's see. 

We listen to one side of a story and draw our opinions. 

A judge listens to both sides and concludes something else. 

Let me think on this a while.

Ronnie,
Now you are painting an incorrect picture IMO.  The judge issued a RO on the minimum burden of proof (Elvira's word against Maxx's) and decided to err on the side of caution.  This doesn't mean he was convinced of anything, just that it was the prudent decision for the circumstances.
KenC

[Ronnie]

Olga are you sporting a diamond on your left hand there ? 

(hope I didn't put foot in mouth  )

Only so far as you forgot that Europeans use the right hand.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,
Now you are painting an incorrect picture IMO.  The judge issued a RO on the minimum burden of proof (Elvira's word against Maxx's) and decided to err on the side of caution.  This doesn't mean he was convinced of anything, just that it was the prudent decision for the circumstances.
KenC

No KenC, I'm not painting an incorrect picture.  First, I never said the judge was convinced, I said he "decided"..not "he was convinced."  Nor is it fair to say the judge decided to "err" on the side of caution...that was our characterization but it doesn't conform to the judge's own words...at least those Maxx has allowed us to read. 

If you read his ruling the judge said the scales of the evidence must tip in her favor.  If there was no tipping (i.e. his evidence was just as convincing as hers) he would not grant her request.  The judge weighed the evidence and ruled Elvira had met her burden, if ever so slightly.  So I can't agree with our characterization of "erring on the side of caution"

[Lily]

I've seen quite a few (and some unfortunate) situations that seem to indicate that women can often be more 'in control' or 'functional' in situations dealing with overwhelming emotions.


Lily,

Is there in your opinion  any differences in 'weight' between Zags and Church cermonies?

Is nice to see you ladies chipping in.

Sorry I don't think I could make a personal opinion about those two ceremonies, as I don't know a religion... Also I never faced either of them. May be some other RW would tell.

[KenC]

Ronnie,
I do not agree with your interpretation and Maxx is under no obligation to "prove" anything to you or anyone else here.  If you don't believe what he writes, don't read it.
KenC

[Lily]

It never seemed to me that a man willing to marry was a rare beast in Russia. So I decided to look for statistical data.

In 2003 there were registered 1092,6 thousands of marriages In Russia. 
In 2004 there were registered 979,7 thousands of marriages.
Since 2005 there is stable growth in the number of marriages registered.
In 2007 there were registered 1262,6 thousands of marriages.

http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2008/0323/barom04.php

Thus, more than one million men are getting married each year!

I'd be curious to know how many marriages were concluded out of the necessity.

Too many marriages I observed were because of a pregnant girlfriend. I also heard some men say 'I marry her, if and when she gets pregnant from me'. Baby first, wedding ring second

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,
I do not agree with your interpretation and Maxx is under no obligation to "prove" anything to you or anyone else here.  If you don't believe what he writes, don't read it.
KenC

That's why I stopped reading his stuff.  I usually skip over his long stories but once in a while curiosity gets the best of me, and I read; like his email from a petite librarian guy who married the big Dominican woman who beat him every night while he was on his knees giving her oral sex.   Go to the Global Warming thread and read his account of Barack Obama's speech on volunteerism.   I have come to the conclusion that Maxx missed his calling as a writer of fiction. 

When I was accused of writing fiction about an immigrant family I was challenged and answered every call out as best I could as someone relating 2nd hand information.  Maxx writes for 4 years in the first person and when someone asks a few questions, he retreats.  That tells me he knows he's been blowing smoke in our faces about the way he was treated. 

When I say maybe Elvira wan't as bad as Maxx paints, I'm told I'm guessing without foundation.  When I say Maxx wasn't convicted of anything and there was no Prosecutor in the matter, I'm told they are just words and that to Maxx, it's the same thing. 

Excuse me for being the boy in the crowd who can't quite see the clothes on the man.