Risky Business

[steviej]

You mean like htis?:

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, ...

Wow, myrddin, that is amazing !!!

[steviej]

The point was trying to make about RW being a GCG to some degree or another we can't put it into simple terms like it's the man or it's the passport. It's far more complex than that.  The man is his passport and vice versa to a large degree.  Why do we have this RWD?  Why is it not just WD? 

I think Ronnie states the truth. The guys are a little afraid to acknowledge it because they think it takes a bit of the shine off the romance. But it does not. The passport (in the vast majority of the cases) is a significant element in wanting to meet (from both sides) in the first place. My wife wanted to meet Western men, especially American or English, with a view toward marriage. She decided she was distincly unsatisfied with the "new Russian man", and not at all disposed toward "wanting to stay in Russia." She would've been very happy to leave. Did she want to be in love with the man she married? Yes, of course. Did she want the man who marries her to love her? Yes, of course. Is our love and happy marriage diminished in any way because she wanted a Western man and I wanted a Russian woman? No. In fact, all our most cherished desires have been fulfilled. I'm proud that my wife was interested in me (say, as a pool of candidates) because I'm an American man. I'm proud of who I am, what I stand for, and what I can do. My great grandfather was stowed away as a 10 year old boy on a boat from Ireland because his mother was trying to spare him from the famine. Can you imagine arriving, seasick at 10 yrs old in NYC with no family, and trying to start to live? But he did. All of that background is part of who I am. My wife loves it admires it. She sees that in me. And she is correct to see it in me. And the same is true in reverse about all the things in the history of women in Russia that make her who she is, and contributes many things to why I think she is wonderful. Well, .... that's a long enough speech LOL ....

[Shadow]

I still have a case that is different from what Ronnie or steviej try (now in morePC words) to mention.
My partner had trouble finding a partner in Russia, and was encouraged by a co-worker to put her profile on an international site.
Being RW she did not expect to receive letters from other than idiots, and got her share of them.

While she expected letters to be mostly from the USA, all countries were welcome.
She had a good job, her own apartment and needed nothing in her life except someone to love.

[Ronnie]

Are men any less frank when dealing with these same issues? I don't think so as we do just as much of that "put yourself in the best light" as any of the women do.

FWIW,
 Ken

Different issues but same principle. For men it's overstating income and professional status.

[steviej]

My partner had trouble finding a partner in Russia, and was encouraged by a co-worker to put her profile on an international site.

That's different? Sounds the same to me.

[Shadow]

That's different? Sounds the same to me.

Not at all. She never disliked Russia or Russian men. She never 'decided' to leave her home country until she had met me.
She will keep a red passport even if she will get EU citizenship (our passports are red  ).
Similar I never looked for a wife with a Russian passport.

If women are looking specially for US citizens, it is because of the well-known habit of Americans to use their wallet as means of impressing and keeping women.

[Ronnie]

I still have a case that is different from what Ronnie or steviej try (now in morePC words) to mention.
My partner had trouble finding a partner in Russia, and was encouraged by a co-worker to put her profile on an international site.
Being RW she did not expect to receive letters from other than idiots, and got her share of them.

While she expected letters to be mostly from the USA, all countries were welcome.
She had a good job, her own apartment and needed nothing in her life except someone to love.

Shadow,  The women who had everything they need except someone to love and love them are wonderful.
My point is that the man who brings more than his love to the table is preferred by every woman.  Women will, however, in order to avoid being labeled a gold digger or gcg, even make ludicrous claims. Claims such as:

It's better to live an dingy 5-story liftless Kruschev apartment with a closet-sized kitchen than care for a 5-year-old western home with a garden and view of the mountains;

or tell you how she prefers to ride to work in a filthy marshrutka listening to the guy coughing behind her than drive her own car listening to a smooth jazz station on the radio;

or tell you she's not nearly as put off by a man pissing on a tree 3 meters from her door as she is watching a collie do the same disgusting thing in a park. 

 It's like the Cheetos commercial on TV where the dad is just sitting down in the living room and sees the bag of Cheetos ripped open and yellow-orange cheetos strewn about the area.  Just then his small son comes running by and the dad catches his arm and stopping him sees the boy has yellow-orange coloring all around his mouth.  "Do you know anything about this?" the father asks.  "No-o," the boy answers.  "Alright then....go on."   It's adorable...all of it!

It's that familiar, and often-discussed soviet trait - deny anything, no matter how obsurd you look in doing it, if admitting the truth might reflect poorly on you.

This is just one of the quirky things with these lovable women that I  find endearing - more now than perhaps i did before.   

These women are perfectly imperfect and I can only hope that my wife comes to see me the same way I now see her...I think she's getting there...I see signs!.

[steviej]

Not at all. She never disliked Russia or Russian men. She never 'decided' to leave her home country until she had met me.
She will keep a red passport even if she will get EU citizenship (our passports are red  ).
Similar I never looked for a wife with a Russian passport.

If women are looking specially for US citizens, it is because of the well-known habit of Americans to use their wallet as means of impressing and keeping women.

It's wonderful that you and your wife have some kind of purity that seems to transcend most of the rest of us here ...

[Ronnie]

If women are looking specially for US citizens, it is because of the well-known habit of Americans to use their wallet as means of impressing and keeping women.

Is that what you really think of us Shadow? 

[BC]

Shadow,  The women who had everything they need except someone to love and love them are wonderful.

Indeed they are.

My point is that the man who brings more than his love to the table is preferred by every woman.  Women will, however, in order to avoid being labeled a gold digger or gcg, even make ludicrous claims. Claims such as:

To a certain point you are correct, the substance to provide for long term security is desirable.  Above that other factors come into play.  Once the minimum has been met the 'overage' carries less weight against other factors.

It's better to live an dingy 5-story liftless Kruschev apartment with a closet-sized kitchen than care for a 5-year-old western home with a garden and view of the mountains;

We have a rather large property and it's a ton of work and costly to keep up let me tell ya..  My wife mentioned an apartment in the past but does enjoy the privacy of a single home.  A little smaller would be nice.  Maybe not even a pool quite ok.

or tell you how she prefers to ride to work in a filthy marshrutka listening to the guy coughing behind her than drive her own car listening to a smooth jazz station on the radio;

I enjoy the minibusses and cheap taxi's.  Great way to get around.  I'd dump our car here if we had the same.  She wouldn't complain as the additional disposable income would be fun to blow.  Between insurance, gas and maintenance etc, a good chunk of change.

or tell you she's not nearly as put off by a man pissing on a tree 3 meters from her door as she is watching a collie do the same disgusting thing in a park. 

It's a European thing.. no biggie.  That guy pissing on a tree 3 meters from our door is probably me..  One of the luxuries of owning your own trees.

It's like the Cheetos commercial on TV where the dad is just sitting down in the living room and sees the bag of Cheetos ripped open and yellow-orange cheetos strewn about the area.  Just then his small son comes running by and the dad catches his arm and stopping him sees the boy has yellow-orange coloring all around his mouth.  "Do you know anything about this?" the father asks.  "No-o," the boy answers.  "Alright then....go on."   It's adorable...all of it!

Good technique.. I do things like say 'well.. that big ugly bug that ate the Cheetos sure gave you a big kiss!'  It's important just to get across that nobody is foolin anyone.

It's that familiar, and often-discussed soviet trait - deny anything, no matter how obsurd you look in doing it, if admitting the truth might reflect poorly on you.

This is just one of the quirky things with these lovable women that I  find endearing - more now than perhaps i did before.

Yes, enjoy it here too.   

These women are perfectly imperfect and I can only hope that my wife comes to see me the same way I now see her...I think she's getting there...I see signs!.

Half the battle is accepting your partner as they are and not build expectations about how you wish them to be.  One of the biggest mistakes a couple can make is to think a wedding will change anything, or that 'she will brighten up when she sees my house or buy her that nice red car'.  Just doesn't work that way.  Sounds like you've grasped this concept.

[Shadow]

Is that what you really think of us Shadow? 

No Ronnie, this is what my wife and many Russian men and women think.
Russians are not nearly as impressed by material things as you might expect. They can give away their home if they like you.

[possum]

or tell you how she prefers to ride to work in a filthy marshrutka listening to the guy coughing behind her than drive her own car listening to a smooth jazz station on the radio;

I hate, hate, hate, hate those stupid filthy Pazik marshrutkas.. I lmao whenever I see one going by with people bobbing their heads inside because of the suspension that's stiff as a piece of wood.. I ride them sometimes because I have to, but if I had a choice I'd never ride in one again, ever.. They make me sick.. End of rant..

[groovlstk]

I hate, hate, hate, hate those stupid filthy Pazik marshrutkas.. I lmao whenever I see one going by with people bobbing their heads inside because of the suspension that's stiff as a piece of wood.. I ride them sometimes because I have to, but if I had a choice I'd never ride in one again, ever.. They make me sick.. End of rant..

Nothing's worse than a hot summer afternoon when all the babushkas refuse to open the marshrutka windows (and hiss if you open yours!)...

[possum]

Nothing's worse than a hot summer afternoon when all the babushkas refuse to open the marshrutka windows (and hiss if you open yours!)...

Strangely enough, I've never had that problem.. well, maybe once or twice in my whole life..

[BC]

Strangely enough, I've never had that problem.. well, maybe once or twice in my whole life..

Once this last trip.  A babushka closed the window and a little boy opened it again.. she hissed and sesame closed.. think it was his babushka.

As to smells, the crowded busses to/from the gate to the plane in Rome was much worse. 

Women without perfume smell interesting, too much perfume quite nauseating.  If you find a woman that naturally smells good without perfume you have a keeper.

One of my wildest experiences with smells was at a convention hotel, think it was San Diego.. was up on the 10th floor or so riding an empty elevator down to the lobby.. I had eaten a bunch of Mexican food and well.. just could not hold it.. quite 'potent'. Thinking about it on the way down to the lobby I started frantically pushing the buttons but it was too late.  The doors opened and I faced about 15 or 20 convention participants on their way back up to their rooms.  Must have been a riot in there on the way up.

[Blues Fairy]

Women will, however, in order to avoid being labeled a gold digger or gcg, even make ludicrous claims. Claims such as:

I think it goes deeper than that.  Remember Jazzy and her wrath at every instance when Russian way of life was compared unfavorably with Western way of life, and every proof of Russia's inferiority was taken as a personal attack?  That's the true Soviet trait indeed, the covering up of one's shame of one's own country with proud patriotic fig leaves. 

[KenC]

I think it goes deeper than that.  Remember Jazzy and her wrath at every instance when Russian way of life was compared unfavorably with Western way of life, and every proof of Russia's inferiority was taken as a personal attack?  That's the true Soviet trait indeed, the covering up of one's shame of one's own country with proud patriotic fig leaves. 

Blues Fairy,
Your comment is right on the money!  It took my wife, Lena, years to develop the attitude contrary to what you describe here.  In the beginning, she would take any slight against Russia as a personal attack.  There are still some remnants of that today but not too much.  What was interesting was that Lena would energetically defend Russia while here in America and then energetically defend America while visiting Russia! :noidea:
KenC

[Shadow]

I do not think that Russians, Ukrainians, Americans, Dutch or any other people should be ashamed of their country.
Everywhere there is beauty and bad to be found. No country is perfect, because there are no perfect people.

[Blues Fairy]

I do not think that Russians, Ukrainians, Americans, Dutch or any other people should be ashamed of their country.
Everywhere there is beauty and bad to be found. No country is perfect, because there are no perfect people.

Exactly, there's good and bad in every country, so it's natural to be proud of the good and ashamed of the bad.   I am truly proud of the good in Russia and honestly ashamed of certain things that make it a less-than-perfect country.  What makes me even more ashamed is when my fellow countrymen start arguing that those shameful things are actually awesome because nothing in Russia can be shameful by definition.  It's the rest of the world that's wrong - Russia is ALWAYS right.  That's the worst kind of arrogance.

[Maxx2]

Letters from the Front:

Recent letters I got from 4 men in trouble.


Man #1 married to a RW
Although I like to think I was well prepared for court, as well as all I have been through leading up to my divorce, and knowing that my now ex-wife would be lying to state her case, I still wasn't prepared to really hear everything. Her mother is in town, supposedly for the summer, and she got up and lied quite a bit herself. The lies that cut the deepest were the ones in which I was accused of abusing my step-daughter. Of course being they were lies, neither could offer any proof of abuse other than their "word." The judge didn't buy into any of their lies, nor any of the abuse claims.
 
I was able to present hard evidence that refuted some of their lies. Both of them had claimed that I restricted my wife's contact with her parents by cutting off the phone and internet when I was at work. I could do this because I worked for the phone company! This lie didn't make much sense to me, because I was able to produce phone bills that showed that they spoke hundreds and hundreds of minutes each and every month, all at my expense. Apparently, in the state of Maryland there are no penalties for proven perjury.
 
In the end, the judge granted the divorce to me, although it was ruled as voluntary separation. I felt pretty good at this point since the judge dismissed every claim of abuse, false accusation, and lie told by my wife. The judge even accepted the internet evidence I had submitted which showed my wife visiting dating sites. She considered it credible, despite the objections of my wife's lawyer. I was even able to describe the immigration fraud ploy employed by my wife and how it relates to marriage and a green card. Unfortunately, I may have won the battle, but I feel as though I lost the war. I was ordered to pay my ex-wife $1100 per month for one year. I was also ordered to pay attorney's fees to her lawyer in the amount of $7500. I think I will drop by his office once a month and drop off $50 in pennies until he is paid off!
 
How can I win the divorce case, yet still be ordered to pay $20,700???
 
All in all, my 15 month marriage will cost me $57,000, with about $31,000 of that directly benefitting my now ex-wife. My lawyer feels I have a good chance at winning an appeal of the financial judgement if I choose to, but at this point, I don't think it is worth it. An appeal will easily cost me 5-10K, which I don't have, and there are no guarantees. Is it worth spending 10K for the appeal judge to maybe decrease the reward by 5K? It may make me feel better in getting the moral victory, but I can't afford to go any further. The fight is about out of me, and I need to move on.

Man #2 married to a RW
My former wife and her daughter arrived on 3 November 2007. We married on 8 November 2007. A little after Thanksgiving came the first sign that something was amiss. One of my Russian-speaking friends told me about my Russian wife's intent to leave me after obtaining her green card and said something about a German man with whom she had been involved. Another Russian-speaking friends did not say the same things but did over hear my wife end a conversation with "Ich liebbe dich". I began to pay more attention to things. After the New Year, I went online to get ask some questions of my friends from Russia. I was shocked to learn that one of my friends had been communicating with a German man that claimed to be my wife's former lover. She gave him my Yahoo ID and I began communicating with him.

He told me about their entire relationship, which essentially ended the day she came to America. He provided passport scans showing entry/exit stamps to Kaliningrad, photos, scans of his passport bio page and his German ID card, and a scan of a shengen visa he had arranged with the dates October 2007 through April 2008. He also provided Yahoo chats that had taken place between the two since her arrival in America. It was emotionally devastating to learn so much so quickly, but I was able to keep my emotions out of the decision-making process enough to take effective action.

There was an angry confrontation on the night of 14 January 2008. She called the police but I was not arrested. I left for the night and the next day retained a divorce attorney. She left my home that day and went to a shelter. The divorce was filed on 16 January 2008, and on the advice of an immigration attorney I had just met on 13 January 2008, sent a letter to USCIS explaining the situation.

On 25 January 2008 I was served an injunction in which she accused me of 1) throwing a notebook at her and pushing her daughter on the night of 14 January; 2) repeated marital rape since the end of November 2007; 3) child molestation since the end of November 2007; and 4) stalking since leaving my home. I hired a criminal attorney. I started living full time with my brother in my home town 80 miles to the west to avoid any chance contact with her. At the end of March, a detective called and left a message. I returned the call but did not talk to him until the end of April. He closed the investigation. Her daughter actually told the truth and said that I had not molested her. The detective did not find my former wife believable at all.

The divorce was finalized on 19 March. We were together for only a little over 2 months.

Man #3 married to an Asian woman
My case has been delayed until 9/18/08, it's almost a year since I filed divorce/annulment, USCIS Columbus, OH office denied her I-485, my immigration attorney told me that she is out of status and illegal.  I found that an immigration attorney is filing I-360 application for her, AACS - Asian American Community Service is help her the case too.  I was order by the Magistrate to pay $1080/month, don't even have a end day since 5/20.  Our court system really sucks, what happened is I don't pay?  my attorney even suguested that I get a loan, legal fees are well above $11,000. 
 
Man #4 married to a RW
I am still paying off $40,000.00 in legal fees from my divorce. Unfortunatly you have to borrow to keep the fight going or you will lose by default.
Bruce

[Admin]

Exactly, there's good and bad in every country, so it's natural to be proud of the good and ashamed of the bad.   I am truly proud of the good in Russia and honestly ashamed of certain things that make it a less-than-perfect country.  What makes me even more ashamed is when my fellow countrymen start arguing that those shameful things are actually awesome because nothing in Russia can be shameful by definition.  It's the rest of the world that's wrong - Russia is ALWAYS right.  That's the worst kind of arrogance.

To amplify the point slightly, it (the emboldened text) is also the antithesis of true patriotism - although those who engage in such mindless blather would argue otherwise.

The mark of a true patriot is one who openly and intelligently assesses the good and the bad - and works to improve both.

Here's hoping we see a resurgence of true patriotism in BOTH these countries . . . .

- Dan

[possum]

Personally, I'm very much ashamed of our public transportation..

[KenC]

Blues Fairy,
I think Americans have just the opposite problem.  We tend to over criticize and accept all criticism of America too much.  We have been numbed by the endless criticisms pounded into our brains via American media.  
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

Blues Fairy,
I think Americans have just the opposite problem.  We tend to over criticize and accept all criticism of America too much.  We have been numbed by the endless criticisms pounded into our brains via American media.

That's because your media is overwhelmingly liberal.  Both our nations are being brainwashed, each in its own way.

[Jumper]

steviej

The guys are a little afraid to acknowledge it because they think it takes a bit of the shine off the romance

sorry steve, you have to be kidding me.
having lived around the world.. i took the matrix pill  long long ago.. ,,
and certainly dint need to take it again in relationships with RW.
(yes economics is the key factor, i might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night)

I certainly understand the various motivations of a RW marrying abroad as well as most anyone else?
and certainly havnt clogged around this planet all my life ,and not recognized the natural human trait of putting oneself in a more positive light.

I gladly acknowledge anything that resembles reality.
it wouldnt ruffle my feathers a bit if my wife married me strickly for my wealth..
(she sure made a huge mistake if that was her motivation though ..)
certainly economics is part of why she married me..
doesnt hurt my feelings, or take any kind of shine off the relationship in anyway to me?
you dont know me,, if a GC and blue passport was her true motivation, I would certainly state that it was.. no problem at all.
 the truth is if she had met a good russian man that met her expectations of a husband ,she would have married him,and likely one would have come into her life.... he simply hadnt yet.

Ronnie your generalizatiions of riding a mashruka , or a guy pissing in the flats stairwell..

mean exactly what in comparison to leaving her friends and family , culture and language behind?

sorry, but may RW would prefer those minor inconviences , to having jazz play on her
very own car's radio..
 

its not always some simple defense of thier homeland
(yes there is some of that involved)
it can be that the culture here is just different?
 
driving everywhere is how many of lives are "in general" are laid out.
it doesnt mean its enjoyed by everyone,and certainly not those from a totally different culture.

___________________________

What was being discussed in this "risky business" thread, was the GCG scenerio,,
which does indeed happen.it is a a risk, and an increased risk in regards to this venture verses marrying a US citizen .

this is an abuse of the immigration system,, and an added risk ..
My opinion was that very few percentage of RW , in this particular endeavor , are marrying with the primary motivation of a GC (with no regard to the man or mule to get it)

ronnie was stating  that with the RW involved , getting a GC was  100%  ,
 and unfair to speculate what percent of the RW's true  motivation was for a blue passport, vs her interest in the man she married.

 Both of you can cast the bit around that the RW are not telling thier husbands
 the real "truth" , or that us *husbands* are do gullable to not understand our wives true motivations..or that there is *some* ecomomic or  GC motivation within each marriage?

but its more humourous than anything?

Most of us "husbands" dont have our eyes shut to some "unsavoury truth"
most are quite well aware of reality.

Most of our wives are quite normal  RW , and are quite direct.
 they wouldnt bat at eye at telling  that ecomomics where a factor in marriage to a foreign man..
Taking financal security into account is viewed as smart and sensible,
 certainly would not be casting themselves in a "bad light".
they would just be stating the obvious.
(i trust you guys are a bit more seasoned than whats posted.. or my wife would eat you for lunch in such a discussion)

In the context of RW having the primary motivation ,to  immigrate and get a GC..
and using marriage as the vehicle to do so..

If you both feel that RW are 100% this way,
you are  both way way off the mark

and that context is what ronnies reply was to.. !!!


i'm not trying to put RW on some pedistal.
i'm not so silly as to not recognize that finaces are  often a motivating factor in marriages,
certainly ones involving this process.

but you are clouding what a GCG is,
 with what is quite honestly normal motivations of most any woman in marriage.


To twist things around and  act like every single RW  that marries a foriegn man ,
is a GCG at least to *some* extent..
because *we* cant know what percent  of motivation was about getting her own blue passport is silly.
and that is what was basically being put out there.


MOST of the men here, are not so foolish as to not truly *understand* thier wives.
to imply differently is equally silly.


Ronnie-
I have a question for you..

If i someday divorced..
and Tanya did not choose to return to Ukraine.

She would then qualify as a GCG in your above postings

would this scenerio, have  much to do with the  added risk in this  "risky business" thread?



i find the whole concept silly..
as with  5 years here (or by that time far longer?)
 maybe she would have  just adjusted her life to the point that this area would be "home" by then?

It may surprise  people (not sure why)
but my wife and i know each other pretty well ,and have for 7 years. there is no need to "save face"?
we can, and do ,actually have open and honest discussions.. (its not that unusual folks)

yes i know without any reservation what she would have done early on.
today she likely still would return to ukraine, but is at a point in her life now ,
with established friends and family here too, that this is home and would be torn
in choosing what to do..?
add a few more years, even more established and settled in this area..
maybe her familty in ukraine passed on (lifes realities)
i would guess she would certainly then stay
This seems a natural progression to me..

no added risk,as far as this thread..
 and  ultimately what pasport she carried wasnt initially a motivating factor.


That is far more the reality of the RW that actually married a foreign man and came her ,
 at least the ones i have been exposed to .

Its not hard to imagine that most are pretty decent people.
Thier motivations are the same as most peoples in the world, and thier ethics no better,
 or worse, than anyone elses.


the true GCG -immigration as the primary and overiding motivation-
 thru marriage ,seem an  incredibly small percent in the big pictiure.

it is an added risk..
and should be considered..
when first dating and evaluating someone for a long term relationship..


but to be overly guarded about it,
is a higher risk  to acheiving the goal of marriage to a normal RW..
IMHO.