Risky Business

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,
I think the comment of yours that if something happen to your relationship, that the only rational and sane thing for her to do is to remain in the US, may apply to your wife but not really applicable in more general terms.  I might have agreed with you 10 years ago, but not today.  

Your inserting the word "only" changes my comment completely.


 

[BC]

Your inserting the word "only" changes my comment completely.

You are correct Ronnie.

Pardon.

First, AJ, if Tanya stayed in the US, she would only be doing the rational and sane thing for her long-term future.

You do speaketh though in twisted tongue 

[ambach123]

Maxx can I ask you some questions?

Why did you or anyone else would want to marry without a prenup and why did you?

How difficult is it to have her sign a prenup? I don't understand.

And someone who says prenups don't stand up, does not have a clue about prenups. They are written in stone in many states.

FWIW, you can preplan a step by step sequence of events if she feels threatened in any way, already pre planned. She must follow those steps, she does not have choice, e.g, she moves out of the house, goes to a shelter or hotel, the parties file for divorce, have minimal contacts from that point on.

Why did you choose someone with a child, knowing that a child increases the risk considerably? Or marrying even a woman who has been divorced before.

All the exmaples of successful marriages on this board you gave, took precautions about  these  seemingly simple matters. None of their wives were married before, none have any previous children, and at least some of them have a prenup. I don't think Steve or AJ, or Ken C succeeded because they were " lucky "; no they had a well thought out plan.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, the old cliche.

Do you have any examples of crash and burn when the AM took the above precautions?

I think it is unfair to scare people when you or others fail to use even some basic precautions. Why on earth you and others proceeded in this fashion is beyond me to comprehend.

[groovlstk]

Why did you choose someone with a child, knowing that a child increases the risk considerably? Or marrying even a woman who has been divorced before.

There are a number of men on this board who are happily married to women with a child from an earlier marriage as well as those who took a "big risk" and married divorced women (myself included).

You never let facts get in the way of your logic, so I'm pointing this out for the benefit of other newbs who are planning a first trip.

FWIW, I don't think you should worry about getting a prenup, for what you seek I believe a cage in your basement will suffice along with a pair of diamond-encrusted handcuffs and a Burberry's poodle leash for when you're out and about.

[ambach123]

GroovStk STOP worrying about me; worry about yourself.

Max did not include you in his succesful list, you must be successful in your own mind, so keep it there.

Get off your obsession about what I want, you got nothing else to do?

I don't know or care who you are or what you think, I would appreciate very much if you so kindly give me the same courtesy.

Thank you.

[groovlstk]

GroovStk STOP worrying about me; worry about yourself.

Max did not include you in his succesful list, you must be successful in your own mind, so keep it there.

Get off your obsession about what I want, you got nothing else to do?

I don't know or care who you are or what you think, I would appreciate very much if you so kindly give me the same courtesy.

Thank you.

Ambach, I don't post for your benefit, I long ago concluded you are an MOB loser with no chance of success. I will not, however, allow your "facts" to go unchallenged when newbs might mistake you for someone who knows something about this venture. If it bothers you, put me on ignore and no wind will disturb your little house of cards.

[ScottinCrimea]

I have said that they, the women, will make absurd denials about obvious facts, such as the fact that her husband is western played any role in their accepting his proposal of marriage.  It played a role..small in some cases...greater in others...but it played some role and men who absolutely deny that are doing themselves and their wives a disservice, IMHO, and fooling no one.

Ronnie, you were doing fine until this popped up.  I think I explained the situation with my wife pretty clearly. If anything, the fact that I am Western was a negative, not a positive for her.  I've dug deep to try to find some validation for your statements in my case, but I just can't find it.  Maybe you can point it out for me.  I certainly don't think I am doing myself or my wife a disservice by recognizing that it was something other than the blue passport that brought us together and that now keeps us together, rather, I think it is a testament to our feelings for each other.  If this is the case with myself and my wife, I have to believe that there are others with similar situations.  You can call us the exception if you like or you can persist in calling me delusional, but the facts remain.  I'm certainly not out to fool myself or anyone else.  I have no problem with the idea that my western status might have brought us together, but it just didn't happen.

[ambach123]

Groovstk; your posts are always filled with personal attacks; whatever I plan is my problem not yours.

The general members do not benefit from your personal attacks. It only serves your own inferiority complex which you feed on putting down others.

You need help, professional help.

Whether I have a house of cards or I am a " loser " ; what is to you and how is the general forum benefited by your behaviour?

If you are married to a divorced woman, all you have to say is that you are so married without feeding your inferiority complex by making comments about me.

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach, Maxx2 put an "etc." after his list of successful marriages which suggests that he had others in mind also.  You continue to try to define these successes in your terms and try to conclude that the reason they are successful is because they followed the plan that you are intent on following.  I don't think anyone here has agreed that your plan is a good one and most have written that they see it as more of a plan for failure than success.

As for myself, I think most here would consider my marriage a successful one.  We have known each other for six years, been together for 4 years and married for over two years now.  She was married previously, she had a child, and we didn't do a pre-nup, so it seems that everything that you consider necessary for a successful, risk free marriage was absent in my case.  To make it worse, I moved there instead of bringing her to the US for a "better life" which meant that she could have cut and run at anytime with no negative consequences, financial or otherwise, other than the loss of my companionship.

You could only be so lucky to find such a woman and have such a relationship, but your plan guarantees that it won't ever happen.  You're seeking a business relationship and what you will end up with is a business partner, nothing more.  If that's your definition of happiness and hers as well, all the more power to you, but I tend to think that most women will want something more, either now or in the future.

[KenC]

Maxx can I ask you some questions?

I am not Maxx, but would like to answer.

Why did you or anyone else would want to marry without a prenup and why did you?

My wife offered to sign a prenupt, but I declined her offer.  My situation didn't warrent a prenupt but others may be different.

How difficult is it to have her sign a prenup? I don't understand.

This all depends upon how it is presented and on the strength of the relationship.

And someone who says prenups don't stand up, does not have a clue about prenups. They are written in stone in many states.

That is not my experience, but my experience was a while ago, so things may have changed.  Regardless, a prenupt is not bullet proof.

FWIW, you can preplan a step by step sequence of events if she feels threatened in any way, already pre planned. She must follow those steps, she does not have choice, e.g, she moves out of the house, goes to a shelter or hotel, the parties file for divorce, have minimal contacts from that point on.

This is all supposition on your part as you have no practical experience.

Why did you choose someone with a child, knowing that a child increases the risk considerably? Or marrying even a woman who has been divorced before.

 You read too many statistics.  This is not a math equation.  It is all about the quality of the woman you choose and the quality of the relationship!  BTW, there are certain advantages to women married before as they have experience in living within a relationship and having a child helps greatly in the woman acclimating to her new country.

All the exmaples of successful marriages on this board you gave, took precautions about  these  seemingly simple matters. None of their wives were married before, none have any previous children, and at least some of them have a prenup. I don't think Steve or AJ, or Ken C succeeded because they were " lucky "; no they had a well thought out plan.

I disagree.  Read my T/R!  I was operating by the seat of my pants, totally unplanned.  My relationship with Lena was very spontaneous.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, the old cliche.

 You cannot plan on love, ever!  Marriage is not the mechanical proposition you make it out to be.  Sometimes it breaks all the rules and still works.  It certainly cannot be mapped out as you suggest.

Do you have any examples of crash and burn when the AM took the above precautions?

Many.  Maxx did most things correctly but his major flaw was in his own inexperience with women.

I think it is unfair to scare people when you or others fail to use even some basic precautions. Why on earth you and others proceeded in this fashion is beyond me to comprehend.

That is because you continue to remove all emotion from your "science experiment."  Successful marriages are all about love, respect and dedication the couple has for one another.  Plug that into your formula!!!!!!!
KenC

[Shadow]

Groovstk; your posts are always filled with personal attacks; whatever I plan is my problem not yours.

The general members do not benefit from your personal attacks. It only serves your own inferiority complex which you feed on putting down others.

You need help, professional help.

Whether I have a house of cards or I am a " loser " ; what is to you and how is the general forum benefited by your behaviour?

If you are married to a divorced woman, all you have to say is that you are so married without feeding your inferiority complex by making comments about me.

Ambach you seem to overlook your own posts that lead to strong reactions.

As your questions were directed at Maxx2 I decided to wait his answer. However I would like to take this opportunity to ask you ifyou holdup to your own standards : not divorced, no kids, willing to sign an agreement that in case of divorce will return your finances to a pre-marriage state (in the hypothetical case you find a woman with more resources than you have).

[groovlstk]

Whether I have a house of cards or I am a " loser " ; what is to you and how is the general forum benefited by your behaviour?

Ambach, you should be grateful to me for enhancing the already-present entertainment value in your posts.

[BC]

GroovStk STOP worrying about me; worry about yourself.

Max did not include you in his succesful list, you must be successful in your own mind, so keep it there.

Get off your obsession about what I want, you got nothing else to do?

I don't know or care who you are or what you think, I would like the same courtesy from you.

Thank you.

ambach,

You're really starting to sound like a broken record.  Wouldn't be so bad if you were speaking from experience, but you are neither married to a RW, don't have a prenupt yet and haven't even seen a lawyer about it.  

One of the first questions I ask insurance salesmen at the door is 'Show me your policy'.  They walk away..

We're one of the couples Maxx mentioned.  Both previously divorced, both brought kids into the marriage, I own my business and house and car outright, and you guessed it have no prenupt..

It's not like we somehow are not able to use google..  Interesting would be the results of your appointment.. but till then you're just spouting speculation.  We know you are convinced prenups are the way to go.. Heck put it in your signature line.. but then leave it at that.

[Maxx2]

As your questions were directed at Maxx2 I decided to wait his answer.

I can't answer in detail because I got to get going.

I did mention prenups do work BUT they do not protect against costly legal costs regarding false charges and against lawsuits. I have seen this over and over again with men who think they are safe if they get a prenup and then forget about all the other hell that comes after the word "divorce" is mentioned. 

Maxx

[Jumper]

Ronnie-
nice post,
perhaps earlier i was just not understanding your point ..
thanks for the clarification.

 i would say as a general rule that the men do understand that thier western status played some role..likely it was more thier finacial security or abilty to provide for a family well though..  not merely location ,,as most RW would probably prefer western eiurope anymore to the USA.

and there are exceptions like scotts, where very likely it was simply the man, and yes the mans abilty to far well iun any country..
*shrugs*

obviously Maxxs examples are completely based on imiigration as a key ingredient..
and perhaps its far more common than i think.

They the USCIS he talked to told him that they get 2 men a day pulling their AOS. This is in little o'l Bloomington, Minnesota.

Maxx- are those predominantly for RW though?
no latina /phillipines etc etc?

i'm not trying to debate you at all, and in fact agree with your *birds of a feather*
 theory (as i know MANY RW, and few, if any, got there GC thru marriage ,most overstayed a work visa )

I dont doubt what youve seen at all..(or what your ex ex wife has seen)

i am trying to draw out real statistics though (always hard to do)

my guess is, if i was an immigration officer, yes of course i see abuse daily,, its my job.

if i see 100 cases day, if 2 each day are abusive of the immigration system,  2 a day, each day every day, would seem routine and significant , even though percentage wise it isnt so much so ?
if 50 a day are immgration abuse cases , at 50% thats a much different scenerio..
 (and might be accurate,,who knows)

but thats the real data, a new guy needs to attempt to quantify  the risks ?

I have no idea of these numbers..
after years on these boards ., i've never seen them..
it doesnt seem like they would be that hard to come by.. at least a general idea

I do think the marriage failure rate is dismal.
i think that once the marrige is failing ,the new immigrant will often abuse the system to better thier position ,both in the divorce ,and in thier immigration status,.
since wether they want to leave or stay..it is easy to accept the attornies advice to do so,as it leaves more doors open for them..so why not?



ambach-
 Many men have the troubles that maxx encountered.
There are plenty of guys that had good intentions, and were simply duped by a good actress..

I cant deny that i could have met the same fate as maxx!!!!!!

its certainly within the realm of possibilty that I could have been played well by a
 con artist..or actress.

in hopes of shedding some light -

YES! absolutely I took a big risk in marrying a RW.
I married her in Ukraine, so her status , SSN and GC ,
were granted upon arrival in the USA(maybe it took a week )
 She could have left me the first month  she arrived and filed DV charges and divorce papers.I could have been hosed!!
(just like maxx, and i probably wouldnt have reacted as well ,or as quickly ,or as level headed - (i am very laid back, but when pushed to extreems, can be a hot head and immature- and would have been in more trouble than him very likely)

or she could simply have left, filed with the BCIS that she entered the marriage with good intent, but was seperated ,and the reality is she would likely have gotten her ten year GC ,faster than staying married and going thru the process as we did.

it is a risk.
I did not play it safe.

I married her there!!
(so her family could attend, she is incredibly traditional in family matters and marriage,and it was very important to them, i wanted her day to be as all new brides envision. That would not be some ceremony in the USA with no friends or familty,,or any of the very nice cultural touches that a true traditional ukranian wedding has.)

i did not have a prenup.
(her assets are almost similar to mine, it seemed unnessary and founding the marriage on trust was far more important to me,
what i did  have, was hers for the asking!
and if things had been sincere ,but simply not worked out between us ,
 i would have been happy to have helped someone i cared for deeply..
and simply rebuilt with no regrets, thats part of truly loving someone?
naive?perhaps,,but that is how i feel,
and frankly , i would not marry anyone i did not care for at that level. i woul djust date them)

In my case it was an acceptable level of risk.
 Mostly because i had very little to lose in reality..(a home and car,some savings )
and generally i have  very little attachment for material things,
 a house is a house , a car a car, I have always been able to bounce back from setbacks,,and simply dont care enough about material things to let losing them get me down much.they are all replacible.

what limited my risk most?
Time.(and i do not believe there is any substitute)

i dated my wife two years before marriage,,and was working on and off in europe during those years,,frequent trips/visits were relatively easy.
I could know her well and how our relation *was* ,a bit long term,,
not how i hoped it *might* be..
I could see her interaction with people, with family, with wait staff, with strangers, with jerks, with beggers /gypsies, with children. etc over time.and judge her character well.
we had time to build a real trust and strong relationship together.

i did not do this as some plan ,to avoid risk.(although it perhaps worked that way)

 I simple was not in in hurry to get married,nor had any timeline.
i met an interesting person, and wanted to know them better, over time we fell for each other (i was NOT husband material in her mind initially)
 and continued to date and build a relationship to the point that mariagewas the next logical progression.
(and yes we were both looking for marriage, just not on some  set timeline)

in summary-
 i left myself wide open to added risk and the possibilty of abuse!!
i was open, honest, confident and trusting, generous  and generally put her feelings foremost. (like the idea to marry *there*, was mine, not hers,,
but she really apprecaited the thought behind this and had a perfect wedding day she had always dreamed of)

i also left myself open to the possibilty of a woman (RW) truly loving me.

since i am a racer at heart--
the old adage
-if you do not risk, you will not drink champaine-

comes to mind.

I see guys here with rekationship troubles often..
i dont know how to mitigate them.
as maxx said,maybe i was just lucky.

i did not need to navigate particularly murky waters?
While having her own unique personaly traits,both good and bad -
 My wife was always forthright.She was always on time.She already had a decent grasp of english and we did not use a translator to communicate.
She was always consistant.good or bad, her actions or reactions were predictable..
nothing raised red flags,,the traits i was not found of ,, she made no bones about.
that was her,,like it or leave it.I was the same.
we had the typical disagreements..but they were handled the same as anyone does.
 There were no unusual requests ,and she was always polite and quite appreciative of anything i bought her,, wether that simply be a meal, or some gift. she bought me thoughtful things as well.it was easy to tell on was on her mind, she called often, was glad to hear from me..
Was home when  i called ,or would always answer her cell or call me back quickly.built trust thru never giving any reason to doubt. nothing odd or out of place.. she wasnt jealouse or overly cncerned with what i was doing either.. just had a natural trust in me...
(I  see in some cases here, the insecurity and long distance  gets crazy for people?)
She had no agenda and never showed signs of any,,nor did she try and hide any bad traits..in fact more than open about them..and direct.
My russian was/is poor but i could get around in her city on my own -
order food, get a taxi,, buy things a needed at the market.. politely get
my fundemental points understood.and understand some as well

i cant predict how my outcome would have been if i met someone with  alterior motives.
maybe i would hasve spotted it, maybe not.

my guess is thru 2 years of dating and building a relationship it should reveal it?


hope this helps..

[BC]

AJ, pass me the tissues.. 

Like motive being an important factor in crime, maybe it's intent that plays a major role in success or failure with a RW.

Many, if not most of the longer term marriages here were formed without intentions of marriage.  A business trip, vacation, inet chat, whatever... more like random events than planned goals.

The words that come to mind are - 'Looking for trouble'..  I and a few others weren't.

[BC]

Quote from Maxx

They the USCIS he talked to told him that they get 2 men a day pulling their AOS. This is in little o'l Bloomington, Minnesota.

Maxx- are those predominantly for RW though?
no latina /phillipines etc etc?

i'm not trying to debate you at all, and in fact agree with your *birds of a feather*
 theory (as i know MANY RW, and few, if any, got there GC thru marriage ,most overstayed a work visa )

I dont doubt what youve seen at all..(or what your ex ex wife has seen)

i am trying to draw out real statistics though (always hard to do)

my guess is, if i was an immigration officer, yes of course i see abuse daily,, its my job.

if i see 100 cases day, if 2 each day are abusive of the immigration system,  2 a day, each day every day, would seem routine and significant , even though percentage wise it isnt so much so ?
if 50 a day are immgration abuse cases , at 50% thats a much different scenerio..
 (and might be accurate,,who knows)

but thats the real data, a new guy needs to attempt to quantify  the risks ?

AJ,

You do give good cause to ponder.. I mentioned in this or another thread that times change..

As I see it, the men Maxx is corresponding with could be from either of two camps:

Men with relationships with women that were desperate to form relationships with men from the west due to the economic crisis in the late 90's into early 2000's.

or

Those that for whatever reasons remain 'on the market' in the past couple of years despite improved economic conditions.

If so, that says a lot or?

[Blues Fairy]

That is because you continue to remove all emotion from your "science experiment."  Successful marriages are all about love, respect and dedication the couple has for one another.  Plug that into your formula!!!!!!!

It's useless; he probably doesn't even understand these concepts.

[ScottinCrimea]

I believe, as AJ pointed out, is that one of the major mitigating factors in the risks of this whole process is time.  He took 2 years getting to know his wife, KenC took a similar time, and I took even more.  Of course there are some who have found success without taking the time that we did but in doing so they took a greater risk.  What would be interesting to know is, in those stories presented by Max, how long these men knew their wives before pulling the trigger (maybe that isn't the best way to put it.  ).  Is it possible to establish a correlation between time spent together before marriage and percentage of marriages that ultimately succeed or fail?  I suspect that most, if not all, of the men Max has mentioned had a very short courtship before marriage.  Sure, anyone can be fooled by a great actress, but no actress can maintain the act indefinitely.  My past experience showed me that it took a minimum of 3 months to really know a woman, and that meant 3 months together, not webcamming, chatting on the phone, etc.

ambach's approach has at least four inherent qualities that doom it to failure:

The first is that he is trying to work out an equation where a+b+c= a happy marriage with no risks (meaning financial risks and meaning risks to him only).  He doesn't seem to grasp the idea that there are far too many variables that cannot be factored in.

The second is that he has established a timeline that he thinks will work assuming that all goes well with his plan.  He has stated that after the initial round of interviews he will schedule a second trip to spend time with the "lucky" candidate and begin the k-1 process with the idea that his goal can be accomplished within a year. So much for that most important mitigating factor - time.

The third fallacy in his approach is that he is luring the candidates with his money and hopes of a "better" life, will arrange everything around the issue of finances, and yet is planning on finding someone for whom money is not an issue.  LIke trolling with bass bait and wondering how that darned bass ended up on the end of your hook.

The fourth problem, and probably the greatest of all, is that he is pursuing this with faulty information, inadequate information, and the inability to recognize this despite the advice and recommendations of those who actually know what this is all about.  Rather than change his thinking, he merely rewords his questions hoping to get the answer he wants.

I don't recall that he even once mentioned love as an issue.  He may have but it has never been more than a passing comment.  If he could recognize that it is true love that ultimately binds a couple together without risk, not statistical information on prior marriages, kids etc., and certainly not a pre-nup or the threat of economic hardship if she wants out.  Love is not something that you plan for, make a contract for or develop according to some formula.

ambach, you want minimum risk?  Find a woman you can love and who can love you, not for what you have or can offer her but for who you are, and then take the time to truly get to know each other and cement that love.

You're asking all of the wrong questions.

[KenC]

What would be interesting to know is, in those stories presented by Max, how long these men knew their wives before pulling the trigger (maybe that isn't the best way to put it.  ).  Is it possible to establish a correlation between time spent together before marriage and percentage of marriages that ultimately succeed or fail?

Scott,
All to be answered with the MOB survey!
KenC

[groovlstk]

Whenever the "time spent together" chestnut comes up there's always someone who points to the low divorce rates in arranged marriages between Indians or Muslims followed by guys who claim they were married 10 years but ultimately divorced a stranger.

Although I think both claims are irrelevant to such discussions here, I think it would be valuable to explore the benefits of getting to know the person you plan to spend the rest of your life with. This might seem a no-brainer to most, but so many guys with a trip or two under their belts read Maxx's stories and seem to think the biggest benefit to knowing a girl well before proposing is to be sure she is not a scammer or GCG

The internal checklists during initial dating are valuable (does she insist on eating at expensive restaurants? Does she introduce me to her family and friends? Does she show affection?, etc.) but IMHO are given way too much credence. Passing these little "tests" should lead to further dates and mutual exploration, yet too many guys think it's a good enough foundation to go directly to a marriage proposal. I'm sure it's a big relief to feel confident that your new GF isn't after your wallet or a green card, but are your standards of what you want in marriage so low that this is enough reason to propose?

On the flip side, I'd also guess that knowing each other well is not a ticket to long-term success - rather it's just enough to allow you to get your foot in the door, at best a green light and good odds for reaching the two or three-year mark. This is not a knock against taking one's time, just the reality that even doing things right is no guarantee for success.

I'd love to hear opinions from the Kens and BCs and Scotts who have 5+ years of marriage, on this topic.

 

[Jumper]

 I give ambach credit for researching the process and looking into the risks.Reading here , he is getting various thoughts of those who have been thru this.
wether he takes the advise or not is up to him ,but he is reading it ,and exposing himself to it.

As far as risk management, i'd like to point out i was horrible at it..
LOL

I was a bit naive in how bad a situation could get (like maxx's)
and felt the worse case scenerio is we simple broke up and divorced.

no fun, but not something that doesnt happen to a huge percentage of the population in either country.
i was certainly a bit cavalier in my thinking on this.
and way too over confident !!

  I knew of the DV scenerio, and we simply joked about it!!
me telling her if that was a possibilty , that a boating accident was far more likely  Even as a joke,, that could be used agaisnt me..  so increasing my risk.. i simply dint care .foolish perhaps..


BC - lol!  keep the tissue handy..

The truth is i did far more to limit my wifes risk, than my own.
It was  important to me that if she relocated her whole life here for me,, that even if things dint work out,  her time here was an oppurtunity for improvement in education, experience ,english abilty.. something positive.
.
  All that could be, was  done to prepare her a good start and situation here.This was done REGARDLESS of thoughts of wether we would stay married or not.
there was preparation to reestablish herself in ukraine ,
or make  a clean start here,,  if things did not work out.
She knew these were my thoughts,and those  thoughts havn't changed.

Did i do a great job at it? probably not..
but it was my intention that her risks be as minimal as possible.


I think KenC's situation (and likely many others) was similar?
 in that when Lena came here..
if things ultimately had not gone so well,
the risks for her were reduced.. ?
it would have  been at the wost case ,
an oppurtunity for her ,,to visit the USA, get aquanted with the country and area, with KenC, ,continue her education..
and if things dint pan out still some positives ?

  
A sincere man is going to be concerned about his wifes risks..
he may mitigate his own as best he can..
but hers will be in his mind as well.
his actions,or inactions , will speak VOLUMES to the (RW) woman involved.
 
 

[Jumper]

groov-

nice post,,
but stop making so much sense, it isn't allowed around here.. LOL

since i'll be plus 5 years or marriage in a couple weeks..
i'll give you my take..

you're right.and sometimes the obvious needs pointed out.
the fundementals of if she actually just LIKES you, isnt after a GC,,
or is polite enough to introduce you to her family and friends,
 are pretty much staples of initial dating, not a foudation of marriage.
hopefully those are very minimum standards to even date long term..

Knowing someone well.. over time, and understanding their character.. and really LIKING each other for who you each really are..
likely gets you thru some initial hurdles and first honeymoon and *honeymoons over* stages..
a couple initial years of marriage?

since i consider 5 years  short term..
i have no idea what it takes for marriages like my grandparents had of 50 or 60 years together (64 actually on my fathers side)

but  i will say that anyones spouse's  nationality will probably mean very very little in the equation after marriage.
So the long term success is of course the same fundamentals of any marriage.
A couples love/ commitment to each other, and respect for each other
(great point by kenC)
good communication..
pateince /understanding that life and people change and evolve,,
 and everyone goes thru times when thier priorities shift a bit....

if thier was some magic formula,, it would already be well known and a best sellar..?

my own attempt is simple ,to keep things like we were first dating.
treat each other with that  same initial respect and kind thoughts ,words and deeds daily..

[steviej]

Whenever the "time spent together" chestnut comes up there's always someone who points to the low divorce rates in arranged marriages between Indians or Muslims followed by guys who claim they were married 10 years but ultimately divorced a stranger.

Although I think both claims are irrelevant to such discussions here, I think it would be valuable to explore the benefits of getting to know the person you plan to spend the rest of your life with. This might seem a no-brainer to most, but so many guys with a trip or two under their belts read Maxx's stories and seem to think the biggest benefit to knowing a girl well before proposing is to be sure she is not a scammer or GCG

The internal checklists during initial dating are valuable (does she insist on eating at expensive restaurants? Does she introduce me to her family and friends? Does she show affection?, etc.) but IMHO are given way too much credence. Passing these little "tests" should lead to further dates and mutual exploration, yet too many guys think it's a good enough foundation to go directly to a marriage proposal. I'm sure it's a big relief to feel confident that your new GF isn't after your wallet or a green card, but are your standards of what you want in marriage so low that this is enough reason to propose?

On the flip side, I'd also guess that knowing each other well is not a ticket to long-term success - rather it's just enough to allow you to get your foot in the door, at best a green light and good odds for reaching the two or three-year mark. This is not a knock against taking one's time, just the reality that even doing things right is no guarantee for success.

I'd love to hear opinions from the Kens and BCs and Scotts who have 5+ years of marriage, on this topic.

Our 6th anniversary is this November !! The "time together" before marriage is not a panacea, as groov points out. It really fascinates me that in US, the divorce rate for couples that lived together first is about 5% higher than couples that did not. What it means is that just knowing each other "really really well" does not guarantee a successsful marriage. I think there's an "optimum" time, not too short, not too long.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here (he he). I think ambach is gonna find a sweet, just a bit simple, girl who is gonna love his *ss off, and when he celebrates his 25th anniversary, we are all gonna faint !! (ambach, dont get sucked into going for the "10s" and you'll be alright.)

Hey, I've been wrong before !!

[KenC]

Although I think both claims are irrelevant to such discussions here, I think it would be valuable to explore the benefits of getting to know the person you plan to spend the rest of your life with. This might seem a no-brainer to most, but so many guys with a trip or two under their belts read Maxx's stories and seem to think the biggest benefit to knowing a girl well before proposing is to be sure she is not a scammer or GCG

Groov,
Great point!
My standards for marriage are a little higher than just knowing the woman isn't a scammer.  The problem as you pointed out is that some guys cannot get the concept of the old MOB's out of their head.  Check the catalog: Is she pretty enough? check!  Is she young enough? check! Is she dumb enough? check! Is she desperate enough? Check!  OK honey, lemme tell ya bout what a K-1 is all about. :selfharm:

As anyone with the slightest bit of common sense should understand that knowing that the woman is not out to use you for nefarious purposes is just the minimum qualities to begin a real relationhip. There is a long long way to go from there.
KenC