Is it OK to meet with more than one woman on your trip to FSU

[groovlstk]

Gator,

What you and Viking said above makes perfect logical sense. But applying logic to matters of the heart is not something I've seen very often - unless a woman has ulterior motives when reeling in her man.

[msmoby_ru]

Let us not talk about the advantages and disadvantages to men.  Rather, let us examine the mentality of RW who require that you go WOVO; otherwise, they will not meet you.

One or more of the following traits will describe these RW:

1.  They believe they are princesses and because of their beauty they are entitled to a man's full attention.

2.  They believe in destiny and soulmates, thinking a man from a strange land will realize readily from her photo and words that she was destined for him and only him.

3.  They are controlling, demanding and inflexible.

4.  They are in charge and are interviewing you for husband vacancy - it is their decision whether you are good enough for them.

5.  They do not have the confidence to compete against other RW.

6.  They are lonely and have no dating life with RM and expect you to be the same.


Is there anything in the above list that seems appealing?  Some of these women have three or more of these traits. 

Okay, shoot me.

Choose the weapon I will use... AKA 47, T34 tank, Katyusha ...  and I will respond in the morning... be afraid.. VERY afraid !!!



Mark

[Ooooops]

I will admit that if a man has spent months corresponding with a RW, and has used romantic terms, then it is appropriate that she receive WOVO treatment.

But if he doesn't do it then what motivates him to get on a plane to fly on the other side of the globe?   Russian "avos" (may be) that one of the many is The One?    Sounds kinda strange to me...   

[Misha]

If you plan to visit one woman only, are you prepared to...
-Discover within the first five minutes that she is not what you expected (or vice-versa)? In my experience and from what I've read here, this occurence is the NORM - success stories involving even so much as a second meeting are uncommon).
-If you have the heart to be honest with this woman you thought you were attracted to, good for you. But you're now stuck in a city for x number of days where few speak your language and fewer understand your culture.
-That long flight home gets exponentially longer while you sit cramped in coach, contemplating how you ended up pissing away a week's vacation and $5k chasing the moon.

I agree with you. However, I wonder why a trip to Russia or anywhere can't be simply that: a nice vacation. There are wonderful things to see in Russia and places to visit. If a guy does not like traveling to Russia, what is the point of looking for a wife there? Odds are that you will have to return there from time to time if you get married. Why not see if you can actually like the country for something other than the women?

[Taz]

Almost every time when I went to Russia it was a vacation. If I met someone on a trip and we hit it off, then the next trip would be to go back and see them. I was a MMVO (met many visited one). I made for a very stress free vacation where the success was measured in if I had a good time rather than by how many women I met with.

I can't say that I ever had a trip where I didn't meet some amazing women in passing. I might meet a woman while working and then ask her out. I made some great male friends and they later introduced me to nice women or invited me to a party and then I met some amazing women there. All I can say is the more you know the language the greater your options are. While you don't have to know Russian it sure makes your trip a lot richer. I don't think I ever dated a RW/UW that ever had more than a level 1 ability in English and after I learned it pretty well I don't think I ever dated one who knew more than maybe 10 words in it.

[Blues Fairy]

But if he doesn't do it then what motivates him to get on a plane to fly on the other side of the globe?   Russian "avos" (may be) that one of the many is The One?    Sounds kinda strange to me...   

Many people here don't believe in writing letters.   "On s'engage et puis on vois" seems to be RWD's favorite mantra.

[Ooooops]

Many people here don't believe in writing letters.   "On s'engage et puis on vois" seems to be RWD's favorite mantra.

Google rules!     Get started and then see what happens (c)...   Well, then there is no wonder that there is so much concern about financial part of this.   Gets kinda expensive to be Napoleon over and over and over again...   

[viking]

  BF. Why do I feel like I am looking at a young Joan Baez when I see your avatar?

[msmoby_ru]

Let us not talk about the advantages and disadvantages to men.  Rather, let us examine the mentality of RW who require that you go WOVO; otherwise, they will not meet you.

Do you use the expression what a load of Bo**ocks in the US ?!

Let's examine this provocative post ...

One or more of the following traits will describe these RW:


1.  They believe they are princesses and because of their beauty they are entitled to a man's full attention.

Well, what are they to think if we ( Western Men ) are prepared to fly to another country - a long way from home to seek them out ?.. Let's face it we don't hear ( too often) of Western ladies heading over to find a FSU guy - or vice versa...

2.  They believe in destiny and soulmates, thinking a man from a strange land will realize readily from her photo and words that she was destined for him and only him. 

Hopefully, there might be a few more criteria checked before hopping on the plane!

3.  They are controlling, demanding and inflexible.   

Sweeping generalisation..not found to be the case in my experience of FSU women I live around - just expecting honesty - and not seeing it

4.  They are in charge and are interviewing you for husband vacancy - it is their decision whether you are good enough for them. 

..and what is the man doing ? - hopefully, they'll be "good enough" for us, but most important - will you be good for each other ?!.. These meetings are the most important "interviews" you may have - particularly if it might later involve having kids, together.. !

5.  They do not have the confidence to compete against other RW. 

Actually, quite the opposite - they help each other with their profiles and advise on a men - who might want to visit...or when they see "red flags".

6.  They are lonely and have no dating life with RM and expect you to be the same.

Of course they are lonely.. that's WHY they are looking - it's why I looked... and, HELLO, they may be expressing a preference for WM, over RM, by posting their profile for us to see !

Is there anything in the above list that seems appealing?  Some of these women have three or more of these traits. 

Seems to be a very cynical viewpoint you have ! As *I* contend... FSU ladies are becoming increasingly "savvy" and cautious, and we must "thank" some of those who've been before us.... or not

Okay, shoot me.

You didn't express a method to be "terminated" ... yet !

I will admit that if a man has spent months corresponding with a RW, and has used romantic terms, then it is appropriate that she receive WOVO treatment.

Now *IF* you'd only included this in your first post, the firing squad could have been cancelled

[Gator]

Choose the weapon I will use... AKA 47, T34 tank, Katyusha ...  and I will respond in the morning... be afraid.. VERY afraid !!!

Me think your bark is worse than your bite.  I was prepared for severe palpitations.

1.  They believe they are princesses and because of their beauty they are entitled to a man's full attention.

Well, what are they to think if we ( Western Men ) are prepared to fly to another country - a long way from home to seek them out ?.. Let's face it we don't hear ( too often) of Western ladies heading over to find a FSU guy - or vice versa...

Being a princess is fine if she treats her man like a prince.  Most princesses do not. I am not saying that a man should meet other women just to have the upper hand - that would be a game.  However, I don't think the man should feel the need to bow or curtsy.

2.  They believe in destiny and soulmates, thinking a man from a strange land will realize readily from her photo and words that she was destined for him and only him. 

Hopefully, there might be a few more criteria checked before hopping on the plane!

Her primary thought is that you are not destined to be her man:  if you were, she would have touched your soul and you would not think about other women.   When in love, I don't think about other women; however, I don't fall in love before I spend time with a woman.  Limerance before the first meeting - pleeeease!

3. They are controlling, demanding and inflexible.

  

Sweeping generalisation..not found to be the case in my experience of FSU women I live around - just expecting honesty - and not seeing it

I felt this with one UW who interrogated me relentlessly about my trip and dumped me when I mentioned I was going to other cities.   Most RW politely skirt this issue - they know the situation.  

4.  They are in charge and are interviewing you for husband vacancy - it is their decision whether you are good enough for them. 

 
..and what is the man doing ? - hopefully, they'll be "good enough" for us, but most important - will you be good for each other ?!.. These meetings are the most important "interviews" you may have - particularly if it might later involve having kids, together.. !

You are correct.  This is exactly what all RW are doing unless they are desperate.  However, I prefer a casual first meeting where we have fun together and then decide the next step.  Akin to having a job interview on the golf course. 

5.  They do not have the confidence to compete against other RW. 

Actually, quite the opposite - they help each other with their profiles and advise on a men - who might want to visit...or when they see "red flags".

I doubt two RW would help each other if they have stars in their eyes for the same man.

6.  They are lonely and have no dating life with RM and expect you to be the same.

Of course they are lonely.. that's WHY they are looking - it's why I looked... and, HELLO, they may be expressing a preference for WM, over RM, by posting their profile for us to see !

You are correct in that many RW with agencies have vowed "No RM."  Nevertheless, loneliness is a weakness.  It makes one perhaps behave irrationally.

In summary, if you had really impressed a woman, I doubt that she would discard you even if you were planning to visit more than her.  Thus her refusal probably avoids a wasted meeting.

Likewise, if you had strong feelings for one woman and felt other women on your list were "choot choot," you would probably fulfill her wishes (not concede to her demands) to visit only her, or at least to arrange the trip so that she was on center stage.

[Ooooops]

Nevertheless, loneliness is a weakness.  It makes one perhaps behave irrationally.

ROY ORBISON - ONLY THE LONELY -

[viking]

Even better. Mr. Lonely by Bobby Vinton

[I/O]

Oh goody, the usual BS on how or why to deceive. Moby: IIRC my opening stoush on here was started by saying something like (To a VM guy) "I would say an emphatic don't do it". A couple of thousand useless posts later I've not changed my view and I doubt I've changed anyone else's view. I've heard the arguments in favour of VM and the biggest BS argument is "Look it worked for me". And what? If you need advice on to how to take a pee in Russia, why would I advise you to pee out the train window @ 20 below @ 35 MPH just because it worked for me.........it was a desperation move in the absence of alternatives, effort and or planning.

Guys might like to consider, as time goes along there is becoming less decent and serious women in Russia who will accept or even bother with the VM guys. Is there still enough that will? Take your punt and find out. If the VM thing was so bullet proof, I doubt we'd see so many posts advising guys on how NOT to tell the ladies what is happening. It's a slippery slope on which a handful of guys keep their feet and most don't.

IMO the VM is most likely to provide success in situations where the guy is absolute stand out or the woman is desperate. From what I've seen there is far more of the latter than the former involved in this caper.

I/O

[myrddin]

I actually do find this debate interesting as I began dreaming of being a WM(or WO)VO, and perhaps because I’ve missed so many years of it .  Over the past few months, I read a lot here about the various advantages and disadvantages, and of course inspiring success stories. 

In the last few years, I’ve met most of the AW I dated online initially (including the one I married). It occurred to me that one problem I had with AW was that I waited too long to meet in person.

When I started writing, I was doing better than on American websites, which was good, but there was a lot of room for improvement.  I wondered if the keyboard romeo experience (new band name!) had soured the field.  I thought I had some advantages, too, having actually been to Moscow and St. Petersburg. 

I know people starting out in this search wonder which method to pursue, but I think it’s entirely a matter of personal taste.  No one else’s experience directly applies to someone else, but there’s something to be learned or this board wouldn’t exist.  Whatever someone’s inclination, I’d advise them to do some soul-searching and study what groovlstk summed up upthread.

None of my early writing contacts inspired me to actually go.  So I chucked the idea of writing a lot before meeting, remembering my AW experiences, and decided I would just go to Ukraine, whether there were ladies to meet or not. I concentrated on writing ladies in that area and did not get much response. So I pretty much forgot about meeting anyone before the VM trip got sprung on me, and it was great.  For me.  I actually found this very surprising. I still do.

As Gator suggests, most ladies are gracious enough not to press the issue.  And I would answer honestly if asked, even if it meant she’d dump me immediately.  I’m not gonna ask her if she’s seeing other men.

If I do have to start over, I honestly don’t know if I’d go VM or VO (at first – everyone hopes to get VO at some point!).  But I do know that I wouldn’t start writing much more than 3 months before my planned trip. And that I would look at some agency profiles before I went, just in case things didn’t work out in person.

FWIW

[Gator]

If the VM thing was so bullet proof, I doubt we'd see so many posts advising guys on how NOT to tell the ladies what is happening. It's a slippery slope on which a handful of guys keep their feet and most don't.

What is so slippery about meeting more than one rather than one?  Also, how would you know that "most" such men fall on their arse?

All else being equal, there are just two downsides:

1.  The VM man has to take one additonal trip over the VO man because he could not use his first trip to build a relationship with the ONE he eventually decided that he wants.

2.  When you do meet one whom you really like, and she likes you, and both of you want to spend more time together, it is not easy to call the remaining women and cancel the meetings.  Better that than have a disinterested meeting and irritating the one woman whom you really like.

I can appreciate your opinion if men shopped like women at the "man store" but most of us don't.   A confident man makes his decision to stay and forget about the others, or he moves on, never to return.

[Gator]

The phone pulled me away, and I am back to continue.

I always wondered what type of relationship a man developed over the phone before deciding to meet only one.   Perhaps this explains the difference between VO and VM men.

I never connected emotionally prior to a meeting, nor did I express any words misleading a woman to think I felt something.  I felt something, enough to really want to meet her, but nothing to make me speak lines resembling a Valentine's Card.   Yet, some men are able to make this happen or otherwise why do they get on the plane to meet just one.  And we have multiple RWD men who did that, married her and are happy today.

Maybe in comparison with a VO man, I am too reserved or simply a dullard with regard to romance on the telephone and Internet with someone I never met.  Yet, I am affectionate and tactile in person and enjoy Sweet Nothings.  I certainly had VO feelings upon meeting, prompting me to return to Russia again and again and again.

[Faux Pas]

I actually do find this debate interesting as I began dreaming of being a WM(or WO)VO, and perhaps because I’ve missed so many years of it .  Over the past few months, I read a lot here about the various advantages and disadvantages, and of course inspiring success stories. 

myrrdin,

Given you've just written this quoted statement, I gather you at some point considered or were considering a VO before your recent trip. Although I have not seen the final of your TP, at this point, what would you say your next trip will be, VM or VO? I would hope a VO, I am sure it was a fun and exciting trip but, if not a VO, wouldn't that make your recent trip a disappointment?

I ask that myrrdin not to put you on the spot but, over several forums I see endless TP's where guys have been doing the VM for 10-12 years. Over that time span have met countless women. My question is, what's the point?  I mean, I could possibly understand the first trip a VM but for a second and subsequent trips? Again, what is the point?

[WmGO]

If you plan to visit one woman only, are you prepared to...
-Discover within the first five minutes that she is not what you expected (or vice-versa)? In my experience and from what I've read here, this occurence is the NORM - success stories involving even so much as a second meeting are uncommon).

Sociological/psychological studies reflect that something
like 90% of women will decide in their mind/heart within
1 to 5 minutes of meeting a man as to whether she would ever
sleep with him. If the woman does not decide
in her mind within those few minutes that she would/could do so, then
he is no longer a candidate as a potential romantic partner. And it is
case closed, sayanora baby!!!!!!!!!!!    :evil:

[WmGO]

Let us not talk about the advantages and disadvantages to men.  Rather, let us examine the mentality of RW who require that you go WOVO; otherwise, they will not meet you.

One or more of the following traits will describe these RW:

1.  They believe they are princesses and because of their beauty they are entitled to a man's full attention.

2.  They believe in destiny and soulmates, thinking a man from a strange land will realize readily from her photo and words that she was destined for him and only him.

3.  They are controlling, demanding and inflexible.

4.  They are in charge and are interviewing you for husband vacancy - it is their decision whether you are good enough for them.

5.  They do not have the confidence to compete against other RW.

6.  They are lonely and have no dating life with RM and expect you to be the same.


Is there anything in the above list that seems appealing?  Some of these women have three or more of these traits. 

Okay, shoot me.

That about sums it up. Or the man can just be a wuss and commit
himself to jumping through her hoops.......

[myrddin]

myrrdin,

Given you've just written this quoted statement, I gather you at some point considered or were considering a VO before your recent trip.

I was considering it in fantasies and looking for encouragement that it could possibly work, there were no specific candidates.  Until I saw that Taz was going and offering to help people, I figured I would not be making a trip for awhile. The timing worked out and it looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity (and part of me was worried that if I waited too long to actually go, I might never get over there).

Although I have not seen the final of your TP, at this point, what would you say your next trip will be, VM or VO? I would hope a VO, I am sure it was a fun and exciting trip but, if not a VO, wouldn't that make your recent trip a disappointment?

It was all of that.  And no, nothing that happens in the future could make that trip a disappointment.  I can’t judge the trip itself by outside criteria.  Unexpected twists are virtually guaranteed.  (I am not planning a VM for my next trip  )

I ask that myrrdin not to put you on the spot but, over several forums I see endless TP's where guys have been doing the VM for 10-12 years. Over that time span have met countless women. My question is, what's the point?  I mean, I could possibly understand the first trip a VM but for a second and subsequent trips? Again, what is the point?

I haven’t been at it that long and I really hope I won’t be.  In this whole discussion, I’ve been thinking about the first trip of a search. While there could be multiple searches, making only VMs for that length of time sounds like what I’ve started calling “JD Syndrome”. 

I agree with you that (sincere) people are hoping only that first trip is VM.  I’m not arguing against VO for a first trip, it’s just something one has to decide for himself.  Before I actually went, I would not have considered visiting many myself.  But my impression was that most VOs actually don’t work out (just as most first dates don’t).  Which would mean multiple first-time VOs.  Either way, you’re seeing multiple ladies, it’s just a question of whether you go in series or in parallel. 

[ambach123]

I have spent past few months writing to establish some sort of communication via email and telephone.

I am up to 15 women in Kiev and the outskirts.

I will go in September for ten days. Ten days and fifteen ladies, I think it is quite a lot. Some women seem to be very interested. Some lukewarm pending a meeting.

I will come back and then think this over carefully. I would return to meet selected few or the one.

Success is not guarnteed, I don't know how far I would get with any of them.

Jack Bragg has written someplace " If you meet with 15 ladies the odds are that you will find two who like you and you like them ". That is the number he has suggested.

I can't be too optimistic, but the whole thing may not take more than a few months from start to K-1. That gives you 90 days to decide to marry after her arrival.

I don't know of any other way to do this and even if there is another way.

[msmoby_ru]

90% of women will decide in their mind/heart within
1 to 5 minutes of meeting a man as to whether she would ever
sleep with him.

.. and someone got paid for that study ! Have you the link for it, please...?

If the woman does not decide
in her mind within those few minutes that she would/could do so, then
he is no longer a candidate as a potential romantic partner. And it is
case closed, sayanora baby!!!!!!!!!!!    :evil:

Which goes to show why I'm increasingly feeling like an "Old Git", and my brain must be working harder than somewhere else....  

WmGo.. I think you're probably having a ball visiting FSU, too, and meeting like minded women  ... and THEN..............?

Let me know when you work out that the Lady will also think a bit beyond this oversimplistic thought - you know like... and after the meals, sex.. when he gets what he wants, how will he look after me.. any kids we might have or have, already between us.... blah, blah...

Yep.. we're poles apart

[Blues Fairy]

I don't know of any other way to do this and even if there is another way.

It used to take me 4-5 letters on average to clearly understand whether the man who wrote them had a chance with me or not.  I had dozens of penpals and all were eventually discarded except ONE.  After 50+ letters between us, it was as clear as a day that we've become very good friends.  To take a step further and meet in person, exclusively, was natural and practically risk-free.

Indeed I don't know of any other way to "do this" and even if there is another way.

[I/O]

What is so slippery about meeting more than one rather than one? 

Gator how many threads have we seen discussing how to avoid directly telling women what is happening or avoiding the question? Basically IMO it comes down to how to sell the white lie, thus, again IMO, once you start in that direction, you are standing with one foot on a bannana skin so to say. Again, I would ask, if it is so simple, why so many questions or debates on how to go about it? I have only ever seen one solid plan set down which removes all risk of offence.
 

Also, how would you know that "most" such men fall on their arse?

Gator, the vulgarity of your words almost makes me blush. Gator, in my limited research, which I freely admit, like any research on this subject is based on talking to people, reading and listening (No credible formal stats seem to be available). RWD has as higher percentage of WM married as I have seen on any report, board or heard of. Of the people I have spoken to directly, the resulting marriages from VO vs VM is roughly 50/50, but the more relevant factor is how many actually go through to marriage? RWD has what? In excess of 3000 members and how many of them are married as a result of this persuit? A couple of hundred or less? RWD is but a drop, that is a tiny drop in the Ocean of men chasing international relationships. I am directly aware of approximately 150 guys from Aus over the last 20 years who have followed this idea and of that group, I know of less than 30 who have married as a result. Of that married group, the VO vs VM is almost exactly 50/50. If that sample is indicative, and I believe it is, less than 30 from 150 is approximately 20%, thus most fail.

One of the interesting things to me and it is a side note, of the people I am aware of here in Aus who married via this type of idea, going as far back as 22 years with one, all are still married. Zero divorces.

To your comments regarding the women who will only accept a VO guy. Honestly I think you are streching long bows with your points and as such I'll simply give you a couple of counter comments.

Women who like the VM man are rare. (Some will tolerate it)

Women who like the VM man are indecisive.

Women who like the VM man are more likely to play.

Women who like the VM man are more likely to be GTG's.

Women who like the VM man leave you wondering when or if they might commit. I could go on and these are basically some things I found for myself. It comes down to the orginal question, is it OK to VM? Of course it is OK. Will it work? Sometimes.

I/O

[msmoby_ru]

That about sums it up. Or the man can just be a wuss and commit
himself to jumping through her hoops.......

Yep... I feel I'm really old, now .. this is the mindset of someone who will make an really understanding partner .... I want to be surprised.. really, I do...

Do your ask your dates straight out - "here's want I am, and this what I'm here for.. so what have you got to offer ?" ... or are you more direct ?

Call me Mr. Wuss! ...