Epidemic of Cold Feet

[OlgaH]

Olga, I agree with what you say and I do take care of my fiancee's needs in many ways besides physical. I don't think I'd have much problem satisfying any woman in complete fashion. I'm happy with the lady I have now and the options available to me if things don't work out. This thread isn't about being married and getting old where physical needs naturally diminish and other things that bond a marriage are more important, it's about cold feet and relationships breaking apart before marriage. I don't care how successful, good looking, decent, kind a man is or how good he is fulfilling a woman's emotional needs, the moment she thinks she just made love to a cold fish or piece of wood, the relationship will go down hill and she will get cold feet.

This thread is also not about making love to cold fish or piece of wood or bull  You don't care probably because  you don't know what women know - that a cold fish or piece of wood can not fulfill a woman's emotional needs and btw some even hot bulls can not do it as well  because woman's emotional needs don't depend on sex (of course if she is not put sex before everything in her life)

Woman can get cold feet right before marriage just because she realizes that there is nothings in common and probably everything was her illusions; and even a fact that he is a skillful bull in bed will not help, because life and love is not only about sex. It is better when people realize it before marriage than after 

[ScottinCrimea]

BillyB, sorry to disagree, but the main act in cheating is NOT sex.  The cheating can happen long before that and in a vast variety of ways, with sex being the culmination of the cheating, not the initiation of it.

I've noticed that you focus a lot on sexual prowess or the lack thereof as an extremely important factor in winning and keeping a woman, citing this as one of your strengths.  While I won't dispute that it is an important factor (for some more than others), as the women here have noted, there is a heck of a lot more to it than that.  Some women are willing to compromise in that area in exchange for other things that a man offers, such as a greater emotional intimacy.  It's not so much about passion and physical intimacy as it is about emotional intimacy, and that can be immensely more satisfying.

[IAmZon]

I have read many of Billy's posts and he stand out in my mind as level headed and clear.  I am as big of fans of scratch marks as any, but the best and most memorable sex comes from the type of intimacy that Scott describes.  But Billy is more than just a brute. I think he was speaking in the larger measure of taking "manly" charge and leading in a relationship that goes beyond just "good effort."

I remember a historic post by Blues Fairy saying good bye and mentioning "it is in your hands," to her new lover.   

I think the answer to the main question posed by Gator is this:  Many conditions have improved to the point where warm will no longer will do.  It seems to me the temperature must be hot from now on, and the entire situation requires greater confirmation too.  This is true in many recent successful cases.

To this, I say, GOOD.  Probably needed to be that way all along. 

(Certainly no offense to the recent examples of crash and burn)

[KenC]

Ken, the main act in cheating is sex. It's physical, not emotional. Emotion may play a role before sex for women but ultimately the final act is physical. Women can downplay their cheating as if it's not as bad sounding as men's by claiming romance, intimacy, and sexual excitement in your list are all emotions but it's not going to fool me into thinking those poor women's emotions aren't being taken care of by their man so it's their man's fault. If they feel like they need another man to get their emotional physical needs taken care of, they need to get out of the relationship they're currently in first.

Billy,
I couldn't disagree with you more.  In fact, I think you have things exactly backwards.  If the most important factor is the physical sex you provide to your lady, you could easily be replaced by a viberator.  I know you seem to be proud of your sexual prowess, and that's great, but if you do not fulfill your woman's intimate emotional needs, she WILL go looking for that,  And THAT doesn't come in a box with batteries.
KenC

[BillyB]

BillyB, sorry to disagree, but the main act in cheating is NOT sex. 

Tell that to the judge if you're ever caught cheating and in the middle of a divorce. He's not going to buy it. Also he's not going to penalize a wife for cheating if the only evidence against her was that she was hugging another man and getting emotional support.

If anyone is still confused, pull out an official dictionary for a definition of "cheating". It is To be sexually unfaithful. Nowhere does it say emotional although emotions may play a factor for both men and women to engage in a physical act. One can define their "personal" beliefs in what cheating is and that can included beleiving their partner is cheating if they're just looking at the opposite sex walking down the street but lets stick with the official definition.

I've noticed that you focus a lot on sexual prowess or the lack thereof as an extremely important factor in winning and keeping a woman, citing this as one of your strengths.  While I won't dispute that it is an important factor (for some more than others), as the women here have noted, there is a heck of a lot more to it than that.

Scott, after reading hundreds or even thousands of my posts and you being an educated doctor, I'm surprised you said that.

I have read many of Billy's posts and he stand out in my mind as level headed and clear.  Billy is more than just a brute.

Thank you Riv. You get it. Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time yet many here think I'm focused on sex alone. Go figure? They have bad memories or ignore the many times I've spoken about how to treat a woman, how to act in front of her, being faithful, fulfilling her needs, how to better your own life for the benefit of your lady, and how to win her over without material possessions. Why do they forget or ignore? Maybe for personal reasons or to make me look bad. For you newbies who believe I'm focused on sex or like to boast about owning a successful business based on what others say, read my past posts for yourself. I have reasons to be upset with false claims but my lady knows the truth and she's happy with all of me. I'm also surprised for the very few times the importance of sex is talked about here, people get overly defensive when it's talked about. Offering the complete package to your partner includes a good physical relationship. People can't put up with "bad" in any category for long.

[DKMM]

Women need emotional attachment.  It can manifest in physical ways, but it also needs to be in other ways like Gator mentioned.  You can be a rich casanova like me and still fail at this if she's not emotionally attached (see my failed relationship last winter as example).

[KenC]

 Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time yet many here think I'm focused on sex alone. Go figure? They have bad memories or ignore the many times I've spoken about how to treat a woman, how to act in front of her, being faithful, fulfilling her needs, how to better your own life for the benefit of your lady, and how to win her over without material possessions. Why do they forget or ignore? Maybe for personal reasons or to make me look bad. For you newbies who believe I'm focused on sex or like to boast about owning a successful business based on what others say, read my past posts for yourself. I have reasons to be upset with false claims but my lady knows the truth and she's happy with all of me. I'm also surprised for the very few times the importance of sex is talked about here, people get overly defensive when it's talked about. Offering the complete package to your partner includes a good physical relationship. People can't put up with "bad" in any category for long.

Billy,
Why is it everytime someone disagrees with your opinion, you go into "victim mode"?  Gator started this thread about exploring the reasons for RW misleading some men into thinking their relationship was more than it really was.  While discussing the emotional ramifications of such deceptions, you offer up that some guys just don't bang their women hard enough.  If that wasn't bizarre enough , you go on to ask some very inappropriate questions of OlgaH.

You made your point (no matter how off the wall and off color it may be) and many here disagreed with it.  There is no conspiracy to "get Billy" just a lot of folks with opinions that differ from the one you offered up here.  Chill out.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Tell that to the judge if you're ever caught cheating and in the middle of a divorce. He's not going to buy it. Also he's not going to penalize a wife for cheating if the only evidence against her was that she was hugging another man and getting emotional support.

But BillyB, it's not the judge I'm married to and non-sexual "cheating" will get you in front of that judge just as easily, if not more easily, than the sexual type.

If anyone is still confused, pull out an official dictionary for a definition of "cheating". It is To be sexually unfaithful. Nowhere does it say emotional although emotions may play a factor for both men and women to engage in a physical act. One can define their "personal" beliefs in what cheating is and that can included beleiving their partner is cheating if they're just looking at the opposite sex walking down the street but lets stick with the official definition.

Show me your dictionary reference.  When I look, the definition of cheating is pretty broad and includes many acts of dishonesty as well as being "unfaithful" to a spouse.  So maybe now we need to debate the definition of unfaithful?  Cheating is NOT defined as strictly sexual and in some references this is considered an informal definition

Scott, after reading hundreds or even thousands of my posts and you being an educated doctor, I'm surprised you said that.

I'm not sure what you are surprised by here - That I said you often focused on sexual prowess? That I didn't dispute that sex is a factor? Or that there is a heck of a lot more than that?

Thank you Riv. You get it. Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time yet many here think I'm focused on sex alone. Go figure? They have bad memories or ignore the many times I've spoken about how to treat a woman, how to act in front of her, being faithful, fulfilling her needs, how to better your own life for the benefit of your lady, and how to win her over without material possessions. Why do they forget or ignore? Maybe for personal reasons or to make me look bad. For you newbies who believe I'm focused on sex or like to boast about owning a successful business based on what others say, read my past posts for yourself. I have reasons to be upset with false claims but my lady knows the truth and she's happy with all of me. I'm also surprised for the very few times the importance of sex is talked about here, people get overly defensive when it's talked about. Offering the complete package to your partner includes a good physical relationship. People can't put up with "bad" in any category for long.

This thread and maybe one other time?  We all have bad memories or are making false claims as some sort of "vast right wing conspiracy"?  Okay, I confess.  At our weekly meeting of the "Let's Get BillyB Society" we hashed out this plot. Maybe it's time to do a little search back through your posts to solve this puzzling dilemma.

[Gator]

Gator started this thread about exploring the reasons for RW misleading some men into thinking their relationship was more than it really was. 

To be more precise, I feel it is more about men misleading themselves.  My thought is that many AM are assuming and hoping for more mutual love than actually exists, not being able to groundtruth it as they could with an AW because of language barrier, cultural differences, age gap, and geographic separation.  Perhaps RW are so naturally alluring that we forget our past experiences.

I was being overly optimistic in my relationship with my Cossack fiancee.  Virtually everything suggested that she was really into me (and Billy, mind boggling sex too).  And I had an interpreter confirming such with a series of girl-to-girl talks.  Yet, when the time came, the Cossack was not ready to abandon her family, friends and country to start a new life with me.  She had options and said "Nyet."

She will say that she had to be careful because she was responsible for two children.  I say that she did not feel true love.

Perhaps DKMM can shed some light about his example. Who was doing most of the misleading in the following failed relationship?  Yourself or your woman? 

Women need emotional attachment.  It can manifest in physical ways, but it also needs to be in other ways like Gator mentioned.  You can be a rich casanova like me and still fail at this if she's not emotionally attached (see my failed relationship last winter as example).

[SANDRO43]

BillyB, sorry to disagree, but the main act in cheating is NOT sex.

Before cheating, in which I never indulged while married, I think there's something even MUCH more important, i.e. being thoroughly disappointed, existentially speaking, in your chosen life-time partner.

My personal experience: 2 years into my marriage, in 1971 I was shipped out of IBM Italy with a then incredibly-fabulous opportunity (foreign assignments were 2-3 years long at the time), i.e. spending 6 months in a sister unit in London and then 6 months in San Jose, as an international experience that would eventually make me a Publications Mgr. on my return to Italy. After 1 month in the UK, they told me "Forget California, you'll stay here the rest of the year". Pity, but OK, London was an enjoyable city in any case.

After another month, they told me "Your home unit (who's paying for your foreign assignment) has been disbanded (meaning that I would not thenceforth be a free asset to them), so we're changing your manager, job and location" (from central London, a 20-minute walk from where I had rented my flat, to East Croydon, meaning I'd have to commute there from Victoria Station each day). My rosy professional future had been blown out of the water, and I think one can imagine my disillusionment when, in addition to my career problems, I found that my then wife, whose only occupation was attending IBM UK-paid English classes in the mornings and minding the apartment/preparing for our dinner in the afternoons, seemed to be completely oblivious to/unconcerned with these problems of mine (and of our entire family, as a consequence, since she was just a housewife at the time).

I eventually managed to overcome my professional difficulties with flying colours (to the point that IBM UK asked me to remain there for another year), but realised in the process that I had married a total non-entity (which turned me off her completely), and the fact that her only reaction to my increasing lack of sexual interest was to wear sexier bed clothes, confirmed my complete disillusionment in her capacities for human empathy and understanding .

So I'd say that sex, as a tool for re-establishing a wobbling relationship, may work only in certain cases and, to be quite frank, IMPO only with the more "animal-minded" among us . Sex is only a portion, albeit important, of any male-female relationship, there are also a host of other factors that, depending on the specific individual(s), may be equally, or more, important.

[steviej]

To be more precise, I feel it is more about men misleading themselves. 

I get the impression, from the useful things said here, that there were two themes coming out. One was, as Gator pointed out in his original thinking: men misleading themselves. The second which came up (was it here or related somewhere else?) was evolving cultural and economical situation of the FSUWs: is this causing some of them to have second thoughts about relationships that they would have accepted 5-10 years ago?

From my own experience (very small data set: my wife's 5yr younger sisiter and a few of her friends) a 25 yrs FSUW at this time is somewhat different than just 5 years ago -- possibly. On the other hand, I think the over-generalized FSUW attributes from, say 1965, 1975, 1985 and 1995 did not change much. My wife, her mother and her grandmother all seem to share a common set of values about what is a "Real man", marriage, family, and what's important in life for a woman. Her younger sister does not shares these values now. Is she typical and things are evolving, or is she a singularity?

In either case, 5-10yrs ago or now, a man must be able to tell if a woman loves him or not. Some men seem to miss these clues. I wonder, what can they do about? Anything we can teach them? How do you know if you are one of the men that do miss these clues?

[Gator]

I get the impression, from the useful things said here, that there were two themes coming out. One was, as Gator pointed out in his original thinking: men misleading themselves. The second which came up...was evolving cultural and economical situation of the FSUWs: is this causing some of them to have second thoughts about relationships that they would have accepted 5-10 years ago?

Stevie, in my opinion both themes come into play when a sincere RW gets cold feet.

In either case, 5-10yrs ago or now, a man must be able to tell if a woman loves him or not. Some men seem to miss these clues. I wonder, what can they do about? Anything we can teach them? How do you know if you are one of the men that do miss these clues?

A guideline cited by many men is, "You will know when a RW loves you."  Meaning, RW give frequent, varied and obvious signals that even a clueless man could not miss.  I consider "you will know" a good indicator, but not reliable.

I would say spend enough time with a woman to know her.  Yet, George and Jerry spent more time with their RW than the average man entering marriage. 

It is important when spending time together to have fun, yet because of all the differences from dating AW (language, culture, age, moving to strange land, etc.), there must be long, serious and frequent discussion of the relationship, feelings, concerns.  My experience with a few RW is that they rarely volunteer things that trouble them deeply. I had to pull it from them slowly.  Even then, my understanding was incomplete.  This is why a common language is important. 

Now comes the frustrating part.  A man has discussed important topics with his woman such as goals, etc.  He thinks he understands her.  Wrong.  Women are more complex than men, and just when you think you understand them, they change. 

In summary, a RW may really like a man from the beginning.  She is fascinated by the brand new life that he offers.  From the man's perspective, Billy's sexual intensity meter is reading high levels and he is overcome with limerance.  From her perspective, she is feeling that she could probably love the man.  She picks lint from his jacket, gives him tender hugs, looks deeply into his eyes, etc.    It looks great.  Maybe.

RW are by nature skeptical and suspicious.  As time goes by, her concerns about her future life (or him) are not addressed.  True love and trust do not build to the level that would overcome any doubt.  The visa is forthcoming.  A decision must be made.  She sees viable options elsewhere.  Game over:  RW 1, AM 0.  It happens in the US.  Why would we expect it to be different in the FSU.

[KenC]

Gator,
I guess it is time to challenge the saying here "you will know when a RW is in to you."  I am sure George thought his woman was in to him, as did Jerry.  Hell, Maxx probably thought the same about his bride too.  Maybe it is not as clear cut as we have led guys to believe.  In fact maybe it is damn difficult to see for some guys.  RW tend to treat men a whole lot better than AW IMO.  There are much fewer feminist issues (if any) involved.  Western men are just not used to such treatment and I could see how some could be over whelmed by such attention.  I could easily understand how some men could mistake such treatment as love.  Couple that with some mind blowing sex, the exotic location and the motivation of looking for love and you have a man setting himself up big time.  Also consider the fact that many men hold on to the thought that marriage is the end prize that every RW desires, these men think they have all the bases covered.   Little thought is given to the fear of local competition in many cases.  All this is a recipe for disaster.

RW are by nature skeptical and suspicious.  As time goes by, her concerns about her future life (or him) are not addressed.  True love and trust do not build to the level that would overcome any doubt.  The visa is forthcoming.  A decision must be made.  She sees viable options elsewhere.  Game over:  RW 1, AM 0.

Another great point, Gator.  The natural pessimistic nature of RW must be addressed constantly.  Time is not your friend in this area either.  The longer the man takes to pull the trigger, the more convinced the RW is that it will never happen.
KenC

[BillyB]

Show me your dictionary reference.  When I look, the definition of cheating is pretty broad and includes many acts of dishonesty as well as being "unfaithful" to a spouse.  So maybe now we need to debate the definition of unfaithful?  Cheating is NOT defined as strictly sexual and in some references this is considered an informal definition

Scott, it's simple and clear in any mainstream dictionary anyone can google. Cheating is Sexual unfaithfulness. Sexual is an act of Sex and that is performed, not a feeling of emotion. It seems a lot of people want to diminish how bad cheating is when it's done by a woman. To say it's emotion will get people's sympathy since her man is not fullfilling her needs instead of rightful criticism for her dirty deeds. Does anybody care to honor wedding vows "for better or worse"? Maybe a lot of people get cold feet before marriage because they can't handle whatever bad their current partner has forever in marriage. Once in marriage, wedding vows should apply.

Why is it everytime someone disagrees with your opinion, you go into "victim mode"?  

There you go making up stuff again. Ken, I've been rather calm and nice considering the false allegations, that haven't been retracted, made to ridicule/make me look bad.

RW 1, AM 0.

I'm willing to bet men get cold feet as much as or more than the RW. We don't hear about it much since this is a male dominant forum and nobody is going to admit they ever left a RW hanging. There has been a few ladies here asking what is going through their man's head since she suspects they're growing apart. There are lots of men not delivering on promises to even meet some of the ladies and I'm sure many men that may not deliver on on promises of marriage for whatever reason. When Maxxum had financial troubles, his fiancee stuck by his side and now their happily married. I'm sure some men would just disappear on their RW if they had financial trouble. I'm sure some men would just wake up one day with a "What am I doing?" feeling and have a change of heart. Other men, as evident of some questions asked here, are affected by what friends and family say which is usually criticism instead of support. They may crumble under pressure to find someone at home.

There's roughly a 50% divorce rate out there and no doubt there are a higher percent of breakups outside of marriage. Unless you marry the first woman you date, breaking up is a normal part of life. Poor odds in having a lasting relationship with anyone you start a relationship with but if you find the right person and you're right for them, it's worth taking a chance.

[KenC]

Billy,
Please forgive me for only addressing the "on topic" stuff and choosing to ignore your obvious insecurities, OK?

I'm willing to bet men get cold feet as much as or more than the RW. We don't hear about it much since this is a male dominant forum and nobody is going to admit they ever left a RW hanging. There has been a few ladies here asking what is going through their man's head since she suspects they're growing apart.

It seems to me that the many break ups we hear about here from the men's point of view is not necessarily a bout of "cold feet" as they are just faulty relationships that go sideways.  No commitment to marriage per say has been given usually and the relationship just fails to mature to the point of marriage.  I don't think that these types of break ups were what Gator was addressing in the OP.
 

There are lots of men not delivering on promises to even meet some of the ladies

Keyboard Romeo's have terminal "cold feet" and fail to launch even the minimum task of going to visit the ladies.  But there is usually no promise of marriage and this is gamesmanship of the very early stages, even before any true relationship is developed.  Not the same "cold feet" Gator was addressing.

and I'm sure many men that may not deliver on on promises of marriage for whatever reason. When Maxxum had financial troubles, his fiancee stuck by his side and now their happily married. I'm sure some men would just disappear on their RW if they had financial trouble. I'm sure some men would just wake up one day with a "What am I doing?" feeling and have a change of heart. Other men, as evident of some questions asked here, are affected by what friends and family say which is usually criticism instead of support. They may crumble under pressure to find someone at home.

There's roughly a 50% divorce rate out there and no doubt there are a higher percent of breakups outside of marriage. Unless you marry the first woman you date, breaking up is a normal part of life. Poor odds in having a lasting relationship with anyone you start a relationship with but if you find the right person and you're right for them, it's worth taking a chance.

I have not heard of too many men that got "cold feet" after a commitment to marriage is offered, until the woman actually arrives here on a K-1 visa.  That is usually when the cold sweats hit the man.  What clouds the issue prior to her arriving is that many couples jump into the K-1 process prematurely without developing a true and proper relationship IMO.  Has an offer of marriage been extended?  Kind of sort of, but not really.  This is the downside of this process.  Very often everything is rushed before a good relationship has developed.  Again, IMO, this is not a case of "cold feet" but a natural progression of a relationship that fails to mature to the point of marriage.
KenC

[OlgaH]

Scott, it's simple and clear in any mainstream dictionary anyone can google. Cheating is Sexual unfaithfulness.

Cheating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

Cheating (also called gulling) is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others.[1] Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity.

Personal relationships
With regard to human relationships, couples tend to expect sexual monogamy of each other. If so, then cheating commonly refers to forms of infidelity, particularly adultery.[5]. However, there are other divisions of infidelity, which may be emotional. Cheating by thinking of, touching and talking with someone you are attracted to may equally be as damaging to one of the parties. Emotional cheating may be correlated to that of emotional abuse, which to date is treated as seriously in a court of law as physical cheating. With the expansion of understanding of other cultures, there is a wide spectrum of what cheating means. When in a committed relationship, the definition of cheating is based on both parties opinions and both parties may redefine their understanding to match the party at an either lower or higher extreme of this definition. Some couples simply believe that cheating constitutes doing anything, whether verbal or physical, that one would not do in front of their significant other. Such examples would include: expressing attraction to another person, electronic communications, kissing, making out, and sexual relations.

Many people consider cheating to be any violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of a relationship, which may or may not include sexual monogamy. For example, in some polyamorous relationships, the concepts of commitment and fidelity do not necessarily hinge on complete sexual or emotional monogamy. Whether polyamorous or monogamous, the boundaries to which people agree vary widely, and sometimes these boundaries evolve within each relationship.

[KenC]

Olga,
Very good post.

I divorced my first (AW) wife for being unfaithful (cheating).  Proof of fornication was not necessary.  The judge took the stance you outlined here:

Many people consider cheating to be any violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of a relationship

My ex mistakenly thought that if fornication could not be proved, she would not suffer any dire consequences.  Although, her actions would not impact the actual divorce, they did severely curtail the eventual splitting of the assets and the term of her alimony which was left up to the discretion of the judge.  She paid a very high monetary price for her "cheating" even though sex was never proven.  Proof of sex was never even an issue in court BTW.
KenC

[OlgaH]

Reasons for Extramarital Affairs

Reasons for Extramarital Affairs

    * Inability to cope with cultural or ethnic differences.
    * Disappointment that one partner hasn’t grown in the same ways.
    * Unrealistic expectations about marriage.
    * Sexual curiosity.
    * Lost sense of fun and excitement in the marriage.
    * Sexual addiction.
    * Inability to accommodate a partner’s needs, interests or expectations.
    * Inability to communicate one’s own interests, needs or desires.
    * Boredom with the marriage, work, life, the relationship, or the routine.
    * Lack of verbal skills or motivation to solve marriage problems together.

Do Men and Women Have Different Reasons for Extramarital Affairs?

Women may look for more emotional involvement when they’re involved in marital infidelity. “Men and women often seek different things when they become involved in extramarital activity,” writes Dr Lusterman in Infidelity: A Survival Guide. “…women are more likely to link sex with love, while men’s involvements are more often primarily sexual.” Why men cheat may involve more physical reasons.

Dr Lusterman points out that this isn’t true for all men and women. In other words, not all women are looking for emotional attachments as part of their reason for extramarital affairs. Similarly, not all men are looking to satisfy a sexual addiction or physical need as part of their reasons for extramarital affairs.

Knowing the individual’s unique reasons for extramarital affairs will help with dealing with infidelity.

Dr.Julia A. Boyd, Family Practice :" "Normally, women don't cheat for cheating's sake, but rather in response to an emotional need that has not been met."

According to a recent  "Lust, Love & Loyalty Survey," the primary reasons marrieds stray are far more impalpable: feelings of discontent and disappointment. Men cheat because they are dissatisfied (sexually or otherwise) with their relationship, while the most common reason women cheat is they feel emotionally deprived. Simply, the affair fills a void.

Not all affairs are created equal. In fact, Ofer Zur, PhD, a psychologist from Sonoma, CA, has outlined  a dozen reasons why people cheat, none of which are just about "the sex." His laundry list includes conflict or intimacy avoidance, pay-back, mid-life, empty-nest or other types of individual crisis -- not to mention plain curiosity. "Affairs are often about self-expression and not always a reflection of a bad marriage."

http://www.aolhealth.com/healthy-living/relationships/cheating-love-sex-or-thrill

Men tend to cheat largely for physical or sexual reasons, while women cheat for emotional reasons. There are several studies on infidelity that bear that out. One study, in particular, found that 75% to 80% of the men who admitted to having extramarital affairs said that sex was the primary reason. Only 20% of the women who were having extramarital affairs said they did so for purely sexual reasons

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/40352

[WmGO]

So I'd say that sex, as a tool for re-establishing a wobbling relationship, may work only in certain cases and, to be quite frank, IMPO only with the more "animal-minded" among us . Sex is only a portion, albeit important, of any male-female relationship, there are also a host of other factors that, depending on the specific individual(s), may be equally, or more, important.

Good bottom line summary of the reality of male-female relations.

[WmGO]

Ken, the main act in cheating is sex. It's physical, not emotional.

Billy, I understand where you are coming from, and agree
that the *main* act of infidelity is the sex act BUT, cheating
like all sin originates in the heart. A *decision* (for whatever reason)
has been made in the person's *heart* to be unfaithful. It may then at
first only (or only) lead to emotional or verbal infidelity with someone not one's
spouse, but that is still a part of "cheating". The sex act is just following
through, and yes absolutely the most reprehensible and unequivocal aspect
of cheating [and yes the definition of adultery is limited to the sex act part]........However, anything that violates the principles of primacy and exclusivity is a type of cheating, even if it is just in the heart/mind and there is
not an overt act of cheating. And  *any* overt act whether it be emotional,
verbal or "innocent" touching" (like rubbing shoulders etc.) without sex is
also cheating.

[steviej]

RW are by nature skeptical and suspicious.  As time goes by, her concerns about her future life (or him) are not addressed.  True love and trust do not build to the level that would overcome any doubt. 

Iinteresting observation. My wife is skeptical and suspicious by nature. It has opened my Western Protestant eyes about things on several occasions. We purchased UV blocking window film for our cars. She insisted that "how do you know you bought anything except clear plastic?". Well, I felt certain, you know, this is 3M company, big great company, know what theyare doing etc ... But I became curious and bought a good UV meter. The film is advertised as blocking 99% of UV. The measuremenst? 96% !! I took it back, got my money back, got a better film installed for free (which I verified) which works to spec. Another time I purchased the "leather seat package" for our new car. She inspected the leather throughout the car VERY carefully. I thought it was humorous. But then she announces that only the front face of the seats is leather. Everything else is vinyl. I was like, really ?? So back to the dealer, some indepth conversations, calls to Toyota distribution, and guess what? Only the face of the seats is leather. Got a big rebate on that too!! All because of my pretty RW !!

However, about marriage, I am sure a RW will be evaluating things in parallel with the romance, right down to the wire, and not taking anything for granted. The AMs may not understant this about them

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott, it's simple and clear in any mainstream dictionary anyone can google. Cheating is Sexual unfaithfulness. Sexual is an act of Sex and that is performed, not a feeling of emotion. It seems a lot of people want to diminish how bad cheating is when it's done by a woman. To say it's emotion will get people's sympathy since her man is not fullfilling her needs instead of rightful criticism for her dirty deeds. Does anybody care to honor wedding vows "for better or worse"? Maybe a lot of people get cold feet before marriage because they can't handle whatever bad their current partner has forever in marriage. Once in marriage, wedding vows should apply.

There you go making up stuff again. Ken, I've been rather calm and nice considering the false allegations, that haven't been retracted, made to ridicule/make me look bad.

Okay, BillyB, I think it's time for you to offer a retraction and an apology to both KenC and I.  First, you claimed that the "official" definition of cheating is purely sexual.  When I asked you to provide your reference, you respond with "Scott, it's simple and clear in any mainstream dictionary anyone can google. Cheating is Sexual unfaithfulness"  No reference as requested.  In response, Olga has come up with some dictionary definitions that very clearly show that you are wrong.  Cheating being purely sexual is YOUR definition, not mine or, it seems, anyone elses's here.

Next, you are accusing KenC and I of having bad memories and of making false accusations against you.  First, let's see the "accusations":

I wrote: "I've noticed that you focus a lot on sexual prowess or the lack thereof as an extremely important factor in winning and keeping a woman, citing this as one of your strengths."

KenC wrote: "I know you seem to be proud of your sexual prowess, and that's great, but if you do not fulfill your woman's intimate emotional needs, she WILL go looking for that,  And THAT doesn't come in a box with batteries."

Your response was: "Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time yet many here think I'm focused on sex alone. Go figure? They have bad memories or ignore the many times I've spoken about how to treat a woman, how to act in front of her, being faithful, fulfilling her needs, how to better your own life for the benefit of your lady, and how to win her over without material possessions. Why do they forget or ignore? Maybe for personal reasons or to make me look bad. For you newbies who believe I'm focused on sex or like to boast about owning a successful business based on what others say, read my past posts for yourself. I have reasons to be upset with false claims but my lady knows the truth and she's happy with all of me."

You challenged newbies to read your posts for themselves.  Well I did the work for them.  I didn't browse all of your posts, just enough to estabish that it was NOT "maybe one other time". Excluding your sexual comments in this thread, we have the following gems.  I don't know which annoys me more, where you boast about your sexual prowess, as in these tidbits...

"Overlook or underestimate the need for quality sex at your own risk. I take pleasing my partner very seriously."

"Personally, I'm not into phone sex but when it's time to perform live, I always try to please and give a performance to remember. One can talk the talk, but the important thing is can you walk the walk?"

"I can still give an all natural performance that last for hours! No applause please... just throw money."

"I'm not an expert at burning disks but I am an expert at making love."

"Well, you don't need fingers if you can perform miracles with your tongue."

...or I am more annoyed when you condescendingly try to give advice on good sex as in these excerpts:

"I'm not pointing any fingers but some of you guys are probably selfish lovers. You finish in 30 seconds and you're clueless on how to please your partner. If your woman isn't excited to bump, grind and exchange bodily fluids with you, then your relationship may not flourish and she may look elsewhere to take care of her needs"

"A RW would forgive a lot if you were a fantastic lover so don't underestimate the physical part of a relationship. Last longer, get flexible and do multiple positions, figure out what she likes best and give her the big O. Don't always be soft, be a bull in bed. Give her a performance to remember and she may give you lots of scratch marks you can wear with pride. You also might hear "I vant you" more often"

"But I suspect you may not be what she wants in bed. If you lit her fire, I suspect she'd still be with you. Just as your ex doesn't light your fire, you don't to your RW. Just in case, for you and all men reading this, improve your performance and endurance when making love. After you're finished, look into your woman's eyes. Is she shocked that you finished so quick, is she dissapointed at your performance, or does she look at you with eyes of admiration? You know you've done really good if she's dug her fingernails into you leaving scratch marks all over the place"

We will be waiting for your apology.

[Kuna]

Okay, BillyB, I think it's time for you to offer a retraction and an apology to both KenC and I.  First, you claimed that the "official" definition of cheating is purely sexual.  When I asked you to provide your reference, you respond with "Scott, it's simple and clear in any mainstream dictionary anyone can google. Cheating is Sexual unfaithfulness"  No reference as requested.  In response, Olga has come up with some dictionary definitions that very clearly show that you are wrong.  Cheating being purely sexual is YOUR definition, not mine or, it seems, anyone elses's here.

Next, you are accusing KenC and I of having bad memories and of making false accusations against you.  First, let's see the "accusations":

I wrote: "I've noticed that you focus a lot on sexual prowess or the lack thereof as an extremely important factor in winning and keeping a woman, citing this as one of your strengths."

KenC wrote: "I know you seem to be proud of your sexual prowess, and that's great, but if you do not fulfill your woman's intimate emotional needs, she WILL go looking for that,  And THAT doesn't come in a box with batteries."

Your response was: "Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time yet many here think I'm focused on sex alone. Go figure? They have bad memories or ignore the many times I've spoken about how to treat a woman, how to act in front of her, being faithful, fulfilling her needs, how to better your own life for the benefit of your lady, and how to win her over without material possessions. Why do they forget or ignore? Maybe for personal reasons or to make me look bad. For you newbies who believe I'm focused on sex or like to boast about owning a successful business based on what others say, read my past posts for yourself. I have reasons to be upset with false claims but my lady knows the truth and she's happy with all of me."

You challenged newbies to read your posts for themselves.  Well I did the work for them.  I didn't browse all of your posts, just enough to estabish that it was NOT "maybe one other time". Excluding your sexual comments in this thread, we have the following gems.  I don't know which annoys me more, where you boast about your sexual prowess, as in these tidbits...

"Overlook or underestimate the need for quality sex at your own risk. I take pleasing my partner very seriously."

"Personally, I'm not into phone sex but when it's time to perform live, I always try to please and give a performance to remember. One can talk the talk, but the important thing is can you walk the walk?"

"I can still give an all natural performance that last for hours! No applause please... just throw money."

"I'm not an expert at burning disks but I am an expert at making love."

"Well, you don't need fingers if you can perform miracles with your tongue."

...or I am more annoyed when you condescendingly try to give advice on good sex as in these excerpts:

"I'm not pointing any fingers but some of you guys are probably selfish lovers. You finish in 30 seconds and you're clueless on how to please your partner. If your woman isn't excited to bump, grind and exchange bodily fluids with you, then your relationship may not flourish and she may look elsewhere to take care of her needs"

"A RW would forgive a lot if you were a fantastic lover so don't underestimate the physical part of a relationship. Last longer, get flexible and do multiple positions, figure out what she likes best and give her the big O. Don't always be soft, be a bull in bed. Give her a performance to remember and she may give you lots of scratch marks you can wear with pride. You also might hear "I vant you" more often"

"But I suspect you may not be what she wants in bed. If you lit her fire, I suspect she'd still be with you. Just as your ex doesn't light your fire, you don't to your RW. Just in case, for you and all men reading this, improve your performance and endurance when making love. After you're finished, look into your woman's eyes. Is she shocked that you finished so quick, is she dissapointed at your performance, or does she look at you with eyes of admiration? You know you've done really good if she's dug her fingernails into you leaving scratch marks all over the place"

We will be waiting for your apology.

      

Classic post....  very very funny...  and a little sickening too!   

[av8or1]

Hey gang,

Well as a named player in several of the posts in this thread, I thought I'd chime in with a reply of my own.  Don't know how insightful it will be but I have no doubt that the folk out there will make comment.  Some better than others.

I won't even address the issue of sex that has been raised in this thread, I find it offensive and laughable.  For me personally if things in that department weren't in good shape, the relationship with any woman (AW, RW, whatever) wouldn't last long.  So, 'nuff said.

Ok, I have given a little thought to Gator's assertions/raised issues.  They're basically the notion that a Western man can fool himself into thinking that a FSUW is more into him than she is and then there's the concept of the "recent evolution" (if you will) of the modern RW/UW that has developed in accordance with a parallel evolution in the standars of life in the FSU.  Is that correct Gator?  I think someone else mentioned the notion of the man not putting enough effort into the relations to keep the woman feeling secure.  Correct?

Assuming so, I can only speak about my situations with any real clarity, so I will limit my comments to them.  First, the issue of fooling myself:

Well ... I guess it's possible gang.  Who the heck knows.  However, in both of the cases of "cold feet" that I have encountered, if that was indeed the case, ergo the woman had "luke warm feet" at best, then I'd have to nominate both of these women for an Oscar.  They certainly gave no indication whatsoever that there was any doubt in their minds regarding building a future with me.  This virtually brings up a side-issue of whether or not a FSUW is a good actress.  I have heard many a men in my years of doing this stake that claim.  However, I won't go there 'cause I'd like to stay focused on the two issues Gator raised.  As for me, I "checked myself" several times during the course of my relationship with these two women in order to determine if I was kidding myself in terms of their level of committment to "us".  ... Well y'all I just never felt as though I was in Fairytale Land or else I would have ended things myself.  Heck, I asked BOTH women on more than one occasion if they were certain that they wanted me to file the documents and begin that process.  Both claimed to be absolutely sure.  HECK I had Olga ON THE PHONE WITH ME AS I DROVE TO THE POST OFFICE TO MAIL THE I-129F TO THE USCIS!  I tried to reassure her, to make her feel comfortable, to talk to her, to give her an opportunity to say "no" while at the same time confirming my own resolution (to the maximum level I could without seeming "pressuring") as I was driving.  Nothing changed.  Not until the 11th hour.  Several people have reminded me of the issue of something "only becoming 'real' just as you are about to do it and not one minute before" ... dunno, maybe it has an application here.  I'll leave that open for debate.

Moving on to the second issue of the general better economy in Russia and the lack of a FSUW settling for a foreign man just to have "a better life."  Funny that y'all brought THIS one up!  Both of my fiancees made reference to this VERY concept.  And BOTH said that they could have "a good life in (Belarus/Russia)."  They said that they didn't need the USA (or the West in general) and didn't care about having "a better life."  I always thought that their statements were a good thing, meaning that I had at least some "security" in that they were dating me FOR ME and not for "the West."  This also provided confirmation in my "self checking" efforts mentioned in the previous paragraph.  So ... I dunno how this issue applies to my two cases of "cold feet" to be open about it.  Maybe the fact that they could have an ok life in their own country was a factor in their decision.  Who knows, I sure don't, and they certainly didn't mention anything like that when they ended our engagement.  However it just seems like a stretch to me somehow; if they felt and believed what they said, then why in the heck did they go out with me in the first place?  Doesn't make sense.  I dunno gang, I think I'll punt on this one.  Maybe I SHOULD find a woman who wants to leave the FSU for the West this next time!  Hahahaha!  K-I-D-D-I-N-G.  No way in hell.

Then there's the issue of the guy putting in effort.  In a way this statement hacks me off.  Shouldn't it be BOTH people putting in effort???  'Course that's my Western influences kicking in kinda, along with some feelings of wasted effort/begin jilted.  As I have mentioned already, when I look back on what happened - in both instances - I cannot imagine what else I could have done.  I called them both everyday.  I told them how I felt. (and NO, don't any of you start talking about being a pushover, that wasn't the case here)  I asked them how they were; how their families were; how their jobs were; how their life was in general.  Diana (Belorussian woman) knew English quite well, so there was no need for lessons.  Olga knew little in the beginning so I paid for English lessons.  Diana drove an Opel and had a license.  No need for lessons there either.  Olga hadn't sat behind the wheel of anything.  So I paid for her driving lessons.  I brought both of them new luggage during my visits and left it with them so that they could have an easier time bringing their possessions to the USA.  I told Diana that I would pay to have DHL ship her personal favorite sewing machine so that she could continue to make jumpers and such, which was one of her interests.  I told Olga that anything she couldn't fit into the luggage we would ship with DHL also.  Diana was very concerned about leaving her mother in Belarus.  I told her that within the shortest time my government would allow we would bring her mother to live with us.  Olga had the same concerns, 'told her the same thing.  Told both women what my exact salary and debt ratio was, both were impressed that I had no debt, as they had both been told about how many Americans have so much debt.  Olga had to have the credit system explained to her, which I did, Diana dealt in International business stuff so she knew all about it.  I sent them gifts faithfully on all occasions, birthdays, women's day, valentine's day, and just for no reason...

Ok 'nuff.  You get the point.  If you'll allow me a moment to get a little "corny" here: if you've ever seen the movie "Friday Night Lights", towards the end the coach explains to his team what "being perfect" means.  Well, that's the TEXAS way, at least it is for anyone who was born and raised here and taught those kinds of values.  It's C-O-R-N-Y as hell to be talking about this, I know, but bare with me: that is how I live my life.  I never want to look back and wonder "what if?"  What if I tried just a little harder, would that have made the difference?  Well gang, not in my case because I don't know how I could have tried any harder without being a weirdo/lameo/stalker kinda guy.

In the end gang, I think that this whole "Epidemic of Cold Feet" comes down to the fact that for whatever reason the woman just could not leave her country.  I think in both cases there was pressure from family and friends and I also think there was another man, possibly introduced via those same family and friends.  There were just too many things keeping her there and let's face it, when it comes to those things, we foreigners will lose.  Everytime.  Don't let anyone tell you any different either.  You will L-O-S-E.  The FSUW who will actually come to a foreign country to marry with her foreign man is a "special kind" of FSUW, and by "special" I don't mean the kind of uniquess we ALL apply to our beloved ones, I mean that there are certain attributes to her personality, her circumstances in life, her overriding life goals and her willingness to accept a foreign culture into her life.  The FSUW who have these qualities that are in correct alignment "enough" to actually make the leap across the pond "come in various shapes and sizes", so you cannot narrow it down to a type of profession, geographical location (big city versus small city/village argument - I HATE that cr@p), familial background or educational level/religious beliefs.

Nope, only broad, brush-stroke type of loosely-formed, blindingly opaque generalizations or heuristics can be applied to the FSUW you are courting.  Notions such as "older is generally more mature and more stable" and the like come to mind.  However so many exceptions exist that, again, these heuristics fail as much as they succeed.  As Gary Sinese said regarding his participation in the blockbuster "Forrest Gump", "...destiny is a crapshoot."  So is dating in the FSU or anywhere else for that matter, they all have their own peculiarities (so don't anyone keep talking about how the FSU is "unique" enough to be "different" cause you can make that same argument about ANY country, any culture).

Yeah, I'll go with that.  Finding your partner in this world is a crapshoot.  I like that.

OK OK OK

All of this having been said, and I do mean ALL OF IT (sorry for the length), there are a few things I'd like to throw out there for others to beat around.  These are random observations, for which I will make NO COMMENTARY AT THIS TIME (or even later on probably), of things that BOTH Diana and Olga said and/or did during our relations and their subsequent "Epidemic of Cold Feet":

1) "Russia/Belorussia is the greatest country on Earth"
2) "Money is not important"
3) "Money is important"
4) "Love is most important"
5) "Love is only part of marriage"
6) "Man must be smart"
7) "Man is so stupid"
Both smiled and told me how happy they were when I showed leadership and strength "as my man" only to later on tell me how they resented me "being so strong man"
9) "I don't listen to mama, I make my own decisions"
10) "I will wait for you no matter how long"
11) "How much longer until documents are approved?"
12) I caught both in a lie, Diana more than once.
13) Neither asked for "an allowance".
14) Both said that they wanted to "make family soon".
15) "I like to be quiet Jeddy, it is normal for Russia", then blab on for days. (which I didn't mind)

Don't know where I was going with that, so I'll stop.  Point is that one of my "new blind-as-a-bat" heuristics will be to see just how much pride the woman has in her country.  Both Diana and Olga spoke about Russia in such glowing terms and with such frequency that when I look back on it now, perhaps it should have been a red flag.  Dunno.  I DID ask them about this issue, "can you live in a country other than your beloved Russia/Belorussia?" I would ask.  "Oh yes Jeddy, not a problem."  Hmmmmmm...maybe find an orphan woman too this time. ;-)  Hahahaha!

Ok, I'm tired of typing.  Y'all take care.

Jerry

[DKMM]

Jerry,

Excellent post, one of the best I've read in a while, although I admit I don't come around as much as I used to.   

I'm absolutely certain that you aren't the only one whose dealt with this. 

Sure they love their countries but nobody could be that foolish to think its a better country to live in than America.  Nobody who has been to both countries thinks that unless maybe they have a lot of money.  Especially Belarus, are you kidding me?

My ex did all that you describe and more, especially near the end when she just couldn't stand the thought of leaving her country and family behind or so I thought...  But now that she's been begging me back for 4 months straight I realize it was all about her connection to me.  And that's her own fault for not realizing what she had till I was gone...

The bottom line is, if you don't have the time and money to keep the fire burning, you will have a hard time making this work as you wait for the visa. Majority opinion on here states that you are supposed to spend longer in the courtship phase to develop that bond that will see you through the 8 month K-1 process.  I agree.

However, in my current case I'm putting together a visa for a girl after only 2 months of courtship but its because she's done everything but drop an anvil on my head to make me realize she wants to be with me more than anything.  It was all about finding a good girl who wants to get married and going from there.  Yeah she's already depressed by the thought of leaving everyone behind but she doesn't doubt her choice at all.