Epidemic of Cold Feet

[av8or1]

I would agree with the notion of not thinking things through to their final conclusion, which is a life in a new country for a FSUW.  I don't believe that either Diana or Olga did that.  I would also agree with the maturity issue, at least WRT Olga anyway.  Diana was older, though still a little immature at times.  Well I should say "insecure" rather than immature in Diana's case, but in a way that's kinda 6-in-one-half-dozen-in-another.  Neither showed enough immaturity to warrant significant concern during the course of the relationship however.  If they had, I certainly would not have filed the paperwork.  It was only in the end that this monster reared its ugly head.  Y'all, these women did and said things that I never thought them capable of, I sheet you not.  It was simply unbelievable.  They both said "I changed."  Why, what from and what to, and the origin of that change will remain a mystery forever.

It's also true that FSUW join agencies for many different reasons.  Some of those reasons are more "wholesome" than others.  I didn't meet Diana through an agency, ironically, it was via direct email.  So you can't start talking to me about how bad agency women are, I have too much experience that will oppose any argument like that.  Good and bad can be found anywhere.  Olga joined LTP, so she said anyway, as another means to meet her husband.  However, she also said that she didn't take the agency seriously because she didn't think that it was possible to meet a foreign man whom she would be interested in dating.

As for Ooooooops' assertion that a woman not being able to leave her country is just a ruse to make the man feel better, I think that some credence can be given to that notion.  In my cases however, I don't think it applies much because of Diana and Olga's strong alignment with all things Russian/Belorussian and their subsequent refusal to ever date a foreign man again.  If either did do that, then I'd be inclined to go more with the "can't leave my country" == "it's not you, it's me" thing.  So for me it's more of a case-by-case basis.

KenC, well I can understand what you are saying about someone being "into" something being somewhat subjective.  But I think you missed my point regarding personality: to put it simply, I believe that a woman who can come here has, somewhere inside her, the ability to tolerate/accept-to-some-degree life in a foreign country.  I believe that your wife amongst others has this attribute.  Diana and Olga did not have it.  And that is my point.

Take care,

Jerry

[LiveFromUkraine]

Most of the people I have encountered here don't even think about things until they are a reality.  This may be the case for these women who are registering in agencies.  They may entertain the idea but not really think it through because the opportunity isn't there.  Until that becomes a reality will they really start to understand if they are capable of moving or not.

We are preparing to leave for the states tomorrow.  I have asked Sveta how she feels and she just says it won't be real until she is on that plane.  Luckily she does not have cold feet.  lol



Thomas

[msmoby_ru]

Olga,
Very good post.

I divorced my first (AW) wife for being unfaithful (cheating).  Proof of fornication was not necessary.   She paid a very high monetary price for her "cheating" even though sex was never proven.  Proof of sex was never even an issue in court BTW.
KenC

Goodness... Divorce in England in Wales doesn't dwell on fault.. one can simply state on the application form the grounds for filing as : "unreasonable behaviour"..

The Court/ Judge aren't interested in "fault" for marital breakdowns, in deciding the splitting of assets - if the respondent and applicant can't can't agree.. Should it be relevant..? I think not ..

[KenC]

KenC, isn't easier to practice English skills on forums or ICQ or something?    Why join marriage agency and give false hopes to somebody?   

Oops,
Ten years ago, access to computers was not as readily available as they are today in Russia.  Besides, Lena was more interested in her conversational English than her written English skills.  In the end, it really wasn't much of a deception as she did meet a man from America that she did marry, now is it?
KenC

[KenC]

Most of the people I have encountered here don't even think about things until they are a reality.  This may be the case for these women who are registering in agencies.  They may entertain the idea but not really think it through because the opportunity isn't there.  Until that becomes a reality will they really start to understand if they are capable of moving or not.

We are preparing to leave for the states tomorrow.  I have asked Sveta how she feels and she just says it won't be real until she is on that plane.  Luckily she does not have cold feet.  lol



Thomas

Thomas,
I have to say that I certainly didn't think things through to their conclusion the day I first phoned Lena either!  Nor did I ever consider all the possible ramifications of my going to meet Lena for the first time.  I just kind of went with the flow and was playing things by ear.

Let's not forget the Russian superstition of not counting on positive results either. 

Good luck on your trip!  Is this a permanent move or just a visit?
KenC

[msmoby_ru]

We are preparing to leave for the states tomorrow. 

Good luck !

[KenC]

Goodness... Divorce in England in Wales doesn't dwell on fault.. one can simply state on the application form the grounds for filing as : "unreasonable behaviour"..

The Court/ Judge aren't interested in "fault" for marital breakdowns, in deciding the splitting of assets - if the respondent and applicant can't can't agree.. Should it be relevant..? I think not ..

msmoby,
I would have to strongly disagree with your stance here.  Especially after living through the nightmare myself.  When one side is clearly at fault for the breakdown of the marriage, why should they receive anything more than the minimum allowed?  Please understand that there are only certain things left up to the discretion of the judge here.  Where as most everything else is covered by the standards of the divorce.  For example, my ex clearly received 50% of the assets as she should, as they were accumulated during our marriage.  Where the judge did have some input was in the amount and length of her alimony.  This is where the judge could have easily given her a lifetime alimony award but instead only gave her 7 years.  I am sure that she would have received a lifetime alimony had the breakdown of the marriage been a more shared fault.  IMO, she got more than she deserved.
KenC

[groovlstk]

I believe that Russian/Ukrainian attitudes towards the US have shifted drastically in the last five years, and this is certainly having an affect on women who are already nervous about leaving their homeland.

When my wife and I got engaged she was subjected to all sorts of misinformation about the US from colleagues and clients. No matter how much I reassured her during those months when we were waiting for her visa interview, in the back of her mind there was always a tiny bit of doubt until she arrived and was able to judge things for herself.

Most annoying were Russians who'd visited or lived in the US for a time and saw themselves as subject matter experts. Most spent all their time in depressed enclaves like Brighton Beach and warned my wife that a life of poverty awaited her in NYC, that all Americans were greedy, lacked big souls like Russian people had, etc. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

I strongly suspect a RW would leave their man if he wasn't a good lover. She will accept a better lover over one who's got more money, a great guy but is terrible in bed.

I'm not pointing any fingers but some of you guys are probably selfish lovers. You finish in 30 seconds and you're clueless on how to please your partner. If your woman isn't excited to bump, grind and exchange bodily fluids with you, then your relationship may not flourish and she may look elsewhere to take care of her needs. Of course this is wrong. Her commitment to her man should be honored but if she must seek someone else to pursue a complete relationship, mentally and physically, she should break off the current commitment before going out with other men.

A RW would forgive a lot if you were a fantastic lover so don't underestimate the physical part of a relationship. Last longer, get flexible and do multiple positions, figure out what she likes best and give her the big O. Don't always be soft, be a bull in bed. Give her a performance to remember and she may give you lots of scratch marks you can wear with pride. You also might hear "I vant you" more often.

  I can't believe i stumbled across this 'jewel'.  Very nice starting of the day....hehe...

But you know, sereously speaking, (if i had a choice) I will always choose a guy who has saved more and has all the necessary finances to do this but who is not so good in bed over a man who doesn't but is a good lover........One can teach his/her partner much faster than he can change his thinking and life style and earn all that money...  .......

[AnastassiaAsh]

Billy, I understand where you are coming from, and agree
that the *main* act of infidelity is the sex act BUT, cheating
like all sin originates in the heart. A *decision* (for whatever reason)
has been made in the person's *heart* to be unfaithful. It may then at
first only (or only) lead to emotional or verbal infidelity with someone not one's
spouse, but that is still a part of "cheating". The sex act is just following
through, and yes absolutely the most reprehensible and unequivocal aspect
of cheating [and yes the definition of adultery is limited to the sex act part]........However, anything that violates the principles of primacy and exclusivity is a type of cheating, even if it is just in the heart/mind and there is
not an overt act of cheating. And  *any* overt act whether it be emotional,
verbal or "innocent" touching" (like rubbing shoulders etc.) without sex is
also cheating.

Agree!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Thomas,
I have to say that I certainly didn't think things through to their conclusion the day I first phoned Lena either!  Nor did I ever consider all the possible ramifications of my going to meet Lena for the first time.  I just kind of went with the flow and was playing things by ear.

Let's not forget the Russian superstition of not counting on positive results either. 

Good luck on your trip!  Is this a permanent move or just a visit?
KenC

Yeah, I understand you completely.  I know the feeling in fact.  The thing about most men is they didn't have to move to another country, make new friends, learn a new language, figure out the career and so on.   Well, technically I did that.  lol

I haven't forgotten the superstitions. Sveta isn't really supersititous but her brother is and I have learned a lot from hanging out with him.  Great guy in fact.


This trip is permanent and we both are so looking forward to it.   
Most likely we will relocate to the Phoenix area once we spend some time in Michigan.


Thomas

[BillyB]

But instead of being hard headed or defensive (since you are under attack from so many directions) just realize that there is also a more expansive definition of "cheating". That more expansive definition has been elaborated upon by me, Olga and others.

Actually I'm perplexed on how others are reacting. I've already acknowledged emotion can play a part in cheating but many continue to debate me and don't acknowledged the dictionary and even ignore it when debating. ken who, more than anybody, uses the dictionary to point out definitions to people he's debated has not acknowledged the dictionary. I know Olga has Googled and had not found mainstream dictionary that says cheating is emotional but I know she's read the list the sites I'm talking about but chooses not to list them here which is understandable, and I got Scott listing all kinds of quotes implying I've talked about the importance of sex many times when in fact most serious quotes of mine are coming from this thread and the other quotes are made in fun. I suspect Scott spent time looking for statements of me boasting about a successful business I own too but found nothing. I'm not the first guy he's done this to. He's done it to others and few months ago he had disagreements with Ken and said he was going to look for hypocritical stuff on him. He has a hard time remembering anything good people say.

WmGO, I suspect you have a strong faith in God based on your pasts posts. I admire you for that. Technically if a man and woman look at another in lust, he/she is committing adultery or cheating but I'm not debating with the Bible, personal opinion, or what some psychologists say. I'm trying to use a dictionary that is pretty clear. Sometimes when you give your opinion on subjects here with a touch of your faith added, I notice others get offended because they don't subscribe to the same book you do. I wouldn't tell you there's a more expansive defintion of what morals and values are or "what is considered life" when it comes to abortion. Are you flexible when it comes to those issues? I know exactly why you believe the way you do and set in your ways just the way I am pertaining to those issues. But we're not in a church or in psychology class and I wouldn't debating my religious point of view in front of those who are not religious. With the mix of people here, I think I was fair using the dictionary which is universally accepted when comes to the meaning of words.

As far as me being hard headed and defensive, it's more like irritated and disappointed. Seeing people who disagree using laughing cartoons/smileys not at jokes but at the person they disagree with and digging for dirt. I'm not just talking in this thread but in others too. I'm not sure everyone is an adult here. Well..., since I disagree with you WmGO on the meaning of cheating, I'll state you don't know what you're talking about and I'm going to come back here with some of the worst things you've ever said, even if it was a joke, to show people what a bad guy you are.    

[mspanky]

I can't believe i stumbled across this 'jewel'.  Very nice starting of the day....hehe...

But you know, sereously speaking, (if i had a choice) I will always choose a guy who has saved more and has all the necessary finances to do this but who is not so good in bed over a man who doesn't but is a good lover........One can teach his/her partner much faster than he can change his thinking and life style and earn all that money...  .......

 Ana,

 I agree. Finance is very important to most women as they will be raising a family. I know a Siberian girl who married a 41 year old AM at 19. I'm sure she was sincere with her choice initially. But to expect a beautiful girl her age to be satisfied with the life he offered her was unrealistic. The gal would have been better off with a guy her age as the husband had tons of baggage. 3 kids to pay child support for. The youngest being 2 years old. He also had previous debts such as credit cards and loans.

  Meanwhile, his rather plain American wife remarries a sucker who is better educated and makes more money than her ex. I bet  the young Siberian girl must have felt like crap to see the ex living in a better house, driving a better car and only working part-time. Meanwhile the new wife has to work full time to help pay the bills, drive a crap car and can't have a baby till the AM is out of debt(lord knows when that would have happened). but they couldn't afford  for her not to work.

   So a while back she meet a man who is younger than her husband, makes more money AND has no kids.I can't blame the girl for leaving. How can a man really expect a woman who has so much going for her to settle for so little. Men want a hot woman. A hot woman wants  a man who's financially secure and it's not difficult for her to get that. The choice for a beautiful women is never just a so-so man with money or a stud without. But there are plenty of men with both for her to choose from. Most women want to provide their future children with a comfortable life. Struggling or having to put your kids in daycare because you do not have the luxury of staying home to raise them is very hard on many women. Many will come to resent their husbands if he cannot provide that.Even AW are happy to stay home with a baby the first few years.

[KenC]

Actually I'm perplexed on how others are reacting. I've already acknowledged emotion can play a part in cheating but many continue to debate me and don't acknowledged the dictionary and even ignore it when debating. ken who, more than anybody, uses the dictionary to point out definitions to people he's debated has not acknowledged the dictionary. I know Olga has Googled and had not found mainstream dictionary that says cheating is emotional but I know she's read the list the sites I'm talking about but chooses not to list them here which is understandable, and I got Scott listing all kinds of quotes implying I've talked about the importance of sex many times when in fact most serious quotes of mine are coming from this thread and the other quotes are made in fun. I suspect Scott spent time looking for statements of me boasting about a successful business I own too but found nothing. I'm not the first guy he's done this to. He's done it to others and few months ago he had disagreements with Ken and said he was going to look for hypocritical stuff on him. He has a hard time remembering anything good people say.

WmGO, I suspect you have a strong faith in God based on your pasts posts. I admire you for that. Technically if a man and woman look at another in lust, he/she is committing adultery or cheating but I'm not debating with the Bible, personal opinion, or what some psychologists say. I'm trying to use a dictionary that is pretty clear. Sometimes when you give your opinion on subjects here with a touch of your faith added, I notice others get offended because they don't subscribe to the same book you do. I wouldn't tell you there's a more expansive defintion of what morals and values are or "what is considered life" when it comes to abortion. Are you flexible when it comes to those issues? I know exactly why you believe the way you do and set in your ways just the way I am pertaining to those issues. But we're not in a church or in psychology class and I wouldn't debating my religious point of view in front of those who are not religious. With the mix of people here, I think I was fair using the dictionary which is universally accepted when comes to the meaning of words.

As far as me being hard headed and defensive, it's more like irritated and disappointed. Seeing people who disagree using laughing cartoons/smileys not at jokes but at the person they disagree with and digging for dirt. I'm not just talking in this thread but in others too. I'm not sure everyone is an adult here. Well..., since I disagree with you WmGO on the meaning of cheating, I'll state you don't know what you're talking about and I'm going to come back here with some of the worst things you've ever said, even if it was a joke, to show people what a bad guy you are.    

Billy,
You gave your opinion very early on in this thread and MOST people here disagreed with it.  Let it go now please.  There are some very important points being made in this thread that will prove useful to the newbies.  Let's not sidetrack it any more with nonsense, OK?
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Actually I'm perplexed on how others are reacting. I've already acknowledged emotion can play a part in cheating but many continue to debate me and don't acknowledged the dictionary and even ignore it when debating. ken who, more than anybody, uses the dictionary to point out definitions to people he's debated has not acknowledged the dictionary. I know Olga has Googled and had not found mainstream dictionary that says cheating is emotional but I know she's read the list the sites I'm talking about but chooses not to list them here which is understandable, and I got Scott listing all kinds of quotes implying I've talked about the importance of sex many times when in fact most serious quotes of mine are coming from this thread and the other quotes are made in fun. I suspect Scott spent time looking for statements of me boasting about a successful business I own too but found nothing. I'm not the first guy he's done this to. He's done it to others and few months ago he had disagreements with Ken and said he was going to look for hypocritical stuff on him. He has a hard time remembering anything good people say.

BillyB, perhaps you're perplexed at how others are reacting because you didn't expect anyone to actually challenge you to show references or provide facts in dispute of your comments, or perhaps you didn't expect someone to react when you accused them of having short memories and making false accusations against you.  You're following your typical pattern of ignoring what you can't answer, refusing to admit your error in the face of clear evidence otherwise diverting the subject and claiming that you are being victimized.

Okay, BillyB, for the third time (or is it the fourth), SHOW US THE DICTIONARY REFERENCE THAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ACKNOWLEDGING and if you can, show us how it is more authoritative than those dictionaries and references Olga has cited.  What list of cites are you talking about that Olga is ignoring?  I didn't see you make any list.  to say that she is purposely ignoring these (whatever they are) in some misleading way to purposely join in the "get BillyB" brigade is an insult to her.


I take seriously, as I know KenC does also, when someone makes false statements or accusations against me.  Are you still refusing, in the face of all the facts, to admit that you were wrong to accuse us of having short memories and making false accusations?  That's another direct question, by the way.

Now I want to address what you wrote here: "...and I got Scott listing all kinds of quotes implying I've talked about the importance of sex many times when in fact most serious quotes of mine are coming from this thread and the other quotes are made in fun."

I don't see any "implying" going on here at all.  Your quotes speak for themselves.  I asked you to reference the quotes I listed and show where I might have taken them out of context and you failed to do that also.  You need to give the readers here a reason to believe what you say over what I have said and you haven't done that. While a couple of them are joking quips, in the majority of them you seem quite serious.  Which ones of those I cited in your opinion weren't serious? Even if all of them were only joking, I can't think of anyone here who brags about such things as much as you or tries to give sexual advice as much as you with the possible exception of Pike and Albert.  Just try to find one quote by either myself or KenC that does this.  It must be pretty important to you.  That's what both myself and KenC noted that you took exception to.  Your response was to make the accusations and say this:

"Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time".

This was your rationale for making the accusations and it has been clearly proven wrong.  Maybe one other time?? Do you agree or disagree? that this statement was wrong. (another direct question)

This was an interesting attempt to divert the subject by making it my fault that I happened to find the quotes that proved you wrong and trying to get the fous away from you and onto me:

"He's done it to others and few months ago he had disagreements with Ken and said he was going to look for hypocritical stuff on him. He has a hard time remembering anything good people say."

In response, just go back and read what I wrote about KenC after this search.

I don't continue to debate you over the definition of cheating.  You lost that one a long time ago.  Why I continue to write is because I have been falsely accused of something and expect an apology.  Along the way you have also made accusations against KenC and Olga and have tried to bring my wife into the discussion which is REALLY poor manners.

BillyB, if what you are trying to do is protect your manhood, you need to understand that recognizing when you are wrong and apologizing makes one more of a man, not less.

[KenC]

Scott,
I am going to ask you too to let it go now.  You made your points crystal clear even if Billy does not agree.  There has been more than enough other opinions supported by facts and professional opinions for the audience to understand who is credible and who is not.  There are small minds in this world that cannot be changed with any amount of facts, logic or reputable sources.  Just let it go now, please.
KenC

[BillyB]

Let's not sidetrack it any more with nonsense, OK?

OK, and that nonsense includes laughing at people you disagree with, digging up dirt and making accusations and hopefully from now on debating topics will go a lot smoother.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,
I am going to ask you too to let it go now.  You made your points crystal clear even if Billy does not agree.  There has been more than enough other opinions supported by facts and professional opinions for the audience to understand who is credible and who is not.  There are small minds in this world that cannot be changed with any amount of facts, logic or reputable sources.  Just let it go now, please.
KenC

KenC,  I think you are right.  BillyB will never answer my direct questons, will never apologize and will continue to ignore the facts so this whole exercise is pointless.  I think the others who have read this thread already have formed their opinions.

[BC]

KenC,  I think you are right.  BillyB will never answer my direct questons, will never apologize and will continue to ignore the facts so this whole exercise is pointless.  I think the others who have read this thread already have formed their opinions.

Yeah, I for one that won't read the other 7 pages of this thread..

Really, nothing personal directed at anyone.

Ain't been there, ain't doing that!

 

[KenC]

OK, and that nonsense includes laughing at people you disagree with, digging up dirt and making accusations and hopefully from now on debating topics will go a lot smoother.

OK BillyB,
You just can't let it be, now can you?  Your little insecurities will not allow you to walk away from conflict without listing a few more justifications for your behavior.

Laughing at other people's opinions  The crap you posted here was truly laughable, Billy.  Your ridiculous OPINION that if Jerry or George were as studly as you in bed with their women, they would still be together is OUTRAGOUSLY FUNNY on many levels.  #1) Just how do you KNOW that Jerry or George are not superior lovers to you?  #2) Anyone that boasts about his sexual prowess on an anonymous message board surely has some insecurities in this area.  #3) You have not been able to support your ridiculous opinion with an ounce of credible substantiation.  (Kind of reminds me of Garth Brooks robbing all those banks.)

Digging up dirt  What dirt?  Your quotes that disprove your assertion that you spoke of your sexual prowess "maybe one other time"?  That's not DIRT, Billy, that is your own words proving you wrong.

Making accusations  That were proven, Billy.  What is wrong with that?

Make debating topics go smoother  Well, Billy, I do not see this as a possibility if you continue to make outrageous statements and ask inappropriate questions as you have in this thread.  There will never be smooth sailing with actions like that.

What you have done (again) is sidetrack a perfectly informative thread into your own personal soap box to play a victim when others simply do not agree with you.
KenC

(Scott- I just couldn't take my own advice after the last wisecracks from Billy)

[SANDRO43]

Since this thread has been totally side-tracked, I now have a serious question that may help in steering it back to its original course:

Is there any demonstrable psycho-physiological connection between cold feet and sex?

1. Could a lower-than-normal level of sexual activity be a decisive factor in lowering the temperature of body extremities ? Or is it viceversa ?
2. Would a potentially-eager sexual partner be totally put off when accidentally in contact with ice-cold toes ?
3. Considering their colder home-country environment, are FSUW less susceptible in this area than overweight AW in their A/C homes ? And may this be the real, unconfessed reason why AM are seeking FSUW as bed partners ?

Any contributors should corroborate their personal, and therefore subjective, opinions and deductions with proper refences to relevant articles in accredited scientific journals .   

[KenC]

Sandro,
TFF!!!
KenC

[steviej]

I believe that Russian/Ukrainian attitudes towards the US have shifted drastically in the last five years, and this is certainly having an affect on women who are already nervous about leaving their homeland.

When my wife and I got engaged she was subjected to all sorts of misinformation about the US from colleagues and clients. No matter how much I reassured her during those months when we were waiting for her visa interview, in the back of her mind there was always a tiny bit of doubt until she arrived and was able to judge things for herself.

Most annoying were Russians who'd visited or lived in the US for a time and saw themselves as subject matter experts. Most spent all their time in depressed enclaves like Brighton Beach and warned my wife that a life of poverty awaited her in NYC, that all Americans were greedy, lacked big souls like Russian people had, etc. 

During the years of the Bush administrations, the reputation of the US has fallen quite a bit on the world stage, both politically and economically. When Bush took office, we had a federal surplus. We are now the biggest debtor nation in the world. Since Buch took office the dollar has fallen by close to 40% in value (I think something like that). Since Bush took office our foreign trade imbalance (which is additional debt, in truth)  has increased by over 40%. Since Bush took office, the cost of gasoline at the pump has doubled. We have become an obvious militaristic bully and alienated many allies. We are proposing, again, to put missiles on the Russian border. The insanity of our president and our politics has definitely hurt our reputation in the world.

[Ooooops]

The insanity of our president and our politics has definitely hurt our reputation in the world.

Very much so.   We travel around the world a lot and I gotta tell you - it's getting worse and worse to be an American abroad...   

[Wienerin]

Very much so.   We travel around the world a lot and I gotta tell you - it's getting worse and worse to be an American abroad...   

Please, there's no correlation between our President and "Yankees, go home!" abroad. I've been seeing gleeful Soviet reports on how the world hates Americans, etc. as long as I can remember, certainly, since the early 50s.

How it's getting to be worse to be an American? How does opinion of not too- bright persons (irregardless of Bush,Jr. BTW) affect you... and a very unfortunate turn of the phrase, excuse me

Moreover - and this is my private opinion - we the immigrants should be much more loving and tolerant towards America than the native-born. For the same reason that we could be as disparaging and critical as hell towards Russia or Ukraine or whatever - but hit the roof when a snotty Yankee does it