Epidemic of Cold Feet

[msmoby_ru]

... no country save perhaps Britain is so openly self critical. 

Utter nonsense - how do you draw such a conclusion, please ? Have you some data to back up this assertion?!

We have an opposition press when a conservative administration has be put in.  The opposition press runs a little silent when their man/woman is in office however.  This leads to the feeling abroad that it's fine to critize America because everyone's doing it.

Can't speak for your country, but the UK media is much less politically aligned than it used to be, and the serving administration gets "a good kicking" when they make "cock ups"..

When the local press in Germany for instance, does not criticize it's government, the citizens tend to follow that lead.

 

Utter "twaddle" .. Germany has periodicals and daily's that pillory politicians for corrupt goings on, poor management and marital affairs of politicians / business leaders - irrespective of political leanings / perceived power..

  Nobody likes the idea of being out of step with the mainstream, especially in Europe, the consequences can be harsh.

 

What ARE you talking about, Ronnie?
What are these "harsh consequences" for a press organisation that criticises outside the mainstream !!??

Therefore, I suggest that besides, sour grapes, America is criticized in large part because Americans and the American press are the pathsetters for it.

May be they WERE ... if trendsetting was "Freedom of the Press"..not anymore..

Kindly look at this table re "freedom of the press" - where are the USA and UK ... ? Look at all these European countries at the top of the list, Ronnie. Even Germany is higher than our nations

FREEDOM OF THE PRESS 2008
Table of Global Press Freedom Rankings http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/fop08/FOTP2008Tables.pdf

top TEN out of 11 - European

Germany - 16th

USA - 21 st

UK / Canada - 25th

Ukraine 110th

Russia 170th

Belarus 188th

[Jumper]

Mark- good post (on the preceeding page)
Like yourself I value many places in the world to live,
Cyprus might be one!


I do understand the greek cyprats feeling as they do..anti american..?

but honestly i was living  in Greece when Turkey attacked cyprus

i was a lad there with my father who was training Greek pilots in the several squadrens of F4s we had just donated them to defend themsleves.
on that day/night few if any of the greek pilots could be found on the greek base,
, eventually found proudly drinking it up at the local cafe' toasting themselves as the very best of greek pilots for thier ability to fly "over the fence" and avoid duty.
 The greek gov. requested the US to scramble thier squadrens out of the then US airbase near Athens,,and we understanably hesistated.
the propaganda machine went into effect big time
agaisnt  the US.
(a conveneint time to do so as they had been awaiting an oppurtunity)
and US cars etc were being over turned and burned and US citizens evacuated out of
the country.
From a friendly 2 years there, to $%^& in a matter of hours over a turkisk attack
on Cyprus.
The foreign aid of the planes and support equipment and personal,, the millions poured into rehabing the harbor for trade coming out of the suez canal..
the funding and crews for the first major highway in Greece..
all forgotten instantly, because we dint become instant policemen when thier own airforce  practically refused.

I have wondered over the years when the Greek cryups think of america,if they even
know that the US, was in Greece at that time ,with millions in aid,
 and were training the greek troops and air force to defend themselves.
Its hard to imagine they got any real unbiased news
especially when the locals we lived daily with were also burning our cars and rousting us from the country overnight.. over the horrile news they were being fed.

There were no US bases in Turkey, yet there were in Greece,
but we were presented as a Turkish allie?
because we dint man the front lines? and waited for the greek military to do something we could support?

anyway-that was just a lads experience. and my own twisted perspective! LOL
later i had my own adventures in Isreal and the mideast that showed me the US media
and international media are a far cry from journalists,
 and far more a simple business,
with a  product to be sold..
 and the best stories sell the best and fastest.
and more often or not some  government is using them as a propoganda
machine.
The sad part is those stories become most peoples reality.
even though they seldom resemble the actual truth.

[msmoby_ru]

Mark- good post (on the preceeding page)
Like yourself I value many places in the world to live,
Cyprus might be one!

Thanks, AJ.

Cyprus, isn't perfect.. If you like very hot climates, in the summer, most days June to mid September ( 35C -nearly 100F) and don't mind the mainly brown landscape

You need to find oneself a good accountant / lawyer - as dealing with the civil service is SLooow... but once you're settled - fine !

One must get off the island regularly - to see REAL life

I do understand the greek cyprats feeling as they do..anti american..?

but honestly i was living  in Greece when Turkey attacked cyprus

AJ, at the time Greece had a military Junta for a govt., and it wasn't popular .. the US saw the writing on the wall.. if a democratic socialist govt came to power .... they'd be asked to leave !!

The Greek Cypriots - who were the majority on Cyprus - were led by a Christian Orthodox Archbishop - who claimed to be non aligned - but Kissinger referred to him as "the Commie in a Cassock"..

Cyprus was / is very important as it is a huge aircraft carrier near a very "sensitive" region. When  the British were giving most former colonies independence, they refused Cypriots the same.... because of the bases.

In the fifties The Archbishop ( Makarios) agreed to a campaign of resistance to the British, which escalated beyond his control - right wingers from Greece and Cyprus wanted Cyprus to be unified with Greece ( Enosis) and were prepared to kill to achieve it..  most Greek Cypriots wanted Enosis, but not using such means - they liked the British!

When the violence got worse, Greek speaking Cypriots were "ordered" not to aid the British and left their posts in the civil service... so the Brits just employed Turkish Cypriots instead.. suddenly the island's Police force was the "enemy" ... The British - determined to keep the bases opted for a "divide and rule" policy - always denied- but easily demonstrated as fact

So, two communities that had lived together, were now splitting...

The British and Cypriots did a deal.. with Greece and Turkey as "guarantors" of the Cyprus constitution / state.. In 1960 The British gave Cyprus independence, but kept 99 sq miles of territory ( Sovereign base areas ) and this is still the case - to this day.


The Independence was based on power sharing - even though the ethnic split was 80 /20 against the TCs - they had the ability to veto - and did !!!

The Turkish Cypriots leaders also had their agenda .. "Taksim" ( to divide ) splitting the island on ethnic grounds.

Within three years the power sharing govt. broke down and the GCs and TCs started polarising and villages emptied. Enclaves of TCs became the norm, with both "sides" being supplied guns from their "motherlands" of Greece and Turkey... Whilst Greece wanted "Enosis" ( union ) Turkey was keen to protect the TCs and there were several incidents were Turkey and Greece nearly went to war over Cyprus..

Turkey kept warning it would intervene - citing it's powers as guarantor - and the UK / US warned off Turkey many times.
Ships were sent to discourage a Turkish amphibian assault.

Turkey had lost it's ethnic populations in Rhodes and Crete, and it wasn't going to "allow" Greek speakers to do this in Cyprus... Greek Cypriots had plenty of clues as to what would happen if oppression of TCs by extremists was allowed to continue and ignored the signs..

In July 1974 the unpopular Greece Junta overthrew the "left wing" Archbishop - he was supposed to be killed - but the British whisked him off the island - ironic - as they had imprisoned him in the fifties for his "agitations".  A new govt was "installed". During this time the US Ambassador was killed - many theories abound as to who really killed him - as he was against Kissinger's aims.


Within days Turkey invaded the island - it is only 45 miles away ( Greece nearly ten times further !)

Turkey had planned this for a long time - asking the British if it could use the bases to land - to save lives.

Britain sent warships to block the invasion force- as the US TOLD Britain to back down..


Within a month Turkey had 37% of the island and it remains split to this day... a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" was declared and the US abstained on resolutions to remove all military forces


The Greek Junta massively miscalculated - The CIA were playing off both sides.. whoever won would be the US "friend". The Junta ordered it's troops  / Airforce to attack Turkey and were ignored - the Junta - like the one in Cyprus fell.


The US moved it's bases to Turkey, and uses the British bases in Cyprus.

The Greek Cypriots stopped trusting the US and hated the British for not defending them from the Turkish invasion - the TCs and Turks call it the "peace movement"

The Greek Cypriots have behaved like the Republic of Cyprus is the voice of all Cypriots and the TCs think they have their own nation - which only Turkey recognises, but the US never voted at UN security council resolutions to condemn!


AJ, I hope this explains why the Greek pilots disappeared - they simply didn't want to fight Turkey - a nation with 10 times the population and bigger military might.

Kissinger got "rid" of the "Commie in the Cassock", US bases were "secured" and Cyprus was totally F'd up - to this day - despite court rulings - the GCs can't move back to their homes, and selfish Brits, Israelis, etc, are "buying" homes built on land that a "state" that isn't recognised issues "title deeds" for..

The sad thing is GC and TC people are very friendly, and outside Cyprus get on fine .. they were pawns in a much bigger "game"..

I game to Cyprus thinking my country was "near perfect" and now I clearly see how things play out in terms of "national interest" and how this can ruin a country's reputation

[Jumper]

sorry for all the off-topic..
Mark-
Thanks, i knew some of the details,
(especially the relocation of US bases to Turkey
 and the britis holdings and interest in Cyprus)
 but that was a good refresher and some new things as well!!
quie interesting to me since  was there those very days..
Even at that early age,( i was quite young in 1974)lol
  I still understood quite well ,why the greek pilots refushed to scramble.(but we would have backed them ,if they had?  )

Like  i said in my orignal posts, i totally understand the Cypriots feeling as they did, and do!
They were the pawns.
 
My disillusionment was with the Greek gov.(who pretended to be  pawns,but where the ones also  manipulating )

We were there to help them, and had spent millions to do so.
when they did not want to jump in themselves ,to defend what they felt was thiers..
they used the US inaction ,as a  convenient oppurtunity.

"asking us to leave" is a very mild way to describe what went down.
sorry i'm  military soul.
"Asked to leave " in this fashion, over politics, but played to the public ear as a reaction to the US  not being *supportive*????
(I believe if they had been active ,instead of afraid of turkey,
both the US and the British would have aided thier effort there? the
isle did end spilt regardless..to show the support did exist?)

instead the incident was used as a convenience to shift power
in the homeland of Greece (so they really cared  about the cypriots yes?)  Granted we were laying our own games in that part of the world.
but it all came down to this:

AJ, at the time Greece had a military Junta for a govt., and it wasn't popular .. the US saw the writing on the wall.. if a democratic socialist govt came to power .... they'd be asked to leave !!

I'm all for that, it was thier country,
 but me? I  would have rolled up that highway (the only one they had)  the harbor, and taken the bulk of the airforce back as well.
AND still moved our bases to Turkey..
(we already had that big aircraft carrier under or allies the brits in cyprus afterall )
apologies to any Greek nationals i offend with the post.
(its really about the gov and politics of  the time, and not the citizens)
but it is the way the world works ,you stop scratching my back, i've little reason to dump millions into your economy and infrastructure...
lol
 
 I think its just that us day to day pawns are more to the point i suppose? and tend to play the game to win, not to make the other players or spectators happy. its generally being realistic and pragmatic ,but often taken as arrogance. The British ,of all peoples, should relate. and understand the distinction the easiest, they lived it for a long time..  ??

Anyway thats been a long time ago,
and in the larger picture i REALLY  enjoyed my time 2 years in  Greece as a youngster, and later on as an adult...

I think i would find Cyprus very nice as well !! I doubt theres much work for me there though ..lol plus even though english is common there?   i've all but forgotten most of the greek i once knew

[msmoby_ru]

sorry for all the off-topic..

Yep .. me too

My disillusionment was with the Greek gov.(who pretended to be  pawns,but where the ones also  manipulating )

They were no "angels" for show, but my point is that the US ENCOURAGED the Greek military Junta, and where feeding info to the Turks - a split of Cyprus had already been agreed - on a map - looking INCREDIBLY like how the cease fire worked out !!

in the homeland of Greece (so they really cared  about the cypriots yes?) 

The GREEK speaking Cypriots - yes !! But in reality the only thing the Greeks coud do , was to rename Turkish coffee to GREEK coffee !

 I think its just that us day to day pawns are more to the point i suppose? and tend to play the game to win, not to make the other players or spectators happy. its generally being realistic and pragmatic ,but often taken as arrogance. The British ,of all peoples, should relate. and understand the distinction the easiest, they lived it for a long time..  ??  

No arguement there, but the lingering resentment of deeds carried out by our leaders in national interests lingers a long time

I think i would find Cyprus very nice as well !! I doubt theres much work for me there though ..lol plus even though english is common there?   i've all but forgotten most of the greek i once knew

Endaxi )) Cyprus - as an ex UK Colony- still regards English as an important language. In Limassol - the commercial city - it is THE language used in banking / accounting circles - even amongst Russian clients.  You'd be fine and your wife RIGHT at home - Russian is spoken in the QUALITY shops.. especially the FUR shops  )

[Jumper]

you need a fur in Cyprus?
(yes i know we are talking in the context of RW, so thats a silly question . )

 

They were no "angels" for show, but my point is that the US ENCOURAGED the Greek military Junta, and where feeding info to the Turks - a split of Cyprus had already been agreed - on a map - looking INCREDIBLY like how the cease fire worked out !!

 of course!
it was  game set match?
( i mentioned we already had our strongest ally with a base there..lol)
and playing to win is normal!!
all of us  pawns in the game ,being used as well, pawns,
is normal.not liking it much, is just as understandible
(hence my empathy for the Cypriots)

The world getting upset about it all, (in a big general way)
because the media wants to live in fantasyland is the odd part
The US is oft singled out for its indiscretions,
while they are true enough,
its just annoying when few others are put under the same microscope.
few large nations are *innocent*, in any way shape or form.
they ALL have holdings and interests for the sake of self preservation.
and they all play political and military games?
 
thats my point in regard this thread,
and to get back on topic a bit-

the "perceptions" of RW about the USA (or other countries considred for immigration ) are flavoured almost entirely be a world wide media that concentrats quite a bit of extra negativity to the USA.
Things other countries do, or would do as well, would  hardly get a mention,while the US will get filleted in the world press.just how it is.
if we mention it  , we are crybabies.LOL if we ignore it, we are arrogant?
 Recent events havn't helped, but they sure as heck did not start this trend. (as evidenced by our discussion of similar world events and attitudes in 1974!)
My wife was shocked that the US wasnt nearly as horrible in that arena ,as she had been led to believe.
The UA press really taints many RW view of the USA.
We regularly hear stories from her mother , of events on the news about the US,and our area of it in particular ,that have little if ANY bearing on the truth or reality.
There are pure sensationalism,but why wouldnt that particular rW believe them? only because she can call her daughter directly and confirm it isnt happning in our city as portrayed on her local news station?
The funny part is she(mother) will argue indiffinantly that she is correct!
when we were just on the very street the alledged event took place (and it was a regular day, no news ,no event to report anything on lol)

its not a stretch to suggest that  goes on at an equal level or higher, on much more significant events and issues?

does  it lead to cold feet? i dont know , but it is a factor?
and the kind of sad thing is that  often there is not much fact beneath the reports this *perception* is based on!!   
 it's  a "perception" , a mindset, and from my experience a lot of its roots are grounded more in unreliable senstationlistc news reports, hearsay, and the dreaded (BGN)babushka gossip netwrk, than in any facts.
 I need to start a thread on all the things the UA news
has reported in Dnepro , about chicago or the USA,
that have absolutely nothing in common with the reality of the events reported on ..(if the event even happened at all)
LOL

The "why?" that happens in the media ,(US media includd)
is almost as important , as the fact it may influence a RW's mindset,
 before she can experience the reality and make up her own mind.

To be fair, i should say the perceptions of both bad ,and good things, are often equally misguded in the BGN!!
a very strong force within the FSU!  

[steviej]

... We were there to help them ...

AJ, we were not there to help them. The US government was there to help themselves. As is always the case anywhere in the world. And the PR trick is it always sounds to the US public, and issued to the world press, like we are there to help them. The funny thing about Americans, being half way around the world from anywhere else on our big island, is that we don't know any history, and we believe it when our government is busy "helping" in so many places around the world. Right now we are busy helping Iraq, and we are preparing to help Iran. Recently we were busy helping Kosovo and Somalia, and we are always helping Israel. We are a very helpful nation !!

[Ronnie]

AJ, we were not there to help them. The US government was there to help themselves. As is always the case anywhere in the world. And the PR trick is it always sounds to the US public, and issued to the world press, like we are there to help them. The funny thing about Americans, being half way around the world from anywhere else on our big island, is that we don't know any history, and we believe it when our government is busy "helping" in so many places around the world. Right now we are busy helping Iraq, and we are preparing to help Iran. Recently we were busy helping Kosovo and Somalia, and we are always helping Israel. We are a very helpful nation !!

What's that odor?

Smells a little like sarcasm and a lot like left-wing radical anti-American propaganda.  Whoa! It oughta smell.  It's rotten left overs from the 60s.  Maybe you can dry it and smoke it!

Peace, man.

[msmoby_ru]

What's that odor?

Smells a little like sarcasm and a lot like left-wing radical anti-American propaganda.  Whoa! It oughta smell.  It's rotten left overs from the 60s.  Maybe you can dry it and smoke it!

Peace, man.

Hi Ronnie!

May me someone needs to wake up and smell some coffee, .. offering  "left wing propanganda" as some sort of dismissive "put down" doesn't work ..

Please back up your retort with an alternative viewpoint....

I look forward to hearing from you.

[Admin]

Hi Ronnie!

May me someone needs to wake up and smell some coffee, .. offering  "left wing propanganda" as some sort of dismissive "put down" doesn't work ..

Please back up your retort with an alternative viewpoint....

I look forward to hearing from you.

Naw, let's not.

Let's keep to the theme of RWD and leave the pro/anti American stuff elsewhere.

- Dan

[docetae]

Naw, let's not.

Let's keep to the theme of RWD and leave the pro/anti American stuff elsewhere.

- Dan

I just come back on this forum after a few weeks off, started to read the first post of this thread and the last one. It is that which is called redshift ?

[Jumper]

Dan sorry ..lol
as presented , i do feel i was back on topic?

world perception, could effect  the cold feet Bucky was originally posting about?

stevie-
a viewpoint that may have some accuracies,
but  i think i duly acknowledged that we were there for a mutual benefit.ours and thiers,
I was there, if you think their benefit at the time dint out weigh ours , (as outlined the brits already held a large base in cyprus)
you need to go back in time and visit yourself.

but yes the idea was , they help us , we help them
and YES we were there helping them , (they did not really have an airfroce to amount to anything,wanted one as the fear of the turks was real, and  we gave them one in hopes of frienship and an ally ,
(duh)  but they could , and more importantly DID,
 use it as they saw fit? and still do)
of course we also were trying to help  ourselves in th eregion?
 noone is so naive as to think it was completely a charity case?
most nations friendships ,are of that nature?
no black helicoptors of secrecy there in acknowledging that??

The hypocrasy is when any nation is singled out ,above others, for it?

and it DOES effect the thoughts, and actions , of RW western men might meet.

as far as the rest of your post. i've walked some of those places,
(and some worse) the political theories, and why we were there aside,
 please dont pretend to tell me whom my squad did,
 and did not,actually help
Most of us live normal lives that day to day ,,
are not greatly effected by world politics,(except in larger
 general ways)
in that sense, very few American citizens gained any real value to thier lives, by our actions, yet many foriegners lives were improved drastically. They were and are quite grateful, regardless wether you  feel we should have been there ,or wether we were being
 "helpful" or not.

That's a pretty sore subject with me, as you might imagine, and you are welcome for us both to debate it in anything goes instead?

we entered WW1 and WWII in self interest as well ,
world politics are both simple and complicated ?
 no nation is innocent? while one seems held to a different standard often.  (my point in this thread)

For the context of the thread, it doesnt matter why this happens ,
or even if the perceptions are true ,or false.
they exists, and they may be a growing factor.




 

[steviej]

What's that odor?

Smells a little like sarcasm and a lot like left-wing radical anti-American propaganda.  Whoa! It oughta smell.  It's rotten left overs from the 60s.  Maybe you can dry it and smoke it!

Peace, man.

Well, Ronnie, you don't know how funny what you said is because you don't know me. My politics are generally quite conservative, and you have the honor of being the first to try to smear me as a "left-wing radical anti-American " ... Do you like to read? Have you heard of Pat Buchanan? He's been a leading spokesman for the conservative movement for more than 2 decades. He ran for president in 2000, but lost the republican primary to Bush (he was considered too conservative by main stream republicans). He wrote a great book you should read called, "A Republic, Not an Empire". It is a history of American foreign policy from Washington until today. He is an excellent historian and writer, adn the book is fun and interesting. It has  had a big effect on my opinions in this area. It's probably not in the bookstores anymore, but y ou might be able to get it at the library or on ebay or amazon. Good reading !!

[Ronnie]

Well, Ronnie, you don't know how funny what you said is because you don't know me. My politics are generally quite conservative, and you have the honor of being the first to try to smear me as a "left-wing radical anti-American " ... Do you like to read? Have you heard of Pat Buchanan? He's been a leading spokesman for the conservative movement for more than 2 decades. He ran for president in 2000, but lost the republican primary to Bush (he was considered too conservative by main stream republicans). He wrote a great book you should read called, "A Republic, Not an Empire". It is a history of American foreign policy from Washington until today. He is an excellent historian and writer, adn the book is fun and interesting. It has  had a big effect on my opinions in this area. It's probably not in the bookstores anymore, but y ou might be able to get it at the library or on ebay or amazon. Good reading !!

I have not read Pat Buchanan's book but I read his articles whenever I see them on the internet.  I agree with him and would certainly vote for him this year over the two we will have to chose from.  Not since 1984 have Americans been given a candidate worthy of anyone's vote.

However I have not heard Pat Buchanan rail against Americans for not knowing history or living on a island on the other side of the world.  Maybe he does, but I haven't heard him use the tone you employed above.

To the point of Americans not knowing much about what's going on in other countries vs what non-Americans know about the US, I can only say it's totally unfair.  Every night on the TV news or in newspapers in every foreign country there is news of what's going on in America...usually with a negative slant.  When I lived in Italy in the late sixties, the headline of the newspapers was almost always about bad news from the states; RFK, MLK, Kent State, Chicago 7, Vietnam.

At the same time, Italy was being absolutely terrorized by the Brigati Rossi (Red Brigades).  World new organizations always seem to find room on their front page for stories about the US.  Partly I suspect because the papers lazily pick up news stories form Reuters or AP rather than pay their own reporters to orignate a domestic story.

 Americans cannot possibly be as well informed about every other country in the world as those people are about the US.  But I wonder how well are the French informed about Mexico or the multitude of Latin American countries or Japan?  Not much would be my guess. 

How much do they know about each other is my question.  How many Aussies or Poles or Russians watched the Royal-Sarkozy debate?  Probably about the same percentage (or less) as Americans, but who gets the bad rap?

So no, Stevie, I don't think Pat Buchanan would go as far as you did with your rhetoric.  But now, i have to be kinder to you because Buchanan will be my protest write-in candidate in November most likely.  Though his sister Bay has the better mind IMHO.

[steviej]

I have not read Pat Buchanan's book but I read his articles whenever I see them on the internet. 

The book is excellent and I'm sure you would find it fascinating. He doesn't rant and rave. He has a suburb intellect. His graps of American history and foreign policy is great. He would've been one of the all time great presidents, in my opinion. His political problem was, he doesn't "sell out".

[Ronnie]

His other problem was being labeled anti-semitic.  That doesn't sit well with a sizeable and powerful Jewish bloc in the Senate consisting of:
Boxer
Cardin
Feingold
Feinstein
Kohl
Levin
Lieberman
Lautenberg
Sanders
Schumer
Specter
Wyden

and one conservative:
Coleman

[2tallbill]

Warning thread hijack alert
Warning thread hijack alert
Warning thread hijack alert

I like much of what Pat Buchanan says (but not all) and I doubt that he's antisemitic.
I also don't think that liberal Senators have much to do with presidential selection of the Republican ticket.

I don't think what Buchanan says or his political thoughts have much to do
with RW or the FSU otherwise I would ask the Mod's  to separate this topic into it's own thread.

Just my two kopecks,

Bill
Bill

[BillyB]

I've got a 1968 magazine where people are protesting violently, peacefully and by burning the American flag. The article is titled "They Grab Our Aid But Hate Our Guts". People are holding banners telling the US to get out of Vietnam, get out of Taiwan, and to stay out of Cuba. These protestors are European so hating America isn't new and isn't all about Bush. The reasons people hate America in the article are similar to the reasons people have stated in this thread. Nothing new except the countries names have changed along with the names of leaders.

I have a German friend who once believed Americans are arrogant based on what he seen and read from the European media and word of mouth from other Europeans but after living here, he said we are less arrogant than Europeans and he never wants to move back. A similiar conversation happened with an Austrian man I talked to. He doesn't want to go back either.

People can state their opinions all day but actions speak louder than words. One can judge a nation by the number of people coming and going and definately people are coming here more than people leaving. Some of you remember Andrew who had nothing good to say about America but he did state state people from England is moving here at a 2.5 to 1 ratio over Americans moving there.

Most likely, when a friendly nation is in trouble, the first person they'll call is the USA and most likely we will be there for them and get results. I wasn't born the the USA but I'm not a dummy to think it's a terrible place to live based on terrible policies.

[msmoby_ru]

These protestors are European so hating America isn't new and isn't all about Bush. The reasons people hate America in the article are similar to the reasons people have stated in this thread. Nothing new except the countries names have changed along with the names of leaders.

Not quite sure how we've got here, but to try to pull you back on thread  - we are talking about a "possible" reason for some increased skeptism of FSUW. We had the time after the "cold war" when relations with Russia were great and now.... What Russians are seeing on their news recently makes the USA "bad guys - and by association the UK, too !

Now does this make us less likely to wish to seek out a FSUW, I wonder?!

I have a German friend who once believed Americans are arrogant based on what he seen and read from the European media and word of mouth from other Europeans but after living here, he said we are less arrogant than Europeans and he never wants to move back. A similiar conversation happened with an Austrian man I talked to. He doesn't want to go back either.

Billy, let's hope most of us here can make their own judgement call based on face to face meetings .. I've seen posts on this board where one silly American, Brit or German "could" lead to the whole nation being "pigeon-holed"..

It is just as silly to claim that Americans are arrogant - as it is to claim that Europeans are more arrogant than Americans...  Europeans are made up of many diverse cultures, and aren't exactly homogenous .. The US is made up of settlers from Europe and other continents - so it is diverse, too .. most of these comments are borne of ignorance. People's attitudes to other nations are based on the actions of those nations - and how it affects them.

A lot of people have opinions on the US, because it is the last "super power". It is the country that most demonstrably tries to influence outside it's borders. However, well meaning that may well be, it reflects the interests of America - and that might not reflect the best interests of many other countries... !

People can state their opinions all day but actions speak louder than words. One can judge a nation by the number of people coming and going and definately people are coming here more than people leaving. Some of you remember Andrew who had nothing good to say about America but he did state state people from England is moving here at a 2.5 to 1 ratio over Americans moving there. Most likely, when a friendly nation is in trouble, the first person they'll call is the USA and most likely we will be there for them and get results. I wasn't born the the USA but I'm not a dummy to think it's a terrible place to live based on terrible policies.

Billy, if you are offering a reason for FSUW possibly not wanting to come to the USA to live, I'd be with you and say that would be a silly reason to discount an American man.  WHO claimed it was a BAD place to live? *I* expressed a personal opinion - having been there many times - based on "healthcare" not being socially equitable, and a few other personal criteria.. it wasn't anti -American ... I don't live in my home country, at the minute, and that reflects my personal criteria - it doesn't make me pro / anti my country, either !

When you travel to Russia, you will detect a resurgence in national pride .. and that's good and bad.. pride in one's nation ( adopted or not !) can sometimes make us blind to it's faults.

After some time out of Russia, my wife returned to her city and expressed a quiet opinion to one of her mates that the city was dirtier and more unkempt than she had remembered...she thought the in the west, the cities generally had a more responsible attitude to tidiness. ...She was shocked when her friend said " Now you live in the west your country is dirty, now Where is your pride in your city / your country?" .... Her friend had recently travelled to New Mexcio via LA and, correctly, pointed out that some western cities had some very dirty areas, too. ( Veta, had spent most of her time in the countryside - but also in Limassol, Cyprus, and London )  I was surprised by the ladies response - even if she was correct to point out holes in Veta's perception. Then I thought about it ... it is human nature to compare with what we are used to, and also nature to be proud of one's city / nation. We all judge what is right / wrong by our experiences and on local influences.... right now, most Russians feel they are no longer weak .. many successful business women don't feel the need to seek a WM and are happy to come HOME !

Could this be another example of cold feet? This woman was on Western orientated dating sites - she even helped my wife with her profile, as a result of another  of her friends meeting an AM from New Mexico - who's wedding she attended - she also met a WM in LA.. She has decided that it would take a VERY special man to persude her to up sticks and move....

[docetae]

My concern is not about people but about policies from this current administration...

When I see patriot act consequences, read about Guantanamo or CIA  jails, when I see how people are scanned and filtered at borders, I can only think about a few words:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

I guess everybody know who write this...

[steviej]

.... Her friend had recently travelled to New Mexcio via LA and, correctly, pointed out that some western cities had some very dirty areas, too.

One of the most highly developed skills of the Western Protestant culture is denial. In all major American cities there are extensive areas of dirty, dangerous, run-down slum like places. We avoid these places like the plague. They are primarily black (including a lot of Caribbeans) and hispanic, but these are huge areas. It's like little Brazil in many places. In the clean and safe areas of the cities and the suburbs, things are really nice and that's what we think of when we talk about "America." But for others who come here, often they see the whole thing, and can rightly go home say say, "There are many wonderful areas, and there are many dirty dangerous slummy areas." That's not anti-American, its just reality. No one that can afford a good apartment or house lives anywhere near those places.

[Ooooops]

When I see patriot act consequences, read about Guantanamo or CIA  jails, when I see how people are scanned and filtered at borders, I can only think about a few words:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"

I guess everybody know who write this...

I cannot agree more...   It's terrible to watch a great country decline like this... 

[ScottinCrimea]

I cannot agree more...   It's terrible to watch a great country decline like this... 

Good Lord, we're turning into the Soviet Union!!

[Ooooops]

Good Lord, we're turning into the Soviet Union!!

Nope, different but just as bad...   

[Ronnie]

Nope, different but just as bad...  

There is an ever so slight difference between controlling who comes into your house and controlling who leaves.

My concern is not about people but about policies from this current administration...
When I see patriot act consequences, read about Guantanamo or CIA  jails, when I see how people are scanned and filtered at borders, I can only think about a few words:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
I guess everybody know who write this...

In case there are those out there suffering from memory loss, it was about, oh let's see now, 7years ago...the exact date escapes me now, but I think it was a Tuesday morning in September, that nineteen sons of perdition were returned to Satan's bosom by their own filthy hands.  In the process, they murdered nearly 3,000 innocent human beings from many different countries, but mostly American citizens and many who were working to become citizens.  Among the victims was more than one RW.  The acts the beasts committed brought great hardship to many families from around the world.

So who are those people held at Guantanamo?  They are clones of the nineteen.  Taking up arms not because of some call from their own government, but out of nothing less than pure evil intent.  These are people who will swarm around a innocent person on the street, throw them into a van, take them to a bare room where they will turn on the video camera, read an incoherent few lines before taking out a knife and severing the poor person's head, letting him or her bleed to death on the floor with camera rolling. God is Great!

So, when the current administration decides when they are caught in the act aqnd are flown to a tropical island, given 3 square meals a day, freedom to socialize with each other but kept away from innocent people...it's a terrible, terrible  thing we do.  Now, our misguided Supreme Court (or more accurately, the left side of it) has decided these dregs of humanity not only deserve the treatment of honorable prisoners of war, but further, they should have their cases heard in US Federal Courts, and if their captors in our military cannot put on a strong enough case against them, they get to be returned to their killing field where they can return to their demonic deeds against innocents.  When in the history of the world did such a thing ever happen?

Americans may be fools for being too soft on those who would do, and do do, us and the world harm, but criticism directed at a government's efforts to combat the proven threats to our safety is as wrong-headed as can be. 

The quote you cited, Docetae was made in an different time in a different world and you have grossly misapplied it.   

Someone sent  me an email recently with reminiscences of a more innocent time, the 1950s.  One of the lines was, "Remember when you never had to wonder where you put the car keys?"  Indeed I do, they were in the car with the doors unlocked. 

Have I then sacrificed my freedom for the sake of safety when I lock my car?  Probably one can argue to a degree I have.

Does that mean I deserve neither safety nor freedom?   Give me a break!