A letter to Ambach123

[GreginGa]

And if she will consult with you - oh, look, lobster!  I've never had one! - then what?   

Thats why you dont take a girl on a first date to a place that offers the lobster. Mrs  Ooooops, you're very intelligent and well traveled. I think you know the jest of what we're trying to say here. The girl I married wouldve fell over on the floor had I insinuated we have a $100+ dinner on the first or 27th date. The ones you want to spend the rest of your life with will be frugal.

[steviej]

In the early days of our courtship if I took my lady to an upscale restaurant, her eyes literally came popping out of her head. She had never had such an experience, and she literally wanted to try everything on the menu. And she wanted to try everything I ordered as well! LOL Her enthrallment was natural and charming. She didn't even have any idea how large any portion was if you ordered it. I just let her order whatever she wanted to try. And believe me, we had a few occasions where 2-3 appetizers and 2 entrees were ordered. And she would eat a little bit of everything and be stuffed (much to her dismay), as well as sampling mine. Any leftovers were dutifully wrapped (which she was amazed to find you could do that) and taken home to the refrigerator. And after 7 years (5 years of marriage) she still does the same thing LOL. She can never keep her eyes inside her head when we go to a upscale restaurant. Although now she has learned that 1 appetizer and 1 entree is sufficient. But she still eats mine as well LOL.

So, you do have to have some sense or ability to get the "vibe" of the woman you are with. Some guys just don't have it. I guess I had enough of it in this case, anyway.

But, Both Taz and ScottinCrimea have worked all this with their feet on the ground, and they know what they are talking about. Ambach does not. What's fun about this thread is that Ambach started out asking for advice, and then enjoys explaining why he is not taking it. And its fun for us to continue to disagree and explain why he should. The output is therefore a bunch of interesting opinions on many aspects of this stuff, which is still useful to all the other newbies lurking and reading it.

[Ooooops]

Thats why you dont take a girl on a first date to a place that offers the lobster.

 

Mrs  Ooooops, you're very intelligent and well traveled.

Well, thank you, Mr GregGa      But I'd argue your words that - "The ones you want to spend the rest of your life with will be frugal".    It all depends on the couple views of life, their preferences and priorities.   But I agree with you that person should look for the perfect match and if it's a frugal one so be it.

[GreginGa]

Can we have a show of hands of the guys here that wants a wife who feels she has  to buy everything she wants. Being frugal is a quality that is almost unmatched. It shows the lady is financially responsible and respects their marriage. Their is no argument to win here because anyone who thinks its not important to be economical cannot debate reason and logic.

[Ooooops]

Being frugal is a quality that is almost unmatched.

When I think "frugal living" I see collecting soap slivers for the later use...     Responsible budgeting is a bit different than that, isn't it?   

[GreginGa]

When I think "frugal living" I see collecting soap slivers for the later use...     Responsible budgeting is a bit different than that, isn't it?   

I would hope that most AM here would be able to understand what I'm trying to say here. Without getting into exact specifics and trying to split an atom here I think most of us understand what was implied.

[Jet]

Being frugal is a quality that is almost unmatched. It shows the lady is financially responsible and respects their marriage.

I think most people will "get it". I don't know that "frugal" is the best word to describe my wife, but she is by no means extravagant or care-free when spending. She is quite financially responsible and always weighs value vs price vs need. I think this is the point you were trying to make.

(Honestly, when I hear the word frugal I get the same mental picture as Oooops - Lil's grandmother "recycling" the coffee grounds rather than using fresh to make a second cup, friends of my parents racing to get to the restaurant by 3 pm to ensure they can order off the "early bird" menu, & our neighbor heading out to the grungy market across town because they give "double coupons". That ISN'T my wife, and damn sure ain't me.)

[GreginGa]

I think most people will "get it". I don't know that "frugal" is the best word to describe my wife, but she is by no means extravagant or care-free when spending. She is quite financially responsible and always weighs value vs price vs need. I think this is the point you were trying to make.

(Honestly, when I hear the word frugal I get the same mental picture as Oooops - Lil's grandmother "recycling" the coffee grounds rather than using fresh to make a second cup, friends of my parents racing to get to the restaurant by 3 pm to ensure they can order off the "early bird" menu, & our neighbor heading out to the grungy market across town because they give "double coupons". That ISN'T my wife, and damn sure ain't me.)

I lived in West Palm Beach for 5 years so I certainly know about early bird specials. I used to laugh my ass off when Neil Rogers would start talking about all the old Jewish couples stealing the sweet&low from the table. LOL Him and Cuban food is about the only thing I miss from South Florida. Not many people our age was raised in a time where you had to be frugal although my wife remembers standing in line with her mom to buy bread and she is only 26 years old. She remembers being able to buy only 2 loaves and people fighting. I guess there are certainly extremely insane measures of people being frugal. I'll try to do a better job of differentiating my point next time. My point being the good ones will not order the lobster just because it costs the most. The good ones will not buy the most expensive bottle of French perfume simply because it costs the most. The good ones will not insist on a Mercedes 700 series once she arrives simply because it's available.

[Ooooops]

I would hope that most AM here would be able to understand what I'm trying to say here.

Are you implying that my English ain't that good or I'm a JAP?     Just jocking!..   Actually, the best lobster I ever had was on a beach in Venezuela and it cost us US$2       So, it's not about the price at all.   But also there is a very common Russian saying that "we are not that rich to buy cheap things".   Go figure...   

[ambach123]

Here is my tentative plan.

I arrive in Kiev on Saturday September 13 for ten days.

I stay at the Hotel President in center city.

I am working with an agency www.interdating.ua ; they have arranged for meetings with about ten ladies who fit my criteria, who have seen my profile and have expressed an interest. The meetings would take place in their offices, with an interpreter if needed.

I have another about ten ladies that I have been corresponding with myself.

This is just a fact finding trip, I can't predict any success or lack of it. I will come back and think over this pursuit further.

There is obviously more to it than I initially thought.

I don't know how much you can tell in a meeting in an hour or two. Nonetheless some people say that you can tell in the first ten minutes if you want to proceed.

I appreciate any suggestions.

[groovlstk]

This is just a fact finding trip, I can't predict any success or lack of it. I will come back and think over this pursuit further.

I don't know how much you can tell in a meeting in an hour or two. Nonetheless some people say that you can tell in the first ten minutes if you want to proceed.

I appreciate any suggestions.

Good to see you're on the right track, Ambach. Enjoy your time there, you have the right attitude in not expecting to meet your soulmate on your first trip. I'd suggest you grab some Pimsleur CDs and learn some basic Russian phrases, the return you'll get in simply demonstrating respect for the locals by trying to learn their language will be ten-fold. Have fun and don't let yourself get taken for a ride (via both women and local businesses), but don't be overly cautious, either. It's a hard balance to strike but the alternatives of being thought of as greedy or an easy mark are much worse.

[ambach123]

I have some questions groovlstk.

The ladies I am going to meet are going to be Ukrainians. Do they consider Russian as "their" language or Ukrainian as their language?

I am confused about their identity, are they Russians, or Ukrainians or both; or does it matter?

I have a lot of problems with the Russian alphabets, a problem I believe common to all native English speakers, any suggestions?

[groovlstk]

I have some questions groovlstk.

The ladies I am going to meet are going to be Ukrainian. Do they consider Russian as "their" language or Ukrainian as their language.

I am confused about their identity, are they Russians, or Ukrainians or both; or does it matter?

hah, good luck with this one! Assuming one or the other can be offensive, you're best off clearing this up with a simple and neutral question prior to your meetings. As for Ukrainian women, you can assume they speak fluent Russian even if they don't identify themselves as such.

I have a lot of problems with the Russian alphabets, a problem I believe common to all native English speakers, any suggestions?

I never bothered to learn the Cyrillic alphabet (and I regret it), but if you stick w/Pimsleur you won't need to read anything, just repeat simple phrases until you have them memorized.

[myrddin]

Hardly an expert here, but a lot of this is still pretty fresh to me.  I'd definitely listen to groovlstk!

And for what it's worth:

There is obviously more to it than I initially thought.

!    I doubt that can be said often enough!

I don't know how much you can tell in a meeting in an hour or two. Nonetheless some people say that you can tell in the first ten minutes if you want to proceed.

I think you can tell how interested you are in meeting further.  I knew in the first ten minutes when I did NOT want to pursue things, and unfortunately a couple times spent the next hour or two confirming that first impression.

Try to leave time in between meetings to make notes when everything is as fresh as possible in your head.  You simply will not be able to remember the details later, no matter how sure you are that you can.  When looking for second meetings, try to see the ladies you are most interested in first.


As for the alphabet, try breaking it down to a few letters at a time (7-10).  Concentrate on those till you're comfortable and then move on.  If you're worried about pronunciation, you'll never pass for a native anyway (and I'm told an American accent isn't exactly sexy, men definitely get the better end of that! ).  I haven't tried Pimsleur myself, I'm using Ruslan and Penton Overseas now.  But the important thing is to do *something*.  It doesn't have to be perfect (and it won't be!) but the effort will be noticed.

[ambach123]

myrddin, if you know in the first ten minutes if you did NOT want to pursue, would n't it be better to terminate the meeting relatively quickly?

[msmoby_ru]

Here is my tentative plan.

I arrive in Kiev on Saturday September 13 for ten days.

I stay at the Hotel President in center city.

I am working with an agency www.interdating.ua ; they have arranged for meetings with about ten ladies who fit my criteria, who have seen my profile and have expressed an interest. The meetings would take place in their offices, with an interpreter if needed.

I have another about ten ladies that I have been corresponding with myself.

This is just a fact finding trip, I can't predict any success or lack of it. I will come back and think over this pursuit further.

There is obviously more to it than I initially thought.

I don't know how much you can tell in a meeting in an hour or two. Nonetheless some people say that you can tell in the first ten minutes if you want to proceed.

I appreciate any suggestions.

Observations... Ambach is ignoring me, so this is for those who follow his posts with interest..


1/ The President is no way the centre of the city  - IMHO - if you make Maiden / Independence Square - the centre.. There are nicer hotels and more interesting locations for a chap like him.. the Premiere Palace is more central and more his style ! The SAS Raddisson / Hyatt Regency closer to "old" Kiev and Khreschatyk Street and nice Churches and Architecture.

2/ 20 women lined up, eh?  - he'll need to be prepared for seeing the cities delightful charms over and over again as the lady tries to take him on the "city tour" - if they get past the 10 minute "interview"..

3/ Checked out that site and recognise some faces that have been on the scene from when *I* first started looking for a FSUW ( nearly six yrs ago)  .. same photos, too ! I wonder if Ambach is lined up to meet a certain lady referred to in a recent trip report ?! I think she may be too "old" for him

4/ As Ambach has time, 2.5 months - he would really benefit from some tuition in Russian or at least knowing the sounds of the alphabet - it helps SO much when you get there.. even if only to choose the right sex toilet !

5/ He should learn a little Ukrainian - if only Thanks - and not worry too much as to whether the lady is UA/ Russian or UA/ Ukrainian - they will forgive him that.

6/ He should invest in some sort of electronic translator - he won't have an interpretor around all the time - it's quite an "ice -breaker" even if the lady speaks good english!

7/ Any trip report from Ambach123 will be riveting reading



I REALLY hope Ambach does make the trip, as he will actually have something to offer advice about.. Somebody please tell him, I wish him luck, as he might understand why he sounded so pompous, not having worn the tea-shirt..

[groovlstk]

myrddin, if you know in the first ten minutes if you did NOT want to pursue, would n't it be better to terminate the meeting relatively quickly?

If you went on a blind dinner date in the States and found out almost immediately that the woman was not to your liking, would you be a gentleman and finish the date or invent an excuse to end it early so as not to waste your time or hers?

[Gator]

My suggestions, do as you wish:

1.  Do not stay in hotel.  Get an apartment.  You can fix yourself breakfast, and it is a place for out-of-town women to spend the night (you offer her a separate bedroom while you sleep on the sofa).  Living in an apartment immerses you more into their culture, which is good if you wish to understand UW.

2.  If the date is for one hour, be a gentleman and stay for the hour and be polite without giving a sign that you are dumping her.  Practice some Russian, practice conversation, etc.

3.  Learn the alphabet.  It is helpful for reading names of streets while walking around, train station arrivals and departures, men's toilets, etc.

4.  Yes, purchase an electronic translator.  It is helpful when spending time with a woman after terp's working hours.

[ambach123]

Gator, thanks for the suggestion for an apartment.

I am a little concerned about safety, I have heard that foreigners are robbed mugged or worse. Hotel provides some safety.

Secondly, the women have to have a meeting point where I would meet with them, at least those not coming from the agency, they can come to the lobby of the hotel and ask for me.
If I stay in an apartment where would I meet them?

I have another question; some women show a lot of skin on their profiles, I automatically exclude them. What would you suggest? These are good looking, well educated women I don't know why they decide to show so much skin.

[groovlstk]

Secondly, the women have to have a meeting point where I would meet with them, at least those not coming from the agency, they can come to the lobby of the hotel and ask for me.
If I stay in an apartment where would I meet them?

You may find that some women are reluctant to go to the front desk and ask for you, as they know the clerks may think they are prostitutes. You might want to find a nearby cafe or use the hotel's restaurant as a meeting point rather than the lobby.

I have another question; some women show a lot of skin on their profiles, I automatically exclude them. What would you suggest? These are good looking, well educated women I don't know why they decide to show so much skin.

This may provoke an argument, but I wouldn't sweat the flesh. Mind you, I wouldn't write to women who posted soft-core porn photos of themselves, but when you arrive in Kiev you'll immediately see that many young women dress in a manner that most prudish Americans would consider very provacative, even inappropriate.

[GreginGa]

I think you're going to be fine. You have lots of time to polish up on the minor details. If you have already booked the hotel then fine but if not you really really need to think about an apartment. Trust me on this. Lets find you one on Khresatic thats close to all the action. Dont worry about getting robbed. I actually arrive one day ahead of you. Hope we can meet for a coffee or beer but it doesnt look like you'll have the time.LOL Again go with the apartment if you havent booked.

[Gator]

Gator, thanks for the suggestion for an apartment.

I am a little concerned about safety, I have heard that foreigners are robbed mugged or worse. Hotel provides some safety.

Get a good apartment in the neighborhood Greg suggested.  Also, avoid the areas you would avoid in the US.  Get into bed before the late hours.  Don't be conspicuous about using ATM machines.

Secondly, the women have to have a meeting point where I would meet with them, at least those not coming from the agency, they can come to the lobby of the hotel and ask for me.
If I stay in an apartment where would I meet them?

Agree with Groovlstk - better to meet in a restaurant, etc.  In Kiev, I met women at O'Brien's Pub.  All the professional daters know where it is.  Also, be sure to have a local cell phone.

I have another question; some women show a lot of skin on their profiles, I automatically exclude them. What would you suggest? These are good looking, well educated women I don't know why they decide to show so much skin.

I got the idea from my wife who was complaining how the agency wanted her to show a photo in a bikini.  She will wear a thong on the beach, yet feels that it is improper on the Internet.  You will notice that many women do not show such photos even though the agency asks for them.  To me, it is a sign of desperation.  Also, I think a woman's shape (if she has a good figure) is very apparent in high quality, loose fitting designer clothing

BTW, their is no correlation between amount of skin in photos and willingness to go to bed.  Some women think all men are interested only in sex, and they play that angle, leading and teasing a man as if her body is the Holy Grail.  Other women when they feel comfortable with you, find you interesting, have had a few laughs, realize that you are sincerely interested in their minds.....will jump your bones.

A bikini may be okay dependent upon how the woman is posing.  Is it a playful photo or is she .....?

[SANDRO43]

A bikini may be okay dependent upon how the woman is posing.  Is it a playful photo or is she .....?

I'd also say the location where the photo is taken may be significant:

- Studio (professional, requires some planning/motivation, costs, etc.)
- Home (amateurish, but still requires some planning/motivation)
- Beach (souvenir of vacation, more spontaneous, still some motivation) 

I'd say the attachment shows a LOT of motivation .

[myrddin]

myrddin, if you know in the first ten minutes if you did NOT want to pursue, would n't it be better to terminate the meeting relatively quickly?

I wasn't 100% sure:

If you went on a blind dinner date in the States and found out almost immediately that the woman was not to your liking, would you be a gentleman and finish the date or invent an excuse to end it early so as not to waste your time or hers?

2.  If the date is for one hour, be a gentleman and stay for the hour and be polite without giving a sign that you are dumping her.  Practice some Russian, practice conversation, etc.

Pretty much my experience.  I also thought I should be sure to give them a full chance, and that I owed them something for showing up .  UW ladies surprised me more than once, so things could have changed.  They just didn't in these cases. 


All I can add to the great advice (aside from repeating "get an apartment, get a local phone") is:  it's gonna be a whirlwind no matter what you do, so try to build in time between meetings.

[ambach123]

Thanks for the help.

I have not yet booked the hotel, so I would looking for an apartment in the center city.

The package from the agency includes a local phone, airport pick up and send off, and some sightseeing, and administrative help,  10 - 15 meetings, all for $750.