Ukraine Observations (Agency hype subtracted)

[BetweenLines]

The following is a mixture of information and my observations. It is MY EXPERIENCE. Please keep in mind, your milage may vary! It is written in pieces while waiting travelling. There are all kinds of spelling and grammar issues but I am sure the information will come across.

I have put it together for anyone that, like me, wants to plan a trip to this country and has no idea what to expect. You can just book the whole thing through an agency and pay through the nose, or you can do it by yourself.

I tried to set up an interpreter/guide in each city I visited that could help me find an apartment and get me oriented, but some times the internet cafe and googles translation engine were all I had to work with. There are usually apartment rental websites in english for most cities. I did not pay more than $60 in any city and I had some nice apartments. Apartments generally do not require a deposit or even passport.

No concept of lining up. Standing in line for anything you must make sure there your nose is against the back of the person in front of you or someone will just slide right in front of as though you were holding their place in line! They love to run around the outside and cut in line right before the railing at the start of an escalator.
Its infuriating.

The first few times this happened I was just astounded. After a few days of this, I was standing in line to buy a train ticket and a woman just walked straigh up and stood right in front of me. I tapped her on the shoulder and she nodded and stood there. Finally I picked up all my bags and went around her and stood in front of her. I was very annoyed. Culturally they dont have the polite protocols that we seem to take for granted in the west.

Booking a train ticket is a strssfull event! Get a cabin in the middle of the carriage. Lower bunks afford security for your bags (you are holding down the lid which is your bed) and seem to be easier to sleep in. Travelling by train is an exercise in luck and persitence if you do not speak the language. The immediate reacton of any ticket clerk is extreem annoyance. asking her to speak in English takes the annoyance to outright anger as she yells and gesticulates and then finally ignores you. Without the kind help of someone in line that might be able to translate, you are hosed. After requesting a ticket at a station in Poltava I was completely ignored. It turned out that for some reason, it was not possible to buy a train ticket to anywhere after 8pm at night. This is not the case in major stations like Kiev and Kharkov.

If you are lucky, the people in the cabin (three others) will all be going to the same destination as you and want to sleep. I had mostly good experiences and one bad experience when I had Mr Anal Retentive bag packer next to me. After getting on the train at 2 am and finallyt getting to sleep at 3am, he leaps out of bed at 5am and starts to repack his bag, visit the bathroom 200 times, and munch something from a plastic bag that seemd designed to emmit the loudest possible noise from the slightest movement.

The toilet is an experience unto itself. There is a simple flap that releases the contents straight out onto the track when you "flush"! In this day and age it is astounding to me that they do not use a holding tank. The exceptions are the trains from Moscow or Poland that are more sophisticated. I was told that the majority of Ukraine trains were made in the Soviet era in Eastern Germany. This is what you get from Soviets.

The train stations have two very usefull features in general. One is a baggage storage area and the other is a shower. At first I did not trust my new laptop to the baggage lockers, but after a discussion with an interpreter I realized that the attendant is there 24/7 and I can choose my own combination (one letter and 3 digits).

Obviously someone must have a master combination somewhere as people have to forget their combination once in a while, but I figured that as long as no one saw which locker I put the laptop in, they would not know which one to target. It would be practically too difficult to go through them one by one.

The showers were very handy in summer when it can get hot (>26c) and humid. I would check out of the apartment in the morning, take the bags to the station and buy a ticket for that night, then tour the city. After a day walking all over the map, a quick shower is a welcome blessing before 8 hours in a bed on the train. For 12 or 15 grivna ($3 $4) it is well worth it.

I avoided taxis like the plague allthough it is possible to get a good deal. Once with three other US guys we got a 20min taxi ride for 40 Grivna (about $8). In Kiev, especially at the airport or train station this is unlikely.

Busses were a mixed bag. They are very cheap (1grivna to anywhere) but there is very little chance that they will be able to speak english. The idea is to either know the direction that you are going and just jump on one untill it goes in a different direction, or have someone tell you the correct number of the bus yuo need. I would ask someone to write the destination in Russian and just show it to the driver of each bus until one nodded da. Generally they will not stop in the street for you if you wave, but I had one that did and even stopped to let me off. I gave him a ten spot for tourist sympathy.

The Metro is a great way to get around and at 1/2 grivna for a ride from anywhere to anywhere, a great deal. Ask for a Metro map and just point to destinations

In general they smoke constantly. It seems the surgeon generals health warning has not reached these people. IN a club, expect to smoke a pack of second hand smoke. I would wake up with a voice of darth vader every time I stayed more than an hour in any club. The women all seem to smoke and drink, despite claims otherwise.


Apartments are available in most cities from $45 per night. In Kiev and Kharkov I rented nice apartments for $55. In Odessa I got more of a tourist rate $60. The apartment managers did not ask me for passport or for a deposit in all cities except Odessa, where AFTER taking my money, I was informed that I now needed to either give her my passport or stump up $50 for a deposit. I refuse to part with my passport under any circumstances and so I offered 100 grivna as deposit. This was declined and the interpreter that set the apartment up for me kindly gave her a $50 bill that she happend to have on her. I was furious that she waited untill taking my money to demand this.

Agencies are generally a complete waste of time for a few reasons. Firstly, most of the agencies are a fraud, meaning that they put pictures of models on their websites that either have no idea their pictures are being used or are part of the deception. These girls are the bait.
If you actually walk into the agency and ask to meet these girls one of two thingw will happen. You will either have an expensive date with a professional dater, or you will be informed that the girl does not want to meet you for a variety of reasons.

If the Agency is genuinly interested in introducing you to a qualified partner, you will be looking at homely looking girls in their 30s, probably with children.

I visited a couple of reputable agencies where I was assured the girls were genuine by anumber of different people and I could only find one or two that I actually would want to meet. As I guessed, they were very "popular", hence very unlikely to be good material for the advertised role.

I witnessed translators responding to letters, letters that were printed out and presumably read to the girls and many many very shady looking older russian women that ran the offices.

I felt like the mouse that is thrown into the snake tank in all but a couple of agencies I visited in many different towns. I asked difficult questions like; excuse me, what does "generous" mean in these girls profiles please?

I was unable to get a stright answer untill I met an interpreter that used to work for one of the more well known scam agencies, Global Ladies. She told me in no uncertain terms that this means the girl is looking for a many that has money, and will spend a lot of money on her. This was confirmed by a US guy I met while in an agency in Kiev who I had a long conversation with later. He recounted tales of girls that he knew that wanted a guy that made at least $300k/year. He informed me that many millionaiors come fishing here and the girls are used to an expensive lifestyle. He had a cute 20 something "girlfriend" for a year or two and he bought her an apartment amongst other things.

When I asked the owner of one of the reputable agencies in Kiev what this word meant, he grew a sheepish grin and said "probably what you think it means". So let there be no doubt that agencies are no help in the quest to meet a genuine woman. There are of course exceptions, but with the financial temptation that exists for easy money from desperate foreign men, it would be difficult to see that the purpose of agencies could be anything but a fraud.

In my humble opinion, the best way to go about this is to place a newspaper personal with the help of an interpreter that has experirnce with this process. The loca personal sites were mostly a waste of time from my experience. There were a lot of working girls with false profiles and older professional single women with access to the internet that had long since passed their shelf life.
 
Meeting women in clubs and on the street is probably more productive if you have even a little game, but the flake rate is going to be high, just like home. If you exclude the flakes, smokers, good time girls and so on, you are down to a very small percentage that are hot.
 
After the last few weeks I cannot even stand to look at the international websites any longer. They are ridiculous. The hot girls on them are simply the bait to get you to spend $20/letter to write to an agency shill. One ex agency employee told me that they even used pictures of famous singers!

I loved Kiev and was very dissapointed by Kiev. Kharkov is a great city and Poltava is very provincial (no action). Nikolaev was a soviet nightmare to look at, but is known for its beautifull women. As one woman explained as we walked, the region has been conquered by many peoples during its history and there is great diversity. She worked in a travelling theatre company for years and travelled all over the country. She said it was evident that the majority of the beauties were in the south. She also explained that there is a 3:1 ratio of women to boys and then recounted the current births of all her freinds which only netted one boy.

My impression of Ukraine is that it is a milder environment now than in the Soviet time, but the culture from that time still endures to a large extent. I see young couples that clearly do not adhere to this and openly express their feelings, but as one girl put it, "these men do not have any feelings", and as a guy that has lived here for 8 months put it, "these people are cold".

These are of course generalizations, but I think it is true to say that a nation of people emerging from a history of genocide (Stalin starved 10m Ukrainians to death) and soviet indifference, have left them aspiring to a better life while struggling to survive, and survival is a task that does not tend to bring out the warm and fuzzy side of human beings nature.

In the west we have grown accustomed to the affluence that affords us the luxury of interpersonal warmth and trust on a general social level. In the Ukraine, I suspect this is seen as a weekness to be taken advantage of. The apartment manager at one place I stayed would not take money directly from me (nor do money exchange booths). I had to first set the money down as I counted it out. Then he would pick it up. I was told that it is possible to cheat someone otherwise, something the interpreter understood implicitly.

Think about it. This implies that the person giving the money would claim that they gave him the monmey when they did not. That is a really hard core bare faced lie to try to pull off. Imagine the level of ruckus that would follow something like that. Jeeze. The fact that he thought I would be capable of something like that was frankly insulting. I was of course polite, because if he did something like that I would just pay the difference rather than deal with the fallout... because I can afford it. They cannot.

In general, the women are in the same boat, facing the same issues. They have one commodity at their disposal, their looks. It is not surprising to me that a large majority of them would have this as a core motivation, which raises the question of what is the foundation for your relationship? If you were able to remove the financial componant, how many of these women would still be interested?

Now judging by the responses to another thread, some of you take this as given and argue for its relevance. I can only say that for me, I want a long term relationship to be based on something other than my ability to support my partner, cos if that ever gets interupted by life events, you will find yourself alone in a hurry and dealing with the "life events". Seen it happen more than once.

I believe it is possible to find a quality woman here, In fact I met Thor and his wife who are two of the most genuine people I have met anywhere including the US, but based on what I saw, I suspect this is the exception not the norm.

[BetweenLines]

Contacts:

Great Interpreters/Guides:

Kiev
Evgeniya Klochko (Yevheniya)
evaskazka_at_ukr.net
+380661693241
Very very nice. Went out of her way to help.

Odessa
Elena
elena.shulyanskaya_at_rambler.ru
Very helpful. Even paid my bus fare!
Set up local dating profiles for me and found a nice apartment but was
not at all happy with the apartment manager.

Kharkiv
Mila Lobunko
L_Mila_at_meta.ua
+380982388798
Met her for an hour or so and got a very good feeling about her. She is someone I would be very comfortable working with. Obviously keen to do a good job. She used to work for one of the international agencies as an interpreter and has seen it all. Comes very highly reccomended from a guy with a lot of experience that I trust.

Poltava Apts
+380936763590
Super nice. Spoke reasonable english and manages a few apartments that are marked up by the agencies
Picked me up in her can and drove me to the very well situated apt. Very easy to work with.

Kharkiv Apts
+38 057 700 73 78
+38 097 916 88 45
Super nice Mother and Daughter (speaks reasonable English) Have multiple apartments. Very easy to work with. The apartment I rented was situated perfectly and was $55. They also offered me a nicer apartment for a little more.

Not so Great Interpreters/Guides:

Kiev
Victoria Dolgushina
vique2004_at_ukr.net
38 097 946 54 40
Not sure what to make of this one. Unless I made a mistake, she has the same number as "Julia" from www.kievmarriage.com who told me she had errands to run when I actually arrived at the station and needed to find an apartment.

Kharkov
Slava
Translation Office
translation.ukraine_at_gmail.com
I should choose my words carefully here because this one is well known and well respected. I had a long exchange with him before I left but my concerns about cost were met with explanations of how expensive things have become rather than research for cheaper solutions as I encountered with other interpreters. I spoke to at least five people who HIGHLY recommended him, and I personally met several of them including Thor who I HIGHLY respect. The all had nothing but good things to say about him. My opinion, and it is only that, is that he is a little busy and knows what his time is worth. I asked for estimates in three seperate emails and finally had to spell it out that I needed an estimate for a process that could generate 30 or more meetings.

Kiev/Odessa
Igor Kalinin
[deleted email per request]
20 Euro per hour
This is another very experienced person used by many people with very solid background  and reputation. I also felt that with his experience level comes the associated cost. I felt quite pressured by him to drive to Odessa (and cover some of the costs we assume). The apartment prices I was offered were high and the women he sent me to look at were poor to average. I am sure that they are all well qualified and genuine, but certainly not my speed. When I arrived I called him and asked for help finding an apartment. I admit it was alittle bit of a test. He calls me back with a place for $100/night, even tho I had emailed him several times that my budget was $50. Had he jumped on the internet for two minutes like Evgeniya, he could have produced a page full of aparments from $45/night as she did. (I eventually took one for $55 night right where I wanted to be which was great) This simple task showed me that I was expected to fit into a pre-existing price structure that was comfortable and convenient for him. Not a good fit for me I am afraid.

Kiev Apts
Yaroslav + wife
+380505151661
A few reasonable apts for around $50. Not so reliable and fell through on promise to fix a couple things
English very poor and not too flexible



Strongly Avoid Interpreters/Guides:
Poltava
Constantine
Kostya
HunterKiller_at_i.ua
8 (093) 771 - 73 - 56
8 (0532) 63 - 14 - 88.
My work costs 50$/day(8 hours).
Upon arrival, lead me to his dump of an apartment in which I was invited to stay for $10/night. After a bowl of brosht and a description of 1.5 days of work (no paperwork of names or addresses was provided) and a calculation on a scrap of paper, he just said "Pay". The total I owed him was apparently $85. I had nowhere else I could go that night and I did not know the town or speak the language so I negotiated to $50 and left the next day. This guy is NOT your friend.

Poltava
Contact person: Vera Karpenko
Agency name: Alice Agency
Address in English: Ukraine Poltava 36011 Pervomaisky av. 19, of. 3
Phone: +38 0532 50-29-55, +38 0532 50-24-27
Unavailable, manipulative and very very rude.

Odessa
Victoria Apts
+38 050 640 1144
+38 067 6052663
+38 0482 357679
Took my money then informed me of deposit I must pay or surrender my passport (NEVER do this)
In the kitchen draw I found photocopies 3 inches thick of other peoples passports! I found her to be manipulative and I did not like her nor trust her.

Misc:
Dnepropetrovsk
Not sure what category to put this one. Could be a professional dater or just an agency stool. Either way, absolutly NO HELP whatsoever. Below is the email exchange
Dnepropetrovsk
Tishkova Elena
princessElena_at_yandex.ru
http://www.5starintroductions.com/ladies/qy4931.shtml
"Hi!!!!!!!!!! Wow,l like you, ... I wait for you in my city, l live in big city Dnepropetrovsk, l feel we have much in common and l hope to see you soon. Are you come 14 July in my city?  Are you been in my city before?  How are you imagine your future? write me soon, l like you so much"
"l wait for you in my city. Come. call to me: +380637016***"
"l'm at work and l can give you phone and email agency in my city,they're can help you with apartament.  +380567966263.  office_at_5starintroductions.com"
"l'm serious girl and l'm looking for serious man for marriage. l don't know who you're and l want to meet you in agency. if you don't want you can search in internet apartment for you. You're Man and you should do it."

[Shadow]

Thanks for the interesting description. I hope that if you ever decide to go back (which I doubt given your description), you will first thoroughly study and find people to meet.
Your trip has shown that it is hard to find a woman you like without decent preparation.

[steviej]

In general, the women are in the same boat, facing the same issues. They have one commodity at their disposal, their looks. It is not surprising to me that a large majority of them would have this as a core motivation, which raises the question of what is the foundation for your relationship? If you were able to remove the financial componant, how many of these women would still be interested?

Now judging by the responses to another thread, some of you take this as given and argue for its relevance. I can only say that for me, I want a long term relationship to be based on something other than my ability to support my partner, cos if that ever gets interupted by life events, you will find yourself alone in a hurry and dealing with the "life events". Seen it happen more than once.

Very interesting report - you are a brave traveler! However, it is disingenuous to complain about the financial angle you described with the women. Why did you go in the first place? The truth is, because your financial achievements as a man are relatively greater w.r.t. the situation in Ukraine than in USA. Women want a man who is a proven provider. There is nothing wrong with that. It has been that way for 1 million years and counting. But that just gets your hat into the ring. You should be glad you've achieved enough to put your hat in the ring. It's a great opportunity. But its only the beginning. Yes, these women want a husband who can be a good provider and on whom they can depend, but they want to love thier husband, and they want their husband to love them. That's when the opportunity for all the good stuff begins. Although you've seen the naked truth with many things about the situation there, don't be discouraged. You said, "... I want a long term relationship to be based on something other than my ability to support my partner, cos if that ever gets interupted by life events, you will find yourself alone in a hurry and dealing with the "life events ... " You can definitely have that too. Be proud that you can be a good provider for a good woman. And once an FSUW "signs up", loves you, and believes you love her, you can't shake them loose. Most of them, the "good ones" as we say around here, are very loyal in the face of hard times in the future.

[Donhollio]

Misc:
Dnepropetrovsk
Not sure what category to put this one. Could be a professional dater or just an agency stool. Either way, absolutly NO HELP whatsoever. Below is the email exchange
Dnepropetrovsk
Tishkova Elena
princessElena@yandex.ru
http://www.5starintroductions.com/ladies/qy4931.shtml
"Hi!!!!!!!!!! Wow,l like you, ... I wait for you in my city, l live in big city Dnepropetrovsk, l feel we have much in common and l hope to see you soon. Are you come 14 July in my city?  Are you been in my city before?  How are you imagine your future? write me soon, l like you so much"
"l wait for you in my city. Come. call to me: +380637016***"
"l'm at work and l can give you phone and email agency in my city,they're can help you with apartament.  +380567966263.  office@5starintroductions.com"
"l'm serious girl and l'm looking for serious man for marriage. l don't know who you're and l want to meet you in agency. if you don't want you can search in internet apartment for you. You're Man and you should do it."

 I used 5 stars and found Katya (manager) to be very professional,and up front.  If I can offer my opinion here... I'd say the girl being 22 is quite young,and most likely wants the safety of a first meeting in her agency office. BTW  That's where I met all my dates as well.  She may not know any places to rent, and knows the agency could help you out.

 What was your relationship with her ? You had her contact info, so I assume you had some emails prior to showing up. It could also be she wasn't interested in you ,and that's why you didn't recieve any help from her.  However if she answered you calls it suggests otherwise.

 BTW posting girls phone numbers is wrong. You may want to delete her numbers.

[BetweenLines]

Yes, had a lot of correspondence with her prior to visit as evidenced by the few quotes that change markedly in their enthusiasm! I take your point about her number but I strongly suspect she is not for real. Since I did not bother to go meet her I  can't prove it so I have obscured her number.

Stevie
I understand your point about providing for a woman. I think we have all done that. It is part of a relationship. The problem I have is creating a relationship based in that. A distinction that I have not had to draw in the west as most women can support themselves well enough to choose partners that they are genuinely interested in.

I did not go there because of this added advantage, but to see for myself what the women were actually like, physically, emotionally and culturally. I wanted to know if the agency hype was real and what it might be like to have a relationship with one of them.

[Kuna]

Betweenthelines,

FANTASTIC trip report... I loved it.  That doesn't mean I agree with much at all but I really appreciate your sense of adventure and your ability to actually soak up some of the reality of Ukraine.

Far too often we see men in here who wrap themselves in cotton wool and live with trepidation at every step.

By the way... the guide who tried to rip you off at $85 - etc...  Do I understand you correctly that he charged you $10 to stay with him one night???     HILARIOUS!!!  You actually stayed with someone who had the email address "HunterKiller@i.ua"...  If he was a hunter/killer you should just be relieved you're not the prey.

BTL,  as I said I really enjoyed your TR.  It's a great adventure and even a good example of how to balls up a trip.  I'm guessing you won't be back...  It's a shame but in reality this isn't for everyone.

Congrats on surviving Igor, Slava and the others...  My guess is that the longer a guide is in the business the more likely they are to give poor service.  I guess they get lazy/greedy...

I hope you can at least look back on your trip and appreciate the experience.

Kuna

[Brianinaz]

I was going to write a long trip report which culminated in my recent marriage for the benefit of the folks just beginning this venture but you have hit the high points quite well. The point I would emphasise is avoid the agencies. In my travels there was probably one of all that I visited that was legitimate. I whole heartedly endorse the idea of putting an ad in the local papers. There are two things I would disagree with however. First the idea that a woman should be interested in you even if you live in a cardboard box. I must have asked more than a hundred girls the same question; "why would a beautiful woman like you consider leaving her family and country to be with a foreigner?". I got a lot of BS answers to that question and a few that seemed honest and made sense. There are a lot of good men in the FSU so the drunkard womanizer thing just doesn't hold water nor does the women outnumber men thing. I had one agency person tell me there were 3 women to every man in a particular city as we were walking down the street. I'd been there for several days and walked around town, rode the buses and metro and believe me there was no 3:1 ratio, I had to ask her if she was taking drugs. The as close as you're going to get to accurate is that there are a lot of good men who can't afford to support a family so they don't. They have lovers and relationships but they can't afford the responsibility and for a woman who has a child it is near impossible to find a man who will accept financial responsibility for someone Else's child. So, for you to come along and expect her to love you when you have no more to offer than we'll manage to scrape by doesn't make sense. They are not looking for a sugar daddy like some cheap stripper or something but they are looking for a degree of security. Think about it how many western women are looking for FSU men; not many. Is it because WM are so wonderful; I don't think so.

Second, I must must voice my opinion about Slava. Before doing so because of questions I have seen voiced before I will disclose that I have no business relationship with him, I have no financial interest in his success or failure although as someone I would now consider a friend I hope for success for him in all he does. I met Slava on recommendation of Thor from this board. I was a bit skeptical about putting an ad in the paper and making a trip with that as the only option so I made arrangements to meet some women from a couple of agencies in conjunction with having Slava put an ad in the paper for me. In all honesty I spent a good portion of my time on that first trip to Kharkov with one of the girls from an agency. There was no sales pitch from Slava, he helped with apartment issues for me and the lady who was from out of town, helped with transportation, and provided translation services at hours that conformed to my schedule at a reasonable rate. He also helped with meetings with ladies that responded to my newspaper ad. HERE IS WHERE THE NEW GUYS SHOULD PAY ATTENTION. The ladies I met through the newspaper ad were much different than the ones I met through any agency I have dealt with. These were girls you might meet at work or through a friend. There was no concept of glamor photo's or letters or any of that. They just wanted to meet someone for a genuine relationship. Me, I was just plain lucky. My wife is the managing lawyer of the legal department of a fairly large corporation. She has a great job. She supports her parents. Her daughter goes to private school. She walked by her secretary's desk where the paper with my ad was sitting and called out  of curiosity. WOW, you will not find a girl like that in an agency. I was struck with her from the first time I met her although I did not really share this with Slava. From the first meeting he told me "this is someone special. You will not meet someone like this often". Now you can dicker over $50 or $60 or $100 a night for a flat and dicker over $8 or $10 or $12 an hour for an interpreter but my N=1 experience was one trip found me a woman far beyond anything I could have hoped for and if you look at the total cost of the previous wasted trips It would have been a bargin if I paid him $100 an hour for his time. ANOTHER POINT FOR THE NEW GUYS. You may get lucky and find someone on a shoe string budget but the reality is this will likely be an expensive venture if you are going to be successful.

I have learned that in a country that is dominated by corruption (it cost me 20 grivna to get out of the closet with the customs guy this morning) that an honest what you see is what you get person is rare. Slava falls in that category. He is a business person. He will make a profit. He will not pay your way or have you sleep on the couch in his flat. He will treat you fairly and give you good advice. If you are lucky you may develop a friendship.  He has my without reservation recommendation.

[Brianinaz]

Kuna

I would like to relate that my observations About Slava are are a few hours old; just to bring everyone up to date. 

[GreginGa]

BetweenLines

A very good trip report. You should post more here. Don't worry too much about erasing the numbers.  The decent guides will not mind that you posted their numbers. The other ones,well it doesnt really matter now does it?

This is the kind of trip report that a newbie can sink his teeth into and learn from. To me thats what this is all about.

[groovlstk]

Great account and your observations are those of a veteran FSU traveler. Most guys on their first trip are unable (or unwilling) to look past the adornment and accept the situation for what it is.

Self-honesty and unwillingness to accept anything short of what you set out for are two important qualities and you seem to have both. FWIW, near the end of my search I was also very jaded and wondered if my expectations in a partner were too high. Then I met my wife and almost from the first moment I knew it was worth it, that I'd go through the same BS a million times over just to be with her. Keep digging and you'll find what you're looking for.

Now judging by the responses to another thread, some of you take this as given and argue for its relevance. I can only say that for me, I want a long term relationship to be based on something other than my ability to support my partner, cos if that ever gets interupted by life events, you will find yourself alone in a hurry and dealing with the "life events". Seen it happen more than once.

Don't pay attention to the rationalizations you sometimes see here, you're not asking for too much, IMHO this is what any self-respecting guy should expect.

[Lit_1nce]

Very clinical trip report.. And contrasts with the "trio" who recently did trip reports.

I guess there as many different experiences as there are trips.. but I personally appreciate everyone who takes the time to post their experiences.. good or bad.. and your travel tips on what worked and didn't for you is great stuff.

I'm sure you learned a bit.. and wish you greater success if you decide to continue.

Thanks for the report.

[Thor]

Privet ,

Are u in London now?

I like your TR and also this one. We meet in Kharkov and we shared some exsperiencses from Ukraine . You where a very interesting person and I guess that you will be back in Ukraine later again. Now you know what this is all about, and you will be much more prepared next time you go to Ukraine.

I understand that you was not to happy about Slava. That is a pity, but Slava has been very busy this summer with remodeling his apartment. I think that he has not been able to work so match with his clients this summer. But he will be back! .

[Thor]

I was going to write a long trip report which culminated in my recent marriage for the benefit of the folks just beginning this venture but you have hit the high points quite well. The point I would emphasise is avoid the agencies. In my travels there was probably one of all that I visited that was legitimate. I whole heartedly endorse the idea of putting an ad in the local papers. There are two things I would disagree with however. First the idea that a woman should be interested in you even if you live in a cardboard box. I must have asked more than a hundred girls the same question; "why would a beautiful woman like you consider leaving her family and country to be with a foreigner?". I got a lot of BS answers to that question and a few that seemed honest and made sense. There are a lot of good men in the FSU so the drunkard womanizer thing just doesn't hold water nor does the women outnumber men thing. I had one agency person tell me there were 3 women to every man in a particular city as we were walking down the street. I'd been there for several days and walked around town, rode the buses and metro and believe me there was no 3:1 ratio, I had to ask her if she was taking drugs. The as close as you're going to get to accurate is that there are a lot of good men who can't afford to support a family so they don't. They have lovers and relationships but they can't afford the responsibility and for a woman who has a child it is near impossible to find a man who will accept financial responsibility for someone Else's child. So, for you to come along and expect her to love you when you have no more to offer than we'll manage to scrape by doesn't make sense. They are not looking for a sugar daddy like some cheap stripper or something but they are looking for a degree of security. Think about it how many western women are looking for FSU men; not many. Is it because WM are so wonderful; I don't think so.

Second, I must must voice my opinion about Slava. Before doing so because of questions I have seen voiced before I will disclose that I have no business relationship with him, I have no financial interest in his success or failure although as someone I would now consider a friend I hope for success for him in all he does. I met Slava on recommendation of Thor from this board. I was a bit skeptical about putting an ad in the paper and making a trip with that as the only option so I made arrangements to meet some women from a couple of agencies in conjunction with having Slava put an ad in the paper for me. In all honesty I spent a good portion of my time on that first trip to Kharkov with one of the girls from an agency. There was no sales pitch from Slava, he helped with apartment issues for me and the lady who was from out of town, helped with transportation, and provided translation services at hours that conformed to my schedule at a reasonable rate. He also helped with meetings with ladies that responded to my newspaper ad. HERE IS WHERE THE NEW GUYS SHOULD PAY ATTENTION. The ladies I met through the newspaper ad were much different than the ones I met through any agency I have dealt with. These were girls you might meet at work or through a friend. There was no concept of glamor photo's or letters or any of that. They just wanted to meet someone for a genuine relationship. Me, I was just plain lucky. My wife is the managing lawyer of the legal department of a fairly large corporation. She has a great job. She supports her parents. Her daughter goes to private school. She walked by her secretary's desk where the paper with my ad was sitting and called out  of curiosity. WOW, you will not find a girl like that in an agency. I was struck with her from the first time I met her although I did not really share this with Slava. From the first meeting he told me "this is someone special. You will not meet someone like this often". Now you can dicker over $50 or $60 or $100 a night for a flat and dicker over $8 or $10 or $12 an hour for an interpreter but my N=1 experience was one trip found me a woman far beyond anything I could have hoped for and if you look at the total cost of the previous wasted trips It would have been a bargin if I paid him $100 an hour for his time. ANOTHER POINT FOR THE NEW GUYS. You may get lucky and find someone on a shoe string budget but the reality is this will likely be an expensive venture if you are going to be successful.

I have learned that in a country that is dominated by corruption (it cost me 20 grivna to get out of the closet with the customs guy this morning) that an honest what you see is what you get person is rare. Slava falls in that category. He is a business person. He will make a profit. He will not pay your way or have you sleep on the couch in his flat. He will treat you fairly and give you good advice. If you are lucky you may develop a friendship.  He has my without reservation recommendation.

Brian,

You raise some very good points here. I agree with all you say.

Funny, I see guys come all over from the US to find a girl in Ukraine. Many of them have very limited time for the search for a bride. They spend their hollydays and money to find this girl...Tickets cost from 1500 to 2000 dollar. But when they have come so fare and have so limited time so do they save money on using total unexperienced helpers in Ukraine because they can save 5 dollars or so pr hour . Or argue with people because they have to pay 55 instead of 50 dollar for a flat . Ukrainian girls HATE greedy men, and for many of this girls will it be a total turn of if they feel that the guy is greedy. Everyone that consider to go to FSU to find a girl must be know that the living costs in FSU is not anymore low...It costs more for a lot of things in the FSU compared to the US. My US friend Rich told me that most food are more expensive in Ukraine and the same goes for clothes.

Newbies must serious consider if they have the economy to go to FSU to search for a girl. Most need to go several times before they meet the one. You must pay around 50 dollars for a apartment, if you use agency's so must you pay beetween 50 and 100 dollars for every meeting with a agency girl (50 for the meeting, translator, food and so on..), dayli cost like transportation, food, internet mm.......

Also don't believe the bullshit you read in agency sites that the local men are shit, that the girls are dying to meet a forreign guy, that local men are alcoholics and so on. The situation in FSU has improved a lot since I came to Ukraine first time in 2005. And especially the beautiful girls don't look for forreign guys since they have so many local guys that wants them to.

Look for girls close to your own age. Are you 35 so look for girls from 25 to 35, are you 45 so look for girls from 30 to 40 and so on...Don't believe at all that 18 to 22 year old girls look for forreign men in their 40`s . Time has changed a lot...

BUT if you look for girls closer to your own age, and also girls with a child so will you be successful!!!!!

[Admin]

Very clinical trip report.. And contrasts with the "trio" who recently did trip reports.

I guess there as many different experiences as there are trips.. but I personally appreciate everyone who takes the time to post their experiences.. good or bad.. and your travel tips on what worked and didn't for you is great stuff.

I'm sure you learned a bit.. and wish you greater success if you decide to continue.

Thanks for the report.

I just wanted to also pass along my appreciation for the time and effort of everyone who contributes their reports.

A BIG 

- Dan

[groovlstk]

Very clinical trip report.. And contrasts with the "trio" who recently did trip reports.

I guess there as many different experiences as there are trips.. but I personally appreciate everyone who takes the time to post their experiences.. good or bad.. and your travel tips on what worked and didn't for you is great stuff.

I think the contrasts are fantastic and in no way invalidate the experiences of others who've gone before or who have different impressions. I also believe such impressions evolve over the course of multiple trips.

[BetweenLines]

Thanks for you feedback.
Yes I would go back again, but I would stay at least a month in ONE city and do a newspaper add to develop a relationship and see what the reality of that is like.

I must reiterate that I met 5 or 6 cutes in Kiev, one that I spent some time with and liked very much. Unfortunatly she was not from Ukraine. One that was engaged was a knockout that I am sure I could have made progress with but for that tiny little rock on her finger.

As we all know, relationships take time to build and I just elected to see more of the country so next time I would have a good idea where to focus.

From your comments I think a few of you think I did not have a good time, or that the trip was a bust and that I would never return. Not so. I am just brutally honest with myself about the reality of things. I have read a lot on this forum that was a little... romanticised shall we say. I found it fascinating that one country in the world holds the distinction of being the bride capital and I just had to see the reality for myself.

I was not dissappointed as much as enlightened on this trip. It was what I hoped it would be, a fun adventure.

[Jumper]

Glad you ultimately enjoyed it..
posting from odessa you seemed pretty bored.

Overall I would agree with  many of your observations ..
but i think some of them might change with more trips and experience there.

On  two peoples difinitive word on what  *generous*
 means in random RW profiles..

it is far more likely that the simple explainatin is:
that means exactly what is in any  dictionary.
and NOT that the woman is expecting a man with a 300K salary and for the guy to buy her  a flat.
greedy and generous  are simply character traits, and mean nothing more,
 than the common description??

a generous /caring person, or a a stingy /greedy person.
which would any of us choose?
 (nationality, gender or profile situation is irrelevent?)

sometimes it best not to try and read between the lines ,
as the words just mean exactly what they say.

she wants a man that would be generous of nature,with her ,and any children they had together as a family.



as far as some trip reports being romanticized a bit-

i think it's the general nature of things?

if someone wrote about thier trip to mexico..
likely it would be about   good times /food places,  maybe the interesting people they met
while on vacation, and might "touch" on a bad incident here or there..

but likely it wouldn't delve into the general culture, society , realities of daily life or attitudes of the people there.

likewise most trip reports are about that persons direct experiences with the people met,food/places,  and specific situations ,
not so much on the general culture or daily life of  the citizens there.

[jtrystero]

Between,

First, great job on the trip report.  There is good information in your report.

Beyond that, I sense you learned a lot.  When it comes to agencies, I suspect for most people they will be a disappointment.  But the utility of agencies, as well as the enjoyment of a trip to FSU in general, depends on a lot of particular factors, including preparation, the particular profile of the man, what he is seeking, his expectations, etc.

From your report I take it that next time you would prepare more, spend more time in one place, and rely more on your own efforts to try and meet and cultivate a relationship.

As far as Ukraine being a better place than the West to meet someone special, it depends whom you ask.  Naturally, most of the people who post here either have had success there or are hoping to find success there.  This is a biased forum to say the least.  No question that the agencies are a lot of hype---but that's their business.  Personally, I'm not convinced that FSU is a better place for finding someone special, but it's a question I'm still exploring.

My hunch is that each guy has his own reason for looking to FSU, but I think there are two common ones:

1.  It's not news that many guys are hoping to find a more attractive and probably younger woman there than they have had success with at home;

2.  There is an element of adventure to a search in the FSU that appeals to a lot of guys, especially those who have never lived in major cities or who have come out of several years of a conventional yet failed marriage.

As an add-on to the above, I would say that the typical male argument about women there being more "feminine" or "family-oriented" is a bunch of garbage.  These are euphemisms or rationalizations.
 
Anyway, I have 4 weeks coming up on my next trip there.  I view it as a great vacation as well as a chance to explore and learn some more----and, if I'm lucky, maybe meet someone special.   

Hoping to gain a lot of wisdom..........looks like you did.

[Taz]

I have to jump on the Slava thing here. I think Slava is past his prime for this. Maybe a few years ago he might have been a top choice but not any more. I don't think he has his heart in it anymore. Plus his university job pays him pretty well now so he doesn't need the cash as much.

My impression is he'll do just enough to get buy. While I like him as a person, I couldn't in good conscious recommend him to anyone without making sure they know which of the 2 Slavas you might get. Slava has a ton of experience, insight, ability, etc. but he doesn't have the drive any more. If you lay down wads of cash you might get his enthusiasm level back up as he seems most motivated by $$$ than a desire to do a good job.

I watched how little he did for JD with respect to how much money he spent. It definitely wasn't a good ROI. He was tardy getting the add in. Didn't pre-screen the women hardly at all. In general it was a waste of money for JD to do an add. Conceptually I like the ad idea but the Slava's execution left a lot to be desired.

Slava came highly recommended but the same person that previously recommended him recently told me he would never use him again. I know JD wouldn't either.

There is no doubt though that things have increased in cost. If you want a good reason to learn Russian, just look at the cost of translation. That should give you some impetus to at least learn a little. I've probably saved and easy $5,000 or more because of my Russian ability. I don't spend money on terps. I can easily source my own apartments. I can better haggle with the locals. I'd say its been closer to 10k in savings. That doesn't even factor in how often it has kept me out of trouble and added to my confidence level.

[BetweenLines]

>sometimes it best not to try and read between the lines ,
>as the words just mean exactly what they say.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, as my handle suggests, I am not sure I agree with that when it comes to FSU anything.

In general, business, social relationships, family relationships I would say that is not true either. With friends and personal realtionships it can be true. I often ask for that in my relationships, because I would rather someone just tell me what they really want/need from me than "politely" talk around it.

For the reasons I outlined earlier, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that a good part of the motivation of these women is financial, especially if they are from an agency. Their problem is how to say that without saying "I want a rich guy". The word "generous" does this quite acceptably as it contains just enough ambiguity to slide into a profile.

As I mentioned, I was told in no uncertain terms by two agency people, one the owner, the other a translator that worked for a well know scam agency, that this essentially means "with money".

Without knowing what is in the girls heart, it is possible that it could refer to a character trait as you suggest, but I think it is highly unlikely.

As far as Slava goes, I have nothing bad to say about his service as I did not experience it, but I definatly got the sense that he knew what his time was worth and I would be paying top dollar for a service that he clearly has a lot of experience with.

If I am honest, I am the same the way. I will not take work that a less experienced more "hungry" person might. I take the fat juicy jobs cos they are easier and I make more money. I do not blame him for that, but I am looking for that "hungry" translator that will go the extra mile and enjoy the challenge of creating a new business for themselves. That person I met and listed above.

I also forgot to mention the best experience with a train station employee. I went to buy a ticket in Kharkov and had heard there was a booth for foreigners with english speaking sales agents.

I wandered up and down for a while looking for this booth but I just could not find it.  Finally I called one of the guys and he told me on the right-hand side.  It was a door that led into a small office and above the door there was nothing to indicate that this was for English-speaking people.

Inside was a small sign in English that said train tickets.  A line of people have formed and at the back was a young guy from Ghana.  He I meet wearily warily.  After he spoke on his cell phone in English we began talking and.  He had come to Ukraine to study.  It is cheaper than Europe and not as far to fly.

As we spoke we talked about many of the cultural things I've mentioned here.  He described the people is very cold but as I pointed out the color of his skin probably had more to do with that than anything else.  We talked for about 10 minutes and then I laughed at something he said.  The ticket agent stopped what she was doing angrily looked at me and started barking in Russia.

I knew she was pissed off but I did not know what the problem was.  So I asked you speak English?  She ignored my question and then went back to what she was doing.  My new friend told me that she was very upset that I have been laughing.  We talked about this for a while because I was not sure if it was the act of laughing all the sound of laughing that annoyed her.

Eventually my friends got to the window and spoke good enough Russian and was polite enough to get served with the ticket he wanted.  He then offered to help me.  As I approached the window the ticket agent became very busy with paperwork and calculations and so forth, for about five minutes.

I recognize that I was being punished for daring to laugh but it didn't matter I just continued my conversation with my new friend.  After about five minutes he said something to her.  He used the word in Russian for young girl rather than woman as a way of indicating a gratuity to her.

It didn't matter to me if she took 10 minutes out of 20 minutes I was determined to see if I could get this woman to come up from all that it's there seriousness to something closer to fun and laughter. before my friends could speak in Russian I smiled at her and used my poor Russian to say please and thank you, and then asked for my ticket in English with a big smile.

She began to type away on the computer and look for my ticket and did not seem that angry and more.  My friend then helped me translate as the train I wanted was full.  The next train left the two in the morning but I had a good bunk in a cabin not next to the toilet so I was happy.

We were both polite and smiling and having fun with the translation.  Eventually after I paid for the ticket, we started to leave, and I took about 30 seconds to say thank you over and over, smile, and gently laugh about the experience.

to my astonishment, she started to smile!  It was like the clouds parted and the sun beamed down on that little cubicle she sat in.  Her whole face changed, and she actually looked like life was fun.  I cannot tell you how much of the triumph that was.  We had brought a human being out of the Soviet  robot.

out side we high five each other, and started to walk out all the train station.  30 feet away was a cop that was staring straight at us.  I was ecstatic when I didn't care if he knew it.  I stared him straight in the eye and beamed at him.  He looked like he'd just seen a flying saucer, and didn't know whether to investigate or run.

We walked right by him and into the Metro.  The mood I was in, I wished he had stopped us.  I would love to have spent 10 minutes with my new black friend and a totally humorless former Soviet cop. I bet I could of got him laugh too.

I cannot overstate the value of interacting with people that are living their lives with some degree of joy.  It is hard to fathom how depressing it must be to live in a society where people do not express themselves at a social level.  I have lived in countries where the conditions are similar but not as bad, and after a year or two it's just flat depressing.

I understand there were -- now that smiling people can't be trusted, and that kind words often deceive, but given the choice I know I feel better when there is a little warmth in my daily human interactions, even if they are little superficial.

When traveling in the Far East, especially Buddhist countries, people are very warm.  I never felt insincerity in that warmth.   I suspect that the Soviets rationale for this behavior, has more to do with controlling people than with the insincerity that can be behind open displays of joy and affection.

[Shadow]

Betweenthelines, your experience spot-on, just the judgement you make from it is different.
People in Russia do not smile if they have no reason to. You gave someone reason to smile, and the result was that you got what you wanted. But people are honest in their emotions. If they sit in their small office all day listening to complaints and impolite people, what is their reason to smile? And if they here some loud guys in a foreign language talking and laughingabout something they do not understand, that might be annoying. You did right to, in spite of the obvious action, continue to be polite and friendly. That broke the ice in understanding you were not making fun of people, but just having fun on your trip.

Regarding the 'generous' and 'having money' you should understand that in many families in the FSU both partners have to work to get the family feeded, and special things are hard to get or buy. Women looking for Western men want a man who can provide for the family, and not just live hand to mouth. This is something different from looking for a man who has money to burn.

[BetweenLines]

Shadow,

I understand your point about "needed" things, and it may be valid, but it is still justification for a relationship based on financial need rather than free choice. In my not so humble opinion, that can NEVER work long term. Social of financial inequity is barrier to a solid foundation. That does not mean that a woman with little or no money that is content to live on little or no money is automatically precluded, but IF she is not able to live at that level and is seeking a relationship with you to address that, it is.

This is as true in the west as the east. I see some of my wealthy friends with women that I know will dump them faster than a bad dose if the money flow constricts the lifestyle to which they aspire. Seen it happen in the dot com bust. All of a sudden "things arn't working out". Problems arise in situations that werenot a problem when lubricated with enough cash before. etc etc. Who needs that.

I do accept that some women become loyal and are willing to go through the rough times, but in my experience, 995 of the ones that had their eye on your wallet to start with will bail.

You don't need to see the word generous to get that message of course. A few dates can tell fairly quickly. As one board member said, if she is willing to just walk around with you then she likes you. If She wants the full Sushi dinner then watch out.

[Brianinaz]

BTL

I don't want to belabor the point but there is a difference between a woman who is eyeing your wallet and one who wants security. As you noted if you're being directed towards the best restaurants and going for a walk means going to the mall to shop that's not a girl you want to be involved with. I wouldn't consider a girl who advertises she is looking for a generous man. On the other hand my impression is across the board these ladies want to feel that you can provide for them, not lavish them with gifts but provide for them and give them a sense of security.

Taz

There must be 2 people working under the name of Slava because my experience was completely opposite of what you described. He routinely went out of his way for me and his degree of enthusiasm sometimes was greater than my own. Maybe there is a difference in expectations. He did everything I expected and more. He certainly did everything he said he would. I was not looking for someone with a book full of profiles to pre screen. I wanted to but an ad in the paper a month or so before my trip so I could get to know some of them before the trip (the letter writing picture looking state of mind dies hard). He advised against it but followed my wishes. And it was pretty much a waste of time. The point of running an ad is the right here and right now nature of it. I have found time and time again that you can't get to know someone from letters. The person that shows up for a meeting is always different from the one your imagination created from the letters. So as far as screening, you put the ad in the paper just before you arrive, running through while you are there, the girl calls you find out age, height, weight, kids and ages, smoking or not, and after that I don't see much value in screening. A picture is sometimes helpful but they can also be misleading. That's what Slava did for me, put the ad in the paper, answered the calls and took down the age etc info, inquired about education and job. Gave the girl some basic information about me, and then asked me if I wanted to meet her. If the answer was yes then he arranged a meeting and was there to translate. He was there anytime I needed him but didn't in anyway spend time "running up the clock". I found that he "cut the cord" at just the right time. I was a little nervous about the timing at the time but in retrospect the timing was perfect. I could have interpreted his pushing me along as him being too busy but in reality he had a good handle on when 3 was a crowd. From me he gets two thumbs up and 5 stars. I can't emphasise enough I would have never met a woman like my wife through an agency (no disrespect intended to anyone who met their SO through an agency)

[groovlstk]

I do accept that some women become loyal and are willing to go through the rough times, but in my experience, 995 of the ones that had their eye on your wallet to start with will bail.

It seems to me that this is an area where a lot of guys throw caution to the wind and believe that loyalty and love will follow as long as they are a good husband and provider. If only things were that simple...