A Wallet on Legs?

[Leslie]

 

Something happened today which I feel sums up the feelings most Russians (and Ukrainians) have about guys like us.

Basically we are just a wallet (pocket book) on legs.  The wallet has arms - hey it must have to give away $100 bills but no head because we are supposed to offer to money for any reason and of course never ask for it back!

Maybe I should back track a bit.  When I was single and searching I learnt the hard way not to try to buy a womans love.  It is just about the stupidest way to approach this endeavor.  Been there. Done that. Worn the "Humiliated" Tee Shirt.

My wife certainly did not marry me for the money I spent on her - Cos I spent very little. No big gifts. No foreign holidays.  We did spend a lot of time together though and it costs a bundle in lost earnings but that is a different story.

However to most of our friends and family I became the wallet on legs as soon as we married.  Now my wifes parents are dead so I don't reckon we owe anyone else a living but that is not the way they think.  I have more money than they do.  I should give them money....

My wifes brothers first wife decided that her daughters future was in UK.  I have never even met this woman but she made persistent claims that I should pay for her daughter to come to UK.  I should house, feed and educate her.

Well I managed to side step this request.  I replied that I would support a visa application and that Katya could stay with us but her mother would have to pay for the air fare.  Smart move.  She could not call me a skin flint but I knew there was no chance that she could pay for the air fare.....

Then perhaps our best friend (Sergei) telephoned me and asked to borrow a substantial amount of money supposedly to start a business.  I asked him to e-mail me a business plan outlining his proposals and estimating the cash flow.  Never heard from him again.  Wallets on legs should not have brains!!

My wifes only close family is her brother and his actions today have prompted this thread.  I have been generous with him.  Couple of hundred bucks her and there.  Life has been hard since their father died.  Last year he asked to borrow money and I lent it.  Last week he asked to borrow more ostensibly to modernize his flat.

I baulked.  He has never ever offered to pay me back one cent.  He knows I cannot demand repayment.  After all I am married to his sister.  So I discussed this situation at length with my wife.  We agreed not to lend more money but to send a gift of $100.

I just got off the phone with her brother.  I am a greedy - why won't I lend the money!

Simple I say - you will never pay it back.

He then says he has friends who will lend him this money.  I am family and won't.

Fine I say.  Borrow the money from your friends.

Then he shouts that he will never borrow money from me again in the future!!

Loooong silence from me.

He shouts "You can keep your money!!"

I reply "Well you know where the Western Union office is.  Send it back".

End of conversation.

I find this situation very sad.  He has forced my wife into taking sides. Of course he does not realize that this was OUR view.  My wife will be a British citizen soon.  Our child already is.  She has never seen me as a wallet on legs!

Maybe we can spend our summer holidays somewhere civilized in future....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KenC]

Leslie,

That sucks man.  Lending money to relatives is a touchy subject.  Many many years ago, I lent my brother $300.  I knew he would never pay it back.  My first wife bugged me and bugged me to get the money from him.  I told her that I hoped he never paid it back.  "Why?", she asked.  Because for $300, I will never ever have to loan him money again!  (He never paid it back, nor did I ever loan him again)

I haven't experienced the "walking wallet" syndrom you describe, but it has effected our family, once removed.  My in-laws, in Russia, have a pretty good life.  They aren't rich, but do well for themselves.  Now that they have a daughter in America and have visited her often, their relatives, neighbors and friends perceive them as rich.  Some of the bizzare logic that this group has used in order to try and guilt payment or loans from my in laws is down right funny.  I do feel bad though, to have put them in this uncomfortable position.

KenC

[Journeyman]

Leslie,

I sympathize.  Plenty of RW have viewed me in this way (although not their families -- not yet).  Not having yet stepped into marriage with a RW, what you describe is something I need to look forward to. I doesn't sound like much fun.  

I can say that I have heard several stories over the years from Russian people about other Russian people (usually relatives) asking to "borrowing money."  Recounting such stories seems to stir much resentment towards those often deadbeat relatives.  But I've heard both sides -- borrowers and lenders.  Quite consistently, the borrowers seem to have little sense of guilt for not repaying.  Again, this is among Russians.  

A few of the RW I've dated have had no problem asking me for hundreds of dollars in cash.  One gal I had met for a second visit came right out and asked me to give her $1000 for tuition.  That was after we had a major disagreement, and in hindsight, signalled what was apparently her exit strategy.  Another gal I dated for several months decided to stop working, and told me that I should give her a monthly stipend of a couple of hundred dollars, "because I was a man."  Again, in hindsight, that should have been a signalling of her exit strategy for our relationship.  To her I was, as you put it, a "wallet on legs."

I've heard the idea many times that, if you marry a RW, you are also marrying her family.  While I think that is always true to some extent (even in the west), I would be appalled if distant relatives started holding out their hand for a handout.  On the other hand, I have also heard a number of stories about Russian families who would never think of such a thing (asking for money from their western son-in-law).  

There are definitely some "primitive" ways of thinking about money in the FSU.  As I recall, a number of RW posting here and elsewhere, have even admitted as such.

Journeyman

[Bruno]

Wallets on legs !!! Yes, sometime, i feel this with FSU people... but it is not a big problem, usually the wallet is already empty and they call me a greedy European

[BC]

Not directed to any particular poster:

It is a quite common and universal phenomenon when someone has or is perceived to have money and not limited to folks in FSU.

Ask anyone who has (or has had) real money about family, friends, friends of friends etc that seem to creep out of corners with such requests.  I'm sure TigerPaws for example has had plenty such experiences that are not RW related.

Call it a side effect of our presence. Considering those 'magic' cards that produce cash on demand and loads of money  thrown out just to find a wife a gazillion miles away,(what a ridiculous concept) who can really blame them?.. especially since we do so little to inform them otherwise, sometimes even using our 'perceived wealth' as a trump card to gain attentions we wouldn't get at home.

[Michelangelo]

sometimes even using our 'perceived wealth' as a trump card to gain attentions we wouldn't get at home.

I guess the key word is "perceived."  In reality, I have several millionaire friends and several "famous" friends who always get special attention.  Plus, they are always expected to pick up the dinner tab   So maybe wallets are wallets, be it in the US or Ukraine?

[KenC]

since we do so little to inform them otherwise, sometimes even using our 'perceived wealth' as a trump card to gain attentions we wouldn't get at home.

This is a great point you make.  So many AM "play rich" while visiting the fsu, that it is no suprise that many RW come over expecting much more than what is the true reality.  It is easy to be Daddy Warbucks in the fsu, while it is a lot more difficult here.  Kind of a "bait & switch" game, isn't it? 

KenC

[Leslie]

BC,

I have serious issues with this viewpoint -

"Call it a side effect of our presence. Considering those 'magic' cards that produce cash on demand and loads of money thrown out just to find a wife a gazillion miles away,(what a ridiculous concept) who can really blame them?.. especially since we do so little to inform them otherwise, sometimes even using our 'perceived wealth' as a trump card to gain attentions we wouldn't get at home."

I agree that even if you don't throw money around you will be perceived as rich.  Nothing that you can do about that. I did act like a tourist at the begining of my search and as jb will confirm I was taken for a ride.  That was my fault.  I was stupid. Can I blame people for doing this. Oh yes I can. There is NO moral relativism about this behavior.  It is'nt down to cultural differences.  IT IS JUST PLAIN WRONG. 

"Friends" who always expect you to pick up the tab are not your friends they are merely using you.

People who borrow money with no intention of ever repaying it are thieves.

 

 


 

[BC]

Leslie,

Yes it is wrong. My 'not to blame' comment was intended more to negate interpretation that this phenomenon is FSU related than to justify reactions you (and I) have experienced.

I've experienced how money can affect relationships and friendships but have found the ability to place a relationship or friendship above money is worth a lot more in the end.

I won't 'buy' a friend nor will I sell him a car, but I do realize that money and sex are temptations few can resist.

Nobody's perfect.

I leaned years ago that I never lend money to people, friends or family. Unless I do not like them as this is the best way to assure you never see or hear from them again:).

This is an interesting thread I really found the opening quite intriguing. I can't believe this fella was trying to take you for all he could. I personally would never have a problem with this behavior. I don't wear kid gloves. Tell him to get a job! Tell him you have a family to support and if he thinks his needs are more important than your wife and childs he is sadly mistaken. If your wife takes his side tell her to get a job, work all day and send her check to Russia! There is no excuse to such rude behavior by this man and you should do just as you did and feel good about it bro!

Now I am not stingy and I will help those I can within reason. For example my fiancee's mom is very poor and in bad health. Leaving her behind is probably the most difficult part of the transition for my gal. Knowing this I paid the fee to have a landline phone installed at her mothers and I will pay the monthly bill. This way they can talk on the phone as much as they like. Did either on ask for this, never! I guess it just depends on the person.

They call you guys greedy, lol! Find a mirror buddy and call a spade a spade!

[Bruno]

[user=336]doudis2[/user] wrote:

If your wife takes his side tell her to get a job, work all day and send her check to Russia!

Certainly not... if she work, some expense will raise... Specially here in Belgium, two income in the same home lead to more tax... if children, children garden need to be pay since the early and late hours of work... and some professional expense are added to the home budget...

Of course, she can send some money but if she work, she need participate in the budget of the home...

What you propose is a other classical scam used a lot with European people... the FSU woman marry a European... work in Europe and send all her money in FSU... after some year, she have spare enough in FSU for start a business... she divorce and return in her country where she can start a new life with a enough high status...

In so case, you are not a wallet but a hotel ( a free one )... same with a very little income here ( cleaning woman by example ), a woman who send all his money to FSU without local expense can spare more of 75000 euro in 5 year... enough for start a new very good life in FSU...

I am maybe parano but if a woman say me that she wish send in FSU all the money she go earn in Belgium... i don't marry her and search a other one...

[RacerX]

Well, I've noticed that close Russian families are quite liberal in "lending" money (they really don't expect to get it back) to each other.  We don't know your brother in law's situation, but offhand I think you need to be careful that your are not perceived as being misery. I suspect the financial disparity in your respective incomes is vast, and if nothing else, it will probably make TWO people happy and say good things about you.

I agree with you Bruno. But for me none of these things are of concern at all. I know my gal very, very well and I am positive that her/our love is sincere. I have no worries whatsoever of any type of scams. As for my "she should work comment" it really is not a solution as I would not let her send all her money to Russia anyway. If she wants to support her family in Russia with our families funds she is marrying the wrong guy. I have plenty of folks in my own family I could be supporting as well. I will will not support the lazy I do not care who they are.

I guess for the rich folks this is all moot, but I work for a living not far from paycheck to paycheck. It has been very difficult to finance this little operation from the get go. And no I did not intentionally set out to find a Russian wife, it just happened the way it is supposed to. What can I say I cannot help whom I fall in love with. I just have to do whatever I can to bring us together (14 days until her interview).

For those who do end up with a woman who has ulterior motives I wish you the best of luck but in the end she must be with you for 2 years to stay here so remember you are getting something out of the deal as well. I mean living as man and wife does have some perks:)! I only hope everyone can feel the way we do, it is awesome! Good luck guys!

[Bruno]

Doudis, it was not the problem to send some little money for help russian family... but i see it more like a gift, not a obligation... when i was married, i have not send a lot of money but several package with thing the parents cannot find in them city... each year, around christmas, i have send the half of my 13 month ( end jaar premie ), around 500 euro... they was happy because it was almost two month of income for them... and at a difficult periode where they need buy several gift for the rest of family...

Myself, i life confortable with my income, i am able to spare 50% each month but when i was married with child, 100% of my ressource was needed... specialy for the child with the private school... very expensive... the process itself i nothing, the expense are big during the first two year...

About be scammed, don't be so positif... i have never think that what have happen to me was possible... no big fight, all was enough good... all the true have come during the divorce... now, i give always my trust to women, but not at 100%...

[dostogirl]

Laslie, I am Russian myself and a lot of my relatives and friends see me as a "wallet on legs". Unfortunately a lot of Russians do not know anything about real life here, in the States. They think an average American makes 5K a month (that's what my friends told me and they were very much surprized when I told them it's not true).  They think money is easy to make, so they expect us, those who live in the US, to share the fortune of being rich. Since I moved to the States I broke with all my friends. The reason - they wanted more expensive presents, more financial help. They knew my situation here, I was studying and working at the same time and didn't have much money to spend, but they chose not to bother, they just asked. Same with my relatives, my cousins asking for $400 phones or $500 rings. So what did I do? I stopped calling them, I stopped sending presents, just an occasional card for Xmas. I keep in contact with my mom, she is the only one I spend money on. You have to be careful, the more money you give, the more they see you as a bag full of money.  You have to talk to your wife and decide what you are going to do, cos it's just the beginning. It may cause a lot of problems between your wife and you.

Another story. A friend of mine married a foreigner and moved to another country. She got a job and worked very hard to make money, as well as her husband. She couldn't afford a phone or extra clothes. She was saving money for a house. Her mom wanted to move to another place back in Russia and needed money. She told my friend she will buy a new house with my friend's money and then upon selling the old house, will give the money back. My friend got all the money she had and also asked her husband to loan some money, which he did. He took out a big sum of money (20k) out of his bussiness without anyone knowing, cos he thought he'll get it back soon. Guess what? Right, the mom didn't want to give the money back. She told her own daughter! that this is the money for all the trouble she spend bringning her up back in Russia. The girl got screwed, her husband wanted to divorce her, cos he though it was all a set up. Anyway..the thing is that they are her relatives...it doesn't mean anything, it won't protect her and you from being used.

[acrzybear]

dostogirl

 Let me be one of the first to welcome you to RWD, it's good to have another perspective on this mind boggeling subject

[PeeWee]

dostogirl

 Let me be one of the first to welcome you to RWD, it's good to have another perspective on this mind boggeling subject

I can be called both cheap and generous in the same day, by Larrisa. When it comes to cash on hand, she has much more than I do. She has 3 credit cards as well. Twice she has asked to borrow money and twice she has not repaid it. Although there are promises to do so many times over, so she does remember that she "borrowed" it. I have come to the conclusion that the Russian concept of loan and our concept of loan is two different things. They will not say to you, "give me money because you have more than I do at the moment." That would be impolite. So the ask for the loan. Now if you don't loan the money they you are "cheap." If you do loan the money you probably won't see it again. So what do you do?

With lara I have come to look upon it as an investment, or sorts. I may or I may not see the money but I cannot complain to her that she has not paid her loan, otherwise the insult is delivered, followed by the cold shoulder, and then the, "I don't need your money! I can do it by myself! Thank you very much!" and a very final, "Goodbye!" I see it as a temporary problem. One day she will be my wife and then the debt is forgiven anyway, as it is with AW. Many times when we marry a AW we get to pay off the massive credit card debt that she has amassed, do we not? So what is the difference?

With the family I would try to draw the line. You may as well just send a monthly wage. You remember what happened to the owner of the New England Pats? He met Putin, showed him his Super Bowl ring. Putin examines it and then puts it into his pocket. Never was it told to Putin that the ring was being given to him. But to a Russian it is implied that if you hand them something then it is theirs to keep. We would give it back. I had it happen with lara. I had a bag of rings and necklaces. I did not know which one she would like so I showed them all to her. I was going to let her choose one or two and in so doing she would receive something that she liked. Wrong thinking! She got very excieted and the proceeded to scoop the entire lot from off of the table and into her purse. I learned quickly, that day, how to gift give.

PeeWee  

Very interesting cultural difference here to be sure. I can relate to the Russian folks thinking that we are rich. After all they have heard this from their government for years. Also I can relate to those in your family that are doing well should help those that are not, no problem. But what I have trouble with is someone who expects to be taken care of just for being a "new" relative. Sorry but I will take care of my wife as I know she will do her best to take care of me but her brother. Dude you don't give me what my wife can, nor would I want it if you could! Like I said get a job. These folks need to realize that yes there are many Americans that are doing quite well financially, but they also need know know that for most it was earned not bestowed. I for one have to work amy butt of to make a living and I'm not complaining. So if you want something form me you must earn it just like I had to earn it. An outstretched hand will only get you a handshake, lol.

Bruno I do not know your entire situation , but I feel for you bro. I too have had some bad experiences in my love life, but that is the nature of the game. We give and we receive. Everybody is in it for something. We all need to get something out of our relationships. Let me ask you was it good for you while it lasted? Were you happy? If so then you got something out of it as well. To be blunt let me put it this way. If my girl can come here and make me totally believe that she loves me the way she has me convinced she does now and if the loving is as incredible as I remember it, for the next 2 years then by God more power to her. I really believe in my heart that she is sincere, We want the same things so much, a family and happiness. But in the end if she leaves me with a green card after 2 years well I will of course be sad. Then again to have had such a wonderful woman for 2 days has been my great fortune but to have her for two years will be pure ecstasy. So Bruno my friend I will just continue to believe in her with zero doubt until the moment she gives me reason to think otherwise. She deserves this much at least. But thank you for the warning, I'd rather go into this eyes wide open then half shut.

 

 

 

[Bruno]

[user=336]doudis2[/user] wrote:

Bruno I do not know your entire situation , but I feel for you bro. I too have had some bad experiences in my love life, but that is the nature of the game. We give and we receive. Everybody is in it for something.

Don't worry for me, i am a positif guy ... and during my 5 year of marriage, i was enough lucky... the difforce was the real problem... and specialy about her daughter... i have grow up a almost baby to a young child... and our law give me no right to visit her since i am not the genetor... this only was the difficult part...

 We all need to get something out of our relationships. Let me ask you was it good for you while it lasted? Were you happy?

Yes

 If so then you got something out of it as well. To be blunt let me put it this way. If my girl can come here and make me totally believe that she loves me the way she has me convinced she does now and if the loving is as incredible as I remember it, for the next 2 years then by God more power to her. I really believe in my heart that she is sincere, We want the same things so much, a family and happiness. But in the end if she leaves me with a green card after 2 years well I will of course be sad. Then again to have had such a wonderful woman for 2 days has been my great fortune but to have her for two years will be pure ecstasy.

I understand your logic... but normaly, with time, a family is not only two people, child can become a part of these family... of course, in your case, if you make own child together, i am sure that lawer will give you some right for visit... but for these who marry women with already a young child, the risk is more high...

So Bruno my friend I will just continue to believe in her with zero doubt until the moment she gives me reason to think otherwise. She deserves this much at least. But thank you for the warning, I'd rather go into this eyes wide open then half shut.

It is not really a warning... what i have know is not the norm... it is only something that can happen... and really, we have the same risk when we date local woman... it can be a local woman who use a man for raise his personal standing... a relation is always based on a minimum of trust and risk always exist... love relation is something for adventurer... these quest to great pleasure have always some risk... a little like extreme sport... big risk but great pleasure...

[MandM]

I guess finances are one of the most sensitive matters in any relationship anyway - so many 'love boats' get crushed because of money, or the lack of it. But when one of the partners is wealthy and another one has plenty of poor and demanding relatives, does he have to help? And if yes, to what extent?

It is true that a concept of a loan is totally different in Russia. Very often you would 'lend' money to someone and you don't expect to get it back (normally it wouldn't be a large amount.)  It is a common practice between family members, or close friends, and normally works both ways. Of course, some people would take advantage, but only those with low morals.


I was shocked to read one of the previous posts where someone's friendships and family connections were broken because of money. It is very sad, but I strongly disagree that it is normal. I have many friends back home and though I've been living here for 5 years now and I am more financially secure than most of them, having a good job and a property, I NEVER felt that they expect anything from me (apart from a phone call on their birthdays and meeting up for a beer and a chat every time I visit Russia.) I am embarrassed to say, but all of my male friends still insist on paying for me in restaurants! The presents I bring them are always enough and are appreciated. Every time I go back I get presents from my family and friends for my birthday (even if it was months ago).  I was very touched by my grandma, who gave me 2000 roubles, her month's pension, as a gift for my birthday this summer. I can't describe the feeling of taking that money from her hard-worked, old hands, but how could you refuse a gift like that when it's coming from the heart?!

I do not send money to my family as they don't need it (yet). I do occasionally send money to my friend in Ukraine, because I know how hard she works and how little she gets. Never, ever has she accepted it without a fight. She always tells me off for sending it and says she feels embarrassed accepting it.

As for people stitching you up, it can happen anywhere. My dearest British ex borrowed a lot of $$ from my parents and I am still fighting to get it back (he conveniently forgot it). So, there are plenty of a****s in every nation, waiting to get rich at somebody else's expense!

I think your family and your real friends, who value you as a person and value your friendship, would never demand or expect money from you or your partner. That is, of course, only if the word 'integrity' enters into their vocabulary!

[dostogirl]

dostogirl

 Let me be one of the first to welcome you to RWD, it's good to have another perspective on this mind boggeling subject

 

Thanks s lot.  

[Leslie]

Hi,

There have been some real good replies that I would like to comment on :-

Dostogirl,

I can relate to what you say -

"They think money is easy to make, so they expect us, those who live in the US, to share the fortune of being rich. Since I moved to the States I broke with all my friends. The reason - they wanted more expensive presents, more financial help. They knew my situation here, I was studying and working at the same time and didn't have much money to spend, but they chose not to bother, they just asked. Same with my relatives, my cousins asking for $400 phones or $500 rings. So what did I do? I stopped calling them, I stopped sending presents, just an occasional card for Xmas. I keep in contact with my mom, she is the only one I spend money on. You have to be careful, the more money you give, the more they see you as a bag full of money. "

This has been my experience with the majority of our friends in Russia and Ukraine.  These people are not our friends anymore.  Period.

My wife's brother is another matter.  We don't want to fall out. He will just have to accept that I am not going to lend him money because he will never pay it back.  He can think what he likes of me.  It won't change anything.  I am not a "white bird" !!

M&M,

You are also correct.  Some of my wife's friends would never dream of acting this way and some are poor.  Living on 200 dollars a month and way too proud to sponge off their friends.

For the guys, 

This is a joint decision.  It would be pointless if it only came from me.

  

 

[anono]

leslie, good to see you posting again. thanks for the picture of your little "stinker" (inside joke fellas)..

interesting thread. i have one brother in my large family who has borrowed money from everyone but me. he knows i am not stupid enough to do so. he has not and never will pay a cent back and he is in his 50's.

my TR borders on some of this topic because i am blasting some of the men for being foolish (like i was) with their money.

it is no wonder to me why we are perceived as walking wallets by our actions here.

[dostogirl]

My wife's brother is another matter. We don't want to fall out. He will just have to accept that I am not going to lend him money

seems like a good decision

[Zhena]

Well,guys,let me to explain an another point of view.

Yes,many girls who looking for a foreigner husband,expect him to give her the gifts and some money(it depends-some girls want alot,some a little). I had many arguments with the russian brides on our forum. Their point: no need to change ur life for worse,only for better. Whats the use to go in usa,for example,if here u have a better life than will have there? If ur husband is greedy ,how will u live the first time in another country,where ull be absolutely dependent from ur husband ? I must to say,they are right from one side. But every situation is unique. Personally I never looked at my fiancee as a walking wallet. Though I am not rich. I am a doctor,but my income is too low. And when he proposed me a help,by himself,it was so pleasant for me. It showed me,at first,his attitude and that he willing to care about me. I am generous by myself,and I would like to give him many gifts as well. I did what I could. Yes ,I accepted his help:) But I appreciate and love him only more because of that. Because it shows him as a person. IMHO.