Ukraine Sevastopol as Future Target

[Ronnie]

Now here's a bizarre twist...Tymoshenko siding with Moscow?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7568376.stm

[wxman]

Now here's a bizarre twist...Tymoshenko siding with Moscow?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7568376.stm

How much more crazy can Ukrainian politics get? Yanukovich must be loving it. He's keeping quiet while the 2 pro west candidates sling mud at each other. I don't know why Ukraine is fearing Russia will get involved in their politics. Russia won't have to lift a finger or say a word. The sniping between Tymoshenko and Yushencko will probably give the presidency to Yanukovich who will in turn bring Ukraine back closer to Russia.

[I/O]

Tymoshenko siding with Moscow?

She's simply putin' it where it pays best. Hmm did I just say what I think I said?

I/O

[Misha]

How much more crazy can Ukrainian politics get? Yanukovich must be loving it. He's keeping quiet while the 2 pro west candidates sling mud at each other. I don't know why Ukraine is fearing Russia will get involved in their politics. Russia won't have to lift a finger or say a word. The sniping between Tymoshenko and Yushencko will probably give the presidency to Yanukovich who will in turn bring Ukraine back closer to Russia.

Democracy is such a messy thing: you don't know who is going to win and politicians must actually campaign to win. This is, of course, has been stamped out in Russia where elections are decided well in advance.

[kievstar]

Russian agency women have great qualities but a lot of them are very insecure.  That is why a more supportive and controlling man  does well with Russian agency girls.

[Shadow]

Democracy is such a messy thing: you don't know who is going to win and politicians must actually campaign to win. This is, of course, has been stamped out in Russia where elections are decided well in advance.

Democracy is in trouble when the majority of the people is against it. 

[Misha]

Democracy is in trouble when the majority of the people is against it. 

Well, a true democracy allows people to be against it and to later change their minds.

[Shadow]

Well, a true democracy allows people to be against it and to later change their minds.

Agreed. But what system should be followed if the majority of the people do no wish to follow democracy ?

[Misha]

Agreed. But what system should be followed if the majority of the people do no wish to follow democracy ?

Well, I do not believe that this is ever the case. States rarely abandon democracy, except in the case of weak democracies where a minority usurps power and then eliminates democracy and uses propaganda to work on convincing the population as to how much better off they are having lost their democratic rights. 

[OlgaH]

Sevastopol will become a NATO base soon after the Russians leave in 2017. 

June 16, 2008
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/16/europe/nato.php
According to polls conducted recently by the independent Democratic Initiatives Foundation in Kiev, 59 percent of Ukrainians would vote against joining NATO, up from 53 percent last December, while 22 percent would vote in favor, down from 32 percent.

We will see what democracy in Ukraine is worth 

BTW who will pay for gas? NATO?

[Shadow]

Well, I do not believe that this is ever the case. States rarely abandon democracy, except in the case of weak democracies where a minority usurps power and then eliminates democracy and uses propaganda to work on convincing the population as to how much better off they are having lost their democratic rights. 

Example : Algeria.
The government cancelled elections because of fears there would be a Muslim fundamentalist party winning the elections.
By this the government, who had been chosen, abandoned democracy because of fear democracy would lead to a regime that might eliminate is.

Example : Iraq.
Would it be possible for supporters of the old regime to create a democratic party and get elected as government ?

Example : Russia.
There is no doubt that the president would have been chosen in a fully democratic election. Still the lack of opposition is blamed not on the people's satisfaction with the current leadership but on the suppression of opposition.

Example : USA.
Due to the system of election it is possible and has happened that the candidate that got the majority of votes when looked nation wide still lost the elections.

Example : Netherlands.
Due to the large number of parties, the only way a government can be formed is by cooperation between socialists and conservatives, with a religion-based right wing as support to get majority.

Example : Saudi-Arabia.
They have a Royal family ruling, and regularly enforcing the Islamic laws. However they are seen as close ally.

Example : China.
In spite of the communist system, there is seldom any pointing towards China for expanding their influence.


Unlike many people believe, there is not just one system of democracy, and the ways in which it works are vastly different.
There for one should not look at the system of government and put blame on it being different from others.
The most democratic country in the world is Switzerland. they actually decide all important issues by personal voting.

[Misha]

We will see what democracy in Ukraine is worth 

BTW who will pay for gas? NATO?

Well, the challenge that Ukraine faces is modernizing its economy, and making itself more energy efficient. Once it does this, then it will have more than enough money to pay for its gas.

[OlgaH]

Well, the challenge that Ukraine faces is modernizing its economy, and making itself more energy efficient. Once it does this, then it will have more than enough money to pay for its gas.

May god speed them 

Accoding to the data for July 2008 the debt of Ukraine for gas is more than $2 billion

[Misha]

Example : Algeria.
The government cancelled elections because of fears there would be a Muslim fundamentalist party winning the elections.
By this the government, who had been chosen, abandoned democracy because of fear democracy would lead to a regime that might eliminate is.

Well, Algeria could hardly be a model of democracy and the growth of the fundamentalist party was certainly not helped by the actions of the generals. 

Example : Iraq.
Would it be possible for supporters of the old regime to create a democratic party and get elected as government?

No, because they are a minority. The old regime was a classic case of a minority rejecting democracy because it would have left them out of power.

Example : Russia.
There is no doubt that the president would have been chosen in a fully democratic election. Still the lack of opposition is blamed not on the people's satisfaction with the current leadership but on the suppression of opposition.

Maybe, but then again we don't know because the regime spent years instituting policies that undermined other parties and ensured that the main media (television) would sing the praises of Putin and his hand-picked successor.

Example : USA.
Due to the system of election it is possible and has happened that the candidate that got the majority of votes when looked nation wide still lost the elections.

Yes, but the electorate always gets a chance to defeat the party in power in the next elections.

Example : Netherlands.
Due to the large number of parties, the only way a government can be formed is by cooperation between socialists and conservatives, with a religion-based right wing as support to get majority.

And, how is this not democratic? Canada is now governed by a party that does not have a majority and requires the support of other parties to pass legislation. However, everybody knows that there will be new elections at some point.

Example : Saudi-Arabia.
They have a Royal family ruling, and regularly enforcing the Islamic laws. However they are seen as close ally.

Well, I certainly would not count it as democratic.

Example : China.
In spite of the communist system, there is seldom any pointing towards China for expanding their influence.

There is seldom any pointing towards China for expanding their influence? And, what about Tibet? China is criticized for its invasion and annexation of Tibet. True, there is little the West can do at the moment, but it is not as if the rest of the world is completely indifferent.

Unlike many people believe, there is not just one system of democracy, and the ways in which it works are vastly different.

And, where exactly did I say that there was only one model? However, democracies do share certain characteristics: free elections whereby the party (or coalition of parties) in power can lose; a relatively free press, and basic rights and freedoms such as the right of assembly and the right to critique the government in power. 

[Misha]

May god speed them 

Accoding to the data for July 2008 the debt of Ukraine for gas is more than $2 billion

According to Wikipedia, Ukraine has a population of 46,710,815 people. Divide $2 billion by the population of Ukraine and that give you $42.82 per person. Somehow, I think Ukraine won't be driven into bankruptcy because of the monies owed to GAZPROM for its debt. I have yet to see that Ukraine is refusing to pay Russia for the natural gas it buys from it.

[Shadow]

ere exactly did I say that there was only one model? However, democracies do share certain characteristics: free elections whereby the party (or coalition of parties) in power can lose; a relatively free press, and basic rights and freedoms such as the right of assembly and the right to critique the government in power. 

Can the power lose in Russia : Yes. Yeltsin was elected by the power of the people.
Is there a relatively free press in Russia : in relation to what ? China, America, Iran ? But yes there is relatively free press, although it has limits.
Right of assembly and critique the government in power: Strange enough, Russia does have it. The Communist party holds regular public demonstrations that are not interefered with. There is just one party that seems to 'forget' to ask permissions or breaks demonstration rules, and then has enough camera's standby to show the world.

In every country the government has the right to set limits, and the limits differ by country.

Perhaps there is one cultural difference that I have come to appreciate and that is not clear for many people.
In FSU nations, words are strong in their meaning, and people have to answer for them.

In Western countries people are much more loose in using language. Many people will call their leaders out to be idiots, but would not dare to call them such face to face. In the FSU if you believe your leader is an idiot, it reflects on you as the people who chose an idiot to be a leader.

[Misha]

Can the power lose in Russia : Yes. Yeltsin was elected by the power of the people.

Yes, he was. Sadly, what democracy existed has been progressively curtailed.

Is there a relatively free press in Russia : in relation to what ? China, America, Iran ? But yes there is relatively free press, although it has limits.

Well, let me be ethnocentric, and I will compare Russia to Canada. It is evident to all that Russian television is now closely managed by the Kremlin. They dictate who cannot appear on television. The one remaining bastion of a relatively free press is the internet, and I expect that this outlet will be contained in the next few years.

Right of assembly and critique the government in power: Strange enough, Russia does have it. The Communist party holds regular public demonstrations that are not interefered with. There is just one party that seems to 'forget' to ask permissions or breaks demonstration rules, and then has enough camera's standby to show the world.

Yes, Russia has installed a Potomkin democracy. The Communists are managed, and the other parties are managed as well to allow for an illusion of democracy, with no threat of the party in power actually losing power. I will commend Putin on this. He did an excellent job.

In Western countries people are much more loose in using language. Many people will call their leaders out to be idiots, but would not dare to call them such face to face. In the FSU if you believe your leader is an idiot, it reflects on you as the people who chose an idiot to be a leader.

This is quite the stretch. How is dissatisfaction often expressed? Through anekdoty of course.

[Shadow]

Misha, when comparing to the Netherlands I could at first glance say it was similar. However when reading the internet and looking at the news in a more objective way I see that the news here is closely managed by a politically correct and socialist environment.
Many issues that are reality are not played out in the television or 'old media'.
As such I see little difference between Russia and my own country.

And I know of several comedians that do make jokes about Putin and the Russian government.
They are allowed and Putin has even been known to smile at them.

[Misha]

And I know of several comedians that do make jokes about Putin and the Russian government.
They are allowed and Putin has even been known to smile at them.

Ah, but what about the television show "Dolls" that aired and was quickly axed after Putin came to power.

[Ronnie]

Well, let me be ethnocentric, and I will compare Russia to Canada. It is evident to all that Russian television is now closely managed by the Kremlin. They dictate who cannot appear on television. The one remaining bastion of a relatively free press is the internet, and I expect that this outlet will be contained in the next few years.

I read that when the invasion started all the Georgia based websites were hacked.  FSB has a special unit for this.  One can only imagine that this would have been done to control information flowing from the people in their homes.  Instead we got people like the twelve-year old girl and her aunt parroting the Russian line.

Certainly Ukraine has issues with it's large Russian population who want close ties with Moscow and are against joining NATO for that Reason.  Folks, if you're going to live in one country and call yourself something else, that's just wrong.  There are Ukrainians in Ukraine.  It's their country for goodness sake.  Let them make their own choices.  I suggest the Russians in Ukraine either start to think of themselves as Ukrainian (as many do) or, if they can't do that, they might consider relocating to Russia.

The fundamental principles of Democracy assume that the voters want what is best for the country within which they live.  There are many in Ukraine who want only what is in Russia's interest.  That is Ukraine's great struggle.

It now looks like the Kremlin has bribed Yulia Tymoshenko with promises of backing her in her bid to replace Yuschenko as President.  She may be Ukraine's first traitor... We'll see how much truth there is to the reports.

There is no question that the most perfect form of government is a Benevolent Dictatorship.  I believe there have been a few.   The problem is that good people become corrupted once they are given such power.  It appears to be a weakness inherent in almost all people and is the reason democracies emerge as an imperfect, but next best solution.

[Misha]

It appears to be a weakness inherent in almost all people and is the reason democracies emerge as an imperfect, but next best solution.

It is Winston Churchill who is credited as saying: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

[Shadow]

I read that when the invasion started all the Georgia based websites were hacked.  FSB has a special unit for this.  One can only imagine that this would have been done to control information flowing from the people in their homes.  Instead we got people like the twelve-year old girl and her aunt parroting the Russian line.

Certainly Ukraine has issues with it's large Russian population who want close ties with Moscow and are against joining NATO for that Reason.  Folks, if you're going to live in one country and call yourself something else, that's just wrong.  There are Ukrainians in Ukraine.  It's their country for goodness sake.  Let them make their own choices.  I suggest the Russians in Ukraine either start to think of themselves as Ukrainian (as many do) or, if they can't do that, they might consider relocating to Russia.

The fundamental principles of Democracy assume that the voters want what is best for the country within which they live.  There are many in Ukraine who want only what is in Russia's interest.  That is Ukraine's great struggle.

It now looks like the Kremlin has bribed Yulia Tymoshenko with promises of backing her in her bid to replace Yuschenko as President.  She may be Ukraine's first traitor... We'll see how much truth there is to the reports.

There is no question that the most perfect form of government is a Benevolent Dictatorship.  I believe there have been a few.   The problem is that good people become corrupted once they are given such power.  It appears to be a weakness inherent in almost all people and is the reason democracies emerge as an imperfect, but next best solution.

The fundamental reality of Democracy is that a small group of people promises the rest that they want what is best for the country in which all live.
I think that Tymoshenko might still have some outstanding warrants... to even believe that she is bribed brings a big smile on Russians faces.
If the majority of people in Ukraine would be against joining NATO and rejoining Russia, would people who believe in democracy not just have to accept that ? Or would then the rule of democracy be replaced by the rule 'people do not know what is good for them' ?

[Ronnie]

Shadow,
When the population of Holland becomes 51% Muslim and they want to change the government to be run by mullahs under Sharia..what would be your attitude then?

[BC]

Shadow,
When the population of Holland becomes 51% Muslim and they want to change the government to be run by mullahs under Sharia..what would be your attitude then?

As long as 'vote by feet' is allowed then democratic principles are upheld.

[Shadow]

Shadow,
When the population of Holland becomes 51% Muslim and they want to change the government to be run by mullahs under Sharia..what would be your attitude then?

I would probably not care as I might have left. However with a 51% majority they could not change the constitution.
If they do get the needed votes, then they have the right to do the changes they wish.
That is the principle of democracy which should be followed. It does not matter if people outside the country care, it matters what the voting population decides.