Does Russia Suffer from Culture Cringe?

[Misha]

That quatation is not from Russia but from the Finnish state secratary of foreign affairs

Even if it is, it does not change much. To return to Ronnie's original discussion, Paul Goble has an interesting post discussing an article in the Russian newspaper Kommersant. The article argues that the war was in many ways of showing that Russia was almost like the United States in that it could invade another country at will and impose a "regime change." The author of the article then notes that the coming weeks will show the real success: if the Georgian President remains in power and if Russia is forced to accept a truly multinational peacekeeping force in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, then Russia will have failed in its larger objectives.

[diverboy70]

Ok, then we are talking. Russia is starting to show it powers. The US should keep its peace in this. Korea, Vietnam, Sudan, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, and soon maybe Iran and North Kora I rest my case

[diverboy70]

As I said: Russia will probably accept a peace keeping force from either OSCE or from the SWE/FIN but nor from Nato!

[Misha]

As I said: Russia will probably accept a peace keeping force from either OSCE or from the SWE/FIN but nor from Nato!

Does the OSCE have an army hidden away somewhere in the forests of Sweden?  Peacekeepers invariably come from national armies, and most of the national armies of Europe are part of the NATO alliance. Will the non-NATO countries of Europe be willing to provide all the soldier's required for a peacekeeping force? If they could, it would certainly be better than having the Russian army as the sole peace keepers in the region. 

[Misha]

Ok, then we are talking. Russia is starting to show it powers. The US should keep its peace in this. Korea, Vietnam, Sudan, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, and soon maybe Iran and North Kora I rest my case

Well, Canada is in Afghanistan as well as a number of other countries. As for Sudan, are you advocating non-interference? Sorry, I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make here.

[Ronnie]

To quote Anna Politkovskaya, "Putin does not discuss, does not negotiate."   I will add that he doesn't do it because he does not know how.  If he does something that appears to be negotiation or discussion it is just that..appearance.

As to Russia's nuclear arsenal, Putin knows that to use one nuke against the west will be the end of the Kremlin forever.  Therefore the west cannot let threats become a weapon in Putin's hands.

Putin cannot be reformed.  The key to Russia's future lies in the ability of the Russian people to throw off the yoke of KGB control.  Because political candidates now are hand-picked by the FSB (KGB), change is not going to happen until some level-headed army generals execute an heroic coup d'etat and return Russia to the path she was starting on during Yeltsin.

[Ronnie]

Well, Canada is in Afghanistan as well as a number of other countries. As for Sudan, are you advocating non-interference? Sorry, I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make here.

Misha,
Diver boy is trying draw to comparisons between the United States and Russia. What he fails to mention and I'm sure he knows, that in none of the events he lists was the United States acting alone as Russia has done.
As to Sudan, the same people who criticize the U.S. for intervening in conflicts, criticize the U.S. for not intervening in Darfur.  If the U.S went in with troops, they would criticize that.  For some insecure individuals, criticizing the U.S. is not a result of thinking but a result of spontaneous reaction.

[diverboy70]

Ronnie!

I will not respond to your implicate insults! And yes you know I have a problem with the US playing "World police"! And yes the US had some "forced partners" It's all a part of the hard politics, one british prime minister even had to "resign" partly because of that coopration. Because of massive popular opinions against playing the "lap dog"

I'm just saying what I feel is happening. Russia is again striving for world power, an I am not so sure they will not succeed!

[diverboy70]

And Ronnie, I tried to stay out of this aspect! But you made me draw up the fact that the US foreign policy has a MASSIVE opinion against it in Europe!

[diverboy70]

To quote Anna Politkovskaya, "Putin does not discuss, does not negotiate."   

"Either you are with us or against us" I am sure this has the same value for a lot of legitemate islam leaders throughout the middle east! So don't be a smartass!!!!

[Ranetka]

  The key to Russia's future lies in the ability of the Russian people to throw off the yoke of KGB control.  Because political candidates now are hand-picked by the FSB (KGB), change is not going to happen until some level-headed army generals execute an heroic coup d'etat and return Russia to the path she was starting on during Yeltsin.

A military coup...civil war, perhaps...and back to Eltsin days - no jobs, no order, no money, no laws, street criminals...nice...Early nineties? Been there already, thank you. Oh but yes, it was an easy task to pick up a young Russian beauty then, was not it? I wonder why...Thank you Ronnie, you really DO LOVE Russian people.

P.s. Don't forget to call me a Marxist and a KGB lover again.

[diverboy70]

Renatka

Yes i wonder why certain people even is at this board at all, Ahh maybe because they have a girl from Ukraine and think that the US is the best thing that ever happened to the world..... And don't think he will have a lot of success with the patriotic Russians, at least not if they are honest! 

[diverboy70]

Sorry, don't know how to insert a Youtube. It's a swedish video, about the affect of wars for kids. And this guy is not shy! One of the verses is "Fuck the USA and it politics!" And this is not very unusual here!

[Blues Fairy]

A military coup...civil war, perhaps...and back to Eltsin days - no jobs, no order, no money, no laws, street criminals...nice...Early nineties? Been there already, thank you.

So in Russia, chaos is the only alternative to autocracy, in your opinion?

Perhaps you are right in the sense that there is no peaceful way to "throw off the yoke" of autocracy once it's been installed.  "A good grass lawn takes 300 years to be cultivated".

[diverboy70]

BF

I think these guys has fallen for the stupid Bush propagranda that the US is the savior of the world! Or otherwise I just feel sorry for them if they think that The US power will save the world. If they are so narrowed minded maybe they should keep to their AW, Im sure they will not have a lot of success in Russia

[diverboy70]

But maybe in Georgia 

[Misha]

A military coup...civil war, perhaps...and back to Eltsin days - no jobs, no order, no money, no laws, street criminals...nice...Early nineties? Been there already, thank you. Oh but yes, it was an easy task to pick up a young Russian beauty then, was not it? I wonder why...Thank you Ronnie, you really DO LOVE Russian people.

P.s. Don't forget to call me a Marxist and a KGB lover again.

Ah, but you forget to give the reasons as to why the economy collapsed in the 90's. Yeltsin inherited the problems of the Soviet Union with an economy that dedicated 50 to 60% of its GNP on the military? An economy where if you wanted to buy a car you had to put your name on a waiting list? An economy that was collapsing under its own weight?

The fact is that if Russia wants to return to being a Soviet-style superpower, it will have to increase military spending and sacrifice the gains that people have made in terms of consumer goods: in other words, the people will get poorer so the army can become stronger. This of course will lead to greater outmigration from Russia, which will lead the Russian state to close the borders as was the case during Soviet times.

The fact of the matter is that the United States' economy is still at least 10 times larger than Russia's. If it wants to compete it either improves its economy by leaps and bounds for a few decades, or it spends a much, much bigger proportion of its economy on the military in trying to compete with the United States.

[Misha]

BF

I think these guys has fallen for the stupid Bush propagranda that the US is the savior of the world! Or otherwise I just feel sorry for them if they think that The US power will save the world. If they are so narrowed minded maybe they should keep to their AW, Im sure they will not have a lot of success in Russia

I don't believe the Bush propaganda, but that does not mean that I believe the Putin propaganda that Russia has become a mighty power whose armies have become the best in the world.

[Ranetka]

So in Russia, chaos is the only alternative to autocracy, in your opinion?

Perhaps you are right in the sense that there is no peaceful way to "throw off the yoke" of autocracy once it's been installed.  "A good grass lawn takes 300 years to be cultivated".

Of course not. It was my answer to Ronnie sugesting that military coup will be a really good thing for Russia. Read the quote. I think military coup/revolution is a horrible thing to happen, don't you?

[Ranetka]

Ah, but you forget to give the reasons as to why the economy collapsed in the 90's. Yeltsin inherited the problems of the Soviet Union with an economy that dedicated 50 to 60% of its GNP on the military? An economy where if you wanted to buy a car you had to put your name on a waiting list? An economy that was collapsing under its own weight?

It was more complex than that I beleive.

P.S. 1991-1995 was WAY WAY WAY worse than 1980-1990 in respect of economics. Some people made loads of money at that time. But for majority life was really difficult.

[Misha]

It was more complex than that I beleive.

P.S. 1991-1995 was WAY WAY WAY worse than 1980-1990 in respect of economics. Some people made loads of money at that time. But for majority life was really difficult.

Keep in mind, also, that the Soviet Union was buoyed in the late 1970s by high oil prices (sound familiar) and then was hit by the fall in prices in the 1980s. Gorbachev (remember him) implemented reforms to try and improve the Soviet Union that was failing. Yes, the full crash did not happen immediately, but that is often the case.

[diverboy70]

I don't believe the Bush propaganda, but that does not mean that I believe the Putin propaganda that Russia has become a mighty power whose armies have become the best in the world.

Yes Misha, off course! I just feel that you guys have to slow down a bit! The world is changing! Just not to recognize it will not do any good!

[Blues Fairy]

Of course not. It was my answer to Ronnie sugesting that military coup will be a really good thing for Russia. Read the quote. I think military coup/revolution is a horrible thing to happen, don't you?

Yes, considering how little is the chance that the military, so loyal to Putin, would want to stage a coup, or that any military junta replacing Putin would consider thorough democratic reforms.  I simply did not read the phrase "throw off the yoke" in the exact way that you did.  

On the other hand, my fantasy fails me when I try to imagine an alternative.  Perhaps autocracy can be supplanted by a democratic, reform-oriented government without any coups and ensuing anarchy.  I just fail to imagine such a thing happening in Russia.

[diverboy70]

Keep in mind, also, that the Soviet Union was buoyed in the late 1970s by high oil prices (sound familiar) and then was hit by the fall in prices in the 1980s. Gorbachev (remember him) implemented reforms to try and improve the Soviet Union that was failing. Yes, the full crash did not happen immediately, but that is often the case.

Misha, We are not arguing the facts here! Im just saying that something is happening in the balance of power, and it may not be in the interest of those that got used to the US beeing the only superpower. I'm in no way saing that we are there yet, but I think thats were we are moving!

[diverboy70]

BF

If anybody thinks it will be a "junta" trying to throw of Putin, I guess they have no Idea of Russia! It will never happen!