Does Russia Suffer from Culture Cringe?

[Misha]

Violated elections are also corruption. When he won the battle against old corruption he has created his own corruption.

How exactly did he violate the elections? Or, are elections only valid when the Kremlin approves of the results? 

[OlgaH]

How exactly did he violate the elections? Or, are elections only valid when the Kremlin approves of the results? 

German diplomat Dieter Boden, head of the OSCE observation mission, has confirmed the facts of roughest violations and falsifications at the election in Georgia, having declared that the Electoral Commission of Georgia is dominated by "chaos".

Huge protests in Tbilisi demand election after corruption claims
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/huge-protests-in-tbilisi-demand-election-after-corruption-claims-403863.html

[Ronnie]

Olga,

Your brilliant arguments have convinced me.  I want to leave California now and live under Putin's strong and courageous leadership.  I'll be contacting the embassy in the morning.

Now I just need to convince my wife!   

[OlgaH]

Olga,

Your brilliant arguments have convinced me.  I want to leave California now and live under Putin's strong and courageous leadership.  I'll be contacting the embassy in the morning.

Now I just need to convince my wife!   

Ronnie,

I wouldn't advice you to go to live in Russia, just because you will not be able survive  Russia is not for everyone  but only for strong and courageous people 

[Misha]

German diplomat Dieter Boden, head of the OSCE observation mission, has confirmed the facts of roughest violations and falsifications at the election in Georgia, having declared that the Electoral Commission of Georgia is dominated by "chaos".

Huge protests in Tbilisi demand election after corruption claims
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/huge-protests-in-tbilisi-demand-election-after-corruption-claims-403863.html

Olga,

You should keep in mind that some of us will actually read the information.

Here is a citation from the article your provide:

"But while Mr Saakashvili's government has certainly made huge strides in fighting corruption, and raised living standards for much of the population, many have questioned his democratic credentials, and Mr Okruashvili's [a former defense minister] allegations and subsequent arrest have given them a rallying point.

"I have no doubt that the accusations are 100 per cent true," said Tina Khidasheli of the opposition Republican Party. "Everyone has been talking about them for a long time, but now someone from the inner circle has come out with it, they have more credibility."

Some analysts in Georgia questioned Mr Okruashvili's motives in making the allegations. "He already knew he was going to be arrested," said Alex Rondeli, the president of the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies. "He knew that the best thing for him was to say these extraordinary things, which I think are false."

You have allegations from someone with an ax to grind. As for the protestors: "The protestors dispersed peacefully in the evening, with opposition figures promising more to come."

As for the OSCE, this is what the preliminary findings of the OSCE had to say about the elections in Georgia:

"In its Statement of Preliminary Findings and Conclusions of 6 January, the IEOM stated that while the election was in essence consistent with most OSCE and Council of Europe commitments and standards for democratic elections, it also revealed significant challenges which need to be addressed urgently."

Source: http://www.osce.org/item/29982.html

It was not perfect, but hardly the "chaos" that you put forward.

[Ronnie]

Olga,

You should keep in mind that some of us will actually read the information.

Here is a citation from the article your provide:

"But while Mr Saakashvili's government has certainly made huge strides in fighting corruption, and raised living standards for much of the population, many have questioned his democratic credentials, and Mr Okruashvili's [a former defense minister] allegations and subsequent arrest have given them a rallying point.

"I have no doubt that the accusations are 100 per cent true," said Tina Khidasheli of the opposition Republican Party. "Everyone has been talking about them for a long time, but now someone from the inner circle has come out with it, they have more credibility."

Some analysts in Georgia questioned Mr Okruashvili's motives in making the allegations. "He already knew he was going to be arrested," said Alex Rondeli, the president of the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies. "He knew that the best thing for him was to say these extraordinary things, which I think are false."

You have allegations from someone with an ax to grind. As for the protestors: "The protestors dispersed peacefully in the evening, with opposition figures promising more to come."

As for the OSCE, this is what the preliminary findings of the OSCE had to say about the elections in Georgia:

"In its Statement of Preliminary Findings and Conclusions of 6 January, the IEOM stated that while the election was in essence consistent with most OSCE and Council of Europe commitments and standards for democratic elections, it also revealed significant challenges which need to be addressed urgently."

Source: http://www.osce.org/item/29982.html

It was not perfect, but hardly the "chaos" that you put forward.

Misha,
It's not a gentlemanly thing to do...wake a woman up while she's dreaming.  I thought Canadians had better manners   

[OlgaH]

"Saakashvili told me we should get rid of him the same way as Rafik Hariri," said Mr Okruashvili, adding that the President had a "concrete plan" in place. Mr Hariri, a former Lebanese prime minister, was killed in a car bomb attack in Beirut in February 2005. Mr Okruashvili claims to have passed on this information to the American government, after which Mr Saakashvili never spoke about the planned assassination again.

When Mr Saakashvili came to power in the bloodless Rose Revolution of 2003, he promised to eradicate corruption, raise living standards, and turn Georgia from a corrupt dictatorship under president Eduard Shevardnadze into a modern democracy. He sent Georgian troops to Iraq to aid the coalition forces and even named a street in Tbilisi after George Bush. In response, Georgia received vast amounts of US financial aid, and political support in disputes with Russia.

But whatever their feelings about Mr Okruashvili himself, the protesters found resonance in his allegations. "People didn't come here because of Okruashvili," said Ms Khidasheli. "They came with their own anger."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/huge-protests-in-tbilisi-demand-election-after-corruption-claims-403863.html

And after...  the election that was demanded by protesters was  violated and falsified by Saakashvili... and US was covering it and lied about democratic election.

[Misha]

And after...  the election that was demanded by protesters was  violated and falsified by Saakashvili... and US was covering it and lied about democratic election.

And what about the Biden quote? Aren't you going to address the fact that the OSCE evaluation of the election was that it was not perfect, but conformed to most European norms?

As for Okruashvili, this is what one of your favorite sources has to say about him: "in a video taped confession released by the General Prosecutor's Office, Okruashvili pleaded guilty to large-scale bribery through extortion and negligence while serving as minister and retracted his accusations against the president, winning release on bail of 10 million Georgian lari. He also said that his earlier accusations levelled against Saakashvili were not true and were aimed at gaining political dividends for himself and Badri Patarkatsishvili and at discrediting the President of Georgia. Some opposition leaders said Okruashvili's statement had been made under duress. Okruashvili declared, however, that he had decided to cooperate with the investigation in order to 'mitigate [his] situation'" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irakli_Okruashvili).

Okruashvili is hardly a credible source. As for the protestors, of course they will say that the elections were violated. They are the opposition after all. Nonetheless, at least Georgia had the courage to allow international observers into their country to freely observe the elections, and though they had some criticisms regarding the elections, they did not judge the elections to have been "violated."

[Shadow]

What exactly defines a democratic election, and at what point do the elections stop to be democratic ?
In almost any election there are infringements that can be noted, but is it not true that when the result is accepted by the local parties and politicians the election should be seen as democratic ?
There will always be those who feel they did not get an honest chance, and there will always be those who feel that the chosen people do not deserve to be in that position. However if the local population does not largely disagree with the elections, one should accept the result regardless of who is chosen.
If one chooses to defend freedom, one must calculate that the results will not always agree with ones own opinion.
It is impossible to allow freedom and force people to follow a pre-chosen path.

[Ronnie]

What exactly defines a democratic election, and at what point do the elections stop to be democratic ?
In almost any election there are infringements that can be noted, but is it not true that when the result is accepted by the local parties and politicians the election should be seen as democratic ?
There will always be those who feel they did not get an honest chance, and there will always be those who feel that the chosen people do not deserve to be in that position. However if the local population does not largely disagree with the elections, one should accept the result regardless of who is chosen.
If one chooses to defend freedom, one must calculate that the results will not always agree with ones own opinion.
It is impossible to allow freedom and force people to follow a pre-chosen path.

Shadow...
It appears someone has hacked into your RWD account and posted the above very sensible comments under your name.  Maybe Dan can help you track down the culprit.   

[Shadow]

Shadow...
It appears someone has hacked into your RWD account and posted the above very sensible comments under your name.  Maybe Dan can help you track down the culprit.   

Ronnie, just because we might view the same from different angles does not mean we are very far apart 

[OlgaH]

Some opposition leaders said Okruashvili's statement had been made under duress. Okruashvili declared, however, that he had decided to cooperate with the investigation in order to 'mitigate [his] situation'" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irakli_Okruashvili).

Misha,

In 2000-2001 Okruashvili was a deputy of Minister of Justice of Georgia Saakashvili. When Saakashvili  became the president of Georgia Okruashvili was his authorized representative in Shida Kartli, after Saakashvili made Okruashvili the General Prosecutor of Georgia, and after Okruashvili was a Minister of the Interior of Georgia, and after it Okerushvili became a Defence Minister of Georgia, and in 2006 Okurashvili became a head of Ministry for Economic development of Georgia.

Saakashvili and Okruashvili were very close to each other  and of course  Okruashvili knows so much about Saakashvili.

Choosing between to be killed and to be alive after his arrest, Okruashvili chose to be alive.
In prison he said his attorney that if he (Okruashvili) will be killed to Saakashvili's order, everything will be organized as it was Russian Government.
http://www.newsland.ru/News/Detail/id/95187/cat/42/

On April 2008 Ministry of Interior of France gave Okruashvili  the political asylum.

[Misha]

Other than Okruashvili saying he would be killed, is there any evidence that he would be killed?

[OlgaH]

If he will keep silence about Saakashvili's crimes he will be alive, but who knows...

On 13th November after the arrest of Okruashvili the thousands of Georgians organized the protest in Tbilisi demanding the new election. The protesters were dispersed with tear gas and water that Saakashvili sent pouring out over the streets. BTW at that time the popularity Saakashvili dropped.  The new election in Georgia took place in January 7, and ... suddenly Saakashvili won...   There were so many filed complaints about the election that OSCE stepped in and confirmed the facts of violations and falsifications.

[youtube=425,350]paB-qiUqXtg[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]1jSow85Ktb0&feature=related[/youtube]

[Misha]

If he will keep silence about Saakashvili's crimes he will be alive, but who knows...

So, I take this to mean that there is no proof to substantiate the claims. Can you name other opponents that were killed?

[OlgaH]

Misha,

I just found an article that Saakashvili and Okruashvili made the peace http://www.regnum.ru/news/1040443.html

They  both understand their situation.

[Misha]

And, I forgot to add: given that Okruashvili has been given asylum in France, there is not much chance that Saakashvili or any other Georgian politician will be able to have him killed. 

[OlgaH]

When Okruashvili left Saakashvili's party he started to gain popularity and his popularity was very threatening for Saakashvili. http://www.vremya.ru/2007/176/5/187923.html

I just can guess that France has its own plans about Okruashvili keeping him... but Okruashvili and Saakashvili in any case are two apples of one tree.   

[OlgaH]

And, I forgot to add: given that Okruashvili has been given asylum in France, there is not much chance that Saakashvili or any other Georgian politician will be able to have him killed. 

I think Okruashvili also understand it as he was the deputy of Saakashvili  therefore he preferred to make the peace with Saakashvili. Just interesting how long...

[Shadow]

And, I forgot to add: given that Okruashvili has been given asylum in France, there is not much chance that Saakashvili or any other Georgian politician will be able to have him killed. 

Misha you forget that as long as there is chance that Saakashvili has ties with the FSB it is very likely that anyone could develop sudden health problems, no matter at which location they are.
You might argue that the FSB ties are loosened at the latest developments, but the reality is that you never know.

[Misha]

Misha you forget that as long as there is chance that Saakashvili has ties with the FSB it is very likely that anyone could develop sudden health problems, no matter at which location they are.
You might argue that the FSB ties are loosened at the latest developments, but the reality is that you never know.

What ties could Saakashvili possibly have with the FSB?!? What proof do you have to substantiate this innuendo? The only person who could order an assassination in Frence by the FSB would be Putin (possibly Medvedev, but I have my doubts) and not Saakashvili.

[Blues Fairy]

What ties could Saakashvili possibly have with the FSB?!? What proof do you have to substantiate this innuendo? The only person who could order an assassination in Frence by the FSB would be Putin (possibly Medvedev, but I have my doubts) and not Saakashvili.

The possibilities are endless if you consider some earlier precedents, e.g. the mysterious death of Saakashvili's presidential rival and financer of opposition Badri Patarkatsishvili just earlier this year.

[OlgaH]

I can not say anything about relationship between Saakashvili and FSB of RF, but that he has close relationship with MGB of Georgia is for sure     

[Shadow]

What ties could Saakashvili possibly have with the FSB?!? What proof do you have to substantiate this innuendo? The only person who could order an assassination in Frence by the FSB would be Putin (possibly Medvedev, but I have my doubts) and not Saakashvili.

Misha its very simple. A deal was made and there are two reasons he is alive. The first one is that he might be handy in the future to divide the opposition or as new puppet. The second one is that he continues to follow the deal that he agreed to.
If he decides at any time to come back on the deal, someone will find him.

[Misha]

I am not one for conspiracy theories as I am a follower of Occam's razor. Invariably, the simplest solution is the best, until proven otherwise.