Russian marriage agency confusion

[BillR]

Since I started looking at Russian dating sites, I have been wary of knowing who to trust.  I have read of different scams.  The last one is one I may have fallen for.  I was strongly attracted to a woman on a certain site and started writing to her.  To my delight she wrote back.  We used to spend several evenings writing emails back and forth like we were having a conversation.  It got to be expensive. 

I started reading about agency scams.  I found one site that had "Hot Russian Brides"  and "Anastasia Marriage Agency" on their scammers list.  This site had a list of recommended agencies that included "Elena's Models".

Now a few months later, I have searched again and I can't find it.  I am finding a site with some guy named "Jim" that criticizes Elena's and says good things about a site called "Alena Marriage Agency".  This is the thing:  The site I found a few months ago also had a guy named Jim with his "lists" of Blacklisted agencies and golden agencies.

What gives?  Who do I trust?  When I look at the site that I find now, the EXACT SAME criticism, word for word, is on every blacklisted agency.  That is more than fishy.

I don't want to keep writing this girl if she is just an employee of the agency who is getting a cut of the money I spend there.

[Gator]

Bill,

First, EM is a reputable site.

Second, You violated two of RWD's 10 commandments:

3.  Work to eliminate any agency from your communications.

4.  Always get the lady's home address and home phone number as early as possible

Also, it is possible that the women in the photo does not know that you exist.  Someone at the agency, perhaps a man, could be reading and answering your emails.

Paying $5-10 per email is okay if you are planning to go a WMVM trip soon.  Exchange 3-4 letters, talk to her, schedule a meeting, and get on the plane.

Nevertheless, if you were using EM or Bride.ru, you would be communicating directly with women.  Perhaps their photos are not as beautiful as those with Anastasia, yet you can be sure that she is real, especially when you call her and hear her interested and sweet voice.

[BillR]

Bill,

First, EM is a reputable site.

Second, You violated two of RWD's 10 commandments:

Also, it is possible that the women in the photo does not know that you exist.  Someone at the agency, perhaps a man, could be reading and answering your emails.

Paying $5-10 per email is okay if you are planning to go a WMVM trip soon.  Exchange 3-4 letters, talk to her, schedule a meeting, and get on the plane.

Nevertheless, if you were using EM or Bride.ru, you would be communicating directly with women.  Perhaps their photos are not as beautiful as those with Anastasia, yet you can be sure that she is real, especially when you call her and hear her interested and sweet voice.

I am working on being in compliance with those 2 commamdments.  I have seen her on another site (Alenam not Elena's) that allows for asking for personal contact info much sooner than Hot Russian Brides does.

I have seen her on a cam video 5 times through the site.  However, I suppose that could be faked.

[Admin]

Since I started looking at Russian dating sites, I have been wary of knowing who to trust.  I have read of different scams.  The last one is one I may have fallen for.  I was strongly attracted to a woman on a certain site and started writing to her.  To my delight she wrote back.  We used to spend several evenings writing emails back and forth like we were having a conversation.  It got to be expensive. 

I started reading about agency scams.  I found one site that had "Hot Russian Brides"  and "Anastasia Marriage Agency" on their scammers list.  This site had a list of recommended agencies that included "Elena's Models".

Now a few months later, I have searched again and I can't find it.  I am finding a site with some guy named "Jim" that criticizes Elena's and says good things about a site called "Alena Marriage Agency".  This is the thing:  The site I found a few months ago also had a guy named Jim with his "lists" of Blacklisted agencies and golden agencies.

What gives?  Who do I trust?  When I look at the site that I find now, the EXACT SAME criticism, word for word, is on every blacklisted agency.  That is more than fishy.

I don't want to keep writing this girl if she is just an employee of the agency who is getting a cut of the money I spend there.

Bill,

I cannot be sure from your description, but I would guess at a couple of things:

* The site you originally found was *probably* called JimsLists or AgencyScams. These were/are owned by the same guy - 'Jim' from Canada who lived in Russia for some years.

* As best I can tell, those sites are now shut down. It looks like it occurred within the past 60 days.

* Jim was (is) a guy who is opinionated, and prolific. In the process of blacklisting some sites, he drew a lot of criticism.

* Not long ago, Jim and I had a major disagreement. He made some negative comments about RWD and failed to consider many fundamental differences between a site like this one - and the one he ran. Fundamentally, he was opposed to guys having the opportunity to post openly about Jim and his sites here at RWD. You can find an entire sub-board dedicated to Jim's sites here in our Scams forum.

* While Jim and I were in the middle of our disagreement, I believe (know) he did some things that were entirely unacceptable - illegal even.

* Still, I take no pleasure in his sites being shut down.

* I believe Jim started his sites with good intentions - but I then think Jim became focused on the affiliate revenue (money he earned from affiliations with agency organizations like Elena's Models) - and also a bit too 'full of himself' in decisions he made to blacklist many sites, often contradicting himself openly. His arrogance prevented him from accepting legitimate criticism, and he turned away from offers to cooperate.

* I should point out these characteristics are not unique to Jim. There is one shrill agency owner (an insignificant agency by any standard) who was banned from RWD and who pathetically persists in his long-term campaign of character assassination, which much more often than not, is counterproductive to his goals. I hope he continues.

Now, with that as the background - one of the agencys that took exception to Jim's blacklist entry about them, created a 'mirror' site with a VERY similar domain name - and - they took most of Jim's blacklist sites and made them 'Gold List' sites in their mirror site - and they took Jim's Gold list sites (such as Elena's Models) and placed them in the mirror sites blacklist.

I suspect that is why you are seeing some guy named 'Jim' who is critical of Elena's Models. I strongly suspect this is the mirror site, and NOT the actual, real Jim.

I am loathe to pass out the URL's of any of the sites, but if you are interested, contact me via PM and I will send them to you.

Finally, and IMPORTANTLY - as to which agency you can trust - please refer to our sister site at www.CertifiedMarriageAgencies.org. Most importantly, review the Agency Code of Ethics (ACoE), commemorated there in three languages (English, Russian, Spanish). Use the ACoE in your selection of honest agencies. Contact them - provide them a copy of the ACoE - ask them if they subscribe to the tenets of the ACoE - and if not, why not.

Continue to ask here if you have any questions.

Welcome aboard.

- Dan

[I/O]

Bill: As a rule of thumb, stay away from any pay per letter, pay per click type of site. Elena's is straight, but I don't fully agree with Gator in so far as you "Know" they are real. You know nothing until you meet face to face and in most cases you probably know less after meeting LOL.............And if you ever get around to marrying one of these enigmatic beings, you will then understand you know less than nothing.

Point is, get direct contact asap and then get even more direct contacts by meeting face to face very shortly after. I played out a long letter program with my now wife, but 1) I had been to Russia severally prior, 2) We had actually seen each other, albeit for a few seconds, 3) It was so blatantly obvious by her far deviation from any other letter style that I was dealing with the real thing. The difference between what we hear about in the sucker letters and the real deal is more stark than night and day.

The bottom line is, if you look at it logically, it is not hard to avoid the scams. Is a drop dead stunner who is half your age going to sit at home all the time just to change mail with someone she may never meet from a far country? RW are not hermits, particularly young pretty RW. They are some of the most social creatures on earth. Sitting at home whispering sweet nophings (Sp intentional) in your ear across cyber space when they could be out getting it on with the local stud? Go figure.

I/O

[topofthekey]

I totally get why guys use agencies. We only have a limited time in the country- many reasons. But I've read here and on other sites about all the scammers/agency rip offs etc. That one big name group social agency was several thousand dollars if I remember.

I guess it leads me to ask why deal with the hassel? Why not just take out an ad in the paper and hire someone who speaks russian to check a free email account/ answer phone calls and get a nice list of serious ladies together for you? I mean it certainly can't cost anymore to do it this way can it? Plus aren't you likely to get more serious minded women responding if handled correctly?

[ConnerVT]

How do you plan to find and vet this person?

[Shadow]

The newspaper ad seems to be currently seen as a fruitful method.
However it has its downsides as well.
First of all you have no idea who is reading and reacting to your ad, and for what reasons. Once scammers and pro-daters are running out of easy targets on sites, they will start to react on newspaper ads.
Secondly newspapers are geographically limited. That means your area of search is much smaller.

If to be sure, I would prefer the small agencies that personally know their female customers, or the dating sites where chances are equal to all.

[Caddydaddy]

If to be sure, I would prefer the small agencies that personally know their female customers.

Yes, I too think this is the best way. Agencies who know their female customers personally and also have an idea of the guys who are seeking.

If I would be a RW and would have decided looking abroad, I truly would not like that my pics, email, phonenumber and address would be thrown around, i.e for anyone to buy per mouseclick. And going to and paying for an agency I would expect a certain service to find the best man for me. As RW, I would give these informations only to someone I have a basic idea of and feel there could be some potential, guided by a good agency until a personal meet happens.

Too much dating scrap around on the internet, for my taste.

my 2 cents
CaddyDaddy

[BillR]

Bill,

First, EM is a reputable site.

 

I am not trying to start a fight, but this begs the question:  How do YOU know EM is legit?  There is at least one site that claims EM was involved with a another site in which the guy running it was arrested.  So my original question remains:  How do I know who is running a reputable site and who isn't?   I need to try to contact my lady directly and bypass this stuff.

[BillR]

Bill,

I cannot be sure from your description, but I would guess at a couple of things:

* The site you originally found was *probably* called JimsLists or AgencyScams. These were/are owned by the same guy - 'Jim' from Canada who lived in Russia for some years.

* As best I can tell, those sites are now shut down. It looks like it occurred within the past 60 days.
 
* While Jim and I were in the middle of our disagreement, I believe (know) he did some things that were entirely unacceptable - illegal even.
 
Now, with that as the background - one of the agencys that took exception to Jim's blacklist entry about them, created a 'mirror' site with a VERY similar domain name - and - they took most of Jim's blacklist sites and made them 'Gold List' sites in their mirror site - and they took Jim's Gold list sites (such as Elena's Models) and placed them in the mirror sites blacklist.

I suspect that is why you are seeing some guy named 'Jim' who is critical of Elena's Models. I strongly suspect this is the mirror site, and NOT the actual, real Jim.
 
Finally, and IMPORTANTLY - as to which agency you can trust - please refer to our sister site at www.CertifiedMarriageAgencies.org. Most importantly, review the Agency Code of Ethics (ACoE), commemorated there in three languages (English, Russian, Spanish). Use the ACoE in your selection of honest agencies. Contact them - provide them a copy of the ACoE - ask them if they subscribe to the tenets of the ACoE - and if not, why not.

Continue to ask here if you have any questions.

Welcome aboard.

- Dan

Dan,
  Thanks for the comments.  I will check out the link you provided. Your description is entirely correct.  I saw the original site which seems to be gone.  I also saw the mirror site, which is still around.  The mirror site has descriptions of blacklisted sites with the exact same text for all the sites.  A sure sign something is amiss.

I have purchased a couple of the electronic books from the EM site.  I enjoyed reading them and they were informative.

I have searched the photos of scammers that have been posted on various sites and have not seen my lady.  She IS a stunner.  She also doesn't talk like the other women I have written.  She needs to feel trust in a guy and also made a big deal of the difference between lust and true love.  She apparently wants to be thought of as sexy, but she wants someone to love her as a person most of all.   That is what she says anyway.  She isn't sitting around content to a cyber-relationship, but she says that most Ukrainian guys are not marriage material.

I guess the best thing to do is see if she is willing to communicate apart from an agency.

[Turboguy]

Bill, all sites will have some bad women.   How do we know Elena's is legit.   Because many of us, including myself found their wife through Elena's.  Because nearly all of us who tried Elena's found few scams or problems.   Because Elena's allows direct contact right off the bat which we all prefer.   There are a few who have found their wife through some of the not so honest agencies but many more who found themselves writing a ghost. 

Even woman who are not real can say some really good things.   What they say in their letters does not mean a lot.  I am not saying anything meant to discourage you about the woman you have found just that your odds will be better using an agency that many of us have had good luck with.   Another good way to go is to use small agencies that know their women personally.   

[BillR]

Bill, all sites will have some bad women.   How do we know Elena's is legit.   Because many of us, including myself found their wife through Elena's.  Because nearly all of us who tried Elena's found few scams or problems.   Because Elena's allows direct contact right off the bat which we all prefer.   There are a few who have found their wife through some of the not so honest agencies but many more who found themselves writing a ghost. 

Even woman who are not real can say some really good things.   What they say in their letters does not mean a lot.  I am not saying anything meant to discourage you about the woman you have found just that your odds will be better using an agency that many of us have had good luck with.   Another good way to go is to use small agencies that know their women personally.   

As has been said elsewhere, even the bad sites have some legit, sincere RW on them.  The trick is being able to tell when.  If she is on a good site, that increases the likelihood that she is legit.  Even then, she may turn out not to be a good choice for a wife, but that is true no matter where one looks for a woman.  And the sooner I can get her personal contact info, the sooner I can tell if she is real.  Has anyone here ever paid for a background check on a RW?

[Admin]

As has been said elsewhere, even the bad sites have some legit, sincere RW on them.  The trick is being able to tell when.  If she is on a good site, that increases the likelihood that she is legit.  Even then, she may turn out not to be a good choice for a wife, but that is true no matter where one looks for a woman.  And the sooner I can get her personal contact info, the sooner I can tell if she is real.  Has anyone here ever paid for a background check on a RW?

Bill,

Simple facts are - this endeavor has risks. It is not for the faint-hearted, nor for those who are risk-averse.

Re: Background Check. Would you engage a background check on a domestic love interest? If not - why with a RW? BTW, there are some past topics in which the pitfalls of this notion are presented. Maybe do a search on 'private investigator' - or similar terms.

Like I wrote earlier, there is no better resource available for your vetting of agencies that the Agency Code of Ethics. Very few agencies have signed on to subscribe to the ACoE, though they have all reviewed it.

- Dan

[KenC]

As has been said elsewhere, even the bad sites have some legit, sincere RW on them.  The trick is being able to tell when.  If she is on a good site, that increases the likelihood that she is legit.  Even then, she may turn out not to be a good choice for a wife, but that is true no matter where one looks for a woman.  And the sooner I can get her personal contact info, the sooner I can tell if she is real.  Has anyone here ever paid for a background check on a RW?

Ah Bill, now I think you've got it!
There are good girls in bad agencies and bad girls in good agencies.  You can do a background check via a private investigator, check with Maxx2 here as he has some contacts in that area.  But IMO that seems a little extreme.  Typically, guys first verify that they are speaking with the woman that think they are speaking to by other methods.  Sending flowers with the delivery service taking a photo is one way.  Getting the woman's home address, phone and email is another step.  Usually the scammers become rather apparent with continued communication.  Just keep your eyes wide open and trust your instincts.  Don't be too paranoid.  Best of luck to you.
KenC

[diverboy70]

BillR

There is no easy anwer to this! Ihave experienced basically three kinds of women. first, the obvios scammers, long letters, no specific answers to your questions. Second and the hardests kind to get a grip of, the women answering your questions and keeping a contact with you, but you get a strange feeling about these women, no phone and no real interest to go futher! And the third kind that you just know is for real they will give you theur mob. phone in three letters mostely without you even asking! My suggestion is to go for No. Three!

[steviej]

About background checks, I've heard some mixed, and bad things, about them. If you're going to meet a woman the first time for one week, and then ask her to marry you, you better have a complete background check. But you're not going to do that, are you? No matter what, right? If its' later in a relationship, and she's a good woman, and she finds out you're running background checks on her, then you have just ended the relationship. And there are reported cases where the background checkers themselves are skaking down the girls, squeezing them for money or threatening to report bad things to the man they are interested in, and maybe evening putting them up on scammer lists, which could doom their chances. I would be very careful about doing a background check. I guess Maxx2 did that after the fact, but as I recall, there were many other "red flags" all over that relationship from early on that he wasn't paying attention to at the time.

It's a catch 22. If you think you need a background check, its certainly way too soon to be serious about her. If you well down the road to a real relationship (and I mean at least 2-3 visits with her in her town, meeting her relatives, etc.) and you are not blind as a bat, you should know by then yourself who you are dealing with. And if you still think you need a background check, it's probably way too soon to ever think about marrying that woman. See what I mean? The cure can be worse than the disease you are trying to prevent, IMHO.

[Shadow]

Background checks in the FSU are not working the way they work in the US.
First of all there are no computer systems where one can find personal data or history.
Secondly, due to the nature of FSU there can be false data entered in the local government systems.
Checking at work ? As in the FSU many people receive at least part of their salary unofficial anyone who comes to ask questions will be told whatever story they feel is correct.

Want examples ? Well at one time there were 10 people listed by ZAGS as living in Mrs Shadows apartment. Her phone number had 22 entries. These were her own findings, not mine.

There are two effective ways. First of all by a licensed detective who knows what to find where. They should have a registration number. No number means no official license. Secondly by someone local who can tap in to the babushka network. Neighbours can tell if a woman sees many men, if some of them are foreigners and if there is a local boyfriend.

However a common trick for the 'detective' would be to call the women, and negotiate the story and the price.

[topofthekey]

Maybe this exists and I'm just not aware of it but it might be smart to get a list going of professional PIs that will do a good job for you and that come with endorsements from men that have used them.

Even if everything goes great in some cases it seems like there is so little time actually spent between the couple and compared to domestic situations maybe its even more rushed due to having a job in the USA, etc. If you know the PI was a standup guy and wouldn't screw you I just can't see the downside.

[msmoby_ru]

Maybe this exists and I'm just not aware of it but it might be smart to get a list going of professional PIs that will do a good job for you and that come with endorsements from men that have used them.

Even if everything goes great in some cases it seems like there is so little time actually spent between the couple and compared to domestic situations maybe its even more rushed due to having a job in the USA, etc. If you know the PI was a standup guy and wouldn't screw you I just can't see the downside.

Dear ToK

the "downside" is surely obvious....  If you read the previous three posters advice - there should be no need to "check up" on your intended.. the good 'uns shine through.

You'll meet her family, more than once - she'll introduce you to friends - andd work colleagues. she'll give you home telephone numbers, etc.

This is not something to rush into.

Forget the PI - visit and be your own PI

[AnastassiaAsh]

I need to try to contact my lady directly and bypass this stuff.

Exactly!
The very first test a lady will have to pass is this one. You will be surprised that only few pass it. There are so many nice women but who don't want to part with their agency giving all kinds of reasons: I don't know how to use a computer, i don't know English, i don't have time for this, it's more convenient for me to do through the agency's office, i trust a girl from that office........

And that's should be an answer in itself. You goal should be to communicate with her through an internet cafe and home/personal cell phone number. That's it. If this is not happening i would suggest moving on. (you can always find other ways to translate her letters  , you can always help her set an internet account....it's not that hard, RW are smart, we know that.  )

[topofthekey]

Dear ToK

the "downside" is surely obvious....  If you read the previous three posters advice - there should be no need to "check up" on your intended.. the good 'uns shine through.

You'll meet her family, more than once - she'll introduce you to friends - andd work colleagues. she'll give you home telephone numbers, etc.

This is not something to rush into.

Forget the PI - visit and be your own PI

Sure, not going to disagree with that which is why I've been looking at options to spend a lot of time doing what you mentioned above (posted a thread about my plan actually). I was just commenting on those guys that make a couple of short trips to Russia and get married. Maybe it doesn't happen as much as I think it does. But a lot of these agencies are saying it happens. I was just commenting that if a guy is in a situation where he has a full time job and only limited time to visit and thinks he is serious about someone- then I could understanding thinking about hiring a PI.

But point taken- if you are thinking about hiring a PI then you definiately aren't ready to get hitched yet. This won't be an issue for me personally, so I wasn't commenting on the subject with any intent to actually hire a PI.

[msmoby_ru]

I was just commenting that if a guy is in a situation where he has a full time job and only limited time to visit and thinks he is serious about someone- then I could understanding thinking about hiring a PI.

But point taken- if you are thinking about hiring a PI then you definiately aren't ready to get hitched yet. This won't be an issue for me personally, so I wasn't commenting on the subject with any intent to actually hire a PI.

Hi, again,  Tok !

I didn't mean to seem abrupt.. sorry..  I think you hit the nail on the head... a guy who has very fixed holiday time is REALLY going to find this process hard.. it takes time.

[Caddydaddy]

The very first test a lady will have to pass is this one. You will be surprised that only few pass it. There are so many nice women but who don't want to part with their agency giving all kinds of reasons
And that's should be an answer in itself. You goal should be to communicate with her through an internet cafe and home/personal cell phone number. That's it. If this is not happening i would suggest moving on.

Hi Anastassia,
Frankly, I don't understand it why a woman "must pass this test - and one should move on if not", when she works with an agency, especially in an early stage. I fully understand a serious, honest and in her search careful RW who wants this proceed. We are talking about long distance search and this is not same as local. I fully agree with you in a later stage, when it is clear there is a serious mutual interest.

I am on my search since February and believe me I learned a lot since. I tried several dating sites as parship in Europe. After two months I was convinced this was one of the biggest poop I did. Same with eharmony, friendfinder, I don't remember all. Women, who called me Sweetheart after two mails, who wanted to phone with me in the first mail, all kind of weird things, truly a "risky business".
And so I concluded the only way for a long distance search is to have the service of a serious, trusty agency, no matter if this is for Russia or America. There are such agencies and if my future soulmate thinks same, so much the better 

just my 2 cents,
CaddyDaddy

[I/O]

Caddy: A gentle chastening. I would be inclined to very much listen up to Mrs Ash. She might happen to know RW. She is one. Hence her clue about test passing. If she thinks it necessary (and I agree), isn't it logical that other decent RW might also think the same way? Mrs Ash and I have butted heads a few times over incidentals, but I have great respect for people of her class. They stand out from the crowd and most guys out skirt chasing would exceed their best expectations if the snagged one in her class.

I/O