She wants me to send her money for her plane ticket....

[Doll]

He already sent the money.

[Doll]

OMG- take a picture of your scratches! Sick in the stomach
Clark, once again- don't search for troubles.

[clarkcr]

After reading your comments and remembering all previous posts and comments thus far on this subject...including Elenas worthless e-book, I have no doubts this girls is genuine and that I am going to have a great week with her in Kiev and in Mariupol. 

The odds are stacked against me, but my intuition is golden and she is everything she has told me she is. 

I have never been in such a situation where so many different people were telling me so many different and conflicting things.  The only thing I know about dating FWU girs is that anything can happen and if you had a bad experience, it's only a reflexion on you and your motives.  I am being led to go to Ukraine to meet her.  I believe that God has a hand in this and I trust in Him that there is no way I'm going there because of something I want...it's what He wants for me.  Whatever that something is, I'm willing to experience it.  It will be a grewat thing. 

No way she's anything but 100%.  no way.

[Ronnie]

I'm not surprised at the responses you've gotten so far from people.  Only Jack's adverse opinion surprises me.

I understand KenC's concern about her wanting to fly vs overnight train.  I have two thoughts on that point.  Taking the overnight train may be fine for most purposes and the ladies who met me in Kyiv did that.  But I will tell you that they were a sight when they arrived without a shower.  Further, I suspect that prices are now much higher for train travel than a few years ago while airfares have gotten more competitive. 

The lady will show if he sends her the money.  However, the more Clark posts, i.e. want to see a picture of leg scratches, the more I am pursuaded it's probably in the lady's best interest to refuse his payment and to reactivate her profile at the agency.  Doll is completely correct.

[Doll]

Doll is completely correct.

If I were her and knew all these doubts I wouldn't show up at all. Let alone marriage.
First $200 then pictures of scratches , then it could be anything in a marriage.
 And again- if you search for troubles you will get them.

[steviej]

… What bothers me is that if she IS a scam...I have invested so much EMOTIONAL equity in her, I will quickly become very bitter to this whole concept and never come back.   …

You are making your first journey to meeting someone who is possibly a wonderful girl. (I don’t think you said anything about having ever gone before or started relations with anyone over there before). You are understandably nervous. You are understandably worried that your hopes and feelings could come to nothing, and worse, you are afraid of the trauma to discover you have been deceived. You want to protect your emotions, not your money. The money is just a symbol in this discussion. You have already bought your plane ticket, got your visa, made your hotel reservations – everything is set to go. No matter what game we play with the “odds” here, you are going. Knowing the “odds” from the experienced people here will not change the vulnerability you feel with your emotions should things go badly.

Often men try hard to be analytical when dealing with sensitive issues of their feelings. Hence, your “poll.” Your hope of finding a wonderful woman in the FSU is valid. And they are many wonderful ladies there. The woman that needs you is there, somewhere. This trip may be the silver bullet, or it may fall apart, either from a scammer or just bad chemistry. Don’t be afraid of that. You will not give up and go live a lonely life in your closet. You will be older and wiser and will try again. Most of the happily married guys here have been through several cycles of one sort or another.

Do not let your fear and analytical mind interfere with being the best man you can be. Be a real man, and be a gentleman. (i.e., photos of scratches, that’s is REALLY lame, man! Are you going to ask her to lift her skirt when you arrive and show you ??) The more you have been posting here, the more your nervousness is making you seem like a jerk. Get over it and be a good guy. Doesn’t the woman you are looking for deserve that? Otherwise, Ronnie and Doll are right and this woman should forget about you.

And if things go great (which they might), do NOT come back and start the K-1 visa after your first visit !! ...

I hope it works out for you, but either way, its an important experience on the road to finding happiness with the right girl from the FSU for you.

[Doll]

The money is just a symbol in this discussion

As far as I understand money is money for Clark as he arranged this trip considering 3 more girls. And only $200 for this first one bothers him.
I could be wrong.

[groovlstk]

The only thing I know about dating FWU girs is that anything can happen and if you had a bad experience, it's only a reflexion on you and your motives.

That's a foolish and arrogant thing to say, and since you cited it as the "only thing" you know about dating FSU girls it means you know doodly squat.

[dispozo]

Train ticket 2nd class from Kiev to Evpatoria about $25.00 US dollars

Flight form Simferopol to Kiev about $25.00 US dollars WizzAir.

July 2008

[Doll]

A round ticket Mariupol-Kiev is about $200.

[Gator]

My assessment after reading all of this:

The odds of the Mariupol Beauty showing are higher than the odds that the two are marriage material.

So Clark, go!  If she shows, be happy and enjoy the time together.  Then deliberate about everything.

If she does not show, no remorse please.  Celebrate by dating some Kiev women.  There are hundreds who will be happy to meet you (and some who easily will spend more than $200 in one day  ). 

Enjoy life.  What a blessing!!!   If you go, you can't lose so stop sweating it.  It is far better than staying home.

But do write about everything when you return.  We want to know, and we will be kind.

[clarkcr]

You're right Doll!  I'm a sham.  One of you should write this girl Olga and tell her I'm a distrusting American man that has doubts.  I'm flying halfway around the world and have absolutely nothing to lose by doing so.  I don't deserve her.  I'm a loser.

By the way, Doll, what's your paypal address?  You like getting money from unknown men, maybe you'd like it if I could send you some scratch? 

She bought the ticket by the way and she emailed me a scan of it.  It's a one way ticket.....  IMHO she's the luckiest girl in Ukraine!

And Ronnie.....nevermind. 

Thanks to SteveJ, Gator, Jack and everyone that has the pros and cons of this situation, but has handled it in a professional manner.  These discussion groups can be brutal.

 

[Shadow]

She bought the ticket by the way and she emailed me a scan of it.  It's a one way ticket.....  IMHO she's the luckiest girl in Ukraine!

These discussion groups can be brutal.

You could reference the flight number to see if it matches current flight data, and by the ticket code see if it is refundable or not.
And why would she buy a one-way ticket, she will not return to her city after you left ?
Does she arrive before or after you ?

And yes, you can get some advise that seems brutal. Understand however that most of us are not here to burn down people but to actually try and help them out. If you can not handle the opinion of a RW like Doll, you might be in for a hard time.

[Doll]

My God! If not the picture of scratches then the ticket scan.
Clark, you're hopeless.
Go ahead and send me money 
OK, Clark, one more time for you: IF YOU SEARCH FOR TROUBLES YOU WILL GET THEM ALL.

[Doll]

IMHO she's the luckiest girl in Ukraine!

And you  no doubt  are the  most modest (grammar?) guy in the USA
 

[Doll]

One of you should write this girl Olga and tell her I'm a distrusting American man that has doubts.  I'm flying halfway around the world and have absolutely nothing to lose by doing so.  I don't deserve her.  I'm a loser.

She knows

[MaxxumUSA]

Okay, I meant total out of pocket expense with ALL the girls I have sent AI mail to.  I haven't used AI with her in a good month.  In fact she told me she went down to her agency to tell them to remove her from their listing and they wouldn't do it.  She said they were upset at her for wanting to leave.  She explained she found someone and they retorted, "You have only listed with us for a month!  How could you find someone so quick".  This doesn't prove anything....just saying....I haven't contacted her through AI in over a month.  It has all been SMS, voice and post. 

Me and my wife removed our profiles from viewing on Elena's models after talking/emailing/sms'ing for only a week or two.

We SMS'd many times a day, called each other many times a day, and used skype for webcam conversations because thank goodness she has a laptop.

I had people on the forums tell me I was making mistakes after I posted my story here.

Here are the things I did "wrong:"  (wrong in SOME peoples eyes)

-  Sent her money to cover expenses related to meeting me  (Some people completely against sending money)
-  We decided we wanted to marry on my first visit after knowing each other for only 4 days
-  Officially engaged on my second visit with only 6 total days face time
-  Traveled without a backup plan to a city I knew nothing about where English is rarely spoken (Samara)
-  Did not have a translator and we struggled a little bit with communication early on
-  Trusted only in her to take care of my lodging, living, and entertainment plans

I'm sure there's many other "mistakes" I may have made in other's people's eyes.

One thing I DID do was confront my fears and try my best to maintain my composure even though I was truly unsure of how to go about all this.  As a matter of fact I was so nervous about traveling the first time I was unable to hold food down for about 3 days before my first, second, and even nervous on my third visit.  By the by I ended up visiting my wife four times in the first 8 months of knowing her spending a total of two of those months there in Russia with her.

The end result of facing my fears and going out on a limb and trusting my heart with this woman?  Quite simply I have the most wonderful best friend and wife I could ever imagine having.  This Saturday marks 1 year of her being in the USA with me and it has been easily and by far the best relationship I have ever had with any human ever.  She is simply the best for me, and it seems that she is extremely happy with me as well.

In any case...  during the initial stages of our relationship she did ask me for money here and there.  I was quite simply honored to be able to help and support my woman.  I still am happy to help support her dreams and desires here in the USA.

Having said all that I know that I am one of the lucky ones.  Just because it worked out for me and patterns seem similar to yours does not mean that your woman is not a scammer.  I told you some parts of my story because I feel too many men are quite simply paranoid and afraid to give it their all.

Good luck Clark - and keep us informed.  When do you visit?

[Doll]

MaxxumUSA , you are not alone- many men made same " mistakes" and even more. So did my now husband. It was not stupidity or ignorance- he knew he was risking but he was rewarded.

[Doll]

One thing I DID do was confront my fears and try my best to maintain my composure even though I was truly unsure of how to go about all this.

[groovlstk]

Just FYI, but here's another thread from awhile back started by a guy who's online flame asked him to send her $200 so that she could meet him:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1684.0

You can see the same type of responses as in this thread.

She scammed him, btw.

In the OP's defense, many times the $$ is not the issue and the guys posting here for advice are not greedy, it's simply humiliating to be used and discarded regardless if the sum is $200 or $2000. There's a very, very fine line between being cautious and being foolish. Many of us, myself included, never had to wrestle with these issues.

[Gator]

There's a very, very fine line between being cautious and being foolish. Many of us, myself included, never had to wrestle with these issues.

Some of us never thought (or knew) that we were foolish.  It just worked out positively.  If a man is risk averse, he should not consider RW.  There are too many misgivings and trials and tribulations along the way, yet in retrospect they seem small and worth all the sweat.

clarkcr wrote,

She bought the ticket by the way and she emailed me a scan of it.  It's a one way ticket..... 

Sending you a scan is her way of confirming that she is coming and also telling you to be there too.  She is aware that some guys get cold feet or whatever and cancel the trip at the last moment.

clarkcr,

IMHO she's the luckiest girl in Ukraine!

Am I reading this as intended?  It is good that you are confident about yourself.  However, let us not become arrogant.  More than likely, the truth is that you are a lucky man who is about to have a glorious week with a very fine woman.  Enjoy it.

[MaxxumUSA]

Just FYI, but here's another thread from awhile back started by a guy who's online flame asked him to send her $200 so that she could meet him:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1684.0

You can see the same type of responses as in this thread.

She scammed him, btw.

In the OP's defense, many times the $$ is not the issue and the guys posting here for advice are not greedy, it's simply humiliating to be used and discarded regardless if the sum is $200 or $2000. There's a very, very fine line between being cautious and being foolish. Many of us, myself included, never had to wrestle with these issues.

groove...  the link you provided was to a thread about a woman going from Ukraine to Paris.  That's a bit different than an in country jaunt via train/plane.

You are totally right ...  none of us want to be scammed for any amount of money.  There is a fine line between being cautious and foolish.

Having said that and assuming that the OP comments are true and based on those I would almost guarantee she is at least a real woman that will meet him.  I'm with the people hoping that she will show and all will be well.

I digress for a moment...  BTW the only time I ever asked my wife (GF at the time) to fax me some type of confirmation it was for reasons not relating to me trying to find out if she is a scammer.  And it took like 3-4 fax machines for us to get the fax through OK.

[roykirk]

I always knew it was a good sign when I realized the only arguments I've ever had with my fiance' were over me spending money on her (i.e. her arguing I shouldn't be spending money on her).  I once bought her a pair of hiking shoes for a hike we were going on because she didn't have her purse with her and I assumed I was buying them anyway since I was the one asking her to go hiking.  We had some "loud" talking when we got back when she tried to give me money for them.  I told her absolutely not; she insisted.  In the end I took it just to stop the argument, and then hid it in her carry on suitcase before she left.  I haven't caught hell yet, but I'm sure I will soon.   

All that being said, I don't think it's necessarily always a bad sign if a woman asks for money.  It just depends on the situation.

[BillyB]

Sometimes you have to roll the dice.

It's best a guy don't put himself in a position to gamble. Very beautiful city but Vegas wasn't built by winners.

Are guys going to the FSU to look at tourist attractions in the big city or visit a woman, look at her life and see how she acts in her element? For that $200 I would go the extra distance to visit a woman on her turf even if it was looking like a 3rd World country. Save the romantic vacations for a lady when you're engaged to her or she's your wife. No need to gamble. If the OP asked his woman to visit him in Kiev, he should pay for the date unless it was her idea.

[steviej]

... Very beautiful city but Vegas wasn't built by winners.

Billy ... good one !!  LOL

clarkr, just curious, why is she "the luckiest woman in Ukraine?"