Obama Vs Mcain and Russia

[BC]

Straight out of the neo-con playbook isn't it (though certainly not a tactic they invented.) Interesting how talk of attacking Iran seems to have quieted over recent weeks too, with the Conservatives perhaps realizing that too many people have figured out how economically catastrophic such a strike would be. So what do they do: look at their Pax-Americana atlas and start shifting around some drawing-pins.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/29/putin.transcript/

Putin diplomatically called it a hypothesis, at least for the moment.

[Ronnie]

If Putin could have his wish, he'd wish for GWB to remain president.  This is the president to said with Putin and watched the sunset.  This is the president who selected a Secretary of State who speaks Russian and majored in Russian Studies.  This the the president who said he looked in Putin's soul and saw someone who is trustworthy.

Neither McCain/Palin or Obama/Biden will afford Putin the opportunities for betrayal he has had with GWB and Condi in the WH.  McCain will take zero crap from Putin.  Zero. Biden (who will pull Obama's foreign policy strings) might take a milligram of crap and that's all.

Putin has been the best that than has happened to American politics in a long to time.  In a way, he has been America's (and EU's) savior.  He has pointed out the folly of dependence on untrustworthy sources of energy.  Energy independence will become priority one both in Europe and America.

I'm looking into converting my cars to CNG (compressed natural gas).  It's abundant and cheap in North America.  T. Boone Pickens has it right and he's the type of guy who will not be ignored.

Here's another voice of solid reason...

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73452

[Shadow]

I'm looking into converting my cars to CNG (compressed natural gas).  It's abundant and cheap in North America.  T. Boone Pickens has it right and he's the type of guy who will not be ignored.

CNG is indeed the currently most vialbe allternative. However it does have some (minor) negative points. One is availability, although the home filler is an option if you do not need to travel long distances.
The second one is that CNG does not have the efficiency of traditional petrol. This due to the 30% useless gases it contains. There have not yet been filter solutions made to bring up the CNG level to a more efficient one, as the gas has to meet 'home cooking standard'.

The governments are in doubt regarding the promotion, as the major part of the price difference is due to CNG being taxed much less.
As usual, governments are in favor of any 'environmental friendly' solution that brings them money, and rather ambiguous about solutions that bring down their earning capacity.

[Ronnie]

My interest is in keeping the money I pay in circulation in our own economy.

[Turboguy]

CNG is indeed the currently most vialbe allternative. However it does have some (minor) negative points. One is availability, although the home filler is an option if you do not need to travel long distances.
The second one is that CNG does not have the efficiency of traditional petrol. This due to the 30% useless gases it contains. There have not yet been filter solutions made to bring up the CNG level to a more efficient one, as the gas has to meet 'home cooking standard'.

Personally I don't see CNG being anything with a future.   It is still a fossil fuel and we need to get away from fossil fuels totally.   To me the future of the automobile is a more likely an affordable version of something like this.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/GearUpForTheGasFreeCar.aspx

[Shadow]

Personally I don't see CNG being anything with a future.   It is still a fossil fuel and we need to get away from fossil fuels totally.   To me the future of the automobile is a more likely an affordable version of something like this.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/GearUpForTheGasFreeCar.aspx

And how exactly is the electric power created 

I wonder if someone ever made a study about what would happen if 25% of the consumers of petrol would decide to buy electric powered cars that use the electricity network for charging. My personal gamble is that it will create a lot of problems for the networks.

[Turboguy]

I just skimmed the article but my understanding is you plug it in but there are also solar panels on the roof that help generate some of the electricity.   Electricity can be generated from wind, from water power and of course nuclear.   I will agree that right now a lot of our electricity is created by burning fossil fuels but there is enormous potential for alternate ways of creating electricity.   

Electric vehicles have a reputation of being sluggish but check out the Tesla.   One of the things they say they like to do on test drives is to ask someone to turn on the radio.  They push on the accelerator at the same time and the g-force is so great the person can't reach for the radio.   Take a peek.  http://www.teslamotors.com/

As better batteries are developed and alternate ways of generating electricity become more developed I see that as the future of the automobile. 

[Andrew James]

Straight out of the neo-con playbook isn't it (though certainly not a tactic they invented.) Interesting how talk of attacking Iran seems to have quieted over recent weeks too, with the Conservatives perhaps realizing that too many people have figured out how economically catastrophic such a strike would be. So what do they do: look at their Pax-Americana atlas and start shifting around some drawing-pins.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/29/putin.transcript/
Putin diplomatically called it a hypothesis, at least for the moment.

Putin, it seems, would be familiar with such tactics too (that is, if you subscribe to the theory that he initiated the second war with Chechnya to win the presidential election.)

[Shadow]

I just skimmed the article but my understanding is you plug it in but there are also solar panels on the roof that help generate some of the electricity.   Electricity can be generated from wind, from water power and of course nuclear.   I will agree that right now a lot of our electricity is created by burning fossil fuels but there is enormous potential for alternate ways of creating electricity.   

Electric vehicles have a reputation of being sluggish but check out the Tesla.   One of the things they say they like to do on test drives is to ask someone to turn on the radio.  They push on the accelerator at the same time and the g-force is so great the person can't reach for the radio.   Take a peek.  http://www.teslamotors.com/

As better batteries are developed and alternate ways of generating electricity become more developed I see that as the future of the automobile. 

Not exactly convinced. 220 miles is not a lot of distance, and it will take 3.5 hours to reload with the high capacity.
It does not tell what amount of KwH is needed for reload, the mileage price is based on US prices including incentives.
A step in to the right direction ? Yes. A soludion for daily use ? Hardly.
The good thing is that the car is aimed at those who would buy a sports car to show it off every now and then.

As far as the radio, I used to drive a Maserati Biturbo. It was fun to turn on to a road at 50KmH , then push down the accelerator and let the turbos come in. Most passengers turned a bit pale. 

[BC]

The problem with just plugging your car in to your garage outlet is that by the time electricity gets to your car, already half or more of the energy has been lost.

Take a gas fueled electric plant.. a LOT of heat is wasted.  1 KW of energy in CNG burned turns out only 200 or 300 watts.. then take off another 5 to 7 % for losses getting from the plant to your garage.

Probably much better off putting CNG directly in your car.

With solar panel efficiency in the low teens, one square meter of panels (about the size of a normal car roof) is only going to get you little more than 100 watts or so.  Parked 8 hours in full sunlight you might make enough energy to run the air conditioner long enough to cool the inside of the car or roll down the windows, and get a 'free' couple of miles.  Don't forget it will probably take at least 5 years for those solar panels to produce the same amount of energy it took to produce them.  Going to keep that car forever? Most will never benefit as they change cars more often and will simply be throwing away their money.

A gallon of gas contains about 36 KWH of energy, burn that at about max 25% efficiency and you get 9 KWH to turn your tires, run your air conditioner, generate electricity for lights and stereo and navigator and and and..

Once you get it all figured out, you will see that the power generation capacity that is already stressed for domestic and business use simply cannot support widespread use of electric vehicles.. and that the only real alternative is to have gas stations with mini nuclear reactors to do any good.

The big 'boom' in renewable energy is a farce and only a tactic to scare the public enough to open and empty their wallets.

The only realistic solution in the short to mid term is to continue using fossil fuels and conserve until nuclear energy can catch back up again and trillions are spent to upgrade power transmission capacities.  Einstein was right.. you can't make energy from nothing.

Ever see a windmill standing still on a windy day and ask yourselves why?.. no, it's not taking a rest.. it's because the electrical system is already overloaded and cannot accept the additional energy being produced. Now add your tax dollars that were spent to support building that wind farm..  Yes, someone is profiting... not you, not I, nor the environment.. 

Fools gold I say!

[LEGAL]

IMHO What the U.S. needs is mass transit trains from  Miami to Main and East coast to West coast. While this would not solve all of our fuel consumption it sure would put a big dent in it. I personally like the trains of Europe and have used them quite often.

[BC]

IMHO What the U.S. needs is mass transit trains from  Miami to Main and East coast to West coast. While this would not solve all of our fuel consumption it sure would put a big dent in it. I personally like the trains of Europe and have used them quite often.

I think the US needs more crosswalks.  I was often quite 'stuck' with no legal or risk free way to get across that 4 lane road to the shopping center.. Had to drive half a mile there and half a mile back.  I really felt like an outcast.

[LEGAL]

BC I can relate.  What city were you in  Orlando?  In the past I have handled several catastrophic injury cases do to cross walks not being used in the proper way.  I remember in several different country's how nice the cross walks were and were being used properly. We most certainly need more cross walks.

[BillyB]

I just feel that the situation is starting to get out of hand. The "kids in the sandbox" are throwing bigger and bigger things at eachother and soon the maybe will throw a misile 
How do we avoid that?

Don't let paranoia destroya. America is parking defensive missiles around Russia by invitation only from European countries. Do you worry what your opponent thinks if you put on an armored vest if he's pointing a gun at you? Be thankful your leaders care about you and aren't pacifists.

Respectful.

Would you respect the US if we put banners in our airport saying "Death to Iran" or claim "Iran is the great Satan"? Would you talk respectfully to your neighbor if he had banners in his house saying "Death to BC" and claim "BC was the great Satan"? I'm sure there are a lot of good people in Iran but sometimes the brainwashing is too great for them to overcome to say there are a lot of great people in the USA. They are a hostile nation.

What's Gator doing living in Iran? Spy? Delta Force?

Re: Iran- Not much different than our Wahabbi Saudi friends. They lie through their teeth about everything. How about our Pakistani buddies? IMO, an "ally" has to be based on the realpolitick. We need oil and security in the Persian Gulf to get it. Shouldn't make an enemy out of Iran, IMO.

Who says Saudi is our friend? Their government does a lot of bad but it's not about friends with them, it's business. How can we not make an enemy out of Iran when they are making an enemy out of us?

I meet a lot of guys on construction sites who are rough on the edges. Some yell and try to act tougher than others to get their way. Some guys, like Iran, don't get it. Talking respectful to them will get you more of the same treatment they're accustomed to giving. Recently one guy mouth off to me and I said something back to him he didn't like. He charged at me and used his face to hit my fist four times before someone pulled him away. I don't know his real intentions for charging but I don't need my space violated either or the need to feel threaten. I know some of you guys out there believe violence doesn't solve anything but I seen the attitudes of bullies change after they find out they aren't the toughest guy out there. If you let Iran continue to play their games with respect to nuclear and continue to let yourself or country get ran over, you will get ran over.

Iran is a lot worse than Russia when it comes to possessing nuclear arms since they're controlled by loose canons who conduct the business of their country based on little voices in their head that they believe is coming from God.

What realistically can Obama or McCain do to discourage RU from rearming?

I say absolutely nothing.

Right and that's probably why many FSU nations and Europe don't mind us putting up a defensive shield for their benefit. It's cheaper to build a defensive missile than an intercontinental nuclear ballistic missile.

If Putin could have his wish, he'd wish for GWB to remain president.  This is the president to said with Putin and watched the sunset.  This is the president who selected a Secretary of State who speaks Russian and majored in Russian Studies.  This the the president who said he looked in Putin's soul and saw someone who is trustworthy.

Do you think Bush always tells the truth? Do you really think Bush looked into Putin's soul enough to claim him trustworthy? I don't even think Putin believes that. It's foolish for any World leader to trust another 100%. C'mon guys, don't believe everything you hear from politicians.

[LEGAL]

What's Gator doing living in Iran? Spy? Delta Force?

Come on BillyB I thought you knew Gator better than that, He's golfing and scoping out a place to put the next LPGA golf course.

[BC]

Quote from: BC

Respectful.

Would you respect the US if we put banners in our airport saying "Death to Iran" or claim "Iran is the great Satan"?

I might not respect the actions, but I would not treat them disrespectfully.

Would you talk respectfully to your neighbor if he had banners in his house saying "Death to BC" and claim "BC was the great Satan"? I'm sure there are a lot of good people in Iran but sometimes the brainwashing is too great for them to overcome to say there are a lot of great people in the USA. They are a hostile nation.

In fact, I would. In life, someone has to take a bold step forward in order for anyone to get anywhere.

The policy of 'my way or highway' simply does not work outside US borders, and just barely within.  In fact much of the negative views towards the US are fomented by these very same policies.  Do you think a child born in Iran has some anti US gene?

The answers lie in history, but sadly most are intent on making history rather than humbly learning from it.

[Shadow]

IMHO What the U.S. needs is mass transit trains from  Miami to Main and East coast to West coast. While this would not solve all of our fuel consumption it sure would put a big dent in it. I personally like the trains of Europe and have used them quite often.

I use them when I have to, or when I have time to.
Public transport here in Holland is promoted, but kept only just below the price of traveling by car. And while the promotion tells people how easy the trains are, if 10% of the daily car traffic would choose trains, the congestion of train traffic would outperform the traffic jams easily.
The most efficient networks seem to be metro style. A constant supply of carriages at relatively short intervals, combined with reasonable pricing. Of course the Dutch have their famous bicycles for the short distances. 

[steviej]

Analyze Obama’s rhetoric and limited track record and you will find a flaming liberal.  His programs are the same old Democratic liberalism of decades ago in different clothing, e. g. big government, social engineering with taxes, looking inward, etc.  How will taxing oil producers drive down the price of oil? 

The last two Bush administrations have produced both the largest federal budgets by far, and the largest federal deficits by far, of any administration in history. This is the Republicans while controlling ALL 3 branches of government. What will the Democrats do? Well, as you know they are both insane and pathetic, so we can look forward to at least 4 years of hugging Mexicans, having “diversity “ parades, 7th grade in-home tutoring for expectant 12 year old single mothers … LOL. But who’s really more dangerous? The vicious big money interests behind the Republicans at this point have had a feeding frenzy for 8 years. They have to go, no matter what. Will anything good come of it? No.

Obama reminds me of the type of person who blows sunshine up people’s asses.  We have all worked with such people and we know how they never rise to the top, for good reason.  There is no substance.  Obama would make a great press secretary.

… LOL .. Yes indeed. But it may be .. Harmless ..??? We have two major wars going on, and attempts to start two more .. Iran and Russia, in some form. These neo-cons are insane and dangerous S.O.B.s  The Roosevelt Democrats used to be truly a labor party. But ever since Kennedy, they became the "civil rights" party. And ever since then, they've become pathetic helpless and useless. But maybe pathetic is better than dangerous right now.

McCain is McCain.  I wish my man Romney was the candidate, yet the too conservative Republicans spoiled that opportunity.  So I choose from McCain or Obama.  I am very impressed with McCain leadership for the surge in Iraq.  The concept was very unpopular, and personally I would have been with Obama and voted no, and maybe a little supportive of Biden's plan to partition Iraq.  Yet, McCain realized it was the only way to get us out of the mess we created and went against the flow.  That is a prime example of presidential material.

Didn’t notice that we “got out of there” .. ??

With regard to Russia, I think Obama will do little to discourage Russia from rearming.   Russians do not like being weak and will sharpen and rattle sabers.  McCain is not a war monger but will face any challenge.  Obama instead will call on the world community, a good idea to start but “more” will be needed.  I don’t think he has “more” in him other than to whisper to the Chinese to have a go at the Ruskies using its army of millions of horny men.

The world will not get simpler and kinder and we need someone at the helm who knows what to do.

Russia should certainly rearm. I would. Sitting between a hostile NATO , China, and bordering the Middle East? What idiot wouldn’t want to rearm? The world will not get kinder, and it never did or has. We are the ones that are out of control now, though. Irrational and dangerous foreign policy. We have been seduced into becoming "democratic jihadists". .... Bad bad bad ...

And having an "ally" lying through his teeth will surely add a great deal to the security.

Pakistan is nuclear; the Saudis are themselves under the siege of Al-Qaeda.   

Pakistan is .. Muslim … Nuclear …and .. .OUR FRIEND ! No reason not to include Iran. Just takes two things: First, they pledge to keep the oil flowing and keep the Gulf secure, with our help. Then, we have no problem with them Second, we declare our policy of neutrality w.r.t. Israel. Deal done. No more terrorists.

Don't let paranoia destroya. America is parking defensive missiles around Russia by invitation only from European countries.

While it may be good business for the defense companies, and even if the Europe guys want it, that doesn’t make it good policy for Americans. Why do we keep letting them drag us into their fights? We’re probably paying for it too. Are they buying all our stuff? Are we making money on it? Or are we sucking the money out of our own workers for them? I’d like to know that.

[kievstar]

Does anyone on this board really understand alternative energy?  I used to do some consulting for acciona (Spanish company).  You can read on this company's website about wind, solar, etc. I would suggest people realize that with wind power it is combined with other methods.  Biggest problem with alternative power is the upfront cost needed.  Without help from the government companies can not make it work.  Roughly $600 billion capital is needed to drop oil need by 10% in USA.  Which is 2.5% of World use.  2.5% is a big impact.  Iraq war cost how much??  This $600 billion can be paid with tax incentives so is not as high as it seems.

For cars the future will be cars that have canvas type frames and small engines.  To make this work all current cars will have to be banned from the road for safety.  This will not happen in the USA for obvious reasons. You can make this type of car with all the electronics for about $4,000 cost.  Expect to see this in 3rd world countries were safety is not as important. 

[diverboy70]

I understand alternative energy. In our local community we use about 75% wind energy. The only thing that is missing is a cable to Sweden, if we get that we will be 100 % wind energy 

[Shadow]

I understand alternative energy. In our local community we use about 75% wind energy. The only thing that is missing is a cable to Sweden, if we get that we will be 100 % wind energy 

The big investments have to be calculated in to the profitability. If a product can not exist without government subsidies, it means it is not profitable. Wind energy has a very big investment, and a windmill has a pay-back time of over 15 years. Unfortunately it needs a complete revision of the main parts every 5 years which means that in reality the investment is never earned back.
With rising prices this might change, but until then this too is a paper tiger that could not exist without the need of governments to show something in return for rising taxes.

[I/O]

I understand alternative energy. In our local community we use about 75% wind energy. The only thing that is missing is a cable to Sweden, if we get that we will be 100 % wind energy 

Finally, someone gets close to understanding the obvious. Simply plug into your (Any) nation's capital and you have all the hot air energy to run the entire nation and then some free of charge. Too simple really.

I/O

[Ronnie]

Do you think Bush always tells the truth? Do you really think Bush looked into Putin's soul enough to claim him trustworthy? I don't even think Putin believes that. It's foolish for any World leader to trust another 100%. C'mon guys, don't believe everything you hear from politicians.

BillyB,
Duh.  Of course Bush didn't look into Putin's soul.  If he had, he would have a seen a deathly void as in all murderous thugs.  What Bush was trying to do, and we all understood that, was to give Putin a chance to straighten up and fly right.  It was a plan doomed to failure of course but I don't blame him for trying.

[kievstar]

Putin was raised KGB.  He also wants Russia to be like it used to be but with a better run government.  Meaning oil money, steel money, any business money is Russian owned and they have learned from past mistakes.  For anyone investing in Russia and Ukraine stock markets be careful as it may drop even more.  Now is a good idea to play the derivative market on certain companies dropping in value. A lot of people think Russian stock market cannot drop further than 50% this year. 

I think we will see Crimea join Russia.  Maybe not this year but after next Ukraine president election.  Eastern Ukraine will not want to join Russia as most of Ukraines millionaires come from there and they will not want to deal with Putin.  They only got rich from steel and Putin will take this back.  Unfortunately eastern Ukraine only has low grade steel left.  But Putin can use this steel for its own people and sell the best stuff overseas.

Putin realized Russia was starting to struggle and needs the former countries back.  Ukraine for food, other countries for resources and barrier from the west and middle east. 

[Ronnie]

Kievstar,
Nobody wants to join Russia.  Get that out of your head.  Not South Ossetia, not Abkhazia, not eastern Ukraine and not Crimea.  Some may want closer (nostaligic) ties with Russia, but not join..that would be insane.  Why insane?  Because they know full well that Russia is now a KGB state.  and you know, nobody likes the KGB outside the KGB family. 

Russia doesn't need any of the former republics back, BTW.  What Russia's KGB rulers want is isolation.  They want to build a moat around their domain...not to keep out others but to keep their own people in, just as they did in Soviet days. 

The Kremlin is very concerned about depopulation and rightly so. Before they return to the old iron-curtain approach of restricting exits, they want to stoke the fires of nationalism (through anti-west propaganda) to the point where those who would have emigrated will feel they shouldn't. 


I will add that Putin understands full well that in order to gain support for your government you sometimes have to "create" an external enemy.  Putin successfully employed that strategy in the apartment bombings and is now acusing the US of employing it in Georgia to get Americans to rally around the Republicans.  So, this tactic is something Putin spends a lot of time thinking about.