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Author Topic: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view  (Read 3830 times)

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Offline BeenThereDoneThat

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Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« on: August 29, 2008, 08:01:42 PM »
I know this subject has been beaten to death on RWD and other forums, but yet, many men in their 40's & 50's continue to pursue women in their 20's in Ukraine, Russia and other FSU countries. While many have certainly have shared their personal, logical & realistic views on this subject, in reality, what are the statistics, the exceptions and the risks? I ask this in pursuit for stimulating informative conversation on age gaps, not just to re-express the hundreds of age gaps views that have already been stated here on RWD. With that, to kick things off, below are a few articles that I found on this subject...

Article #1:
So, ok.
You're an old(er) western man and you've been told countless times that in the FSU it is very usual for women to marry much older men.
15,20, even 30 years of age difference are said to be common.

I myself think that ANY age difference more than 10 years ought to be carefully scrutinized, the more as the gap increases.

Well, over the internet there are debates where Barney, Leroy, Pedro and Wong all tell their story.
On some forums, most men will swear that big age gaps are the norm.
I personally think there are 2 or 3 reasons why an old-er- man would want a woman young enough to be his daughter and 2 or 3 reasons as well why such woman would marry such a man.
So Barney argues endlessly with Pedro.

Where is the truth?
Below you find UN statistics.
Sorry, guys, but you're victim of used car salesmen, agency owners & middlemen and have been -once again- feeding you a line of hogwash, lies and overly simplified, self-serving analysis.

MEAN AGE AT FIRST MARRIAGE; TOTAL, weighted average
Ukraine (1982-2000): 21, * years old FEMALE/ 24,* years old MALE
Tajikistan (1982-1995): 21,* years old FEMALE /24,* years old MALE
Italy (1982-2000): 26,* years old female/ 29,* years old male
Germany (1982-2001): 26,* YO female/ 29,* YO male
Kazachstan ( 1982-1999): 23,* YO female /25,* YO male
Russia (1982-2000): 21,* YO female/ 24,* YO male
Portugal (1982-2001): 25,* YO female /27,* YO male
Sweden (1982-2001): 29,* YO female / 31,* YO male

Now it looks like you've (on average) 2-4 years age gap, and it spans across "latin" countries such as Italy or Portugal, nordic countries such as Sweden, poor FSu countries such as Tajikistan, then Russia and Ukraine.

Still, a few seem to be convinced 20+yo age difference is common in FSU marriages.
Again, these are UN statistics, not what I, Pedro or Wong said.

Article #2:
Age Gap Relationships
Author: Jan Andersen
http://anti-aging.ivapip.qupis.com/Age_Gap_Relationships.php

I am 42 years old and my partner is 30. I did not consciously choose my partner because he was younger, but because we were on a level spiritually and emotionally and he possessed all the qualities that I would want in the ideal partner.

The age that you are chronologically doesn't necessarily equate to a certain level of maturity or even attitude or interests. You can, for example, have two twenty-year- olds with totally diverse interests, a different outlook on life and different degrees of maturity and yet you can find a 70-year-old who is on a similar wavelength to a 30- year-old.

The Reverend Barry Trill, 59, is a retired vicar from Hastings, Sussex and in June this year, his wife, Sharon, who is 30 years' his junior gave birth to their first child. If you witnessed the two of them together, you would have no idea that the age gap between them was so large. This just proves that biological age is often so different to your real age.

The point is that age is one of the least important factors in maintaining a successful relationship. I have several friends who are happily married to, or involved with, much older or younger partners. Whether the man or the woman is the older partner, the essential ingredients that uphold the relationship are companionship, compatibility, compassion, understanding, kindness, affection and trust - factors that don't necessarily bear any relation to age.

In the past, the media in particular have insidiously set the framework for acceptability and propagated the idea that in order to be desirable you have to be young and emaciated and that if you're past a certain age you have little hope of finding a partner. However, an increase in societal acceptance towards age gap relationships has widened the scope for newly single or divorced people, who can now look outside the confines of their own age groups in pursuit of the perfect match.

Jayne, a customer service advisor, would agree. She is 52 and her husband, Malcolm is 34. They met a local club in Swindon, Wiltshire when they were both on a night out with their respective friends. Jayne, who had already been divorced twice and had three grown-up daughters, was not looking for a relationship and would certainly not have thought of finding a partner in a place that was full of youngsters, mostly under the age of 25.

Jayne says, "I was just out having a few drinks, a dance and a good laugh with the girls from work. The last thing I thought was that I would meet my future husband in a place that was renowned for being a cattle market, where young lads picked up girls for one night stands and vice versa.

I was waiting to be served at the bar when this gorgeous, blond guy, with an amazing suntan and smile to match, moved in by the side of me and started making small talk. When he then asked me to dance, I thought he was having a joke or that he had been sent on a dare by his mates. When I realised that he was seriously interested in me, I was quite rude to him and told him that he was only after a bit of experience because I was older. I asked him what he really wanted with me, when he could have had his pick of all the beautiful young girls in the club, with tight bums and boobs up under their chins?

His reply was, "They may look good, but wait until they open their mouths. You can't have a decent conversation with them and, besides, you're not afraid to let your hair down and have a good time and that makes you far more beautiful than any eighteen year old. You'd be lucky if those girls let you near them in case you messed up their makeup or hair. And what happens when they get older and don't have the personality to replace the looks?"

As you now know, the rest is history. We began dating nine years ago and have been married for five."

Here is Malcolm's story. "My friend and I, who are in the air force, had just returned from a posting in Cyprus and we had a couple of weeks' break before our next mission. When we are working, we don't have a social life to speak of, so we decided to make the most of our free time and go out to a local nightclub. Although we were both single, the purpose of the night out was to have a laugh and a few beers. We had no intention of trying to find a date.

We had been in the club for a couple of hours, most of our time having been spent propping up the bar, when we noticed a group of women nearby obviously having a really good time, laughing amongst themselves and occasionally getting up to dance with each other. They seemed different to most of the others girls in the place - more laid back, natural, no airs or graces and definitely not there to be "on show".

I was particularly mesmerised by a tall, more mature woman with red hair, who had an obvious Cockney accent, but was dressed very stylishly, without all her fleshy bits hanging out, like so many of the younger (and not necessarily slim) girls in the place.

She was a bit taken aback when I first approached her at the bar. She obviously regarded me, like most of the other guys in the place, as someone who was just after a one-night stand or a bit of experience with an older woman. It took some time for me to convince her that I was genuinely interested in her - and not just for a short-term fling.

Naturally, I didn't initially know whether or not she was married and the fact that she wasn't wearing a wedding ring didn't really mean anything. I have known many people who have removed their rings before going out, although she didn't really seem the type to do something as callous as that.

Luckily for me, she wasn't involved with anyone and we spent the rest of the night talking. By the end of the evening, I knew that this was definitely the woman for me. I wasn't fazed by the eighteen-year age gap and, besides, younger women tend to expect so much more from their men and can make them feel inadequate. You don't have to teach an older woman anything. I like to think that Jayne has taught me a few lessons about life, amongst other things!

However, it did take Jayne a long time to trust me because she had been divorced twice and was very cynical about men in general.

Initially, Jayne kept refusing my proposals of marriage because she said she didn't want to hold me back if I wanted to go off with someone younger, someone who could bear my children. Because Jayne has had a hysterectomy, I had to accept that we would never have children of our own. Although I love kids, spending a lifetime with someone I love is far more important. I don't believe that having children could make me any happier than I already am. Besides, children grow up and leave home, so the relationship with your partner has to be the most important element.

I'm glad she gave me a chance because the last nine years have been the happiest of my life and I couldn't ask for more."

Jayne and Brian are just one example of the thousands of couples whose love and compatibility transcends an age gap, however great.

Heidi, 42, met David, 58, when she began working as a flight stewardess for Saudi Airlines. David was an airline pilot at the time, but has since retired and the couple now live in Saudi Arabia for part of the year and England for the other half.
They have been together for over 20 years and, as Heidi says, "David has just as much energy now as he had at the age of 35 when we first started dating. And the wonderful thing is that I will always be the younger woman, so I have no worries about him suddenly eyeing up a more youthful model. Besides, I think he's probably already gone through the male midlife crisis bit, not that I noticed!

Age is just a state of mind. We have all known people who look younger than they are and are in better physical condition than others who are half their age. Similarly, you may know a young person who has the mental and physical age of someone a lot more mature.

My partner has a maturity that greatly exceeds his years, whereas I still have the mental age of someone in their teens. Consequently, despite the fact that I am twelve years older than my partner, he has the more mature mind.

As the saying goes, "You are the age you feel." Therefore, the way that you are in your mind and heart is an important factor in alleviating differences in age, something that is reflected in your appearance, your thoughts, your actions and your feelings.

If we all adhered to the pre-conceived guidelines that society sets about what is regarded as a normal relationship, then there would be an awful lot of lonely and unhappy people in this world. And those who step outside those boundaries would have more chance of their relationships thriving if well-meaning acquaintances stopped judging and interfering. Age gap relationships can fail for the same reasons that any other relationship fails, but it's all too easy for the sceptics to focus on the age difference as the sole cause and I have also seen several potentially healthy relationships fall apart because of unwanted intervention by other people.

It is time that everyone realised that true love knows no boundaries, least of all age.

Jan Andersen is a British Freelance Writer and Humorist and mother of four children. Jan specialises in satirical and inspirational articles, features, columns, sketches and screenplays on diverse issues from relationships and parenting, to social issues and alternative medicine. Jan is in the process of completing a humorous, non-fiction book and is currently writing two comedy screenplays.

Article #3:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=723221&gsessionid=PnzFqTGzPkw
Could someone please find some statistics regarding age differences in marriage?

For Example: How successful do marriages tend to be when the male is
10+ years older than the female? What is the general level of
happiness? (And also compare this level to people who marry someone
much closer to their own age.) How common is it for males to be 10+
years older than the
female?

Focus please on the man being 10+ years older, or even 15+ years.

Also how often is it for females below the age of approx. 25(+/- a few
years) to marry a man 10+ years older than herself. And what are the
divorce rates for those couples who do marry with the large age gap?

Any further statistics you can find regarding this topic, as well as
the sources, would be absolutely wonderful!

Subject: Re: Large age differences in marriage?
From: probonopublico-ga on 27 Apr 2006 01:13 PDT   
Several of my friends have married women up to 15 years younger and
they all seem very happy.
So Go Ahead & Good Luck!
By contrast, marriage between folks of a similar age often finish in divorce.
 
Subject: Re: Large age differences in marriage?
From: fstokens-ga on 28 Apr 2006 10:51 PDT   
You may want to consider relative age difference, rather than absolute
difference.  A 10-year difference is much more significant at age 30
than at age 60!
 
Article #4:
http://www.aish.com/dating/advice/Dating_Maze_239_-__Too_Big_a_Gap$.asp
Mom is worried about being the same age as her future son-in-law!
by Rosie Einhorn, L.C.S.W. and Sherry Zimmerman, J.D., M.Sc.
Dear Rosie & Sherry,

I'm plotzing! My 24-year-old daughter is dating a 37-year-old man! His parents are thrilled that he's dating a nice Jewish girl. What's wrong with this picture?? He's never been married and is self-supporting. What could he possibly see in my beautiful YOUNG daughter? He's practically my own age!

She's had previous courtships with young men close to her age. But this? She met him at work and he's very nice. But if he's as nice as he appears, then why isn't he already married??

Robyn

Dear Robyn ,

We've seen enough May-December marriages to know that they can be happy and enduring successes. Nevertheless, we can understand your concerns, because large age gaps between daters, as well as spouses, are not that common. And from a parent's perspective, you cannot understand why an attractive, well-functioning man in his mid-30s is not yet married.

Let's answer your last question first -- why this man isn't already married with children. Today, adults tend to "launch" married life later than in previous generations, because they focus on finishing their educations, embarking on careers, and building a financial base before they consider themselves independent and ready to settle down. It often takes today's adults longer to reach these goals than they did in the past.

 
Contemporary culture exerts a strong influence on the decision to delay marriage.   
 
The traditional Jewish outlook encourages individuals to marry in young adulthood and complete many of these goals during marriage. However, contemporary culture exerts a strong influence on the decision to delay marriage. These expectations extend beyond late launching dates; they also include the views held by segments of society that self-fulfillment can be maximized as a single, that a person should focus on himself above all others, and that marriage is just one of many acceptable lifestyle choices.

It isn't surprising, then, that many well-functioning men and women first consider the idea of getting married and raising children when they feel they have reached a comfortable level of independence and maturity, and/or they're tired of living a largely self-absorbed lifestyle.

There are many other reasons why well-functioning people in their thirties are single. Many people who have been "dating for marriage" have encountered difficulties in their dating. The difficulties are as varied as not knowing what one is looking for, looking for the wrong qualities in a date, resistance to opening up to a dating partner, having unrealistic expectations, being a social "late bloomer," always looking for someone better, not knowing how to network properly, trouble moving on after a break-up, and not addressing emotional blocks, and many other reasons too numerous to mention here.

It's natural for a parent to be concerned that their child's dating partner will be able to build a relationship that can lead to marriage, has dealt with any emotional blocks that kept him from marrying in the past, and will be able to make a commitment if the couple turns out to be right for each other. While these concerns may be heightened when a person is in his mid-30s, they should be legitimate concerns for any courtship. The same issues that can keep a 35-year-old "perpetually single," have the potential to cause relationship problems for a 25-year-old single. We encourage anyone who has been dating for a number of years without success to take a closer look at themselves to discover what unproductive dating patterns and thought processes may be keeping them from getting married, and to change them. Many times, a dating mentor or therapist can help them accomplish this.

Meeting at Work

Let's assume that the man your daughter is dating has addressed whatever issues may have contributed to his single status, and that he and your daughter are both dating with the goal of finding the right person to marry. You asked us what could they possibly see in each other? Plenty. Thirteen years isn't as large an age gap as one might think -- technically, they're still in the same "generation," and in many families there are even greater differences in ages between older and younger siblings. And there's no reason why a woman in her early-20s and a man in his mid-30s can't have values, tastes, and expectations for the future that are in sync.

What more telling is that your daughter and this man met through work. We've observed that most couples with a large age gap decide to date after they meet through work, in a group setting, at a friend's Shabbat table, or while volunteering together. They might have been inclined to reject the idea of a blind date with someone much younger or older, but once they actually meet, make an initial connection, and find out they have a lot in common, they may decide to date and see if they can develop a serious relationship.

 
At work, they've observed how each other acts in stressful, non-date situations.   
 
Clearly, your daughter believes that this man has qualities that were not present in the younger men she dated. And because they've gotten to know each other through work, they may have already observed a lot about how each other acts in non-date situations -- i.e. aspects of their personalities that they don't put "on display" for a date, such as how they act when they are under stress. This is fortunate, because insight into each other's ways of dealing with the world is something many people don't give themselves enough time to acquire when they are dating.

Our own belief is that as long as a couple is comfortable with their ages -- no matter what the age gap, and no matter which of the partners is older -- they should be thankful that they found each other. Yes, there can be issues they'll have to deal with, such as the fact that one of the partners may have health issues, or will think about retiring, long before these are issues the other partner will have to confront. Also, it may be harder for someone who has been single for a long time to make adjustments to married life. Yet, all of these issues can be satisfactorily addressed.

While a couple can be comfortable with their age differences, it may be harder for their families to do so. In your case, it sounds like you were a young parent, making this man closer to your age than to hers! Or, it may be because you find it difficult to accept something that is very different than your own expectations. Whatever the reason, we hope that you will be able to focus more on the true concern in any courtship: Whether the couple will be able to develop the qualities that are the foundation for an enduring life together.

Of course, be on the lookout for any "red flags." But on the other hand, be careful not to create a problem where there is none.

We hope this has been helpful,
Rosie & Sherry

VISITORS COMMENTS: 20


(20) tamar, 10/10/2007
I once heard
that the youngest you can date without it being creepy is half of your age plus 7.

But I found it interesting that the writer thought it strange that a man of 37 was not married yet... I find 24 so young to be getting married. Yikes! Thank G-d I didn't get married so young, I know too many people who've gotten divorces for never having experienced "themselves". I guess it's different when you are religious, though I can't see why.
(19) Rachel, 9/10/2007
to linda
Why is it not ok for the woman to be older as opposed to the man?! It sounds like your grandparents have had a successful marriage. It almost makes more sense that way since women live longer lives on average than men. Like Rosie and Sherry said, as long as a couple is comfortable with their ages -- no matter what the age gap, and no matter which of the partners is older -- they should be thankful that they found each other. There's nothing in Torah that says that the woman must be younger.

(18) linda, 30/9/2007
at least he's the older one...
my grandparents divorced after my mom left home. My grandma later remarried to a man 13 years younger than her.
My mom has never forgiven her, even though my grandparents have been married are married 48 years! It's okay for the man to be older, but if the woman is older, that's reallllly not okay!

(17) William Saltiel-Gracian, 26/9/2007

This notion of thinking couples need to be "the same age" is nothing more than a modern American pop-culture hang-up. Does anyone seriously think any of the Patriarchs married "within their age group" ?


(16) Anonymous, 26/9/2007
Age difference preference
Thanks for that article on the "age-gap". As for me, I prefer Jewish women who are slightly older than me of not much more than 4-5 years max, 3 months min. older than me.
(15) MEL, 20/9/2007
My Son
My son got married in June, at 35, after many years of dating and trying to find his bashert. What was wrong with him? nothing, just in the wrong places at the wrong times until Hashem matched him up with an absloutely perfect girl of 28. Don't be so judgemental Robyn, remeber the guy your daughter is dating is some mother's son that she is davening for to find his bashert. It is all in the hands of Hashem, leave it to Him.

(14) Anonymous, 16/9/2007
great article
my grandparents were happily married, 13 years' age difference. age has nothing to do with it, it's all about the people themselves.

(13) Anonymous, 16/9/2007

The life is not so simple. 10 - 12 years difference can be not big gap, when people in the same life stage and can be very big, if life stage is different. It is not only health problems, if one spouse will getting not so young, it can be problems in intimate life as well. It can be situation, when young woman will constantly find herself in a company of people much older then her (his friends), because much older husband will not able to make up with her young friends. I'm not talking about first 5-10 years of marriage, but we all expect to be married till 120 and in the long run it seems better to be with somebody you can grow old together.

(12) Nechama, 16/9/2007

My daughter married a man 11 years her senior when she was in her early twenties. They have 11 beautiful children, bless them, and are very happily married, baruch Hashem.
He is a wonderful father and husband in every way.
Good luck and G-d bless!

(11) Joey, 13/9/2007
Numbers and Personality
The more important issue in "May-December" romances, it seems to me, is where the two people are in terms of their life. It doesn't seem as strange for an eighty- and ninety-year-old to date as a twenty- and thirty-year-old. The reason the latter case is likely to not work, I think, is because a twenty-year-old is at a different stage of life (newly adult, likely not completely established yet, etc.) than a thirty-year-old (experienced adult, probably established financially, etc.) In other words, if Robyn's daughter is mature and independent (or if her boyfriend is immature and dependent---though of course the former is better :-) then the couple will have more success than they would if they were at different places in life.

God bless.

(10) Anonymous, 12/9/2007
It is true that online dating makes people seek
shuidduchim with wide age gaps. A Year ago I was on one of the popular on line shidduch sites, and I kept getting emails from men who were too old for me, and too young for me as well. I took offense to this, and felt it was a dangerous trend, and quickly got off the site. I think some people may have certain motives to seek shidduchim with wide gaps. But a 10 year gap if a guy is older than a woman is ok if one is 20, and the guy is 30/ woman 30, guy 40, etc. But when there are gaps that look like people are dating their parents is shameful.
If there is a gap of 2 years younger a guy is to a woman that is ok. But anything else looks strange.
Shanah Tovah to all. Success in fidning one;s Bashert in a erlich way.


(9) Anonymous, 12/9/2007
A 37 (M) dates a 24 (F)...because he can.
In today's dating world, males trend towards a minimum 10-year age gap between themselves and their mates. Frightening, yes. Unheard of, no. Online dating, anyone? 40s (F) get woos from the feisty 69s (M) down to the mid-50s; 30s (F) get emails from a high of 59 to a low of 43 (M), and so on.

Of course, the reverse action should be enacted: since men die an average of 7 years prior to females, women should date an average of 7 - 10 years YOUNGER for a chance of truly living together until death do they part (hopefully within the same decade).

But try telling men that...

--From the Trenches

(8) Anonymous, 11/9/2007
This is the trend today
A large age gap between men and women in marriage is quickly becoming the norm. Men are delaying marriage for many reasons. Mostly they are just not mature enough in their 20's. We live in a world of Peter Pans. When they get close to 40 or over 40 and finally think about a family, they want a young woman who most likely won't have any fertility issues. In their view much younger women are more easily molded to their liking, and are more controllable. Both appealing character traits to men. Many women today, prefer to stay at home with their kids so they look for an older guy with more money. If this works for a couple good for them. However, women should keep in mind that there are men out there who prey on younger women because they want some young thing to take care of them in their old age. In addition, women should be prepared to be the caregiver to their husbands at a much younger age than we usually see in today's world.

(7) Anonymous, 11/9/2007
My parents
My parents are approximately 12 years apart and they have been happily married now for 26 years, may Hashem bless them with many more.

(6) Anonymous, 11/9/2007
A 10 year gap if the man is older than his wife is
ok by me, my concern is when a woman is 10-20 yrs older than a guy, or a guy is 15- 20 years older than a woman. That is when psycholgical, and physical stamina problems develop. Patience is truly tested, and marriage is hard enough without this obstacle too. My late mom and my dad may he live to 120/ were 8 yrs apart, she was younger than him by 8 years and he still became a widower, also when he married a woman over 20 years younger he too became a widower. Age is only a number but mental and physical issues should be considered along with basic lifestyle issues, and above all Middiot! True love without conditons and the ablity to committ both in good times and bad times is the key for an enduring marriage. My ex husband were 3 years apart he is older than me 3 years, and yet his maturity level was a man child mama's boy all though our painful 13 years marriage! So here it was not age, but lack of maturity.
Currently if a shidduch is suggested to me I say I will date guys not older than 10 years my senior, and not younger than 2 years my junior. I feel this is a good age gap criteria. But that is due to lifestyle issues, and other considerations. Good Morals is a must for me/ and trust/good communication, honesty/ integrity, and compatiable lifesyle/Hashkafah are essential for me as well. Unconditional love though good and bad times is also very important to me as well.
Much success for all to find their Basherts in a mazeldik time/ shanah tovah to one and all.

(5) Adam, 10/9/2007

I am a thirty-nine year old man and want to give my perspective. I want to first say that due to my young looks and very inquistive outlook that people, thoughout my life, thought I was five to eight years younger than my chronological age. I personally have never connected with people my own age and knew I would not marry anyone older than a decade my junior. With this in mind, I didn't consider dating until I was thirty.

Not dating in my twenties, gave me the opportunity to complete my education and settle into a career path so that I could financially and emotionally stable in order to support my future wife and our kids. Since turning thirty I have been on dates with only five women (only one went beyond the first date status). I concluded that they didn't work out well because I was not ready to get married and therefore, had't clarified for what characteristics I was searching. It is only now, that I truly feel ready to find someone to married. My career is going well and have saved up a large nest egg to start a life with my future kallah.

Maybe your daughter's beau is similar to me with this respect. As for age differentials, my sister is fifteen years younger than her husband and they have a great marriage. I also have a friend who's wife is fifteen years his junior and they, too have a great marriage. What you, as the potential mother-in-law, should focus in on is are they compatible with each other. Is his behaviour and outlook young enough to match your daughter's? If the answer is "yes", get over your misguided notion of what is a proper age differential.

(4) Anonymous, 9/9/2007
Ten years apart
My husband and I are 10 years apart and our families accepted it. I had more in common with him than the guys closer in age. We now have a nine-month-old son. I have a friend who married at 18 to a 28 year old. They've been married 12 years. My aunt and uncle are also 12 years apart. If they have the same outlook in life and values and there aren't any serious problems, what is the problem?

(3) Anonymous, 9/9/2007
While I am not single minded or Prejudice=
I am not an advocate of big age gaps between couples. I have a hard time dealing with if a man is much younger than a woman, or a woman is much younger than a guy. I am concerned if the couple will have things in common, will they get alongok if there is a second marriage, with children from previous marriages. Also I think what would I have in commom with a guy younger than me- will I be able to keep up with him. And if he is much older will he be able to have patience and understanding of me, and my son's lifestyle? These are issues to consider about age gaps. But a person's over all Middiot, and compatiblity of lifestyle and the willingness to compromise and accept one another uncoditionally are the keys to making a shidduch work. Without these attributes the relationship is doomed. So please keep these items in mind when searching for one's Bashert.
May this Shanah Tovah, bring Basherts to all those who are deserving.
Kol tov to all Chasimah Tovah to one and all!
A Friend.

(2) Diana, 9/9/2007
You were RIGHT!!!!
Rosie and Sherry,

You were right. You probably do not remember me, but I am the 34 year old engineer who wrote you some time ago about the 56 year old engineer I was dating then. You gently informed me that we were going to probably be at diferent life stages. I thought that would not be an issue, but you were right! He quickyly grew stubborn, and he knew there was a fine dining restaurant (not at all expensive, about $20 per entree) that I LOVE. Instead of ever taking me there, he always took me to cheap casual dining places where he insisted on wearing jeans and the entrees (I mean sandwiches) were only $6 each. Do NOT get me wrong. It is not about the money being spent, but he NEVER wanted to take me anywhere nice. Well, long story short,I started dating a very nice man who is only 3 years my senior. Without asking, he took me to that favorite restaurant of mine one our first date. I am of the belief that older men will try to take advantage of younger women and are not necessarily kinder. My new sweetie is everything any woman could pray for in a man. Keep up the good work!

(1) Anonymous, 9/9/2007
older men/younger women
I was 19. He was 28. He had been married very briefly at a very young age and had a child. We met through our synagogue, which was full of young baal tshuva singles. Two months later, we were engaged. My mom was VERY worried, to say the least!
Four kids and 7 granchildren later (with 2 more grandkids on the way ken yirbu), we celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary last week. My mom, who in later years said my husband "is the best man she's ever met" has Alzeimers now. She lives with us - my husband's suggestion. And for those who feared I'd way outlive my husband, I have friends who were widowed in their 30s, whose husbands were much closer to their ages, stricken prematurely by terrible illnesses. Several seemingly more age-compatible marriagea (on paper, at least) of friends were felled by divorce. Have there been rough spots? Yes! But not because of age, just the normal trials and tribulations of that thing called Life. With G-d's help, prayer, love, commitment, mentschlichkeit, common goals and values, it can - and does - work.
My husband is the love of my life!

Article #5:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080228071449AAJS1Zq
How many of you are in large age gap marriages or relationships?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 08:04:17 PM by BeenThereDoneThat »

Offline steviej

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 08:59:14 AM »
First, I'll admit I haven't studied all the references in your post in detail (too long!! :) ), but by including all the "masses" in the statistics in the above, the affect you are looking for is being washed out. What I mean is, a 27 yr old man cannot marry a woman even 10 years younger than he is. About the largest plausible spread might be 5 yrs. So, there must be a fairly high minimum age cutoff for the man (I'll just deal with men here). I would say the minimum age would have to be 42-45 yrs old. I would go with 45. In that case, a woman who is 20 yrs. younger is 25. That is plausible. Even then, the maximum would only be in the range of 23 yrs. difference (a woman of 22). The second factor of importance which must be separated out is economic. If a woman of 25 is being courted by a man of 45, she has visible evidence of his success and position in life, or not. Money and power, even on a modest scale, are aphrodesiacs. Why? Because it proves to her subconscious that he has "good genes" and fits in with the "alpha" males. These are strong attractions to a woman. A man who is 45 and a financial failure will have a very difficult time trying to court a 25 yr old woman. On the other hand, a man who is 25 can only be evalutated on his potential, which includes all the future successes and future failures, again a much larger pool. A woman may evaluate a man of 25 yr much more only on the romantic component, but I'm sure she is also assessing her feeling about his potential as an alpha male provider and protector. However, there is no hard evidence yet. So the second cutoff must be something related to economic success or level. Maybe the top 25% group of income? (something like that). Lastly, I think it is more likely for a man of 45 yr. old to pursue a younger woman if he has been married before, and likewise to perhaps be considered as more desirable by the younger woman as well if he's been married before. A man of 45 who has never been married before may be less likely to pursue a woman of 25 (I'm just making a supposition here). So, in my study I would try to have well defined cutoffs:

- Mimimim age of men in sample:    45 yrs
- Minimum economic level:  top 25% (in terms of Western income distribution)
- Married at least once before  (perhaps the least significant requirement)

In this case you might start to see a larger percentage of marriages with larger age differences, which are lost in the huge sample of "everyone." It is the older "elite" men that tend to marry much younger women.

Does this apply to the world of AM/RW marriages? Yes, because in relative terms, in the eyes of the FSUW, many more of the older AMs will satisfy the second criteria. For most women anywhere, this is more of a "good genes" statement than anything related to being "gold diggers." Of course, there are some gold diggers, but the largest effect is the good genes of the alpha male. For example, there are many more women interested in Anderson Cooper than  me, and it isn't just because he's more wealthy than me. His wealth is a testament to his high quality genes. I remember reading recently that in Moscow, for example, a RM who is considered successful in business is expected, within his circles, to have a beautiful young wife on his arm. So, it is not just an AM/RW effect.


Offline Gator

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 12:01:55 PM »
Where is the summary?

Offline kievstar

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 02:50:41 PM »
I know several girls in Ukraine who want a man 15-25 years older and they told me an older man has money and more mature.  When you bring the subject up about what happens when they die (men do not live as long as women generally) and your left raising children they said we want men with money.  Basically an older man who has money can date younger.  Not different from any country in the World.  One thing to note these women want children.   

Not sure why we always talk about age gaps.  Age is relative. 


Offline northlakeca

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 03:22:04 PM »
I'm more of a reader than a poster, but I'll jump in here to ask; "What about love?" ...Do these women you speak of kievstar seek a man with money, iregardless if there are any feelings of love???

I know several girls in Ukraine who want a man 15-25 years older and they told me an older man has money and more mature.  When you bring the subject up about what happens when they die (men do not live as long as women generally) and your left raising children they said we want men with money.  Basically an older man who has money can date younger.  Not different from any country in the World.  One thing to note these women want children.   

Not sure why we always talk about age gaps.  Age is relative. 



Offline roykirk

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 03:42:05 PM »
The part about the Jewish couple with the approx. 13 year age gap (phrased as a question of concern by the girl's mother) hit home, and it reminded me of the differences I've noticed between AW and my fiance.

Before I met my girl, I had dated an AW who was about 9 years my junior (in her late twenties).  She didn't know or ask how old I was during our first several dates.  Later, when she discovered my age, she remarked that she was glad she didn't know how old I was when I first asked her out because she never would have considered it.  I ended the relationship for other reasons than the age gap, which never really was an issue, but it reminded me of what I disliked about AW most when it came to my situation.  I've rarely met or known any AW who would date a man more than about 5 years older than them; they don't even give them a chance.  Since I was closing in on 40 and still wanted to have a family, I realized very quickly that I wanted to look to meet women in their mid to late twenties to have a good chance at it.  At the same time, I realized meeting an AW in this demographic was going to be very difficult.

My fiance', 11.5 years my junior, was very open minded about the whole age thing.  From my profile, she of course knew how old I was up front.  She told me later that she really didn't think about the age gap initially, she just said it seemed like we had a lot in common.  Although she did admit also that she was waiting to find out if someone my age could keep up with her.  ;-)  Once she found out I could, she was confident we were a good match.  I remember she scolded me one time when I remarked that any RW on these websites who said they were looking for men more than 15 years older than them were automatically questionable (i.e. scammers).  She told me quite simply, "Some of them may be, but maybe for most of them it's more about finding love than fixating on age."  I think that's more true than people think.

Offline vwrw

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 04:27:56 PM »
I'm more of a reader than a poster, but I'll jump in here to ask; "What about love?" ...Do these women you speak of kievstar seek a man with money, iregardless if there are any feelings of love???

A while ago Lily said, and I agreed with her absolutely. “It is NOT the money that attracts the women but rather the success qualities that allow a man to earn the money that really attract the woman.”

Here is a list of 10 "Must Have Qualities" for Business Success

HONESTY: SELF-CONTROL: DEDICATION: LOYALTY: PRIDE: PATIENCE: ACCOUNTABILITY: INITIATIVE: DIGNITY: SELF RESPECT: DISCIPLINE: PERSEVERANCE: HUMILITY: COURTESY:: RESPONSIBILITY: INDOMINITABLE SPIRIT: LEADERSHIP:

To my mind it could be impossible difficult not to fall in love with a person who  possesses all these qualities, do not you think so?
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Offline I/O

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 05:41:51 PM »
Here is a list of 10 "Must Have Qualities" for Business Success

Are these really "must have"? Just to throw a twist into this, Mr Putin could reasonably be considered a successful business person......40 odd billion successful. Perhaps we could have a look at whether or not he fits the criteria. (Yes in Green and No in Red)

HONESTY: SELF-CONTROL: DEDICATION: LOYALTY: PRIDE: PATIENCE: ACCOUNTABILITY: INITIATIVE: DIGNITY: SELF RESPECT: DISCIPLINE: PERSEVERANCE: HUMILITY: COURTESY:: RESPONSIBILITY: INDOMINITABLE SPIRIT: LEADERSHIP:

OTOH Mr Bush could also be considered a successful business person, so how does he stack up?
HONESTY: SELF-CONTROL: DEDICATION: LOYALTY: PRIDE: PATIENCE: ACCOUNTABILITY: INITIATIVE: DIGNITY: SELF RESPECT: DISCIPLINE: PERSEVERANCE: HUMILITY: COURTESY:: RESPONSIBILITY: INDOMINITABLE SPIRIT: LEADERSHIP:

BTW, I don't think either of them would have a great problem attracting a younger partner if they so chose, therefore I suspect the younger woman (Generally speaking) who is attracted to the older man will first consider much more approximate suitability in general and then consider position/scope/power with the individual qualities running very much third. This is not to suggest that some younger women who have chosen older partners have not considered the quality aspect first and foremost but frankly I doubt that is a general trend.

Where is the summary?

Gator the below was where I ended concentrated reading. I think it tells us what we already know.
MEAN AGE AT FIRST MARRIAGE; TOTAL, weighted average
Ukraine (1982-2000): 21, * years old FEMALE/ 24,* years old MALE
Tajikistan (1982-1995): 21,* years old FEMALE /24,* years old MALE
Italy (1982-2000): 26,* years old female/ 29,* years old male
Germany (1982-2001): 26,* YO female/ 29,* YO male
Kazachstan ( 1982-1999): 23,* YO female /25,* YO male
Russia (1982-2000): 21,* YO female/ 24,* YO male
Portugal (1982-2001): 25,* YO female /27,* YO male
Sweden (1982-2001): 29,* YO female / 31,* YO male

Now it looks like you've (on average) 2-4 years age gap, and it spans across "latin" countries such as Italy or Portugal, nordic countries such as Sweden, poor FSu countries such as Tajikistan, then Russia and Ukraine.
There is a few of us who have bucked the norm and now have an age gap marriage. Who knows, we may all ultimately have our butts handed to us and we may not. All I know for sure is that it is a lot of fun being in the process of discovering the answer to that question. :D

None of that matters much, the agencies will still sell the nonsense and the suckers will still buy it. A successful dealer once advised me "You need to have (Products or goods) what everyone wants in order to be a successful dealer". Much the same with information IMO. If you have what the majority want to hear, it is easy enough to sell.

I/O
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 08:25:01 PM by I/O »

Offline kievstar

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2008, 06:11:25 AM »
northlakeco,

To answer your question.  These women (26-30 age I know) tend to be attracted to a man who has money (no matter how he gets it).  Just like a lot of men fall in love with a beautiful woman.  Money is considered to be a success In Ukraine for these women, however, more educated people know having money does not mean being successful or smart.  But money provides security.  You have to remember what these 26-30 year old women I am talking about have been through.  1980 -2005 were not good times in Ukraine and reason a lot of guys found wives very easy as many desperate women looking for security.  Now women in big cities have many options as economy has improved and Kiev women are now picky on men.  Getting more like America in Kiev.  If you want an age gap, these men tend to have money.  A lot of men in USA marry younger American women and usually have money. 

However, these girls I know will go out with men making less money but there just doing it for fun (i.e. this board calls them professional daters, these women just laugh).  By the way these 4 girls are on Elena Models and anybody with a brain can see that they have said in there profile they want a financially secure man.  However, many men come to see these girls with low six figure incomes and wonder why they get 1-2 dates than that is it. 

I know these girls through my ex girlfriend.  Very nice women and would make good wives for the man there looking for.  You would be surprised on how many men lie to these girls about how much money they have.  Lying about income is not good to start a relationship.  Plus never brag about money to impress a russian woman.

Offline vwrw

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 08:38:06 AM »
... more educated people know having money does not mean being successful or smart. .

Sure, in nowadays extremely competitive environment only stupid losers are capable of earning and having money! … LOL…
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:54:17 AM by vwrw »
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Offline Turboguy

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Re: Huge age gaps myth debunked - A few points of view
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 09:33:03 AM »
I guess we all for our opinions based in part on our experience and in part by our ideas about the realities of the world.   I see ideas in age gap threads that seem very logical to me and I see some ideas that seem downright silly to me.  I have to wonder sometimes if some of the ideas that are expressed are from anyone who has any real experience in an age gap relationship.

Steve's post in this thread said something about a 27 year old man could not marry a woman 10 years younger.   Well he can actually but there is no reason he can't marry a woman 9 years younger is there or don't 18 year old women get married?   Actually even in America I think you will find that 27 year old men marrying 17 year old women is fairly common. 

I have to agree strongly with VWRW's post about what Lily had said at one time.   I will say that I don't believe a rich or successful man does not need ALL of the qualities that she listed.  It is quite easy for someone who is a zero on the honesty scale to be quite rich.   I do think the essence of what she was saying is a very good point.    I have heard it said that both power and money are an aphrodisiac.  I agree with VWRW it is not always the money.  I think successful men often have a lot of self confidence, are decisive in what they do and very focused and those qualities can be very attractive for a woman. 

I will agree with Kievstar that lying about money is a sure course for disaster.   Bragging about money may attract a few women but it will totally turn off far more of them.   I can't say I agree with the rest of that post as much.  Yes, there is a small segment of the young and often very attractive women who are totally out for a rich husband and unwilling to settle for anything else.  Usually you can pick them out from the profile easy enough.  As far as saying that all or even the majority of women who will accept an age gap relationship are out for a rich husband and unwilling to accept even a low 6 figure income I don't buy it.   I have been in some age gap relationships both with American women and women from the FSU and I just never saw that.   The women I met were just looking for a good husband and the age difference did not bother them.   Yes, I ran into some scammers and serial daters but they were among the older women as much as the younger ones.  I saw no correlation between financial motivation and acceptance of an age difference.   Most all the women in the FSU hunting for a husband want finacial security regardless of their age or the age of the man they hope to find. 


 

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