Another Dead Journalist

[Ronnie]

And they all knew you were going to say that! 

   Like the joke about the inmates who got tired of telling the same jokes over and over again so to to save time just numbered them and called out the joke number, maybe BC could just number his anti-USA  talking points and save himself from carpal tunnel. 

We love you BC.

[Shadow]

The secret police has changed names many times but today's incarnation still celebrate December 20th, the day Lenin set up the Cheka.  Putin and his FSB buddies love to call themselves chekists.  So no, the Red Terror is not outside the FSB's existence but in name only.

Not prominent today? How much more prominent can you get than today's total and unfettered control over the country, both in government and in business.  Putin has filled over two thousand positions in government and business with his KGB gang members.

Ronnie, you can try to divert the subject, but I asked you to provide backup for your statement that the practice of abducting someone well-known in plain sight and shooting them is something common for the FSB.
Either provide backup or stop proclaiming FSB works like shown in American B-movies.

[Misha]

Ronnie, you can try to divert the subject, but I asked you to provide backup for your statement that the practice of abducting someone well-known in plain sight and shooting them is something common for the FSB.
Either provide backup or stop proclaiming FSB works like shown in American B-movies.

Well, the ones doing the shooting in this case were the "militia" (police officers). In the Caucusus, extrajudicial executions are common. Here is what Human Rights Watch reports:

"Abduction-style detentions and killings in Ingushetia often happen during 'special operations,' which resemble the pattern of abusive sweep operations and targeted raids seen in earlier years in Chechnya. Groups of armed personnel arrive in a given area, often wearing masks. They do not provide the residents with any explanation for the operation, force entry into homes, beat some of the residents, and damage their property. 
 
Particularly disturbing are the frequent extrajudicial executions. The Human Rights Watch report documents eight such cases. The youngest victim, six-year-old Rakhim Amriev, was killed in a raid on his parents’ home, where security forces believed an alleged insurgent was hiding. An investigation into his death is ongoing. That investigation is exceptional, however, and can be explained only by Amriev’s young age, which precluded the authorities from alleging his involvement in insurgency. In the majority of extrajudicial executions, insurgency-related charges are filed against the victims posthumously, and their killings are never investigated. "

(source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/06/24/russia19194.htm)

This is what the Christian Science Monitor writes:

"The Moscow-based international human rights group Memorial, nominated for this year's Nobel Peace Prize, says at least 400 people disappeared without a trace in Ingushetia between 2002 and 2006, and the pace of repression has since accelerated. 'How can we talk about human rights if security forces can burst into private houses at night and seize peaceful people, and can stop a person at night on a street to beat or even to kill without ever presenting any identification document or without presenting any charges?' says Memorial activist Usam Baisayev, reached by phone in Nazran, Ingushetia."

(Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0914/p06s01-woeu.html.

There have been reports of prisoners being taken by the police out to the countryside, killed and their bodies blown up. The scattered remains would be eaten by birds and animals leaving behind few traces.

Ingushetia is rising up in large part to Russian state violence: while Chechnya wanted its independence, but Ingushetia was quite happy to be in Russia. The brutality of the Russian forces (military, interior forces, militia) is leading to an uprising, with some Ingushetians turning to extremism and violence in turn.

[Shadow]

Mischa, if you read the news story, the last part tells of another Magomed Evloev, who was a terrorist and lead operations where his accomplices wore militia uniforms. The situation in those republics can be very well compared to Iraq and Afghanistan with Muslim extremists fighting the police and military forces.
 
In this case it were not the standard militia, but special governemnt forces who made the arrest.
Read the reports again and try to picture yourself a situation where followers of someone just arrested are stopping police cars and dragging out the officers, attempting to free their friend. Could you picture such a scene in Canada or in the US ?

[Misha]

In this case it were not the standard militia, but special governemnt forces who made the arrest.
Read the reports again and try to picture yourself a situation where followers of someone just arrested are stopping police cars and dragging out the officers, attempting to free their friend. Could you picture such a scene in Canada or in the US ?

Yes, if Canada was not democratic and did not respect the rights of its citizens. It is a question of violence begetting violence. Russia supports a local satrap in Ingushetia who brutalizes his population and leaves the population with no way of removing him from power. As a consequence, the only avenue of political resistance becomes the Islamic extremists. The Russian State is squarely to blame IMHO for the growing violence in Ingushetia and elsewhere in the Caucusus region or Russia.

[Shadow]

Yes, if Canada was not democratic and did not respect the rights of its citizens. It is a question of violence begetting violence. Russia supports a local satrap in Ingushetia who brutalizes his population and leaves the population with no way of removing him from power. As a consequence, the only avenue of political resistance becomes the Islamic extremists. The Russian State is squarely to blame IMHO for the growing violence in Ingushetia and elsewhere in the Caucusus region or Russia.

Look to Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kashmir.....
I doubt the Russian state is to blame for what happens there and is very comparable to life in these republics.
Its not the Russians that cause trouble.

[Misha]

Look to Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Ethiopia, Kashmir.....
I doubt the Russian state is to blame for what happens there and is very comparable to life in these republics.
Its not the Russians that cause trouble.

No, but I can look at a country such as Egypt and demonstrate how the actions of the state is facilitating recruitment of the extremists. And, if Russia is not to blame, who exactly is at fault in Russian territories such as Ingushetia? So far, Shadow, I have concluded that you will never admit that Russia can never do any wrong.

[Shadow]

No, but I can look at a country such as Egypt and demonstrate how the actions of the state is facilitating recruitment of the extremists. And, if Russia is not to blame, who exactly is at fault in Russian territories such as Ingushetia? So far, Shadow, I have concluded that you will never admit that Russia can never do any wrong.

Misha I do not think that Russia can not do any wrong, and I see as much or even more things that could be done better.
However the trend of blaming Russia as doing wrong in every aspect is something that I see here.

It strikes me how the article about the current chaos in Ukraine does not seem to collect attention, yet if Medvedev would send the parliament home because of a vote limiting his powers (yes I know the reverse seems more probable) it would be used as example of Russia as failing democracy.

Russia has a history of being a country that is hard to rule, and where local rulers have almost unlimited powers to rule over their people. While we are in the 21st century where people have access to incredible amounts of (mis)information, the people in most parts of Russia have little interest in politics or who is ruling their area this year. They never had, and had to endure several groups of people who introduced themselves as leaders and took or destroyed their possessions.

The areas we are talking about here are not like the developed Western countries, they are wild and fierce territories. If you have the impression that you can change the habits of people there, I wish you good luck in trying. Please take a plane and preach values of democracy and human rights. Where I see many people failing is that they actually have been given such belief in those systems, that they are awestruck by finding that about 70% of the world population has never heard of these principles, and cares even less about them.

Unfortunately it is only newsworthy if something happens in a country that is put in a bad light. What happens elsewhere is conveniently forgotten.
I have in putting the story never told that Russia or the local powers were right, as we do not know the reason for arrest and if the death was planned or an accident. I do not see the way in which the special forces operate there as good, just as I am highly critical of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, or Israeli operations in the Gaza area.
However all have as cover the fight against extremist terrorist, and all use similar methods.

[Misha]

The areas we are talking about here are not like the developed Western countries, they are wild and fierce territories. If you have the impression that you can change the habits of people there, I wish you good luck in trying. Please take a plane and preach values of democracy and human rights. Where I see many people failing is that they actually have been given such belief in those systems, that they are awestruck by finding that about 70% of the world population has never heard of these principles, and cares even less about them.

Ah, so Russia is carrying the burden of trying to civilize them. That is how imperial powers invariably justify their actions.

[Ronnie]

Russia has a history of being a country that is hard to rule,

Shadow,
This is not the first time you've made this statement.  I would only suggest to you that no people are easy to rule.  No people should be ruled.   The people are the sovereigns and certain ones of them volunteer and are approved to perform certain duties on behalf of the people.   They are always answerable to the people.

This is something that is often forgotten in every country, even the United States where the idea of the people being the actual sovereigns has been running for 230 years now. 

You have asked me to document the FSB's open brutality.  I will remind you again of Anna Politkovskaya, Paul Klebnikov, and Alexander Litvinenko were murdered by the FSB.  Certainly they were never convicted or proven because they investigate their own crimes.  Everyone knows however, that the FSB was involved in the attempted poisoning of Viktor Yushenko.  Various exotic poisons are the calling card of the FSB as is the Makarov semi-automatic pistol that was tossed on Politkovskaya's body.

The FSB was caught red-handed bombing innocent people with Hexagen bombs in September 1999, then took over the investigation of itself after two of the Duma members who sat on the investigatory committee looking into FSB's involvement in the bombings were assassinated.

You seem to want to believe that FSB is not the old KGB, Cheka, etc.  Understand that the KGB set up the fifth Directorate under Andropov.  The purpose of the 5th Directorate was to suppress dissent.  Putin was an officer in the 5th Directorate.  Suppression of dissent, therefore was his life's work.  Now he has added the accumulation of personal power and wealth to his mission.

Russians are not "easy to rule" as you put it, precisely because they are brave and intelligent people.  Yet they are helpless against brutal rulers who control the military and police.

America's founding fathers knew well how tyrants behave and believed that tyranny rears it's ugly head frequently.  Our constitutional right to bear arms was designed as a protection against such tyranny but frankly, an opposition press has proven to be the best weapon.  Russians without their opposition press and freedom to dissent ill-equipped to combat Putin's tyranny.

[Shadow]

Ronnie,

I asked you to document open brutality of the FSB that was comparable to this case.
The cases you are mentioning all have in common that the FSB operatives were never seen, let alone caught. While there is, due to these circumstances, no direct proof of the FSB being involved, one can attribute the death by the modus operandi.
However the FSB usually does not commit acts in a way that it is visible who is doing the job, and that is a very distinct difference.

The FSB has evolved from its predecessors, there is no doubt. However as times change, so does the working method.

All people are ruled, even those in the USA. It can be under the name of democracy, however the only country where there is a true democratic system is Switzerland. In any other country there has been created a system of 'wise men' who choose puppets. They form the ruling elite, under the name of knowing what is best for the people.
If you want to disagree, I challenge you to create a political party that will challenge both Republicans and Democrats in your country.

But while being ruled, the people do have a say in decision making. Just like the people's assembly would be asked to make a verdict in the ancient times in Russia, long before the USA existed.

As for the right to bear arms, Russia and most of Europe are doing well without it. Only the Americans cherish weapons as a token of freedom.

[Ronnie]

As for the right to bear arms, Russia and most of Europe are doing well without it. Only the Americans cherish weapons as a token of freedom.

Interesting observation Shadow.  But utterly incorrect!
Russia is not doing well - in case you didn't notice.  Russians are moving backwards to autocracy and a brutal one at that.

Interesting you mention Switzerland.  The photo below is precisely the reason Hitler did not invade that small country.  A Karabiner model 1931 in every Swiss home made Holland look much more attractive.

[Shadow]

Interesting observation Shadow.  But utterly incorrect!
Russia is not doing well - in case you didn't notice.  Russians are moving backwards to autocracy and a brutal one at that.

Interesting you mention Switzerland.  The photo below is precisely the reason Hitler did not invade that small country.  A Karabiner model 1931 in every Swiss home made Holland look much more attractive.

Ronnie I guess that Switzerland having a very scattered population (hard to overpower by air strikes) and is mostly mountains (hard to conquer by tanks) had nothing to do with it. Also the numerous Nazi-bank accounts in Switzerland might have helped more than the weapons.
As for Russia, we are already known to have different opinions. Russia has not moved her government style since the election of Yeltsin.
If you failed to notice, do not blame it on others. However in the eyes of the majority of the Russian population, Russia is doing well by this style.
As you are in favour of the souvereignity of people, and democratic principles, you should not go against the majority of Russians in your opinion. That we both may share concerns about how the opinion is created, is not of value when put against democratic principles.